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tamasaburo
USA
136 Posts |
 Posted - Feb 09 2012 : 10:48:11 AM
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This reminds me of a quote from The Simpsons: tour-guide: "and here we see Mr. Edison's laboratory, where he created many brilliant inventions." Homer: "Oh yeah, if he's so smart, then how come he's dead?"
In seriousness, though, this conversation does highlight to me some of the seeming contradictions in the various notions of enlightenment. On one end of the spectrum are people who view enlightenment as just being a gracious and grateful acceptance of what is but nothing "out of the ordinary" (not that that's at all easy, mind you); on the other is the idea that if you're not basically omnipotent and omniscient they you're not enlightened. Maybe there is no contradiction. Maybe people like Ramakrishna could have sustained their bodies forever if they had wanted to, but chose to let them follow the natural course. I, for one, am rather skeptical that even someone like Ramakrishna really could have held onto the same physical body forever even if he wanted to, though I could be underestimating the power of Yoga... certainly all my practice has just made me into a happier, healthier human being, but hasn't remotely given me any super powers (though obviously one can always say I haven't practice hard or long enough). Or maybe the contradiction is resolved in the idea that to be "super-normal" makes you "supernormal," as I believe Yogani once put it.
I've kind of resigned myself to the fact that I won't really understand what exactly enlightenment means until I experience it myself (and perhaps if I really understood what it meant then that understanding would itself mean I was already enlightened). And as Yogani says, the spiritual path is full of apparent contradictions that somehow aren't, so I guess there's nothing to do but keep meditating and hope the answers come. |
Edited by - tamasaburo on Feb 09 2012 11:02:41 AM |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Feb 09 2012 : 4:28:57 PM
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I completely agree. By the way, Edison didn't invent the light bulb. But he had the perseverance to try hundreds of different light bulbs until he found one that was reliable. Similar to yoga, perseverance is important, not some brilliant revelation conceived in a minute.
Here's another way to look at it:
Let's say you are a yogi who has all those siddhis including immortality. What do you do with your life? Do you think it would be wise to tell people you are immortal and have powers?
Can you imagine the kind of people lining up at your door to bother you, each having some bogus story of why you need to spend your time with them?
Or would you add intelligence to those siddhis, and hide all of them so you could live the life you choose instead of being controlled by idiots? |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Feb 10 2012 : 03:02:43 AM
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To see a world in a grain of sand,
And a heaven in a wild flower,
Hold infinity in the palm of your hand,
And eternity in an hour.
William Blake put it beautifully. Once the concept of death and enlightenment is viewed from a different perspective then the soul is free. Our soul is eternal light. |
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Radharani
USA
843 Posts |
Posted - Feb 10 2012 : 03:31:27 AM
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| why are we supposed to care about siddhis? and why be attached to keeping this body alive indefinitely? |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2516 Posts |
Posted - Feb 10 2012 : 03:43:15 AM
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| the enlightened is not intrested in siddhis nor in keeping the body alive... |
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showup
USA
47 Posts |
Posted - Feb 10 2012 : 09:40:41 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by maheswari
the enlightened is not intrested in siddhis nor in keeping the body alive...
Absolutely correct.
quote:
Originally posted by Radharani
why are we supposed to care about siddhis? and why be attached to keeping this body alive indefinitely?
Even if you have all the siddhies, if you die once, there is no guarantee that you will not born again, because preventing birth (incarnation) is not in our hand. It is controlled by karma and other higher powers. If you don't die, you will never born again. It is for guarantee, because your soul is still attached to your body and is in samadhi state. It means you have successfully exited incarnation. You will never born again; no incarnation whatsoever; no more misery or pain of any kind.
Being in jeevasamadhi is being your atman mixed with parama-atman like milk mixes with milk and oil mixes with oil without any difference, a highly pleasureful state forever. |
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harsharan000
Spain
59 Posts |
Posted - Feb 10 2012 : 10:05:59 AM
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Who says you can not prevent birth or reincarnation? You can...up to an extent....it is not something instant....it depends on your attitude, your behaviour, your truthfulness, your receptivity....all these combined makes you fit one day....but to reach there...you have to make a start with all this. It is like the rain, when it takes place ...it is not just magic...some conditions have to ocurr before the clouds can be formed and pour rain.
There can be many reflections of a Sun in different places and at diffrent surfaces...and they are all false as we can surely know...but after all...they are due to the one genuine Sun.
So, if one is not that fortunate to experience the warmth of a Genuine one, that does not mean the real Sun does not exist.
Please let us be more broadminded.
All these ridhis siddhis, are nothing but barriers in the evolution of total enlightment!
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Edited by - harsharan000 on Feb 10 2012 10:15:56 AM |
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AYPforum
351 Posts |
Posted - Feb 10 2012 : 10:16:22 AM
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| Moderator note: Topic moved for better placement |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Feb 10 2012 : 10:33:28 AM
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What are you trying to tell me? That I can dodge bullets ?
No Neo. I'm trying to tell you that when you are ready you won't have to.
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harsharan000
Spain
59 Posts |
Posted - Feb 10 2012 : 4:43:46 PM
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It seems, some are fascinated by ridhhis siddhis...and thus make that objective as goal, and just beacuse having read some books and memorized them...does not mean, one should boost out the ego within; feeling superior to the fellow members giving their opinion on this website....
Instead of teaching the alphabet of yoga...better practice what you say, and see the difference then.
Enlightment starts with humility. |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Feb 10 2012 : 6:17:23 PM
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"no more misery or pain of any kind."
I'm not sure if i would like that. Misery and pain gives flavor to no misery and pain. Ever had a long time off work and notice that the weekend is no longer delicious? Ever notice that food is wonderful when you're hungry?
And Absence makes the heart grow fonder. For me, climbing out from the bottom of a pit is exhilarating.
Struggle is what makes the body fit, and the mind sharp.
Of course, there are many people who suffer greatly, but that is where meditation comes in.
The most horrible life you could imagine could benefit from meditation. |
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Radharani
USA
843 Posts |
Posted - Feb 10 2012 : 7:03:44 PM
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| If somebody really desires siddhis and to keep the mortal body alive forever, go for it; far be it from me to say they can't. But, being attached to escaping misery and pain is not "enlightenment." Only the ego-self suffers. Lord Krishna says in the Gita: "He who knows me as his own divine Self breaks through the belief that he is the body and is not reborn as a separate creature. Such a one, Arjuna, is united with me. Delivered from selfish attachment, fear, and anger, filled with me, surrendering themselves to me, purified in the fire of my being, many have reached the state of unity in me." (Ch. 4:9-10) |
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showup
USA
47 Posts |
Posted - Feb 12 2012 : 08:34:16 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
"no more misery or pain of any kind."
I'm not sure if i would like that. Misery and pain gives flavor to no misery and pain.
I totally agree this. However, no one would like to be in misery and pain for this reason. It is the natural tendency of each and every creature to avoid pain. It is for the same reason we try to exit the incarnation.
quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
Of course, there are many people who suffer greatly, but that is where meditation comes in. The most horrible life you could imagine could benefit from meditation.
Very correctly said.
@Radharani
Thanks for the quote. If we are sucessfully able to seperate our atman from maya that is the true liberation. Such sucessfull person will already have all the siddhies irrespective of (s)he want it or not. Siddhies are just the byproducts on the way not the goal. |
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harsharan000
Spain
59 Posts |
Posted - Feb 12 2012 : 11:27:33 AM
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| But we should be careful of these byproducts...just like thieves and dacoits on the highway...if you are not beware of them, they may leave you naked on the roadside, after robbing you. They are not even to be looked at...rather speed our car and try to reach as soon as possible our goal... |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Feb 12 2012 : 11:37:55 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by harsharan000
But we should be careful of these byproducts...just like thieves and dacoits on the highway...if you are not beware of them, they may leave you naked on the roadside, after robbing you. They are not even to be looked at...rather speed our car and try to reach as soon as possible our goal...
Sometimes you need to be robbed so you know not to stop next time. |
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harsharan000
Spain
59 Posts |
Posted - Feb 12 2012 : 11:53:24 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by karl
quote:
Originally posted by harsharan000
But we should be careful of these byproducts...just like thieves and dacoits on the highway...if you are not beware of them, they may leave you naked on the roadside, after robbing you. They are not even to be looked at...rather speed our car and try to reach as soon as possible our goal...
Sometimes you need to be robbed so you know not to stop next time.
But then again, what was that inner Guru doing at that very moment, was he distracted, to not advise you at the right time to be careful....
We are very cunning...when it is in our interest, we say the guru is in you, and when not, we say we need to do it....the thing is, if we had that real Guru in us, everything would be perfect...or is not perfection we are looking for? |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Feb 12 2012 : 12:25:23 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by harsharan000
quote:
Originally posted by karl
quote:
Originally posted by harsharan000
But we should be careful of these byproducts...just like thieves and dacoits on the highway...if you are not beware of them, they may leave you naked on the roadside, after robbing you. They are not even to be looked at...rather speed our car and try to reach as soon as possible our goal...
Sometimes you need to be robbed so you know not to stop next time.
But then again, what was that inner Guru doing at that very moment, was he distracted, to not advise you at the right time to be careful....
We are very cunning...when it is in our interest, we say the guru is in you, and when not, we say we need to do it....the thing is, if we had that real Guru in us, everything would be perfect...or is not perfection we are looking for?
The inner Guru is never distracted, our nature is our distraction. The inner Guru provides a lesson, we take heed, or it is repeated. If we don't get it the first time then maybe on the two hundred millionth  sometimes our nature tries to provide an alternative proof to distract us away from the lesson. Push, pull, push pull, until we are fed up of it and seek the way. It is timeless and divine. |
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harsharan000
Spain
59 Posts |
Posted - Feb 12 2012 : 12:51:18 PM
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The thing is, we can say guru is in us, if we have a permanent communion with him, and we have worked hard to reach that two hundred and one millionth time...otherwise it is all empty slogans, we are cheating ourselves, we are trapped in self deception.
We say God is omnipresent, but in spite of that, the cheater cheats, the thief robs, the assassin kills...and so on, no crime is stopped.
In the same way, we say Guru is inside you there very lightly, but do no attempts to have a permanent communion with him. That means we speak just like parrots, but inside, where is he? do we know the way? how shall we know he is the guru? any spiritual entity can come in front of us, disguised as a guru, according to our way of thinking.... so it is here I wanted to reach, that we should not so lightly say, the guru is in you....we are only fooling us...we say he is inside us...when we have no idea of the depth and meaning of what we are saying
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Edited by - harsharan000 on Feb 12 2012 12:55:19 PM |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Feb 12 2012 : 1:03:02 PM
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From a seed the tree will grow. Feed the seed with water of desire and it will grow. The path may not be straight, many obstacles will arise, but the tree will continue to grow.
The inner Guru is greater, it is everything, it is our true nature, it is Brahman.
This is why it is only necessary to have the desire, the rest will be added unto. The product of desire for some is practices such as meditation. It is worship. A giving of something, a symbol, a sacrifice. |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Feb 12 2012 : 1:04:57 PM
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"the guru is in you" does not mean that you are aware of him. You have to find him, first by finding silence inside. Once you have found him, it is easy to test if he is guiding you correctly.
Your true inner guru always wants what is best for you. This doesn't mean you are perfect, and doesn't mean you won't make mistakes. Often mistakes are the best teachers.
Since the inner guru always guides you perfectly, it is easy to set up tests to make sure he wants what is best for you. Just look at what happens when you follow him. |
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harsharan000
Spain
59 Posts |
Posted - Feb 12 2012 : 1:18:34 PM
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| Can you please tell me , how to recognize him? How can one be sure, one is not cheated, by any evil entity, who can disguise and present itself as a guru, there must be some remarks, from so many of you, who are lucky to have that much knowledge, because the inner guru according to Karl is Brahman, but then that Brahman has to be same for everybody who sees him, it can not be a hallucination that each one describes it in its own way.... |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Feb 12 2012 : 1:30:43 PM
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Everyone sees the guru differently. I don't ever see, or talk to him. I ask questions and let it go in silence, then he gives me the answers as an event that happens in front of my eyes. You will have to make up your own tests to know if he is real. The first thing to try, is ask him how you can know if he is real!
He must answer this with a test that can not be faked. Mine did. But you must find your own test. |
Edited by - Etherfish on Feb 12 2012 1:32:39 PM |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Feb 12 2012 : 2:36:48 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by harsharan000
Can you please tell me , how to recognize him? How can one be sure, one is not cheated, by any evil entity, who can disguise and present itself as a guru, there must be some remarks, from so many of you, who are lucky to have that much knowledge, because the inner guru according to Karl is Brahman, but then that Brahman has to be same for everybody who sees him, it can not be a hallucination that each one describes it in its own way....
There is no absolute answer to your question. This is because you are making a judgement. Good and evil are perceptual judgements based on Ego. There must be one to know GoodvandvEvil. Your mind can lead you down blind alleys, but your true nature knows the mind for what it is. The mind cannot know Brahman directly, so everyone will create an understanding of it as a concept. Brahman is that which has no name. Mind comes from Brahman.
The mind needs to be lead, have faith, do the practises, that is all that is needed, it is already in motion. Good and bad Gurus will appear when needed and according to your nature. Learn the lessons, move on. |
Edited by - karl on Feb 12 2012 2:47:00 PM |
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harsharan000
Spain
59 Posts |
Posted - Feb 13 2012 : 05:32:57 AM
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There is not much to be learnt....because only vague answers are given....and this is just because of self deceptive ego...only superficial and words empty of contents...just because each one has graved very deep their own connclusions...so if anything though reasonable and logical is presented, is taken lighty and answered with sarcasm.
Those who are heavy weights in this website, are the ones who have, sorry to say the ego inflated, are ready to say others there are many paths, but then they stick to their own strong based ideas, and do not accept diversity...
If anything is written in adifferent way, than your similar ideas, you just consciously or unconsciously push out that person outside...
your path is intelectual worked out in mental speheres, though discipline is there...while the path I am talking about is pure spiritual, worked out through devotion... so that is why, we have these clashes... but anyhow...best of luck... as I said the power and effects of maya is very much impressed on almost everybody, that the truths presented in a simple and direct manner is taken as hurting....but remember it is the ego which is hurt...my intention was just to share with you all what i have learnt from the saints, taking you all as brothers and sisters...anyhow may God bless you... |
Edited by - harsharan000 on Feb 13 2012 10:36:52 AM |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Feb 13 2012 : 11:08:14 AM
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We all know we have deceptive Egos and that is why we need to do the practices.
It would be churlish to accept everyone's words without challenge, or we would still believe the earth was flat.
We have many strong and active disagreements between long term members and long may that be the case. When we all start agreeing there is little point in having a forum.
I would personally appreciate it if you would continue contributing, this discussion was lively, positive and interesting. The intention is to have as much diversity as possible, but please understand that ideas and philosophies will never be taken at face value. That is the key reason a forum exists, to explore, to encourage lively, constructive debate and to open the mind.
Much love.
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Enlightenment and Death?
