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tamasaburo
USA
136 Posts |
 Posted - Jan 27 2012 : 07:36:16 AM
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I have heard a number of Youtube gurus (I won't mention names to avoid controversy related to specific people), mention the idea that for the enlightened being to remain alive is a challenge--that for people like Ramakrishna and Yogananda to keep their spirits attached to their bodies was actually a challenge that required some method, and that for most people who become enlightened, the moment of enlightenment corresponds to the moment of death.
I know this is rather esoteric and something I don't need to be worried about at this particular stage in my development--certainly, I'm not afraid I'll become enlightened and accidentally die when I sit down to meditate some day! (On the contrary, I only fear my progress is too slow, lately...) But still I am curious if anyone knows anything about this concept and whether it is anything one must eventually concern oneself with? |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Jan 27 2012 : 08:11:41 AM
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| Enlightenment is a gradual process that happens over a long period of time. Enlightened people become more and more aware of what is happening to them. It is not a one-time, sudden event that ends. Sometimes you may feel that what has happened is so huge that you are done, but later there is more. |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Jan 27 2012 : 08:13:36 AM
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 well, it takes quite a bit of work for the unenlightened to stay attached to their bodies. Eat, drink, sleep, shelter, health, accident, growing old all are part of survival.
In essence is there really a difference one might ask?
The enlightened are not afraid to lose their bodies might be more accurate, however, everything I have read points to Gurus having a love of life, many living through the gradual wearing down of the body until physical death.
Now, from an enlightened persons perspective, they often are heard claiming they are none existent. That it really is only the unenlightened who have the perception of a living Guru ( that is not unlike the tale of the kings new clothes it should be said).
However, if you get to the stage of self inquiry you can notice that the question becomes irrelevant in the context of 'self' ( if you dont then its difficult to explain, but is equivalent to a vacuum cleaner disappearing in its own dust bag)That tties in nicely with the previous idea of the unenlightened perception of the Guru as being distorted and entirely illusional.
So, you see, from the enlightened perspective the question and answer cannot exist, from an unenlightened perspective the words and actions of an enlightened person are an illusion.
It's the unenlightened that has the illusion, the enlightened has no sense of it. |
Edited by - karl on Jan 27 2012 08:20:51 AM |
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tamasaburo
USA
136 Posts |
Posted - Jan 27 2012 : 08:29:47 AM
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According to my own experience, it does seem much more like a gradual unfolding of awareness than any one sudden event. But there are all these schools (especially in Chinese and Japanese Buddhism) that claim enlightenment can (or even must) come suddenly, like a thunderclap. Are these reconcilable? I guess maybe there are lots of mini "satoris" on the way to enlightenment?
A qigong teacher also once told me to be careful if I ever had an out-of-body experience (only happened once--I fell asleep meditating and had a sense of floating above my body and looking at it from the outside), that I should touch my body, and that there is a small risk of "not returning to it" otherwise. In other words, is there ever any danger of "floating off" while meditating too deeply? Again, kind of a theoretical question for me at this point, just wondering. |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Jan 27 2012 : 08:56:47 AM
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| Just goes to show all the superstition surrounding things that are not well known. I have had lots of OBE's, never touched my body, always came back. Many started as meditation. |
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Mikananda
USA
90 Posts |
Posted - Jan 27 2012 : 10:05:40 AM
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| Blind leading the blind |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2516 Posts |
Posted - Jan 27 2012 : 1:32:38 PM
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quote:
equivalent to a vacuum cleaner disappearing in its own dust bag
nice comparison! |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Jan 27 2012 : 9:20:53 PM
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| I haven't seen it, but people who do OBE's a lot say there is a silver cord that connects you to your body as long as you are alive, and nothing can break it. |
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Radharani
USA
843 Posts |
Posted - Jan 28 2012 : 02:42:23 AM
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| so-called "enlightenment" can happen suddenly or gradually over time. it is different for everyone. and as long as we are in this body the process continues to unfold. i think what is being referred to here is "ego death." you have no particular attachment to being alive. however, the physical body carries on as usual unless you stop feeding it or you consciously decide to leave it. some "enlightened" beings need to have people around them reminding them to eat. as for OBEs, i wouldn't worry about it. you will nearly always return to the body whether you want to or not. |
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vijikr
United Arab Emirates
413 Posts |
Posted - Jan 28 2012 : 06:05:07 AM
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I agree with Radharani as the ego death makes one feel it likewise.As normal people we have attachments but with enlightement they dont have any attachment including their body so they have no fear of death(they live the life conciously in the present moment) and OBE is something which will happen naturally...it even happens to each and everyone of us at night while sleeping but there its happens without the our concious but with meditation and for enlightened persons it will happen concicously.
There is nothing to fear of not returning to the body as we are connected by the silver cord which will only break when its our time to die otherwise one will return automatically to our physical body.
Otherwise there is no need to worry about not returning to the body. I personally feel death will come to anyone when it is the right time for them otherwise there is no need to worry about it.
Thats my 2cents!
Love n Light
Viji |
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tamasaburo
USA
136 Posts |
Posted - Jan 28 2012 : 08:33:27 AM
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Well, I guess part of what gives rise to the question is the fact that some well-known gurus (Vivekananda, Yogananda) seem to have died fairly young and suddenly, which seems rather counter to the whole notion that Yoga enhances your health and longevity (not that I doubt it does, but you get my point). Now, in both cases it doesn't seem they died in a way that was unexpected to THEM, so maybe it's just the enlightened feel less need to cling to life rather than that they just fly off accidentally.
But anyway, why not stick around a little longer and teach more people if it was under their control? And if their enlightenment couldn't give them enough health to live even a normal lifespan... well, that seems kinna weird. Not that I expect the enlightened person to be immortal, but at least not unhealthy. |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Jan 28 2012 : 09:05:12 AM
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It is only your perception that sees a separate enlightened person born and die. An enlightened person has no perception of that.
You see the enlightened person as separate to you, to the enlightened there are no differences or separations.
You witnessed their death, or read about their deaths. They died in your perception. They died at the perfect time, exactly in a perfect unfolding of the universe.
It is difficult for anyone not enlightened to understand this except as an intellectual exercise.
I try and think of it like leaves on a tree, all striving for survival, to process the most light. Each leaf sees the next as an individual in competition. The leaves do not know they exist as part of a whole organism, the leaves only 'are' because the tree "is" . The tree cannot survive without the leaves, the leaves cannot survive without each other. When one leaf dies, it is because it is the right time for it to die, yet the tree continues.
The tree sees itself as separate, but does not know it is also part of a larger organism, which is the Earth. It contributes to its own survival. Ultimately everything is one. Further than the universe stretches.
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Mikananda
USA
90 Posts |
Posted - Jan 28 2012 : 10:11:25 AM
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| Do not think in this way, that one who has obtained the highest, most fulfilled, awaken mind sees things as non-existent and apart from life. |
Edited by - Mikananda on Jan 29 2012 9:58:17 PM |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Jan 28 2012 : 12:10:31 PM
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If you think that longevity is the most important thing, then yoga can help with it. However, it is said that many advanced yogis have siddhis involving longevity, life and death. And one of those is the ability to choose their time of death.
This is a paradox, because if you are choosing your death, doesn't it mean you might have lived longer? People surrounding you are bound to think you should have lived longer.
If you have this siddhi, and are also one of those who thinks longevity is important, than you will choose
to live longer. The unenlightened can't expect to make decisions that will rule them later when they become enlightened. But they can expect to retain their freedom of choice. |
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Mikananda
USA
90 Posts |
Posted - Jan 29 2012 : 09:03:52 AM
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| How can the unenlightened tell us what it is like to be enlighten? |
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showup
USA
47 Posts |
Posted - Jan 29 2012 : 12:49:24 PM
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A real enlightened yogi will not die. (S)He will attain "Jeeva Samadhi" or their body transformed. All people who die are not enlightened. If someone claim that they are enlightened and if they die at end it means they were cheating.
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machart
USA
342 Posts |
Posted - Jan 29 2012 : 10:21:23 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by showup
A real enlightened yogi will not die. (S)He will attain "Jeeva Samadhi" or their body transformed. All people who die are not enlightened. If someone claim that they are enlightened and if they die at end it means they were cheating.
All people die....and it doesn't really matter if they are enlightened or not...life goes on...and to me .... Death is a part of life...part of me is looking forward to it. |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
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showup
USA
47 Posts |
Posted - Feb 01 2012 : 08:14:24 AM
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quote:
All people die....and it doesn't really matter if they are enlightened or not
You are probably more than your lifetime away even to theoretically understand the concepts of yoga and believe them, possibly several incarnations away for enlightenment.
quote:
Death is a part of life...part of me is looking forward to it.
I am glad that you are evolving in your spiritual path by getting ready for your next incarnation.
FYI: Yoga is all about exiting the process of incarnation by cheating death. |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Feb 01 2012 : 09:15:25 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by showup
FYI: Yoga is all about exiting the process of incarnation by cheating death.
I would go with... going beyond the concept of death... there is no cheating in yoga. |
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showup
USA
47 Posts |
Posted - Feb 01 2012 : 3:04:00 PM
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quote:
there is no cheating in yoga.
Goraksha-Paddhati: [Part 1, Ver 5]
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It is a ladder to liberation, a [means of] cheating death, by which the mind is turned away from pleasure (bhoga) and attached to the transcendental Self (parama-atman). (1.5)
SHIVA SANHITA:
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[CHAPTER IV., Ver 10]
10.Perfect knowledge is formed through practice. Yoga is attained through practice; success in Mudras comes by practice: through practice is gained the success in pranayama. Death can be cheated of its prey through practice, and man becomes the conqueror of death by practice.
[CHAPTER V., Ver 81]
81. When the Yogi contemplates on the Manipur lotus, he gets the psychic power called the patal-siddhi-the giver of constant happiness. He becomes lord of desires, destroys sorrows and diseases, cheats death, and can enter the body of another. |
Edited by - showup on Feb 01 2012 3:13:33 PM |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Feb 01 2012 : 3:13:24 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Shanti
quote:
Originally posted by showup
FYI: Yoga is all about exiting the process of incarnation by cheating death.
I would go with... going beyond the concept of death... there is no cheating in yoga.
And I would add.....and birth |
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Radharani
USA
843 Posts |
Posted - Feb 02 2012 : 04:40:03 AM
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| There may be a misunderstanding here. The ego-self dies. The body dies. The way the liberated soul "conquers death" is by full realization that you are not the ego, you are not the body; you are the transcendental Self which is not born and does not die. |
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showup
USA
47 Posts |
Posted - Feb 02 2012 : 3:16:12 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Radharani
There may be a misunderstanding here. The ego-self dies. The body dies. The way the liberated soul "conquers death" is by full realization that you are not the ego, you are not the body; you are the transcendental Self which is not born and does not die.
There is neither misunderstanding here nor I am talking just based on theoretical knowledge alone. Life force does not escape from the body of enlightened Yogi even if thousands of year passes.
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THE SACRED BOOKS OF THE HINDUS - THE YOGA SASTRA - HATHA YOGA PRADIPIKA EDITED BY, MAJOR BASU, I.M.S.(RETIRED), VOL. XV--PART III, Ver 44-45.
44. If the Yogi, whose body is full of Somarasa, were bitten by Takshaka (snake), its poison cannot permeate his body.
45. As fire is inseparably connected with the wood and light is connected with the wick and oil, so does the soul not leave the body full of nectar exuding from the Soma.
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They are talking here the life force (soul) not living the body and hence physical body not dying.
These kind of questions have been previously raised in this forum.
Please see here.
FYI: The Mummy they are talking here is a jeevasamathi.
There is an enlightened Yogi in Tamil Nadu, India is going to attain Jeevasamathi this year. He already got permission from Tamil Nadu Government (it is a legal requirement in Tamil Nadu) to do so. If you or any one who don't believe, you are welcome to travel to Tamil Nadu to have a look at the process. |
Edited by - showup on Feb 02 2012 6:49:01 PM |
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harsharan000
Spain
59 Posts |
Posted - Feb 04 2012 : 10:39:52 AM
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Excuse me, but enlightment has nothing to do with death. Death is a natural process, which takes place surely in the lives of all living beings...it is destined where and when one shall pass away...nobody can alterate that...it is nature.
While enlighment comes with a consciouss action, in form of meditation. Now I am not going to say on what to meditate, that is for each being to find his/her level comfort...but definetely is by concentrating on higher energy...it is trying to reach that superior levels of consciouness.
Jesus was enlightened, so was Guru Nanak or Kabir Sahib and many more...but they lived and shared their enlightment.
So let nobody confuse us with irrational thoughts. |
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showup
USA
47 Posts |
Posted - Feb 08 2012 : 6:46:51 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by harsharan000
Excuse me, but enlightment has nothing to do with death. Death is a natural process, which takes place surely in the lives of all living beings...it is destined where and when one shall pass away...nobody can alterate that...it is nature.
Sorry to say, you really need a better understanding on what yoga is, and what it is meant for. I do not want to teach here alphabets of yoga but to put it short, Yoga is one of the paths in which human beings can be raised to a level higher than Gods. Yes, a enlightened person during in samadhi is at higher level than Lord Siva, Lord Vishnu and Lord Rudhra themselves (when they are not in samadhi). A Yogi attains all the 8 sidhies and wins death much, much, before reaching enlightenment. So, all the real enlightened persons are supposed to have all the sidhies and won death or skilled enough to win death.
There are tens to several hundreds of people who call(ed) themselves as God, incarnation of God just to make money and be in limelight. Now too it is happening and people too are ready to believe them and their preachings.
If you want to distinguish a real enlightened yogi check and see whether (s)he has any siddhies or (s)he planning on reaching jeevasamadhi. |
Edited by - showup on Feb 09 2012 07:40:55 AM |
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Enlightenment and Death?
