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JDH
USA
331 Posts |
 Posted - Jan 09 2012 : 12:59:13 AM
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Hey everybody,
I've felt stagnant lately in the AYP front. Like that one lesson that says moving this energy around is a neat trick, but so what? I can't find the lesson right now.
I know based on my own firsthand experience that AYP does do something. And that it does "work" to move kundalini energy, ecstatic conductivity, slowing the body down to a deep stillness in meditation, etc. etc. I have learned a lot about the energy pathways, and I never knew about them before AYP. They have changed and evolved over the 2 years I have done AYP. I've had occasional experiences of stillness and having the mind shut down, but it has usually been on marijuana, which I use rarely for the last 1.5 yrs. I have been to an AYP retreat where I had a great time, and perhaps there was some cumulative effect of having a bunch of purified nervous systems around. Or perhaps I was feeling great because I got to go on a weeklong vacation and meet a bunch of cool people.
As for stillness in action, 24/7 bliss, divine love out in my daily workaday life? No more so than I was already experiencing before AYP. The benefits of all this in my life, I just don't see it. No significant difference, as they would say in science. I want to believe that what I already have experienced firsthand eventually leads to something more, as it says in the lessons. But after 2 years, it feels like that "neat trick" lesson, and it has felt like that for a long time now. And I'm starting to wonder if I'm doing more harm than good by keeping up this habit. I am wondering if it is all just meaningless energy movements. I am wondering if enlightenment is just finally quitting searching for enlightenment. You do have to admit, repeating a thought over and over, day after day, sounds a little bit crazy.
Anyway, I'm hoping to hear from some of the old members of the forums who have been doing AYP for 5 or 6 or 7 years now. It seems like a lot of the older forum members have disappeared or gone quiet. Are you still around? What's going on with your sadhana? Are you living in divine love? Moving in stillness? Do you still practice AYP? Did it work? Did you move on?
Thanks to anybody who chimes in. Please no answers telling me this all depends on what the definition of the word "is" is. I just hope to hear from anybody who has been at this same point, and gone on to have it blossom into the rosy picture Yogani writes about. Or from anybody who feels they have also stagnated for a long period. Also, as a little background, I have tried most of the add-ons to AYP at various points, but primarily I have just done the DM/Spinal breathing for a little over 2 years, with Samyama also being somewhat consistent. |
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SeySorciere
Seychelles
1553 Posts |
Posted - Jan 09 2012 : 06:44:36 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by JDH
Hey everybody,
I've felt stagnant lately in the AYP front...
As for stillness in action, 24/7 bliss, divine love out in my daily workaday life? No more so than I was already experiencing before AYP. The benefits of all this in my life, I just don't see it. No significant difference, as they would say in science. I want to believe that what I already have experienced firsthand eventually leads to something more, as it says in the lessons. But after 2 years, it feels like that "neat trick" lesson, and it has felt like that for a long time now.
It seems like a lot of the older forum members have disappeared or gone quiet. Are you still around? What's going on with your sadhana? Are you living in divine love? Moving in stillness? Do you still practice AYP? Did it work? Did you move on?
Dear JDH - I will chime in, just in case nobody does. I sometimes get the impression that if you are an "old-timer" and with 2 yrs, you are probably considered one - you are left to struggle further on your own without further guidance.
Everything I have experienced energy-wise - like you say, I now know much more about energy pathways and chakras - are temporary phases I have gone through: the outpouring of Love, the bliss, the moving in stillness; the Witness - all temporary. I have been feeling stagnant and unhappy for months now, so I started experimenting with all the add-ons, without feeling satisfied with the effect /progress enough to stick to any of them. I, of course, probably did some harm as well with overload.
However, and this I emphasize, I am a lot more loving and compassionate in my daily life. Great improvement there. Also abundance flows through my life in an incredible way. When I look at the samyama words I have been dropping into stillness - those that have had effect is "Love" but not in the way that I wish; "Radiance" - comes and goes (meaning I can close my eyes and see my shining heart some days, other days not - not at the moment); "Unity" - I have never experienced that one. "Health" - I always intent towards family on that one, but I have been generally healthy; "strength" - I have always been strong. "Abundance" - Oh yes on that one ! I changed the last three words to "Gratitude" - so, so. "Inspiration" - there, but again not what I was intending. "Humility" - that one is closest to my heart but the one I have least success with. Oh and I also drop the name of my soulmate, with the intent of moving on from a relationship that is not meant to be.. complete and utter failure on that one.
"Did it work?" Yes and No. "Did I move on?" To enlightenment?? Absolutely not.
I hope you find this helpful.
In sincerity (my perception, obviously)
Sey
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wigswest
USA
115 Posts |
Posted - Jan 09 2012 : 09:28:39 AM
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Hi JDH, AYP has helped form my *foundational* daily practices, but the extras, so to speak, are whatever moves me closer to the Light at any given time - I've followed many eclectic practices, and will drop them and move onto something else once they start getting stale (and many times will go back to them years later). I read extensively, and there are myriad paths I have yet to try - who knows, over several lifetimes I may get to sample them all :)
My determination to get to the Light (which I have come to know as Personal and loving), is fierce - think sperm swimming to egg <grin> - and I am ruthless about pushing anything out of my life which does not further that goal. And yes, I know it may not happen for lifetimes, but being on the journey itself is bliss :)
Also... oddly enough, I've found that one of the most crucial practices I have in this regard is cultivating gratitude, on a moment-by-moment basis. It sounds hokey, perhaps, but it works like nothing else I've tried. It's quite difficult, at first, to supplant a feeling of gloom or fear with gratitude, out of sheer will...think Yogani's "clunky" x a million ;) But once that ball gets rolling - WOW.
Forget about "enlightenment", my friend. Seek your bliss, your eternal desire. Stop at nothing to reach it. That is what all of us are born for :) |
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AumNaturel
Canada
687 Posts |
Posted - Jan 09 2012 : 1:51:44 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by JDH
I'm hoping to hear from some of the old members of the forums who have been doing AYP for 5 or 6 or 7 years now
Me too. It would be insightful, even though I wouldn't take it to be too definitive since each person likely varies based on past experience (with other systems, life circumstances, past lives...) which is probably summed up at least in part as one's personal neuroanatomical matrix of obstructions.
I have read about some reporting overloads to the point of cutting back, and since that was before vol 2 was released, I wonder if it has improved.
I've only done AYP twice daily for ~9 months now, slowly adding practices, but been doing meditation and other systems for about a decade but not daily or without occasional interruptions as with AYP where routine and building momentum seem to play a vital role.
And I know what you're asking here: the real deal results, not more strongly-subjective reports on what seems to be happening in-between any real milestones. In my case: none. It would be great to hear from those who have, and who directly attribute it to AYP.
If my "none" were to change, it would be great to be 'back' here and say more about it, even if it meant talking about it as dispassionately and unattached as to avoid any possibility of impeding more openings. |
Edited by - AumNaturel on Jan 09 2012 1:55:25 PM |
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bewell
1275 Posts |
Posted - Jan 09 2012 : 2:11:56 PM
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Hi JDH,
I don't have a long-term goal in mind. For me the reward is in the process day to day.
Time for a sit
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Edited by - bewell on Jan 09 2012 2:15:40 PM |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4429 Posts |
Posted - Jan 09 2012 : 4:06:33 PM
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Hi JDH,
I joined the forum in 2006, and I think I had been doing the practices for a year before I joined, so that makes 7 years. To be honest, 2 years is not a long time to be doing spiritual practices for, and it is really great that you are experiencing energy movements and the mind coming to stillness is such a short space of time. Yogani once said that for most people, purifying the nervous system is a major project. The truth is, that for most people, that "major project" could take around 20 years.
I started practising yoga at the age of 16, and I am now 42, so that makes 26 years of practice. I am actually a really slow student (some things I pick up easily, but not yoga). I have had long periods of time when I felt that nothing much was happening, sometimes lasting for 3 or 4 years at a time. At some point I realized that I was going to continue to suffer until I really got this thing, the thing called yoga, or union. So then I realized that I couldn't give up, there wasn't any point. It was like, you lose, until you win, and once you win, you win forever.
So does it work? Yes. Do I live in a fountain of ecstasy 24/7? Well, most of the time. I don't know what happens when I'm asleep, because, I'm asleep but when I wake up, I wake up in ecstasy, every day. It is often so powerful that I cannot move my body at all for a while. It varies in intensity throughout the day, at times being hardly noticeable, but at other times overwhelming. It feels like every cell in my body is alive and exploding and radiant. But to be honest, it's just an energy sensation and it pales into insignificance compared to the other aspects of awakening. Those are more difficult to talk about, because we don't really have the words in the English language. Yogani once said, "the heart melts in an extraordinary way". That is about as close as you can come to it in words. It's like you die into the heart, and the world dies with you. That makes it sound a bit sad, but it is actually the most joyful thing that could ever happen to you. The world is entering a time of love, and being part of that is like being part of a miracle.
The time to stop seeking for enlightenment is when it is all around you and both you and the world have become outshone by it. Until then, it is best to just carry on, not being too expectant of this result or that result. Many people give up because they don't get the results they wanted in the time-frame that they expected them in. But the time-frame was of their own making.
All the best,
Christi |
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cosmic
USA
821 Posts |
Posted - Jan 09 2012 : 5:59:27 PM
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Hiya JDH
I appreciate your honesty in writing this post. I also admire your willingness to discuss this side of your practice. It's important to acknowledge what isn't working, rather than pretend like things are hunky-dory.
I've practiced AYP since summer of 2004, so that makes 7+ years for me. The stagnation you describe has come and gone many times here. Like Christi said, 2 years is not a long time in the grand scheme of things. It's definitely admirable because it takes trust and commitment to get where you are.
For me, the 2-year mark is about when I committed to following through on AYP for as long as it took. Before that, I went through constant cycles of burning myself out with overload and then stopping practices altogether for weeks or months. Then it took another 2 years to learn how to self-pace and become stable in practices. At about that point (4 years in), I naturally stopped searching for something else. AYP had given me wonderful results by then, and I was sold on it.
I'm not bathing in ecstatic bliss and divine love 24/7, but I do experience varying degrees of the "enlightenment milestones". Inner silence is almost constant, ecstasy is occasional. I experience Love much of the time, but I don't know if I'd call it "Divine Love".
That said, I'm a regular guy with very normal problems. I have financial issues, communication problems, fears, insecurities, sadness, jealousy, etc. I still struggle to stay motivated, to make the right decisions, to apply my gifts in a meaningful way. I still go through periods of stagnation, but I've learned to trust and I've seen these periods give way to greater levels of freedom.
Wishing you a wonderful journey, wherever the road takes you. Hope our paths cross again. Thank you for this discussion!
[img]icon_heart.gif[/img] |
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SeySorciere
Seychelles
1553 Posts |
Posted - Jan 09 2012 : 11:13:19 PM
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Thank you so much Christi - that is indeed very inspiring.
Keep going people ! 
Sey |
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nearoanoke
USA
525 Posts |
Posted - Jan 09 2012 : 11:35:56 PM
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I've started in Jan 2005. So it is exactly 7 years.
My practices were similar to yours. After about 3 years, I decided I needed to try something else as experiences/visions were not happening
I tried other methods in 2008-2009. In 2010, I stopped all practices though was occasionally doing some.
In 2011 I came back to AYP.
After an year of practice, I get a feeling that it will work. I still dont have any visions/experiences but had certain hints
- A growing sense of trust that everything is alright (including the progress) and not wanting to know exact reasons why something happened (or didnt happen) to me
- A major conflict in personal life was resolved as I was able to let go
- Few coincidences. Of late, in the past 2-3 months I found meaningful and related messages from chinese fortune cookies. Not everytime I goto a chinese restaurant. But most times. The messages are often exact answers to my questions
- Becoming more aware of my tendencies. More like being able to watch or catch myself or recognize the patterns. Not like a witness state or nowhere close to that.
- Becoming more responsible for my actions. Looking at suffering and conflict as something to learn from rather than just running away. Realizing importance of surrender and willing to give up my control
- Near |
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chit-ananda51
India
127 Posts |
Posted - Jan 10 2012 : 12:13:47 AM
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| Thank you JDH for sharing your experience. It also brought out the experiences of few other long time AYP practitioners to the front. It's always great to learn and look standing on the shoulders of giants! |
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JDH
USA
331 Posts |
Posted - Jan 10 2012 : 12:54:56 AM
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SeySorciere, good to hear from you. We share an AYP birthday, so to speak. I’ve gone through phases of all those as well. And it’s hard to say that they are attributable to AYP. I was already experiencing Love, Abundance, witnessing before AYP. And I think everybody does experience these great parts of life from time to time with or without spiritual practices. Being mindful of them certainly helps to cultivate them to show up more often in our lives, but is it something more than what we would be experiencing anyway? We can never know. Unless something shifts through practices to make it so blindingly obvious that practices have borne fruit. I’d say so far from Samyama I’m more likely to see “small miracles” in coincidences. But again, that’s something I already experienced beforehand. Thanks for chiming in.
Wigswest, you make a good point. Every AYP lesson ends with “The guru is in you.” Maybe I need to follow my gut and change my life in other ways. However, the AYP lessons mention several times that there is more to be gained by finding something that works and sticking with it for a long period of time (years) to follow it to the fruition of enlightenment. Then there are these long periods of stagnation when it is tempting to follow some new practice, or anything that happens to raise kundalini on a given day. It seems like I experience enough of the energy movements that AYP is “working” for me and that if it is working, then keeping on with it should be just about as good as any other similar versions of pranayama, meditation, and prayer. I guess it comes down to what you were saying about whether or not your heart’s in it. That fierceness. I had that when I began AYP. Now I have a tamed habit. I will look for that ferocity, and for more places to find gratitude since you both recommend it. Maybe it’s one of those coincidences.
AumNaturel, thanks for your honesty, and it is great that several people who are getting more than “none” have responded.
Bewell, thanks for responding. The day to day benefits aren’t “doing it for me” so to speak, and that’s why I wrote this post. When I began daily practices, I was learning about these new parts of my spiritual biology, almost like a baby discovering its feet and its hands, and its nose. And about the new states of mind. The deep stillness of meditation, of barely breathing, barely thinking. It kept me going because quite frankly, I needed to know what happened next. But now like a toddler, I’m kind of bored of touching my foot and nose with my hand after doing it a thousand times. I want to get up and run around, using this new stuff in my life. If it doesn’t translate over into something better, well then it’s just this neat curiosity, but so what? Then I am just resting twice a day and taking some kind of self hypnotic neurochemical cocktail. So I suppose I was hoping for a little inspiration from you guys who have been at it a while longer. I know at least one person once wrote that it was worth it a thousand times over, and maybe a few other people have as well. But then they tend to leave the forums, or if they do stick around, it is to just point newcomers in the direction of the lessons that answer their questions. We don’t hear much about their sadhanas after a certain point, except for a select few who stick around. So also I was checking for some honest answers out there. Did it really work… was there a surprise at the end of the rainbow? A long term goal? Or are we all just tooting each other’s horns to justify the hour or more per day that we devote to this? Don’t get me wrong, I know there are times when it’s exciting to do it. But when 9 months or a year go by without any real change… and the day to day experience of life still kind of well “sucks” then I get to questioning. It’s that quest for “more” that Wigswest was just talking about.
Christi, I really appreciate hearing from you. And that at times you’ve stagnated for 3-4 years to then move on toward that heart melting. I felt the heart melt once early on in AYP, and then nothing more there ever since. Anyway, I am not shy of major projects. One of my major projects is financial independence. I don’t care to be rich and famous, but just to not have to work a soul-crushing job for 30 more years. It’s a similar undertaking in that there are years of hardship with no rewards, no improvement, followed by a sudden and permanent reward at the end. I’m able to carry on living a meager existence in pursuit of this goal because I know it will work with a very high probability. I can see and understand the mechanisms by which it will eventually provide me freedom. And so I guess I haven’t reached that point yet that you eventually did. The point where it became clear that this was the path to the end of suffering. My logical mind cannot connect the dots that lead from here to enlightenment, and maybe that is where the analogy ends. Maybe it must be a leap of faith in yoga. In economics I know about income, savings, capital, power classes, ownership, etc. It all adds up to me being a kind of indentured servant until I pay off my servitude, so to speak. I can change my job, but I can’t leave the work camp no matter where I go. It's clear that with enough capital income to cover basic living expenses, one no longer has to suffer meaningless work. In yoga, it's not clear how the mechanisms work. Why and how breath retention and concentration lead to an enlightened state do not make any sort of logical sense, unless the root of all suffering is a shortage of oxygen and a lack of focus. Maybe it is that simple.
Moving on though, your description of daily ecstasy sounds like a drug with no hangover. Which I have to admit is part of the quest which led me here. The other draw being fearless love with no consequences. I can feel the energy movements, hundreds of times a day. I barely notice them anymore, but they are there. Then also once in a while, more like every few days or weeks, I feel the same quality of energy, but varying up to a much greater intensity. This tends to happen more often in practices than out in daily experience. It is more like the explosive radiance in every cell you mention. The acceleration of energy in the sushumna. The more common energy movements have changed over the months and years, and if I had to describe it, I would say they are getting deeper. Like into my organs more than before. Anyway, I do see the evolution of this and I could see it going toward what you are describing, and what Yogani describes – an ongoing inner ecstasy experience at any time of the day, occurring regularly. And this is alluring, but like you said, it all gets very normal, and it’s just energy. I am concerned that this is some kind of neurochemical cocktail which we are training our brain to release. An endogenous drug. I’m concerned that the end of suffering is a state of emotionless equanimity toward all things while in this drugged state. Sure everything seems fine when there’s neverending ecstasy. But not if it is at the expense of detachment from everything. Is there something more than drowning in endogenous ecstasy? To be fully honest, part of my concern about this comes from listening to Yogani’s radio interviews. Yogani sounds detached, emotionless. Yogani you are probably reading this so I won’t keep talking about you in the third person. Is that you drowning in detached emotionless ecstasy, or is that just the way you talk? Christi do you still feel emotions, or is this end of suffering at the expense of caring about everything less than the ecstasy? I’m glad that you replied, because you often speak of the energy body, and to hear you say that there is more than that, and that it is worth it to keep going, it means a lot to me. I mentioned above I had a teaser of the heart opening, and I know there’s a little bit of sad, but a lot more joy that flows through there. I suppose if that’s part of the deal, then it will be worth it.
Cosmic, another long time practicer, who I didn’t know was one. Thank you for the direct response. I am still kind of going through the over-load and regroup cycle, but I’m getting closer to finding the sweet spot. When I overload, I tend to just practice once per day for a while and keep going. You brought up a key point which I kind of left between the lines. We are ordinary people with ordinary problems. Trying to live our lives right like billions of people have before us. I came to AYP expecting something very different than what’s happening. And maybe that is why the bhakti is faltering to a degree. What I’m getting is something very different but still somewhat interesting. Enough to keep me going I suppose. I no longer expect an infinite high, or sexual super powers, or any kind of super powers, or the end of all my problems. But I do have some expectation. I need something beyond just energy movements. They have become so boring, it is like farting. Big energy movements are like… well I’ll stop there. But you know, maybe at least a solution to my problems, even if it's not in the way I'd expect. Some solution other than ignoring the problems in favor of ecstasy. I've done enough of that with drugs in the past. I am glad to hear your reply, that there is stagnation, but gradually increasing “freedom” as the years go by. Freedom is what I am after in financial independence. The freedom of time. And so freedom is a very good word to give me as a motivating description.
Near, to reach a state of doubt like mine, and then leave, and THEN come back. Well that surely says a lot. Maybe something like what Christi mentioned of eventually reaching a point where you realize this is the best we’ve got for ending suffering? Part of what I’m struggling with is that your list of things is about what my list would look like if I were going to make a list of things besides energy movements. And my problem with the list is, I could list those same things without doing practices. It could be a list of things that we learn as we grow older and continue to learn about life. Coincidences happen to everybody. The witness state is another thing I’ve questioned lately. In a way you could say that human awareness itself is a witness state, and that everybody is witnessing their experience of life. Everyone. All the time. How could you not? So I have a little hang-up on the terminology there. I know that’s not the exact sense in which the word is used here. But on the other hand, again before AYP I already had experiences of treating thoughts as objects, of seeing my life from a detached movie like perspective, of having periods of thoughtlessness when I was absorbed in the moment. These are things that all humans experience from time to time. The lessons say it becomes a full time experience though, and well after 2 years I guess I just don’t see any concrete movement toward that. Although of course there’s no way to test it with no control group, I’ll never know.
Chit-ananda, it sure is. I'm also grateful to hear back from so many long-timers.
Thank you all for responding so quickly. I will continue the practices, although I’m clearly still going through a period of doubt. As you know, nothing you could say could ever convince me like the first hand experience would. But to see you say that stagnation happens for long periods of time is enough to fuel my bhakti for now.
Much love,
JDH
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Edited by - JDH on Jan 10 2012 01:10:43 AM |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2516 Posts |
Posted - Jan 10 2012 : 02:08:23 AM
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| wow great to know the experiences of ayp "old timers'...thank you all |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4429 Posts |
Posted - Jan 10 2012 : 06:08:20 AM
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Hi JDH,
quote:
Anyway, I am not shy of major projects. One of my major projects is financial independence. I don’t care to be rich and famous, but just to not have to work a soul-crushing job for 30 more years. It’s a similar undertaking in that there are years of hardship with no rewards, no improvement, followed by a sudden and permanent reward at the end.
This is an idea that it is useful to let go of, the idea that awakening, or enlightenment is a sudden and permanent reward which comes at the end of spiritual practice. It is a really common view, and I think it is one that holds a lot of people back. It simply doesn't work that way. The path is a gradual one, and at first things come in small degrees, fleetingly. We have moments of peace, moments of joy, moments of freedom. Sometimes they are powerful, sometimes not so. But they don't last and then we find ourselves wanting them back. Over times, the moments of joy increase, and they increase in intensity, moments of peace increase, and increase in intensity and so on. There is less wishing things to be different... more equanimity, stability, a kind of solidity in our experience.
Becoming established in the witness is part of this. Witnessing means seeing things, and, as you say, everyone does that. But becoming established in the witness is a question of identity. It is about realizing that you are not what you see, or what you hear, or what you think, but something quite other, and much more vast. But even this is something that comes and goes at first. We fall into the awakened state and fall out of it again.
So it is a question of building habits. Making peace a habit by meditating every day, and so on. Eventually the gaps become smaller. The periods of disquiet become less than the moments of peace. The moments of falling asleep (into the dream that we call life) become less than the moments of awakening into truth. The moments of separation become less than the moments of love.
quote:
Christi do you still feel emotions, or is this end of suffering at the expense of caring about everything less than the ecstasy? I’m glad that you replied, because you often speak of the energy body, and to hear you say that there is more than that, and that it is worth it to keep going, it means a lot to me.
Just to clear something up, I haven't reached the end of suffering. All you would have to do is poke me in the eye and I would suffer pretty fast. But I certainly suffer much less than I used to.
And yes, I still feel emotions. Actually I feel emotions far more strongly than I used to. This is one aspect of the awakening and purification of the energy body. But to answer your question, no, the ending of suffering is not caused by being so flooded by ecstasy that you no longer care about the suffering of people around you. The actual process is a bit more complicated. It's the bit I left out above in my last post when I said that the English language doesn't have words for it.
What actually happens is this. There are two things happening at once. Through the purification of the nervous system, the heart is opened and the crown is opened. The opening of these two centres actually changes the way we relate to the content of our minds. At the same time, through the practice of meditation, we become gradually more established in peace and stillness and silence. With these aspects of consciousness coming to the fore, it becomes much easier to discriminate between what is real and what is not real. We no longer get lost in the story, the story of who we think we are. This is the process of becoming established in the witness Self. It is not an emotionless, disinterested state. What we are no longer identified with was never real anyway, just movements of thought. It is a coming in to what is real, and what is real is a state of existence where love is the connecting and sustaining force. Everything is created by and connected by and sustained by, love. And when the heart is open and fully purified, love flows from it, wanting to bring everything into it's own experience of radiant joy and absolute connectedness. This is what "outpouring Divine love means". It is almost inconceivable for the human mind to comprehend, which is why it isn't talked about much. As an experience it is about as emotion-filled as it comes. Almost unbearably so.
The thing about ecstasy is, it's part of the process. Ecstasy spills over into Divine love through the opening of the heart. Ecstasy also makes the experience of bliss possible. No ecstasy, no bliss, at least not on a permanent basis. And without bliss, Divine love and enlightenment are not possible. That is one of the reasons I talk a lot about the energy body. Once the energy body is awakened and purified, everything becomes simple and easy, and things follow on, one from the other.
Christi
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maheswari
Lebanon
2516 Posts |
Posted - Jan 10 2012 : 06:27:25 AM
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quote:
At the same time, through the practice of meditation, we become gradually more established in peace and stillness and silence. With these aspects of consciousness coming to the fore, it becomes much easier to discriminate between what is real and what is not real. We no longer get lost in the story, the story of who we think we are. This is the process of becoming established in the witness Self. It is not an emotionless, disinterested state. What we are no longer identified with was never real anyway, just movements of thought. It is a coming in to what is real, and what is real is a state of existence where love is the connecting and sustaining force. Everything is created by and connected by and sustained by, love
beautiful...thank you |
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bewell
1275 Posts |
Posted - Jan 10 2012 : 5:19:10 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by JDH
...I want to get up and run around, using this new stuff in my life.
Cool! That fits a lot of my current experience... getting up and running around and using this new stuff in my life. I don't say much about it on the forum in part because the experience day to day it its own reward, and there is no need to talk about it. And yet I am still staying in touch with the forum, and still doing AYP -- part of the reward of doing that is not for "me" in the narrow sense, but for a larger community. Other's making progress is my progress, and your boredom is my boredom, and your stying with practices through the boredom is mine too.
That said, I confess that in spite of a core of AYP in my daily routine, there is also a sense that an "other system" is emerging in my process. Not a better system, or a competing system, but rather a system that is... what is the word...not only self paced but self revealed. I suspect that such a process of self revelation is what leads long-term practitioners to move on. |
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JDH
USA
331 Posts |
Posted - Jan 10 2012 : 11:56:16 PM
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| Thanks again Christi, and all. I will redouble my efforts, fine tune the habit, and stick with it. |
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mikkiji
USA
219 Posts |
Posted - Jan 12 2012 : 9:22:02 PM
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Jeff--Hey old buddy! Ah, the folly of youth! We seek instant gratification, but this path is life-long, or, if you prefer, MANY lives long. It begins where we are now (as in, "Today is the first day of the rest of your life") and never ends until we become one with the Ultimate. You are looking for "stillness in action, divine love, ecstatic conductivity, 24/7 bliss and kundalini energy" after only 2 years of practice--and, as you said in another post, a practice during which you have cut corners and not always gotten the full effect because of those cut corners. SO--this is a long, gradual and difficult path. It holds both tortuous uphill challenges as well as occasional setbacks and defeats. It makes demands on our time, energy, dedication and patience. Now the contrast--and we've had long talks about this. I've been doing my practices, fairly steadily, for 40 years. That would be 20 times longer than you. I spent 2 full years in ashram, doing practice hours and hours each day, not to mention many hours of darshan. I am still looking forward to all those things you desire. I'm looking at them from a different perspective, however. They do not just "pop up" suddenly and then stay as permanent features. They begin like mists after five, 10, 15, 20, 25 years. As your practices become the routine of your life, your life takes on deeper meaning--less of the "soul-crushing" you describe and more of dharmic harmony and balance. None of this is instant or easy. But the one thing we CAN be certain of is that we ARE, from the very beginning, developing a deeper and more intimate contact with our inner silence. As we begin, in 2 or 4 or 8 years, to stabilize this inner silence a little bit, we can begin to "use " it, as it were. We use it to better tune in to our intuition. We use it to make better decisions. We use it to help guide us to having better relationships. And this "using inner silence" is not even something we "do", it is not about doing, but about Being. The more time we spend in inner silence over the years, the more it becomes saturated throughout our entire life and the more the benefits of it percolate into our outer actions. Look less for answers or results and look more for your Self, just that. Where are You, Who are You? In silence exists your Self. From silence comes your Life. Stop looking and analyzing, questioning and wondering when it will all happen. It will happen when you least expect it. Stop being so oriented toward progress and results--that is an attachment, a yardstick which never helps. Relax and accept--which does not mean let your life go to hell. God DOES help those who help themselves, so action is always necessary. But the most successful action arises from silence. My regular experience of witnessing began in 1999, over 25 years into my practice, and my kundalini awakening took place in 2004, over 30 years after I began regular meditation practices. I believe that this is probably not unusual for householders in 21st century America holding jobs, paying mortgages and raising children. I look forward to 25 more years of similar awakening and growth, evolution and understanding. It's what we have to do in life, after all, just this, take care of our spiritual growth. It IS our life--we needn't finish it all in 2 years!
Namaste,
Michael |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2516 Posts |
Posted - Jan 13 2012 : 01:41:48 AM
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| very nice mikkiji...thank you |
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JDH
USA
331 Posts |
Posted - Jan 15 2012 : 12:05:54 AM
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Hey Michael .
Things are going backwards for me. All ecstatic conductivity. No inner silence. I can’t help but to think the thought that ecstatic conductivity is the kernel of truth, and the rest of this is an irrefutable tall tale that got baked in with it. The emperor’s clothes, so to speak.
I guess I just wanted to hear from our local AYP yoga masters that there is something more to it. Maybe the time you spent with Master Nippo and Maharshi kept your bhakti going for those beginning years until some life changes became evident. Maybe you saw something in them that gave you unwavering faith in this path. Maybe embarking on the path with your soulmate made it an obvious part of your dharma. I mostly go on my first person experience, and I suppose that’s mostly by choice. Not much has changed since we last talked about the absence of my dharma, if anything I'm even more confused now. Maybe the ecstatic conductivity alone is enough to keep me going on until it gets more real in daily life with 'silently successful actions.' But these replies and stories of your paths help. And I can't help but wish for some instant gratification too.
Much love my friend. |
Edited by - JDH on Jan 15 2012 12:12:58 AM |
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JDH
USA
331 Posts |
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whippoorwill
USA
450 Posts |
Posted - Jan 15 2012 : 4:23:43 PM
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Hi JDH:
I'm not an old-timer, but I had a thought for you... If you're doing this already and have mentioned it already, I apologize....
I was thinking maybe some kind of karma yoga might help -- like volunteering in a max security prison, or in an inner city elementary school. Throw yourself face first into stark human misery and give to them what you can -- kindness, compassion, a listening ear. Give to them knowing that your gifts may not change their lives in any fundamental way and knowing that they may not remember you. Freely express your inner beauty just simply because they are your fellow human beings.
It will tax every ounce of your energy, but it may help you find the answer to the question: "So what?"
Before I started doing AYP, I was doing a variant of the above suggestion. It wasn't much, but it was too much for me. I didn't know how to tap the energy within me. I didn't know how to find inner silence. I wasn't able to detach myself from all the emotional turmoil around me or from the horrific things I witnessed. I didn't know how to let go of the notion that I needed to "fix things." I got physically sick from the strain it took on my body. AYP has helped me to heal in so many ways.
I realize it's kind of an extreme suggestion and pretty presumptuous as well. Please feel free to dump it in the circular file.
P.S. I don't have much in the way of energy experiences. The main difference for me is that I sometimes wake up on my own in the morning and I'm not completely exhausted when I go to bed at night. The silence is the main benefit for me, and it is golden!
P.P.S I should also mention that I'm not doing those things anymore anywhere near to the degree that I was.
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Edited by - whippoorwill on Jan 15 2012 6:02:54 PM |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4429 Posts |
Posted - Jan 16 2012 : 3:46:35 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by JDH
This isn't the lesson I referenced in the original post, but it's right on topic.
http://www.aypsite.org/35.html
Hi JDH,
There was something else I wanted to say about this topic, which is about expectations and goals. You need to have expectations, otherwise you won't do any spiritual practices, but those expectations need to be realistic, and attainable in the short to mid term, otherwise you will get disillusioned.
Personally I would say that the milestones listed in lesson 35 which you linked to, are, for most people, not realistic short to mid-term goals. They are advanced stages of spiritual practice. To be fair to Yogani, he doesn't claim that they are anything else, but the absence of any more realistic short term goals in the lessons, does (or may) give the impression that you should be living in a fountain of ecstatic bliss after a couple of years of practice.
One thing that I have found (and still do find) useful is to set a goal, or a series of goals that are small, but doable. For example, when you meditate, just see if you can be completely present with the mantra for one whole minute and see what happens. Or if a minute is too much, then 30 seconds. If you can manage one minute easily, then 2 minutes. Wherever you are at, add a minute and see if you can manage that each time you sit. Again, with pranayama, see if you can really feel into the connection between the root chakra and the brow chakra just for 10 breaths each time you sit. And so on with the other practices.
By doing this I find that I can move forward in small steps which are tangible. Once you begin to experience samadhi, things become much easier, and much more enjoyable, and a lot of doubts fall away. This happens because revelation happens in samadhi. And it doesn't take a great deal of concentration and stillness of mind to enter samadhi.
All the best
Christi |
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JDH
USA
331 Posts |
Posted - Jan 16 2012 : 6:26:32 PM
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whippoorwill, I will give that a try should the opportunity present itself, thanks for the suggestion.
That is sound advice Christi, in any endeavor. I'll see about tracking these small steps and gauging where I'm at. |
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mikkiji
USA
219 Posts |
Posted - Jan 17 2012 : 12:11:15 AM
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My late guru, Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, often, especially in the early days, gave us the impression that we could expect pretty rapid progress, reaching what he called "Cosmic Consciousness" (the 24/7 presence of the silent witness, key signpost for that is regular witnessing of sleep, which is a very specific and noticeable change is how our awareness is functioning) after perhaps 5 or 10 years, depending upon how many residence courses and advanced training one availed oneself of. He was WAY off, but then again, he had no experience with western lifestyles and cultures. I agree with Christi in looking for small things, setting small goals, but I'd recommend not looking for experiences DURING meditation, but some changes or results, however small or subtle, OUTSIDE of the meditation practice. This was always the instruction Maharishi told us to give to our initiates, because changes during meditation can be from a large variety of causes, and to measure success of meditation by how much time we spent in silence, or on mantra, ignores the cyclic nature of the mind/body interaction occurring in each meditation session. It fails to account for the fact that going OFF the mantra onto other thoughts is a sign of purification, a symptom that stresses have been released. So, mind settling down is correct and successful meditation, yes, but so is also mind settling down sufficiently so that a stress is released, which increase in physical activity necessitates a corresponding increase in mental activity, which we experience as a thought. So these twin strokes--inward stroke of refinement, and outward stroke of purification, are both necessary and successful! Look instead to what happens in life. Some small success in changing to a more positive mood. If moods don't seem to shift positively in a spontaneous way, then is is permissible to push a little bit. Make a mood of the change you desire or the emotions you'd rather feel. Just that mood will often begin a more inner and permanent change. Bring yourself to more blissful states in life by drinking in daily the amazing, complex reality which contains us. Everything is miraculous, including, especially, yourself. Begin seeing what is there--the miracles--and life automatically becomes more blissful.
Namaste,
Michael |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4429 Posts |
Posted - Jan 17 2012 : 04:53:29 AM
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Hi Mikiji,
Yes, you are right that different things can happen during meditation, and that times of what seem like lack of clarity during meditation can actually be a sign that progress is being made. However, I was not really making suggestions about ways in which progress can be measured, but more about ways in which progress can actually be made.
But I agree with you (and the late Maharishi), that success in spiritual practice is always, and only about what happens off the mat.
Christi |
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JDH
USA
331 Posts |
Posted - Jan 17 2012 : 1:58:18 PM
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This thread is full of gold. I asked for a spark to bhakti and I got it. Michael, that description of the cycles of purification and refinement is very enlightening. It's been mentioned a hundred or maybe a thousand times in my reading here that meditation experiences are going to vary greatly, so it's the process that matters rather than any given result. But that post is some insight into why and how that's happening. It reminds me of digging a hole, a really deep one, like a mine. First you dig, then all that dirt has to be carried up out of the hole. Then you can dig deeper. Then there's a landslide, and the hole gets partially refilled, and you keep going anyway. Some sessions it's raining and you're digging through mud. Sometimes you hit a layer of rock... maybe I'm going too far. But the idea of instrokes and outstrokes... that to dig deeper, something must be carried out of the mine, it makes great sense out of the variation of meditation experiences. I don't really have an experiential understanding of the oft-mentioned concept of purification. I know something is happening here, but I couldn't yet describe it as purification. This lends a little credence to that idea, for me.
I didn't misunderstand you Christi, I know that you just meant the goal was to infuse the practices with more intention and presence rather than any counting of minutes, or any other distraction during meditation. That suggestion of presence is just what I noticed when I revisited the DM lessons recently. Just to be with the mantra no matter what level it is at. Previously I was TRYING to get deeper with it. Now I just stay with it, and let it go deeper or resurface, or faster or slower, or move to my head or heart, or whatever feels natural in the moment. Sometimes it feels like a chase to stay on its character. Sometimes it goes so deep that it's no longer a thought, and I lose it. When I lose it "out the bottom" like this, it seems like the only way to stay with it is to let it change from a thought into an energy. And there's the crossover point into the energy. I usually lose it anyway, but during the last week this has manifest often as the mantra dropping into my heart, and then disappearing. Anyway, this shift in procedure alone has helped me to feel relatively unstuck since I started this post. For the first time I am starting to understand that meditation is the driver behind this whole thing, whatever it is. Previously I didn't really feel an engine at all, and if anything I would have pointed at pranayama. I enjoyed pranayama, and meditation was this thing I was supposed to do afterward. Now I am enjoying meditation also.
I thank you all again. |
Edited by - JDH on Jan 17 2012 2:08:23 PM |
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Neat trick, so what
