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richilincez
Italy
24 Posts |
 Posted - Dec 27 2011 : 11:56:01 AM
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Hello everybody,
I would like some clarifications about an experience I had before encountering AYP and making it my only and core practice.
I was trying one method of a new-advaita teacher named Greg Goode.
He said to "slice down" the body by two for many times, to pinpoint the place where one feels he is, and then realize that point is being seen so it is just an object.
What I did, like he suggested, was to mentally slice it between upper and lower body, choose where I "felt" myself more to be, and so on, till I realized I was located behind my eyes in the middle of the head.
What I was feeling was like a centre that was being seen and myself at the same time, it was the closest feeling to what I defined as "myself", and it had a strong energy that was pulling me to it.
It possessed an absolute sense of self-referral.
Anyway, this experience caused a lot of mental strain, and I dropped it then and never re-experience it as intensely anytime afterwards.
What also confused me is that I tried to interpret with the teaching of Anadi, which basically says that the centre of awareness, prior to its "diffusion" around, is located there in the middle of the head. Though, he describes it as being beyond self.referral, so I got lost.
I'd like to know if anybody can explain me this experience, and if by not diving more into it I am missing anything.
Thanks a lot,
Riccardo |
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Holy
796 Posts |
Posted - Feb 24 2012 : 9:16:02 PM
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Hi richilincez,
you have discovered the cave of brahma, which is exactly right there, hidden behind immense layers upon layers of the substance of being.
AYP practices don't concentrate directly on this place, but instead work with its more dense and linked part between the eyebrows.
SBP will move through this place too and breath by breath will reduce those layers as well.
DM somehow also affects this place and moves through. So it is covered as part of a global cleaning and opening. |
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gatito
United Kingdom
179 Posts |
Posted - Feb 26 2012 : 08:18:57 AM
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Hi richilincez
The exercise to which you refer: -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZYjI6gh9RxE
is designed to show you that this sense of self is not actually self (Knowing/Being or Consciousness/Awareness) because it appears as an object to the self. It can also be seen from this excercise that the self is not actually localised. This is an intermediate step but not the final realisation, which is seeing that all objects are "made" of Knowing/Being or Consciousness/Awareness. In other words, that there are not two! 
Incidentally, Greg's not a neo-advaitan, he teaches (among other approaches such as Emptiness) the Direct Path of Sri Atmananda Krishna Menon.
I don't really know why you felt pulled into this sense of the self being located but I'd suggest that you might view it as this sense of a separate self defending itself from the realisation that it doesn't actually really exist, except as a belief/sensation!
I'm not familiar with the teaching of Anadi but you should be aware that even within Sri Atmananda's Diurect Path there are several methods (prakriyas) which are apparently contradictory and therefore you cannot really reconcile them. The preface to Atma Darshan and Atma Nirvriti explains this in more detail. So it's probably unhelpful to try to compare Anandi's approach with this excercise of Greg's, as, (to reiterate) the excercise shows that "the centre of awareness" to which Anandi refers is actually "illusory". |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Feb 26 2012 : 11:57:49 AM
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| Isn't this just none relational self inquiry with a twist. |
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gatito
United Kingdom
179 Posts |
Posted - Feb 26 2012 : 8:32:59 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by karl
Isn't this just none relational self inquiry with a twist.
No. The Direct Path is as relational as it gets.
It's a careful and critical examination of present experience, which leaves no "castle-in-the-air" unturned.
If conducted rigorously and systematically (normally over a period of years), it leaves no foothold for duality.
It's the end of all stories and the end of all story telling.
What's left?......
Now.
Everything and Nothing.
Happiness, Peace and Love |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Feb 27 2012 : 05:06:16 AM
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Except if there is no stillness present it leads to the logic loop. It's surely no different to "who is having this thought" or "I am not this, not that".
It's also only one half of a process, like Sun on the soil, it needs the rain for the plants to grow.
None duality and duality can co-exist quite happily when the conditions are right, when balance is attained. Diversity and Unity in parallel, unaffected by each other. They harmonise. |
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gatito
United Kingdom
179 Posts |
Posted - Feb 27 2012 : 08:36:49 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by karl
Except if there is no stillness present it leads to the logic loop. It's surely no different to "who is having this thought" or "I am not this, not that".
It's also only one half of a process, like Sun on the soil, it needs the rain for the plants to grow.
None duality and duality can co-exist quite happily when the conditions are right, when balance is attained. Diversity and Unity in parallel, unaffected by each other. They harmonise.
That's an interesting story and statement of opinion.
However, you seem to be confusing neo-advaita with the Direct Path.
If you want to progress your inquiry, you'll need to examine all your inherent axioms carefully.
You could start with two of the most obvious: -
How can stillness ever be absent - where could stillness go?
Advaita doesn't consist of two halves (advaita means "not-twoness"). |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Feb 27 2012 : 10:05:02 AM
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I am definitely confused by your choice of words
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gatito
United Kingdom
179 Posts |
Posted - Feb 27 2012 : 10:36:53 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by karl
I am definitely confused by your choice of words
Yes, I can see that.
Just concentrate on examining your present experience and you'll start to see through all the stories and assumptions that you're making.
Don't worry if it doesn't happen immediately, the inquiry can take years and you can't really move on before you've seen through some of the basic assumptions (like the belief in the existence of external objects). Greg tends to start people there before moving on to some of the more subtle beliefs.
As I said, you could also examine the idea that silence could go somewhere. That's something that Greg refers to as "the container model" and it's fundamental to the belief in duality (but that may not be the best starting point for you).
Hope this helps. |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Feb 27 2012 : 11:55:03 AM
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Unity means Union. Union means the bringing together of more than one part. Yoga means Union.
If you go off in search of a singularity, then you will find one part of that union. Self inquiry, while leading to union, is not in itself union and the mind is deluded into thinking it is. That can be counter productive if starting inquiry too early.
This is why "before enlightenment chop wood carry water, after enlightenment chop wood carry water".
Shiva and Shakti in perfect balance and perfect union.
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maheswari
Lebanon
2516 Posts |
Posted - Feb 27 2012 : 11:56:48 AM
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dear gatito
what Karl means is explained in the following lesson
http://www.aypsite.org/325.html
the silent witness should be well established before having successful relational self inquiry
when it is successful then unity and diversity become in harmony |
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Feb 27 2012 : 12:05:22 PM
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Oneness and nothingness are the same thing. Just two sides of the same coin. One can grow to unite with everything... Or, just eliminate everything until nothing is left... Both approaches lead to the same place.
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Feb 27 2012 : 12:31:49 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by maheswari
dear gatito
what Karl means is explained in the following lesson
http://www.aypsite.org/325.html
the silent witness should be well established before having successful relational self inquiry
when it is successful then unity and diversity become in harmony
phew, yes, that's exactly it. Thanks M.
As you know I went up the inquiry route and found this to be absolutely true It's also very difficult to see outside the self inquiry box once you have gone inside and taped up the lid. It's a very useful practice, but it can end up as its own universal law if it isn't tempered. |
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gatito
United Kingdom
179 Posts |
Posted - Feb 27 2012 : 12:41:15 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by karl
Unity means Union. Union means the bringing together of more than one part. Yoga means Union.
If you go off in search of a singularity, then you will find one part of that union. Self inquiry, while leading to union, is not in itself union and the mind is deluded into thinking it is. That can be counter productive if starting inquiry too early.
This is why "before enlightenment chop wood carry water, after enlightenment chop wood carry water".
Shiva and Shakti in perfect balance and perfect union.
It's not a search for singularity, it's quite simply a seeing that there are not two, due to a rigorous and systematic inverstigation of this sort of story. |
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gatito
United Kingdom
179 Posts |
Posted - Feb 27 2012 : 12:45:57 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by karl
quote:
Originally posted by maheswari
dear gatito
what Karl means is explained in the following lesson
http://www.aypsite.org/325.html
the silent witness should be well established before having successful relational self inquiry
when it is successful then unity and diversity become in harmony
phew, yes, that's exactly it. Thanks M.
As you know I went up the inquiry route and found this to be absolutely true It's also very difficult to see outside the self inquiry box once you have gone inside and taped up the lid. It's a very useful practice, but it can end up as its own universal law if it isn't tempered.
You could always untape the lid and examine your assumptions and beliefs in a more systematic way. That way your belief in boxes would probably dissolve. |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Feb 27 2012 : 12:50:50 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by gatito
quote:
Originally posted by karl
Unity means Union. Union means the bringing together of more than one part. Yoga means Union.
If you go off in search of a singularity, then you will find one part of that union. Self inquiry, while leading to union, is not in itself union and the mind is deluded into thinking it is. That can be counter productive if starting inquiry too early.
This is why "before enlightenment chop wood carry water, after enlightenment chop wood carry water".
Shiva and Shakti in perfect balance and perfect union.
It's not a search for singularity, it's quite simply a seeing that there are not two, due to a rigorous and systematic inverstigation of this sort of story.
Your in the box, I can tell. Been there done that. If you do a search for some older posts I was saying exactly the same thing you are saying now.
Self inquiry is not for everyone and can hamper progress.
Have a read of the link provided by Maheswari, Yogani explains it far better than I know how.
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Feb 27 2012 : 1:00:51 PM
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The coexistence of the witness with objects is not generally accepted by those engaged in the most uncompromising forms of self-inquiry, even as they engage with objects and walk about doing daily activities ranging from the mundane to the complex. Their assertion is that there are no objects. In uncompromising approaches to self-inquiry, we are instructed to let life go and reside in That which is behind the illusion. We are told, "Be the blank screen behind the movie."
It is all well and good. It is the truth. We are That and all objects are projections of That. However, this kind of thinking will only be thinking if there is no abiding witness present while such concepts are being entertained. And therein lies the problem, a flaw in the impeccable logic of pure uncompromising self-inquiry.
The premise is that if one engages in this kind of logic for long enough, then eventually the letting go that results will lead to realization, and the cognition of That which is beyond the play occurring in time and space, which is presumed to have no reality whatsoever. This "realization" can be instant. So it is said.
There is an inconsistency in this approach. Not for everyone, but for a large percentage of the population. The problem is that for those who are yet to cultivate abiding inner silence (the witness) this kind of self-inquiry will be largely intellectual. That which is being sought in letting go is a thought object in the mind also. So it is thoughts about thoughts. The mind playing with the mind. It can go on for a very long time. Talk about an illusion!
This kind of self-inquiry can lead to much trouble in life – an attitude of meaninglessness and a loss of motivation to engage in living. The very act of affirming non-duality (unmanifest Oneness) and the non-existence of duality (Oneness plus diversity) can lead to a sense of hopelessness if one is not experiencing at least a smidgen of the thing itself, the witness, the screen behind the movie of life.
I have taken this bit from the lesson by Yogani, as it is a far better explanation. |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2516 Posts |
Posted - Feb 27 2012 : 1:21:23 PM
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funny enough i am currently translating this lesson 325 into arabic
Karl i am thinking of changing my name and stick to M
a harmless M not like M in James Bond series |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Feb 27 2012 : 1:55:57 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by maheswari
funny enough i am currently translating this lesson 325 into arabic
Karl i am thinking of changing my name and stick to M
a harmless M not like M in James Bond series
Is that because I'm lazy hope you didn't mind. The M in James Bond would be really good.
I am eagerly awaiting your translation into Sanskrit |
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gatito
United Kingdom
179 Posts |
Posted - Feb 27 2012 : 2:22:16 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by karl
The coexistence of the witness with objects is not generally accepted by those engaged in the most uncompromising forms of self-inquiry, even as they engage with objects and walk about doing daily activities ranging from the mundane to the complex. Their assertion is that there are no objects. In uncompromising approaches to self-inquiry, we are instructed to let life go and reside in That which is behind the illusion. We are told, "Be the blank screen behind the movie."
It is all well and good. It is the truth. We are That and all objects are projections of That. However, this kind of thinking will only be thinking if there is no abiding witness present while such concepts are being entertained. And therein lies the problem, a flaw in the impeccable logic of pure uncompromising self-inquiry.
The premise is that if one engages in this kind of logic for long enough, then eventually the letting go that results will lead to realization, and the cognition of That which is beyond the play occurring in time and space, which is presumed to have no reality whatsoever. This "realization" can be instant. So it is said.
There is an inconsistency in this approach. Not for everyone, but for a large percentage of the population. The problem is that for those who are yet to cultivate abiding inner silence (the witness) this kind of self-inquiry will be largely intellectual. That which is being sought in letting go is a thought object in the mind also. So it is thoughts about thoughts. The mind playing with the mind. It can go on for a very long time. Talk about an illusion!
This kind of self-inquiry can lead to much trouble in life – an attitude of meaninglessness and a loss of motivation to engage in living. The very act of affirming non-duality (unmanifest Oneness) and the non-existence of duality (Oneness plus diversity) can lead to a sense of hopelessness if one is not experiencing at least a smidgen of the thing itself, the witness, the screen behind the movie of life.
I have taken this bit from the lesson by Yogani, as it is a far better explanation.
It's very kind of you to have searched out this quote for me but it does nothing to refute what I said, which was: -
"...you can't really move on before you've seen through some of the basic assumptions (like the belief in the existence of external objects)."
What's seen is that the apparently external objects are neither external nor separate.......that's non-duality......that's Advaita!!!
This is a point that you apparently didn't reach your own inquiry.
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maheswari
Lebanon
2516 Posts |
Posted - Feb 27 2012 : 2:37:14 PM
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quote:
Is that because I'm lazy hope you didn't mind. The M in James Bond would be really good.
I am eagerly awaiting your translation into Sanskrit
no i dont mind
as for lessons in sanskrit i am afraid you have to wait for a very long time cause M has now a mission with James in the Tropics |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2516 Posts |
Posted - Feb 27 2012 : 2:38:46 PM
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dear gatito
frankly i am not getting it...i will stick for now to living in the bubble of lesson 325 ... |
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gatito
United Kingdom
179 Posts |
Posted - Feb 27 2012 : 2:41:08 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by maheswari
dear gatito
frankly i am not getting it...i will stick for now to living in the bubble of lesson 325 ...
Why do you think that lesson 325 is a bubble? |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2516 Posts |
Posted - Feb 27 2012 : 2:44:45 PM
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actually i dont...but maybe it is for you cause what i understood from your posts is that this lesson is missing something?
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gatito
United Kingdom
179 Posts |
Posted - Feb 27 2012 : 2:52:54 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by maheswari
actually i dont...but maybe it is for you cause what i understood from your posts is that this lesson is missing something?
No.
I didn't say that.
I said that there's nothing in lesson 325 (or at least the quote that Karl posted) that in any way contradicts anything that I've said.
In fact........I'll happily go further than that and say that I concur entirely with the quote. |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2516 Posts |
Posted - Feb 27 2012 : 3:29:09 PM
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for now my yogic IQ is at this lesson...later will see |
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understanding of one experience
