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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
 Posted - Oct 12 2011 : 4:41:28 PM
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Well, this is interesting.
I've never done opiates before, but after a particular horrendous bout of oral surgery this morning, I popped a Vicodin a couple of hours ago, and was surprised to find that it's similar enough to the post-kundalini body/mindspace that I don't feel like it's changed much. I've always told my friends that if you could reduce yoga's bodily sensation to pill form, the pill would be worth a ton. So I guess I understand why people go nuts over vicodin, etc!
But the differences are what's interesting. Without Vicodin, I can choose to feel this way, or I can choose not to. If I allow myself to be drawn back to obsession with the external drama, this feeling goes away...but's always there to return to, all it takes is a dab of surrender. But on vicodin, there's no choice. This is where I am, this is how I feel. It's like I'm on rails; a sort of canned, artificial experience that's a lot less free and natural. My mind's slightly fuzzy, and I can't sharpen it, because I'm stuck in this one state. It's a bit cheap; a pale imitation of the natural opiates triggered by yoga.
But another facet of this feels much less "cheap": my pain really has vanished. That's involuntary, as well, but in this case, I'm grateful for the loss of free will! And it reminds me that while I live my life mostly expanded beyond identification with this body, my response to physical pain still contracts me way down to very much being in this body. I.e. when the going gets tough in that particular way, yogic detachment/expansion/silence gets real distant and theoretical!
So while I find Vicodin a little "cheap", due to the limitations on my freedom imposed by the artificial "high", there remains this one realm where I can sure use the guidance....the rails. Equanimity during physical pain is still not a choice in my repertoire (Yogani, any comment on that?).
Has anyone else out there had recent experience with opiates after long meditation practice? |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Oct 12 2011 4:46:42 PM |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Oct 12 2011 : 4:56:44 PM
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Hi Jim 
I've had extensive experience with opiates pre-yoga and a few experiences with them post-yoga. I concur with all of your observations.
With regards to equanimity during physical pain, I have noticed that it is possible, at least in some circumstances. I've noticed this mostly while getting tattooed though so perhaps that is slightly different since the pain is by choice and there is a known positive outcome of the pain.
Love!
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Ananda
3115 Posts |
Posted - Oct 12 2011 : 5:02:35 PM
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Hi Jim,
Hope you're doing much better now. Your post reminded me of Neem Karoli Baba whom after taking carton LSD/acid (don't know the exact name of the drug...) Told Ram Dass the second morning that LSD is God's incarnation in material form to show his nature to people who live in a very material world so that they may build on that peal experience and look for what is really true after that glimpse...
As for my personal experience, I've experimented with drugs in the past and enjoyed them (some, more than my usual yogic experience...) but felt very bad afterwards like toxins running through my veins... So best to stay away from this stuff...
Love,
Ananda |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Oct 12 2011 : 7:30:50 PM
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Hi Jim, Hasn't it been forever since you posted?
Anyway, talk about synchronicity, I just had oral surgery and had vicodin prescribed also! If it is an opiate, it's not a very good imitation of the original (years ago), but yes, i like the feeling with several disadvantages also.
It has a sort of shock value. If you never take it, vicodin feels great when you do. But the drug virginity is broken after the first time, and it feels like nothing if the same dosage is taken anytime near, I don't know, days, maybe weeks. Maybe it's just me.
Then a couple months later I took the same dose (second half of oral surgery), and it made me dizzy and nauseated. So what used to look to me like a delicious treat I'm saving, now has an aura of a foreign food I haven't yet developed a taste for, although I enjoyed it. I had a lot of blood loss though for a couple days, so that might change everything - you know, not enough blood to the brain. |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Oct 12 2011 : 10:06:14 PM
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Hey Ether 
quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
If it is an opiate, it's not a very good imitation of the original (years ago)
Not sure what you are calling "the original" opiate (I assume morphine), but the active ingredient in Vicodin is hydrocodone, which is indeed an opiate as it is an alkaloid directly derived from the opium poppy (papaver somniferum... I think that's how it's spelled). Codeine, morphine and dozens of other alkaloids are also considered opiates. Opiates are the alkaloids that can be directly extracted from opium latex and opiods are all opiates but also include the synthetic ones. So heroin (diacytelmorphine) is an opiod but not an opiate as it is made by combining morphine with acetic anhydride.
This has been the first installment of Opiate Education 101. 
Love!
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Oct 13 2011 : 07:49:05 AM
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| No I meant smoking opium, no chemical processing involved. the peasants would run through poppy fields with their hands out and they were coated with the kief from the opium poppies. But in those days the people selling it weren't our enemies. Since the US invaded Afghanistan, opium trade has increased greatly, but supposedly illegal trade feeds our enemies, but highly processed legal drugs don't. I don't believe it. |
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whippoorwill
USA
450 Posts |
Posted - Oct 13 2011 : 7:35:54 PM
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This thread brings to mind a little nagging worry I have... A lot of people here liken the ecstatic kundalini and meditation experiences to the feeling that opiates give you. I had demerol once after my twins' c-section. (The babies were in there sideways.) But I didn't like the feeling demerol gave me at all! That feeling of being disconnected from my body frightened the livin' daylights out of me. I'd rather be in pain! I told the nurses to just give me tylenol, and they thought I was crazy. I had vicodin after a recent surgery (reproductive health issue), and it took away the pain, but also turned the contents of my colon into bricks.  So my little nagging worry is that I'll do all this work with daily practices, and when a kundalini experience happens (if it ever does), I'll not like it at all. Silly -huh?  |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Oct 13 2011 : 8:36:57 PM
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| Yes, I don't think you have anything to worry about. Drugs have side effects, and the context they are taken in changes everything. I haven't had k rise, just constant little teasers, but I've never found spiritual experiences to have bad side effects. Not that they are all pleasant, but just that they are what they are, not like drugs with unwanted unrelated stuff dragging along. |
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amoux
United Kingdom
266 Posts |
Posted - Oct 14 2011 : 06:19:26 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by lizmoran
This thread brings to mind a little nagging worry I have... A lot of people here liken the ecstatic kundalini and meditation experiences to the feeling that opiates give you. I had demerol once after my twins' c-section. (The babies were in there sideways.) But I didn't like the feeling demerol gave me at all! That feeling of being disconnected from my body frightened the livin' daylights out of me.
I totally relate - I was given morphine i/v some years back because of excruciating gall bladder pain - and I hated it! I remember saying to the doctor "I don't like this AT ALL", and he smiled and said 'most people enjoy it'. |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2516 Posts |
Posted - Oct 14 2011 : 07:01:20 AM
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plus it is toxic....whereas yoga and enlightenment are about gradually purifying and opening the nervous system |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Oct 14 2011 : 6:20:46 PM
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| I remember loving morphine. I was in a motorcycle wreck and was in so much pain from a chunk of meat knocked out of my leg, that i couldn't talk. I was just frozen. They gave me a morphine shot, and the pain went away, I relaxed, I could talk and saw some cartoon ghost like elephants floating around. I remember thinking it was like going from hell to heaven! I wouldn't want IV though, but one shot was great. |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Oct 15 2011 : 12:40:34 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by lizmoran
This thread brings to mind a little nagging worry I have... That feeling of being disconnected from my body frightened the livin' daylights out of me. So my little nagging worry is that I'll do all this work with daily practices, and when a kundalini experience happens (if it ever does), I'll not like it at all. Silly -huh?
Lizmoran, No, not at all. In fact, it's non-silly on a few different levels.
One thing to keep in mind about spiritual practice is that if our natural predilection were to embrace stuff like god and truth and unity, then we wouldn't have spent so many years (lifetimes?) building up all this karma and scar tissue and neurosis and delusion. What are we processing and relaxing in our practices, if not a lifetime of clenching? I know lots of yoga people who talk a good game about "love 'n light", but they're as cemented in as anyone. They just don't know it. They shut that away.
We all have our shiny, well-lit inner places where we sub-consciously direct our yoga, and delight in the experience of opening. But 99% is darker/hazier and doesn't want to be disturbed. And so much of the relaxing, unwinding, acceptance, and expansion that comes with yoga is very slightly "against the grain". It's the opposite of a long time status quo.
And lots of your fellow meditators will give lip service to their realization that they're far more than just a body. But, when this is really tested, they'll show their true colors. As I wrote in my posting, give me a good jolt of physical pain, and you'll see exactly body-identified I still am! My long perspective is GONE!
So the thing you're admitting to is what everyone's got going on, at some level. And my suggestion is that this is a self-pacing issue. As your blocks are gradually scrubbed down by mantra and other practices, your mind will gradually readjust, and the fear you describe will slowly dissipate. Just keep the scrubbing carefully paced so it doesn't overrun the fear. It's the essence of self pacing.
And stay open-minded. The more you tell yourself you dislike or fear a certain thing, the more you identify yourself by that feeling. Allow at least the possibility that your feelings on this may evolve.
Make sense?
[note: I'm guessing you'll think only part of this post speaks to the specific concern you raised. But it's all related!] |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Oct 15 2011 1:03:23 PM |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Oct 15 2011 : 12:48:36 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Ananda felt very bad afterwards like toxins running through my veins... So best to stay away from this stuff...
Ananda,
And how! I took only one pill. Next day was ok-but-blurry/flat. But the day after that was absolute hell. I got almost no buzz (at least none that wasn't eclipsed by my yoga buzz), but all the hangover. I will only reserve these drugs for relieving absolutely unendurable pain.
Better today, the third day. |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Oct 15 2011 12:56:55 PM |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Oct 15 2011 : 12:56:11 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by maheswari
plus it is toxic....whereas yoga and enlightenment are about gradually purifying and opening the nervous system
Ether and maheswari,
I don't think these two posters dislike/fear the bad effects. It's the "I am not my body" effect, which is, as Amoux' doctor said, the thing most people LIKE about these drugs.
There are two kinds of people: those who've convinced themselves they're perfectly open to the metaphysical fact that they transcend their mere bodies (but if you put their body in danger or pain, they'll very rapidly change their mind on that!), and those who KNOW that they fear transcendence of the body.
The former happily enjoy their various yogic openings, but then, when the full yawing silent emptiness is identified with, and the deepest bonds of body identification drop away, they have a tendency (as virtually every spiritual teacher has written) to pull back in horror.
The latter are at least more in touch with their core drives. They're less deluded, which is good, though if they lock in an identification with that fear, it can slow them down a lot.
Over time, acceptance is inevitable. And we self pace so we can let go gradually, rather than a terrifying all-at-once. |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Oct 15 2011 1:06:42 PM |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Oct 15 2011 : 2:00:26 PM
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| That's funny, I don't feel 'I am not my body' from either vicodin or morphine. I feel completely in the body, but just more comfortable because the world is softer and fuzzier. Maybe because I've had a lot of out of body experiences and felt normal out of the body too. |
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whippoorwill
USA
450 Posts |
Posted - Oct 15 2011 : 4:09:38 PM
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Hi Jim: Yes, it makes sense and it really helps. If you don't mind hearing about another experience... I tried cosmic samyama a few months ago just on a lark. I had flopped face-down on the bed after a long day and decided to try the sutras. The relaxation was just wonderful, and then I thought "heart" and about all that wide open space in there, and all the tension between the shoulder blades just flowed away. It was truly amazing. But when I got to "Cosmos," I became absolutely terrified. The universe is so vast that I can't even begin to comprehend it, and I am so infinitesimally small. I was literally terrified that I would disappear in there and not be able to find my way back. I thought, "Liz, you are such a chicken. It's just a word." So I thought, "cosmos" and giggled in relief when nothing happened. Then I felt completely stupid. I've stayed away from cosmic samyama since then, but maybe I don't need to feel stupid about it. I tend to buffalo my way through when things get tough, and I think you're telling me to respect the fears (without identifying with them) and back off when needed. It's a message I need to hear every now and then.
I'm glad you're feeling better! I personally do not like pain and will do just about anything to avoid it. But when really bad pain happens, ibuprofen and acetaminophen usually get me to the land of good enough. And the nice thing about physical pain is that one it's gone, it's really gone. That is, I can't really remember what it feels like. Fortunately!! |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Oct 15 2011 : 5:04:01 PM
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It's funny; if, based on your first posting, above, you'd asked me to name the practice most likely to push that particular button (and thus be best avoided by you), it'd have been cosmic samyama.
Again, my suggestion is that you let this aversion be. Don't focus on it; don't chisel it into your book of likes/dislikes. Just leave it alone.
As you meditate over months and years, you may come to enjoy some gentle feelings of expansion (I'm figuring it wouldn't freak you out if I suggested that your boundaries are a little amorphous; e.g. when you touch a wall, the atoms of your hand and the atoms of the wall form a cloud?). Stay with that, and you'll come to trust. But the thing is, you can never escape you. You can certainly transcend a bunch of specific details, but have you noticed that you've brought along with you a humming intelligence everywhere you've ever gone for as long as you can remember? And it's never changed (even if you've lost or gained weight, or had sex for the first time, etc.)? That's you, and it's not something you can fall away from. You may, however, discover that you've imposed unnecessary limits on yourself. That's exactly what those previously mentioned 'specifics' are. But the silent intelligent hum, which is your fundament, couldn't be lost even if you tried. It's the only real thing!
You may feel called, eventually, to read some Advaita/Vedanta, which makes an intellectual case (and is therefore "safe", since it's only intellectual) for why you don't need to identify with being this or that, here or that. You may realize that what you are (and have always been) isn't a collection of specifics....it's the awareness that registers those specifics in the first place. It comes BEFORE the specifics. You're the Monopoly board, not the houses, hotels, or playing pieces. The screen, not the movie. You can never escape you!
So....your feelings may evolve. But no hurry. Don't push it. Don't push anything! Just keep "brushing your teeth" with the practices, as part of your daily yadda-yadda. |
Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Oct 15 2011 5:18:08 PM |
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whippoorwill
USA
450 Posts |
Posted - Oct 15 2011 : 6:40:39 PM
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No worries. I'm not the guy in the Dr. Seuss book. "I do not like green eggs and ham! I do not like them, Sam, I am!"
I can think of several examples where my point of view has evolved over time. I actually want to experience (and like) all that this spiritual path has to offer. It's really nice to know, though, that my point of view is valid, and that it's okay to not be ready for it yet. Thanks for the knowledge and the encouragement! |
Edited by - whippoorwill on Oct 15 2011 7:17:31 PM |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Oct 16 2011 : 05:15:28 AM
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| What scares me is loss of control. |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2516 Posts |
Posted - Oct 16 2011 : 07:09:41 AM
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me too Lizmoran i dont do cosmic samyama..few months back i tried it for a while but feeling disconnected from my body created so much fear in me ....so i stopped it ...
funny enough,last night during my evening sit..right after SB and before starting samyama (i only do the sutras plus I thought sutra)....i felt i was expanding ....this is the second time it happens to me in my routine sits....again i felt intense fear...i thought i was loosing myself and dying(loll).....and lots of other fears came out,is this my end? i am gona be found dead in my appartemnt,who is gona visit my mum in the hospital ( she has vascular dementia and is in a special institution)...i really felt so sick...them i remebered Ramana Maharashi who had some similar experience...then i surrendered and asked Him to take me if He wants ....then slowly the fear (like a panic attack) went away,the expanding sensation went away...and i felt very peaceful....
so today i (did not become enlightened like Ramana ...lolll) decided to incorporate cosmic samyama soon enough into my practices |
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lmaher22
USA
217 Posts |
Posted - Oct 16 2011 : 12:36:28 PM
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I was on vikes and the doc switched me to percs. I was poppin them like candy for a number of ailments, all of which nagged at me for years. Out of desparation I turned to meditation a few years ago. Since that time I'm now at almost half of what the doctor prescribes. Every so often I cut down more. Hoping to give it all up and just live with the pain again. I hate being dependent on something but sometimes the pain is unbearable. No happy medium, I guess. I think it was Liz that mentioned constipation with use? Here's the cure for that: Everynight before bed with a slightly empty tummy make a mix of polyethelene glycol, some psillium and some Sonne's powder which is psillium seeds; put lots of water in it and maybe some fruit juice. The more water the better. Day or so and bye bye consti. Hope this helps.
L. |
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whippoorwill
USA
450 Posts |
Posted - Oct 16 2011 : 12:59:14 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
What scares me is loss of control.
Me too! But there's a real difference between active surrender and loss of control. I think that's at the core of Jim's complaint about vicodin. With yoga, he can choose to feel that way or not. With vicodin, the drug is in control.
I've experienced both at various points. Loss of control happened while I was doing ER time for my EMT (Emergency Medical Technician) license. I'll leave out all the extremely gory details. I think I unconsciously stopped breathing, and blackness closed in from the peripheral vision. The next thing I knew, I was on a cot with my feet higher than my head. Very embarrassing.
The birth of my first daughter taught me active surrender. It was a drug-free childbirth, and I was ready for the experience when it happened. The method I learned from my nurse-midwife is not at all unlike yoga nidra. You focus on relaxing each part of the body and on visualizing and accepting the work the body is doing. You basically get the mind out of the body's way and let instinct take over. The pain was very real, but it was manageable. And I was very aware. It was a beautiful experience.
If I were to venture a guess, I'd say the daily work I'm doing is more like all the relaxation exercises I did to prepare for childbirth, and hopefully I'll be ready for the experience when it happens. I need to KNOW what Jim said on a deeper level than the intellect can manage. He said: "You may realize that what you are (and have always been) isn't a collection of specifics....it's the awareness that registers those specifics in the first place.... You can never escape you!"
When I know that, I'll be ready!
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whippoorwill
USA
450 Posts |
Posted - Oct 16 2011 : 1:30:56 PM
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Good luck with your cosmic samyama practice, Maheswari! I'm going to stay away from it for a while longer.
Larry, that's completely awesome that you've been able to cut down your meds! All the best to you! |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Oct 16 2011 : 11:57:39 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by lizmoran
When I know that, I'll be ready!
But FYI it's not quite as linear as that. You're not developing to a point where you metamorphize or anything like that. The humming presence that is you is blithely unblinking through all this. You've been pretending not to recognize your omnipresence for your whole life (though you've had suspicions, or else you'd not be drawn to yoga!). And you may choose, at any point, to stop pretending, but the underlying reality is what it is.....and has always been so, regardless.
There's no need at some point to compose yourself and bravely walk off a scary metaphysical cliff. You're the space this entire drama - including the fear - plays out on. "You" are BEFORE all that. So don't worry about gauging whether you're "ready". Just take it nice and easy, and enjoy. Even enjoy the pretending that you don't know yourself!  |
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whippoorwill
USA
450 Posts |
Posted - Oct 17 2011 : 10:52:21 AM
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| Thank you! |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Oct 17 2011 : 7:54:26 PM
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| You mean this thinking I might be truly crazy every few months has nothing to do with yoga?? Oh-oh. |
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Vicodin Lessons
