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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
 Posted - Aug 26 2011 : 12:12:13 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by bewell
 I get it: four candles/fork handles
What are "fork handles?"  subliminal reference to f**k handles
I know, over-analysis optional
YouTube fork handles sketch by the two Ronnies.
The two Ronnies would never use profanity, British seaside humour only  |
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GogetaSwami
India
27 Posts |
Posted - Aug 26 2011 : 12:13:59 PM
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Grasping the mind includes witnessing, self-inquiry, thinking about the NOW, thinking about the Self etc.
Primordial freedom is distinct from this, as it is beyond grasping the mind. |
Edited by - GogetaSwami on Aug 26 2011 12:20:43 PM |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Aug 26 2011 : 12:34:39 PM
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Sure, I'll bite. 
quote:
Originally posted by GogetaSwami
Primordial freedom is distinct from this, as it is beyond grasping the mind.
Believing/saying/preaching this is grasping the mind.
Love!
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GogetaSwami
India
27 Posts |
Posted - Aug 26 2011 : 12:39:24 PM
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| Of course |
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yogani
USA
5242 Posts |
Posted - Aug 26 2011 : 1:32:36 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by GogetaSwami
Grasping the mind includes witnessing, self-inquiry, thinking about the NOW, thinking about the Self etc.
Primordial freedom is distinct from this, as it is beyond grasping the mind.
Hi GogetaSwami:
"Witnessing," known by those who experience it as a natural abiding inner silence resulting from deep meditation and related practices, is not an act of the mind. It is not an act of anything. It simply is -- the blank screen of our awareness behind all that is manifest. The screen is blank, but it is alive with infinite joy and potential. It is the unmoving source of everything. It is stillness in action. It is the eternal Self of all.
Noticing witnessing is an act of mind, as is thinking about it or talking about it. So is attempting to grasp it with mind, which is impossible. The witness itself is beyond the mind and all of its functions. Yet, it can be known experientially in the here and now, and there are many names for it around the world. It is a paradox, as are most experiences relating to real spiritual progress.
It is important to be clear about this, because without a taste of witnessing experientially (cultivated in deep meditation), and a basic understanding about what it is, just about everything else we discuss about practices that depend on the witness becomes irrelevant. This includes samyama, self-inquiry, and spontaneous expressions of our evolving nature in daily life, like bhakti (spiritual desire) and karma yoga (service without expectations). It is all dependent on rising inner silence, the witness.
Perhaps from your point of view it is all irrelevant, in which case why bother with anything? It is mind denying mind. Here in AYP, we call that non-relational self-inquiry, which is non-progressive and not going to improve our spiritual condition very much. For that, we need to be cultivating the witness. 
Debating what is true or not is of little benefit. The instant we think we've "got it," we don't. In order to know the truth, we must become it. Awakening our inherent abiding inner silence is the first step in that. It is action in practices that leads to the freedom you are referring to, not proclaiming what it is or isn't with no practical means provided.
Even an enlightened person making a proclamation about the nature of liberation is on the hook, because practically no one else can know/become the truth without specific means.
So practice wisely, and enjoy!
The guru is in you.
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GogetaSwami
India
27 Posts |
Posted - Aug 26 2011 : 1:59:51 PM
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Your post reminded of some important things I forgot from the list!
Grasping the mind includes witnessing, self-inquiry, thinking about the NOW, thinking about the Self, meditation, awareness, stilling the mind etc.
Primordial freedom is distinct from this, as it is beyond grasping the mind. |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Aug 26 2011 : 2:12:09 PM
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Hi GogetaSwami
quote:
Originally posted by GogetaSwami
Your post reminded of some important things I forgot from the list!
Grasping the mind includes witnessing, self-inquiry, thinking about the NOW, thinking about the Self, meditation, awareness, stilling the mind etc.
Primordial freedom is distinct from this, as it is beyond grasping the mind.
Sounds to me like there is an awful lot of seperation that you are creating in your mind. It also sounds to me like you have put some specific words (Primordial freedom) on a pedestal. Whatever "Primordial freedom" is, it is beyond those words and the ideas you have build around them.
It also sounds to me like you have a real need to teach us all where we are going wrong with AYP. That's very kind of you to try and show us the error of our ways.
Love!
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GogetaSwami
India
27 Posts |
Posted - Aug 26 2011 : 2:38:00 PM
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If you already know about the primordial freedom that is distinct from grasping one's mind, you are free to do whatever practice you want.
But don't put the cart before the horse. |
Edited by - GogetaSwami on Aug 26 2011 2:50:47 PM |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Aug 26 2011 : 2:53:36 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by GogetaSwami
If you already know about the primordial freedom that is distinct from grasping one's mind, you are free to do whatever practice you want.
But don't put the cart before the horse.
Simply "knowing about the primordial freedom" is useless (in my experience) as it actually creates more bondage not less. Being primordial freedom is everything, and this is what practices are designed to do. They help us experience freedom for ourselves.... they strip away the idea that "I" know anything and gives us direct experience of everything.
Love!
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Aug 26 2011 : 3:18:28 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by GogetaSwami
If you already know about the primordial freedom that is distinct from grasping one's mind, you are free to do whatever practice you want.
But don't put the cart before the horse.
True. But, it is also important to remember/experience all is Tao.
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GogetaSwami
India
27 Posts |
Posted - Aug 26 2011 : 4:20:01 PM
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Hi Jeff,
There are only 3 non-nihilistic belief systems in the world:
A. Dualism
B. Nondualism / Monism
C. Dependent Origination (Buddhism)
Picking one of these as your belief system has almost nothing to do with knowing about primordial freedom. |
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Aug 26 2011 : 5:18:26 PM
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Gogetaswami,
Agreed. Just using Tao as an defined term so that there would not be confusion as experienced previously in the thread.
Primordial freedom just is. No noun, as you are implying in your statement.
Additionally, all form as other's are stating is valid, just temporary.
Or simply, all is Tao.
Have a good weekend.
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Aug 26 2011 : 6:23:55 PM
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Hmmmmmm.... an awful lot of words about not using the mind..... What's wrong with this picture?
The only problem with the mind, is when it mistakes words for real things....  |
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GogetaSwami
India
27 Posts |
Posted - Aug 26 2011 : 6:30:23 PM
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quote:
an awful lot of words about not using the mind
Not really.
There is a primordial freedom from grasping the mind.
The mind is always active. |
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manigma
India
1065 Posts |
Posted - Aug 27 2011 : 02:31:40 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by GogetaSwami
The mind is always active.
Why?
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GogetaSwami
India
27 Posts |
Posted - Aug 27 2011 : 11:12:13 AM
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Why is the mind always active?
Because according to Indian tantric physiology, the mind is a physical air (prana) in the body.
At death this air leaves through one of the orifices of the body to continue the cycle of birth and death.
Even if none of this literally true, the analogy holds pretty well.
External air and internal mind are both always moving and uncontrollable.
Another reason why they thought mind was an air/prana, is that if you gently hold your breath (kumbhaka) your mind stops. |
Edited by - GogetaSwami on Aug 27 2011 11:25:54 AM |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Aug 27 2011 : 11:32:03 AM
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| Just like with air, my mind sometimes stops, and is not always active. Granted, it is not often, and it has no trouble starting up again. I have a hard time believing that I am the only one. . . |
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manigma
India
1065 Posts |
Posted - Aug 27 2011 : 11:50:22 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by GogetaSwami
External air and internal mind are both always moving and uncontrollable.
Why?
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Aug 27 2011 : 12:24:11 PM
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Hi GogetaSwami
quote:
Originally posted by GogetaSwami
The mind is always active.
This is not my experience. I have had multiple experiences now of the mind completely shutting down without awareness "going out." The first time this happened to me it lasted for about an hour and is the reason I began searching out paths to "inner silence." This first experience of "no-mind" happened after I tried to commit suicide, failed, and then sobbed for 3 days straight (wishing I was dead) while being locked in the psyche ward of a hospital. It has happened several times since then, just never for as long. I wrote about a more recent time this happened here: http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....OPIC_ID=9344 The mind wasn't "off" for long in the experience I talk about in that thread, only about a minute or so, as early into the experience I began having visions that "brought the mind back" but there was some noticeable "no-mind" there for sure.
Essentially I agree with you in that there is a freedom (not sure why the use of the word primordial, seems kinda redundant to me) from grasping the mind. I would say that 90% of the time this is where "I" am.... in a space where the mind is active but it is known that what is happening "in there" is not me and doesn't disturb the underlying freedom being experienced here. What I *don't* understand is the desire you have to preach that this is so, nor the idea that practices don't help you find this place of freedom from grasping the mind. That is in direct opposition to my personal experience. Practices most definitely created the ability for "me" to recognize (what I would call) "the space" and what I believe you are calling "primordial freedom." I would be interested in hearing what your motivation for starting this topic is.
Love!
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GogetaSwami
India
27 Posts |
Posted - Aug 27 2011 : 1:43:45 PM
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Primordial freedom is not created nor contrived by "practices".
I know that is hard for you to accept.
Anyone can be introduced to it, even Scientologists right off the street.
P.S. Assuming they are motivated to know about primordial freedom. |
Edited by - GogetaSwami on Aug 27 2011 1:45:59 PM |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Aug 27 2011 : 1:51:25 PM
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Never said primordial freedom was created by practices. I said that practices created the ability to recognize primordial freedom.
Love!
P.S. Yes, motivation is a key for sure. And again, would love to know what *your* motivation is for starting this thread. |
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GogetaSwami
India
27 Posts |
Posted - Aug 27 2011 : 2:10:06 PM
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My understanding is that "practices" are used to to acheive an immortal body (divya deha) and omniscience. Like Shiva. Thats why I do them.
Why do you associate "practices" with recognizing one's nature? |
Edited by - GogetaSwami on Aug 27 2011 2:12:43 PM |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Aug 27 2011 : 2:13:37 PM
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I associate "practices" with realizing one's nature because that is my experience. Practices opened the space that was required for "me" to be able to recognize my self.
Love!
P.S. Your refusal to answer my question about what your motivation was for starting this thread indicates to me that you either don't know your motivation (which is an essential part of "knowing your true nature") or that your motivations weren't "pure" and that you don't want to admit it. I challenge you to seek out what your motivation for beginning this thread was. |
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GogetaSwami
India
27 Posts |
Posted - Aug 27 2011 : 2:26:18 PM
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Thats fine.
Though based on the ancient Indian tantras "practices" are used to to acheive an immortal body (divya deha) and omniscience like Shiva.
The same sort of tantricism pervades Vaishnavism, Buddhism, Jainism and Saura. Please read "The Tantric Body" by Gavin Flood for more info. |
Edited by - GogetaSwami on Aug 27 2011 2:33:40 PM |
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GogetaSwami
India
27 Posts |
Posted - Aug 27 2011 : 2:30:45 PM
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quote:
Practices opened the space that was required for "me" to be able to recognize my self.
And I recognized my nature after watching an Eckhart Tolle DVD.
Never did any spiritual practices of any kind. Not even meditation. |
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I think I "got it"
