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Yaming
Switzerland
112 Posts |
 Posted - May 31 2011 : 11:25:38 PM
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quote:
In Samadhi or Nirvana there is the absence of 'self' and 'other'. No 'enlightened being' seriously entertains either notion. Therefore they cannot entertain the notion that 'they themselves' are enlightened for 'they themselves' cease to be in enlightenment. Even the term 'enlightenment' becomes irrelevant for there is no-one to attain such a state - and 'enlightenment' is void of all states. This is explained in some detail in my (other) site...
yeah this might be true for the enlightened person. But I was trying to figure out how the unenlightened person knows that the enlightened person is really enlightened.  or if you get fooled by some guy that is smart enough to just adapt to the speaking, teaching etc of the enlightened one.
Yaming |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - May 31 2011 : 11:35:54 PM
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You really can't know because there is no such thing as a permanent goal of enlightenment. It is a continuous process. Sometimes you learn great lessons from people who are not as far as you on the path of enlightenment, and sometimes people who are known to be far along the path can mislead people, or slip and do wrong things.
This is the danger of putting gurus on a pedestal.
The bright side is that consistent meditation leads you to inner silence, and finding your inner guru, who will guide you to the lessons you need. For me those lessons come from a wide variety of places; unenlightened people who aren't even trying to show me anything, animals, inanimate objects.
Enlightened people can inspire us, but don't try to follow them; follow your inner guru. |
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Yaming
Switzerland
112 Posts |
Posted - Jun 01 2011 : 12:27:41 AM
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quote:
You really can't know because there is no such thing as a permanent goal of enlightenment. It is a continuous process.
Yeah but than there is no sense in even using this word. It means nothing and loses its purpose. A word is here so you know what you are talking about. You define it and there are certain criterias that have to be met to be able to use this word.
So if there aren't any criterias and one just simply can't know if someone is enlightened you can't even say "Enlightened people can inspire us, but don't try to follow them".
But according to AYP there are certain criterias, like the rise of inner silence or ecstatic conductivity etc. And I feel inclined to belive that those qualities can be perceived by other people. As any inner quality it will effect the behaviour that one has on other people.
For me the whole enlightened concept seems rather vague. Maybe because I never encountered someone that seemed very far on this path and I am at the very beginning myself. |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2516 Posts |
Posted - Jun 01 2011 : 02:34:58 AM
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| very well said kannada txs |
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kannada
Australia
29 Posts |
Posted - Jun 01 2011 : 05:36:00 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Yaming
quote:
In Samadhi or Nirvana there is the absence of 'self' and 'other'. No 'enlightened being' seriously entertains either notion. Therefore they cannot entertain the notion that 'they themselves' are enlightened for 'they themselves' cease to be in enlightenment. Even the term 'enlightenment' becomes irrelevant for there is no-one to attain such a state - and 'enlightenment' is void of all states. This is explained in some detail in my (other) site...
yeah this might be true for the enlightened person. But I was trying to figure out how the unenlightened person knows that the enlightened person is really enlightened. or if you get fooled by some guy that is smart enough to just adapt to the speaking, teaching etc of the enlightened one.
Yaming
Many of the teachings explain what 'enlightenment' is. Have you read Shankaras Vivekachudamani http://www.celextel.org/summaryofve...udamani.html - the Advaita Bodha Deepika http://www.ressign.com/images/spiri...-Deepika.pdf or the works of Ramana Maharshi? There is a wealth of knowledge on the qualities of the guru and how to recognize one if you are seriously trying to find one.
A competent teacher will lead you to the still mind, that is where you will find the true guru, the sat-guru. Ramana Maharshi once said that the highest teaching was found in silence and the 'teachings' were for those who were unable to understand that silence. So go up to that silence and see if a guru is still required. Let that silence be your guru. That silence will never deceive you... |
Edited by - kannada on Jun 01 2011 06:17:08 AM |
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mufad
44 Posts |
Posted - Jun 02 2011 : 12:28:18 PM
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kannada,
thanks for links to vivekchudamani and lamp of nondual knowledge.
Do you feel reading these books will help a spiritual seeker, or will it be just more concepts until it is experienced ?
silence will never deceive ... ha ? did you say something ;-)
Thanks. |
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BuddhiHermit
United Kingdom
84 Posts |
Posted - Jun 02 2011 : 6:31:25 PM
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Yaming, There is no conclusive way with which every unenlightened person can identify an enlightened person. You could walk right past one, and never know. Thus, many are fooled.
What I term enlightenment, is when the self has left for good.
Some side-effects of a lack of self include inducing peace and joy in those around, and a tendency for the speech to be poetic.
There is also a certain grammar that is frequently (but not always) used.
The ability to tell increases as your own inner silence increases.
Namaste
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Jun 02 2011 : 6:53:29 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Yaming
quote:
You really can't know because there is no such thing as a permanent goal of enlightenment. It is a continuous process.
Yeah but than there is no sense in even using this word. It means nothing and loses its purpose. A word is here so you know what you are talking about. You define it and there are certain criterias that have to be met to be able to use this word.
So if there aren't any criterias and one just simply can't know if someone is enlightened you can't even say "Enlightened people can inspire us, but don't try to follow them".
But according to AYP there are certain criterias, like the rise of inner silence or ecstatic conductivity etc. And I feel inclined to belive that those qualities can be perceived by other people. As any inner quality it will effect the behaviour that one has on other people.
For me the whole enlightened concept seems rather vague. Maybe because I never encountered someone that seemed very far on this path and I am at the very beginning myself.
I didn't say there are no criteria, in fact in the yoga FAQ, there is a definition of enlightenment:
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....OPIC_ID=2148
What I said is it is not a final, permanent state; it is a process. In other words, there is not a place where you say "OK, I'm finished. I am enlightened and have nothing more to change."
What i meant by enlightenment being a process is that enlightenment is a path. It doesn't have an end. It is common for a beginner to see someone farther along on the path, and think they are done. But the person farther along will tell you they see more path ahead of them.
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Yaming
Switzerland
112 Posts |
Posted - Jun 02 2011 : 10:47:41 PM
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Oh I understand what you mean Etherfish. I know that. It was discussed earlier or in some other topic. Even when you get to a profound level you are not fully enlightened because we are all one and as long as there is someone else who isn't enlightened you are neither fully enlightened.
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kannada
Australia
29 Posts |
Posted - Jun 03 2011 : 05:21:32 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by mufad
kannada,
thanks for links to vivekchudamani and lamp of nondual knowledge.
Do you feel reading these books will help a spiritual seeker, or will it be just more concepts until it is experienced ?
silence will never deceive ... ha ? did you say something ;-)
Thanks.
Hi Mufad,
The written and verbal teachings are like an inoculation against the disease of samsara. Only the correct dose should be administered and hopefully by a competent ‘doctor’. You need to know enough to appreciate how the disease arose in the first place, so that it may not re-occur. What to do about it and what to expect when the medicine defeats the disease.
Endless reading and theorizing becomes itself a part of the disease - and sometimes an all consuming part. Most people use so much of the inoculation that we can take bets on whether these patients will die from the disease or its cure... haha!
They are both excellent books. Especially the ABD's last chapter on Manonasa.
e.g. page 107...
34. D.: Let it be so. How can the mind be extinguished?
M.: To forget everything is the ultimate means. But for
thought, the world does not arise. Do not think and it will not
arise. When nothing arises in the mind, the mind itself is lost.
Therefore do not think of anything, forget all. This is the best
way to kill the mind.
35-37. D.: Has anyone else said so before?
M.: Vasishta said so to Rama thus: ‘Efface thoughts of all
kinds, of things enjoyed, not enjoyed, or otherwise. Like wood
or stone, remain free from thoughts.
Rama: Should I altogether forget everything?
Vasishta: Exactly; altogether forget everything and remain
like wood or stone.
Rama: The result will be dullness like that of stones or
wood.
Vasishta: Not so. All this is only illusion. Forgetting the
illusion, you are freed from it. Though seeming dull, you
will be the Bliss Itself. Your intellect will be altogether clear
and sharp. Without getting entangled in worldly life, but
appearing active to others remain as the very Bliss of Brahman
and be happy. Unlike the blue colour of the sky, let not the
illusion of the world revive in the pure Ether of Consciousness-Self. To forget this illusion is the sole means to
kill the mind and remain as Bliss. Though Shiva, Vishnu, or
Brahman Himself should instruct you, realisation is not
possible without this one means.
Without forgetting everything, fixity as the Self is impossible. Therefore altogether forget everything.’
Regards...
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Edited by - kannada on Jun 03 2011 05:46:22 AM |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Jun 03 2011 : 7:24:45 PM
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kannada wrote:
"Endless reading and theorizing becomes itself a part of the disease - and sometimes an all consuming part"
I agree wholeheartedly! People have so much desire to experience "the bliss" or whatever, that they try to create a representation of it in their mind; they think they need just the right kind of information to create that perfect image, then they intend to make it real. In doing so they are missing the boat; creating representations in your mind is exactly what we are trying to stop doing. . .
They are trying to create an image of themselves not creating images, then they intend to take action on it. . . |
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_Yogi_
USA
26 Posts |
Posted - Nov 29 2011 : 7:50:49 PM
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I think I might know. I've read the way to tell if someone's fully enlightened is if they are in Bhairavi mudra. It's where they have a blank gaze not blinking often because their awareness is turned inwards, they are unconcerned with the world. I've seen a couple gurus who look like that. The first one I saw like that I could tell he was enlightened.
"Bhairavi mudra This is a kind of psycho-physical condition brought about by the following practice 'Attention should be turned inwards; the gaze should be turned outwards, without the twinkling of the eyes'."
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Mikananda
USA
90 Posts |
Posted - Nov 29 2011 : 11:23:33 PM
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| When one is in the present of an "enlightened one." There is nothing that needs to be said. One just knows. You feel it everywhere. If you want to know if a guru is true look at his followers |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Nov 30 2011 : 03:01:40 AM
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It does not matter what you perceive, everything is Guru one way or another. Better just to carry and work on yourself. It's direct.
It's like two men painting opposite ends of bridge. One thinks the other is somehow faster, so he sits and studies his techniques and attitudes. He studies for so long that By the time his new mentor has reached the centre of the bridge he realises that he has not even begun. His mentor packs away his brushes and then points to the other end of the bridge, saying " don't you have work to do? "
Gurus come and go, you are always. Paint your end of the bridge. |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Nov 30 2011 : 08:16:08 AM
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Ha ha, good analogy Karl.
Someone might say they want to learn the best techniques from experts. It's just like painting the bridge - two minutes to learn, then many hours of practice.
Some painters will paint for an hour, then spend the rest of the day looking at other painters to try and discover better techniques, when they would develop their own "better technique" by just painting.
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Nov 30 2011 : 10:54:33 AM
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Of course Ether.
Obviously There is a capacity to learn a skill, but in many ways, apart from some minor coaching. Then Enlightenment or whatever, comes in its own time. Trying to discover some special or secret way is fools Gold. We already have the tools in AYP.
Too long gazing at the finger pointing at the Moon to see the Moon itself. as Bruce Lee said in enter the dragon. |
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Mikananda
USA
90 Posts |
Posted - Nov 30 2011 : 5:52:17 PM
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Greetings fellow yogis
Then to answer Yaming question, you are saying we don't know. Or who cares? Or perhaps you are implying that Bruce Lee is enlighten. You have lost me. By the way, Bruce Lee got that idea from the Lord Buddha. It is interesting to note that everything that has been said is based upon someone elses thinking. Be that Christ, Kishna, Buddha or Yogani. When qualifying ones statements I never or very rarely hear someone says my inner guru said this or my inner guru says that. Was the lord Buddha an enlightened being? If so, do enligthened beings still exist today? If so then where are they? Did man creat himself? |
Edited by - Mikananda on Nov 30 2011 6:58:05 PM |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Nov 30 2011 : 7:13:26 PM
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I am saying you can't tell, and it doesn't matter. I assume the question was because some people want to find an enlightened person, and learn from them how to become enlightened. But that's not a good way. Gurus have a style of teaching, and you must find one whose style you like. But your inner guru will usually teach much quicker than an outer guru.
If you are set on finding an outer guru, then don't worry about if they are enlightened. Just look for a teacher with a style you like, and see if you can learn from him. Enlightenment doesn't come with the ability to teach, and many unenlightened teachers have excellent teaching skills.
Yes, enlightened beings exist today, and they are everywhere. They are not going around proclaiming it, and I suspect many of them wouldn't want people following them and inquiring about the subject. They follow what their inner guru gives them to do, and their lives are probably pretty full.
No I never tell people my inner guru says this or that. That is just asking for trouble. But it is not necessary because my inner guru shows me things in the real world to pay attention to, and if I want to talk about them I don't mention who showed them to me.
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Mikananda
USA
90 Posts |
Posted - Nov 30 2011 : 7:20:01 PM
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| What is wrong with having both? A question: Why do you follow the AYP way? |
Edited by - Mikananda on Nov 30 2011 7:57:05 PM |
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Mikananda
USA
90 Posts |
Posted - Nov 30 2011 : 7:31:21 PM
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A blind man was once healed by Christ. The jewish leaders were upset and sent for the man. They asked him if he thought Jesus was the messiah. The man responsed, I do not know about such things. All I know is that I was once blind and now I can see.
quote:
Originally posted by Yaming
quote:
In Samadhi or Nirvana there is the absence of 'self' and 'other'. No 'enlightened being' seriously entertains either notion. Therefore they cannot entertain the notion that 'they themselves' are enlightened for 'they themselves' cease to be in enlightenment. Even the term 'enlightenment' becomes irrelevant for there is no-one to attain such a state - and 'enlightenment' is void of all states. This is explained in some detail in my (other) site...
yeah this might be true for the enlightened person. But I was trying to figure out how the unenlightened person knows that the enlightened person is really enlightened. or if you get fooled by some guy that is smart enough to just adapt to the speaking, teaching etc of the enlightened one.
Yaming
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Edited by - Mikananda on Nov 30 2011 9:04:11 PM |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Nov 30 2011 : 11:39:02 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Mikananda
What is wrong with having both? A question: Why do you follow the AYP way?
Both of what?
I like the open style of teaching here, and it's very effective for me. |
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Yaming
Switzerland
112 Posts |
Posted - Dec 01 2011 : 12:59:39 AM
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The question was not posted with the intention of finding a guru. I just simply wanted to know how people see it. Since there is no clear definition of what enlightement an enlightened person is or can, there are many people out there just claiming that they are enlightened. It's like with science. How many so called phds, or are even professors, are out there, when you actually look closer into it, they got it from some weird organization, lack publications etc. And worse, their scientific claims totally lack any foundation.
Nowdays any idiot writes in his articles or books: Science has discovered... blablabla and when you look at it you see that the study was based on 30 people taking a test. It's like a gateway to make people believe you. And it actually works with most of them! :/
The same is true with enlightement. Some dude claims he is so called enlightened and just vomits all over the place, what he has read or heared from someone else (of course he/she doesn't say that).
For my analytical mind I need cirterias and I need verfications, that the claims that are spread all over spiritual literature are true. How is this field supposed to become a science if there is lack of definitions and clarity?
Anyways, I totally agree with what has been said and so I go and paint my bridge! Better watch out to not stare at me and miss painting yours :p hahaha |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Dec 01 2011 : 04:50:42 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Mikananda
Greetings fellow yogis
Then to answer Yaming question, you are saying we don't know. Or who cares? Or perhaps you are implying that Bruce Lee is enlighten. You have lost me. By the way, Bruce Lee got that idea from the Lord Buddha. It is interesting to note that everything that has been said is based upon someone elses thinking. Be that Christ, Kishna, Buddha or Yogani. When qualifying ones statements I never or very rarely hear someone says my inner guru said this or my inner guru says that. Was the lord Buddha an enlightened being? If so, do enligthened beings still exist today? If so then where are they? Did man creat himself?
Everything is a Guru if you know how to look. Learn how to look and then it will be clear. All answers and questions arise from the same place. Look for that place and there will not be any need for either.
Start with the only thing you really know and work backwards to the source of the answers and questions.
Stop blaming the finger Get as angry as you like it won't make any difference to the finger, the only person getting frustrated is the one who will not look where it points.
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Dec 01 2011 : 08:21:56 AM
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I agree Karl, and well said.
Yaming, if you are not looking for a guru, then why do you need to know if someone is enlightened?
You are basically asking how to check their credentials, but you also said credentials are meaningless.
A good scientist has developed critical thinking, and isn't fooled by credentials. He looks at the work, the number and type of studies, and he doesn't "believe" anything, he just says "That hypothesis is beginning to look true based on the studies so far, but additional studies need to be done".
What is lacking today is people with critical thinking abilities like this. The media is partially to blame because they teach that you can completely judge a person based on one sound byte. People vote for or against a politician because of one thing he said, taken out of context.
Yoga is different however. What is important is what works for you. That is why AYP is a good way to convey the information. Instead of following one authority, we are communicating between students what works. This is much more efficient because everyone is not the same, but there are commonalities. |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Dec 01 2011 : 12:34:56 PM
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To me, this all comes down to honing our ability to be true to that which resonates deep within us. We can mentally evaluate any and everyone, make mental judgments about them, label, distiguish and make decisions about whether or not we think they are enlightened or not... but really, at least to me, what my mind thinks about something/one really doesn't matter. The mind is fickel, is constantly having "perspective shifts" and is always changing it's opinions. To me, it's all about being true to the silent resonance(s) felt inside. Much better, in my opinion, to learn to look at, recognize and act on the subtle wordless resonances than to sharpen the minds ability to catagorize, separate and label everything/one. Just my two cents.
Love!
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How do you know that the person is enlightened?
