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bewell
1275 Posts |
 Posted - Feb 15 2011 : 11:36:52 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
Daily practices help to clarify the nature of enlightenment in both self and others infinitely more than discussion can. This is because practices open us in the direction of enlightenment. Discussions may or may not do so, and they have at least a fifty-fifty chance of doing the opposite (keeping us stuck in the dream based on ideas).
Kirtanman
I like your point about practices. But I find myself wondering what that means for you in practice. Thus, I have a couple of questions for your consideration.
First, would you be willing to share what your AYP practices are? If AYP Deep Meditation is in your routine, please include the physical posture you use during that practice normally. I will understand if it seems too personal, but I am curious. Secondly, would you be willing to share when and how completely you did those practices during the 24 hours just prior to the first time you laid eyes on this question? Please include mention of physical posture used in DM.
Thanks in advance for your attention. I assume you have foreseen it, but just so other readers know that I know you know... As I assume you know, this is my test of the your enlightenment in terms of "form" (for now). I wish you good luck.
Bewell |
Edited by - bewell on Feb 15 2011 11:41:40 AM |
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mikkiji
USA
219 Posts |
Posted - Feb 15 2011 : 7:12:33 PM
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"Those who know do not speak. Those who speak do not know."
Lao-tze from the Tao Teh Ching |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Feb 15 2011 : 7:26:39 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by mikkiji
"Those who know do not speak. Those who speak do not know."
Lao-tze from the Tao Teh Ching
Interesting how he excludes himself, since this statement is written, not spoken. . .because if this statement was spoken - think about it. . . |
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bewell
1275 Posts |
Posted - Feb 15 2011 : 7:51:09 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by mikkiji
"Those who know do not speak. Those who speak do not know."
Lao-tze from the Tao Teh Ching
Mikkiji
It might be useful for us to know a little about why you quoted that saying in this context. What does it mean to you?
Since it was written after my question to Kirtanman, and after 7+ hours of his not responding, I thought it might imply that you thought Kirtanman had read the question and chose not to speak, wisely so. Is that your intended implication? If so, I grant that it may be very wise not to reply to my question, and Kirtanman might in fact be wise in that particular way.
Of course there is also the possibility that he did not see or read the question (yet), or simply did not have time, or energy to reply.
This is just my thought process. I would like to hear a bit of yours as it relates to your sharing above. (By the way, I would also welcome your response to my question in terms of your AYP practices, what they are and in what degree you have done them in the 24 hours just before reading this question.)
Bewell
PS As for my practices, I did a morning sit of 20min of AYP DM followed by AYP samyama (w/ "I thought, Who am I?). I did an afternoon sit of 20 min of DM in a group context, and did not do samyama. Also, in the am, I used amaroli for a nasal wash, and as a drink. I ordinarily sit crossed legged in a soft chair with a pillow giving my lower back extra support. In the group sit this noon, I sat straight backed with feet flat on the floor and hands on lap, palms facing up, one on top the other.
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Edited by - bewell on Feb 15 2011 8:03:59 PM |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Feb 15 2011 : 8:18:24 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by bewell
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
Daily practices help to clarify the nature of enlightenment in both self and others infinitely more than discussion can. This is because practices open us in the direction of enlightenment. Discussions may or may not do so, and they have at least a fifty-fifty chance of doing the opposite (keeping us stuck in the dream based on ideas).
Kirtanman
I like your point about practices. But I find myself wondering what that means for you in practice. Thus, I have a couple of questions for your consideration.
First, would you be willing to share what your AYP practices are? If AYP Deep Meditation is in your routine, please include the physical posture you use during that practice normally. I will understand if it seems too personal, but I am curious. Secondly, would you be willing to share when and how completely you did those practices during the 24 hours just prior to the first time you laid eyes on this question? Please include mention of physical posture used in DM.
Thanks in advance for your attention. I assume you have foreseen it, but just so other readers know that I know you know... As I assume you know, this is my test of the your enlightenment in terms of "form" (for now). I wish you good luck.
Bewell
Hi Bewell,
I'm more than happy to answer your question or questions, but I'm not sure I understand them, or the basis for them.
If there's any way you can clarify or rephrase, that would be much appreciated.
Just to clarify to all:
What I wrote above was a general comment about practices vs. discussion, and not tied to anyone's practices or specific forms of practice.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
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Edited by - Kirtanman on Feb 15 2011 8:25:37 PM |
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bewell
1275 Posts |
Posted - Feb 15 2011 : 8:52:36 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
I'm more than happy to answer your question or questions, but I'm not sure I understand them, or the basis for them.
Kirtanman
The question being discussed on this thread is: "How do you know that the person is enlightened?"
You are the person who wrote: "Daily practices help to clarify the nature of enlightenment in both self and others infinitely more than discussion can." You wrote a lot of other things too -- things that to be frank, sound very "enlightened."
It got me wondering how in your own daily life you put your enlightenment theory to use with AYP practices. My criterion of discernment was that the greater the degree of congruence between theory and practice, the greater the degree of "enlightenment."
Bewell
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bewell
1275 Posts |
Posted - Feb 15 2011 : 9:20:25 PM
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| PS My heart was beating fast, and my body is trembling as I pondered my question above. Then I did some "self-inquiry" and it helped calm my body. |
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bewell
1275 Posts |
Posted - Feb 15 2011 : 10:01:14 PM
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| PPS After sitting in reflection on what you have shared so far in this thread and what I know of you elsewhere, I have no doubt that the word "enlightened" describes what I see in you. I think what I want to know more of is how that works out in your specific choice of AYP practices, and how those practices relate to your daily experience. Also, I appreciate your attention. |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Feb 15 2011 : 10:19:39 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by bewell
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
I'm more than happy to answer your question or questions, but I'm not sure I understand them, or the basis for them.
Kirtanman
The question being discussed on this thread is: "How do you know that the person is enlightened?"
You are the person who wrote: "Daily practices help to clarify the nature of enlightenment in both self and others infinitely more than discussion can." You wrote a lot of other things too -- things that to be frank, sound very "enlightened."
It got me wondering how in your own daily life you put your enlightenment theory to use with AYP practices. My criterion of discernment was that the greater the degree of congruence between theory and practice, the greater the degree of "enlightenment."
Bewell
Hi Bewell,
Thanks; that helps clarify.
Again, I meant what I said about practices
quote:
Daily practices help to clarify the nature of enlightenment in both self and others infinitely more than discussion can. This is because practices open us in the direction of enlightenment. Discussions may or may not do so, and they have at least a fifty-fifty chance of doing the opposite (keeping us stuck in the dream based on ideas).
... as a statement regarding the value of practices vs. the value of discussions about enlightenment, that's all. Many people seem to think that enlightenment can be figured out with mind-forms, and it can't.
This includes enlightenment in experience, as well as evaluation of anyone else's enlightenment.
Practices are basically following a map, a map which opens us to the reality that is always ever here, and that we each and all ever actually are, now.
Once this has been realized, practices aren't really practices in the original sense of the term, though sitting in silence and such can still happen.
I respectfully disagree with your hypothesis by the way, though there is a certain logic to it ... it just differs with my own experiences and observation, which is: the amount of meditation and other yogic activities (whether termed "practices" or not) varies widely, for those who have realized their true nature in ongoing experience.
For me, something much like AYP Deep Meditation still tends to happen daily, but there's not a need for it and nothing to get from it ... it seems somewhat akin to exercising a bit after reaching exercise goals ... just for enjoyment, and per overall benefits to the system (all of it, which includes all).
Physical posture doesn't really matter in my case now, though it was very, very helpful for several years ... I didn't deviate at all from textbook AYP until somewhat over a year ago, which inner knowing directed. This is something we can all experience at the right time, and in my case, it didn't come up until roughly five years into AYP.
All form practices, postures and such are supports ... and they can be very valuable supports. That's why I've never agreed with the neo-advaita view that "practices aren't necessary". I have yet to see anyone who does not practice (and I include inquiry in the overall term "practice"), who can sustain any realization they made have had.
In my own case, realization has been completely consistent for quite some time (since I first posted of it here, whenever that was ... over a year, I think).
I'm moving away from calling it enlightenment, not because anything has changed, but because even hinting at enlightenment in experience can elicit all kinds of questions and challenges which tend to serve as a distraction for everyone.
If I have a certain experience or view, I share it, in the same way we all do. There's no implication in that sharing that my experience is higher or better than anyone else's. Sharing from experience honestly and openly is beneficial for us all, I feel.
Oh, and by the way: the "meditation" that has happened in the last 24 hours was comprised of two sessions:
Once, before going to sleep last night, when I just opened in samadhi (while laying flat in bed .... "quasi-savasana"  ). The only difference between that, and say, this moment, is that there's more involvement with form than there is then; daily activity tends to be like that, but it doesn't lessen awareness of-as wholeness; that's just how it is.
That "session" lasted maybe a half hour, and then I went into normal sleep, which is standard for me.
This morning, shortly after awakening from sleep, I (spontaneously) began meditating, with spinal breathing for a few minutes (this happens sometimes, presumably to help the body-mind and related energies somehow; I just go with it. )
That lasted for maybe twenty minutes, and I got up and went about my day.
I also experience samyama (the most accurate way I know to say it), both at times in so-called sitting practices (aka lying down / kicking back against pillows on my bed practices ), and then just spontaneously ... where the "what" to samyama, and its release into silence/wholeness happens as kind of one movement, as does the manifestation of the result, often very quickly. Nothing of the "major siddhi" type, more just "samyama in daily life". Point Being: that aspect of AYP is a very powerful operation within overall consciousness that in my experience has become spontaneous/automatic.
And regarding anyone's enlightenment (understanding how problematic the "anyone"/someone aspect can be, in terms of eliciting confusion in people) ... I'd say that if there's a question to ask, it's:
Do I resonate with that person?
With their teachings, if any?
With their demeanor, etc.?
If so, maybe that's a person it can be helpful to know. If not, well, we're all different in terms of who the body-mind resonates with, and maybe that's not a person we'll want to "hang out with", whether online, in person, or wherever.
Nisargadatta says that the peace we feel in someone's presence is a good indicator of whether that's a person/teacher that might be helpful to us.
I hope that's useful. If you have any further questions I'm more than happy to try to answer them.
I actually think we're likely to see a diminishing of the term enlightenment here, and in other spiritual circles, and I think that's useful, actually; it's a very "charged" term, as I'm guessing many will agree.
Terms I'm currently liking better are:
Wholeness
Openness
Oneness
Love
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
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Edited by - Kirtanman on Feb 15 2011 10:28:13 PM |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Feb 15 2011 : 10:23:07 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by bewell
PPS After sitting in reflection on what you have shared so far in this thread and what I know of you elsewhere, I have no doubt that the word "enlightened" describes what I see in you. I think what I want to know more of is how that works out in your specific choice of AYP practices, and how those practices relate to your daily experience. Also, I appreciate your attention.
Hi Bewell,
Thanks for these brief updated posts; I really appreciate your authenticity and candor.
Hopefully my other post just now answered your questions, but if there's anything else you'd like to discuss, please just ask.
Thanks again.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
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bewell
1275 Posts |
Posted - Feb 15 2011 : 11:13:38 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
For me, something much like AYP Deep Meditation still tends to happen daily, but there's not a need for it and nothing to get from it ... it seems somewhat akin to exercising a bit after reaching exercise goals ... just for enjoyment, and per overall benefits to the system (all of it, which includes all).
Physical posture doesn't really matter in my case now, though it was very, very helpful for several years ... I didn't deviate at all from textbook AYP until somewhat over a year ago, which inner knowing directed.
Thanks Kirtanman,
That is what I wanted to know. It puts me at ease, makes me feel like I know where you are coming from in the realm of form.
I don't care at all anymore about testing whether you are so-called "enlightened."
Be |
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manigma
India
1065 Posts |
Posted - Feb 16 2011 : 03:04:29 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
I have a friend who is a professional hip hop dancer. Really nice guy although not trustworthy or law abiding. If you attack him he is never surprised and just laughs. He must be enlightened.
How old are you Etherfish?
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Feb 16 2011 : 07:29:04 AM
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Yaming
Switzerland
112 Posts |
Posted - Feb 16 2011 : 3:46:07 PM
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Thanks everyone for all the replies. I started to realize that the concept here of enlightement is different than the one I heared from my first meditation instructor. He believed that once you re-open the 3rd eye, you are enlightened. After that you need to face the wall for several years before you can leave your physical body behind.
What I realized here is that all of you are looking at it as a continues evolving process. And that there is not a sudden moment of enlightement. I definatley like the AYP practices since they do not require to isolate the practitioner from outside distraction in order to evolve spiritualy towards enlightement (...now I have a hard time to use the word lol). |
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manigma
India
1065 Posts |
Posted - Feb 17 2011 : 07:13:19 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
61
Great!
And what is your age during Samadhi?
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Feb 17 2011 : 08:31:04 AM
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Assuming that is rhetorical, returning to meditation.  |
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manigma
India
1065 Posts |
Posted - Feb 17 2011 : 11:29:17 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
Assuming that is rhetorical, returning to meditation.
LOL!
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machart
USA
342 Posts |
Posted - Feb 18 2011 : 12:33:32 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
61
Impressive Etherfish!
Just proves that meditation keeps your mind young...from your humorous posts I would think that you are really much younger than your chronological age indicates!
Just to add to the main thread...I think a person who is happy most of the time ..and implements the methods/practices/habits to keep them happy and healthy...is pretty much enlightened. |
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abhijit
India
6 Posts |
Posted - Apr 26 2011 : 10:37:32 PM
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| can you recommend some links to scriptures upanishad where signs of enlightenment are given |
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Babu
Australia
9 Posts |
Posted - May 10 2011 : 06:01:27 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by manigma
quote:
Originally posted by Yaming
So there is no clear sign. You will feel it. Do I understand that correct?
There is another method which is tried and tested by me on various Gurus.
- While touching their feet, swear at them.
- Try to pounce/attack them.
- Do strange things to surprise them.
Don't do this when the Guru is delivering sermon to mass public. But only when he is meeting few people (guests etc) in idle time and replying to their questions.
I have been beaten and thrown out of ashrams several times for doing such things.
The fakers always get confused and want me away as early as possible. They would show some pity for me and declare me sick/mad.
You have to watch the reaction and behaviour of the Guru very carefully. The Enlightened ones show no sweat, no surprised reaction... even if they react its so cool and effortless. Once a Guru blocked my attack so effortlessly with a smile and then told me to go back and sit. He didn't even look at me.
The real ones are so calm yet so agile... unbelievably conscious.
sorry(NOT) but that is really funny, like really funny. ID just imagine some ego head pretender getting totally freaked out by you touching their feet hahaha and swearing at them hahahhaahhaha. Im pretty sure if someone did that to me, ID laugh my ASS of, hahaha so IM obviously not calm and so agile, and still have a way to go. HEY when I feel im close, what about you come around to my place of residence and give the once over hahahaaaha and I have heard the gossip, that they are all pretenders, Some know it, some dont. Some perhaps understand and are a willing to do so. but so funny seeing this. I haven't returned to a post more in one hour for I cant remember when. hahahha |
Edited by - Babu on May 10 2011 10:15:42 PM |
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nirmal
Germany
438 Posts |
Posted - May 27 2011 : 01:32:48 AM
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Hi people,
What I use to tell myself if a person is enlightened or not is to look into their eyes.If there is Love there, then to me they are enlightened. You see it in all the great masters. It' impossible to fake that.
Love,
nirmal |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2520 Posts |
Posted - May 27 2011 : 02:14:06 AM
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| also if your mind stops. |
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Yaming
Switzerland
112 Posts |
Posted - May 27 2011 : 02:48:37 AM
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quote:
Numerous bewildered seekers in the West erroneously think that an eloquent speaker or writer on metaphysics must be a master. The rishis, however, have pointed out that the acid test of a master is a man's ability to enter at will the breathless state, and to maintain the unbroken SAMADHI of NIRBIKALPA. {FN21-5} Only by these achievements can a human being prove that he has "mastered" MAYA or the dualistic Cosmic Delusion. He alone can say from the depths of realization: "EKAM SAT,"-"Only One exists."
(Autobiography of a yogi, chapter 21).
Sounds like a good test to me. |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2520 Posts |
Posted - May 27 2011 : 04:37:08 AM
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| as outsiders we never know for sure...only a realized person can know for sure that another person is realized or not.... |
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kannada
Australia
29 Posts |
Posted - May 31 2011 : 08:46:35 AM
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In Samadhi or Nirvana there is the absence of 'self' and 'other'. No 'enlightened being' seriously entertains either notion. Therefore they cannot entertain the notion that 'they themselves' are enlightened for 'they themselves' cease to be in enlightenment. Even the term 'enlightenment' becomes irrelevant for there is no-one to attain such a state - and 'enlightenment' is void of all states. This is explained in some detail in my (other) site...
http://the-dharmin.yolasite.com/ |
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How do you know that the person is enlightened?
