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Yaming
Switzerland
112 Posts |
 Posted - Feb 13 2011 : 12:16:52 AM
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quote:
Because spirituality is outside the world of logic. It belongs to another world where logic doesn't apply.
True, but on the other hand the enlightened one is right now in this physical world and I'm pretty sure that his/her enlightement has an impact on us. I guess I'll have to come back if I reach enlightement... Hopefully I'll be reborn in an age where this forum and this thread exists  , otherwise I'll better try to get it in this lifetime lol |
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manigma
India
1065 Posts |
Posted - Feb 13 2011 : 01:09:24 AM
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@Etherfish: I repeat. Its impossible to shake/surprise/shock an Enlightened one. They rest beyond mind in consciousness - 24/7. They are so deep to reach and be shaken. Its like being in a state of coma yet perfectly normal. 
@emc: Are you witnessing your body's movements 24/7 without break. Have you been sleeping while being aware all these years?
@bewell: My first trick was unplanned. It was when my Kundalini rose abruptly (2005/2006) and I was doing strange things. My parents took me to their Guru (who I trusted as well) and thought she would fix me up. They left me alone with the Guru and she asked me whats going on with me. Then I made some strange movements (the Kundalini pointed my hand to all the chakras, and showed the the path how ida, pingla, shushumna nadis travel through them and how I will be released from the Crown once the work of Kundalini is done.) I came near her and she got scared and looked around in puzzle. I also did some asanas automatically. Then she told my parents to take me to a Physiatrist.
That night I tried to attack her. I was captured, beaten, tied with ropes and dragged away on the ground while still being beaten by her followers, and then hospitalised.
She is still a very very famous Guru in India and very rich.
The second and next few times I swore and attacked at all the saints who my parents brought home. Then I went to a few more Asharams with my brothers and friends and repeated the same thing.
So far I have found only 2 genuine Gurus. One is famous and rich but the other a poor fakir. But they are both empty.
PS: Sometimes I go to the same asharam again. The look at the face of the Guru (and the followers who had beaten me earlier) when they spot me sitting in the crowd is priceless. I smile back at them but they never.
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Chiron
Russia
397 Posts |
Posted - Feb 13 2011 : 03:48:50 AM
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| "If you meet the buddha, kill the buddha" Well done manigma :D |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Feb 13 2011 : 04:08:31 AM
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| Manigma, the answer is no. I wouldn't call awareness during bodily sleep "automatic movement". I'm totally with you on what you are pointing to. I just felt the examples you gave of automatic movements are not sufficient for enlightenment. |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Feb 13 2011 : 05:55:25 AM
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Hi Yaming
quote:
Yaming wrote:
What sounds interesting to me is the statement that nobody on this earth is fully enlightened. What does "fully enlightened" mean? Fully in union with everything?
emc is right, once individual consciousness is transcended and we begin to enter Universal consciousness, the state of one depends on the state of everyone else on the planet. This is why nobody on this Earth is fully enlightened, because we all have a lot of work still to do. And it is, as emc said, why so many are insprired to teach, because we are all waking up to each other, and to every other sentient being in the universe.
That's what enlightenment is.
Christi |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Feb 13 2011 : 06:09:12 AM
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Hi Manigma,
quote:
There is another method which is tried and tested by me on various Gurus.
- While touching their feet, swear at them.
- Try to pounce/attack them.
- Do strange things to surprise them.
I know there is a tradition in India where a disciple tests a spiritual teacher to make sure that they are genuine, but I think you should find a method which is more appropriate. Appart from anything else, what you are doing is illegal. Secondly, it goes against the first teaching of Yoga which is ahimsa, harmlessness. Thirdly, your test is based on your own assumptions of how a teacher should or should not react, which could be very innacurate. And lastly, you could be hurt very badly, if you are not locked up.
Don't forget, even the Gurus of this world are an illusion.
Christi |
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manigma
India
1065 Posts |
Posted - Feb 13 2011 : 06:16:50 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by emc
Manigma, the answer is no. I wouldn't call awareness during bodily sleep "automatic movement". I'm totally with you on what you are pointing to. I just felt the examples you gave of automatic movements are not sufficient for enlightenment.
Yes, they are very simple examples... but yet they are significant.
For an Enlightened one, everything simple becomes the most extraordinary . And yes, everything happens automatically, even sleep.
Its like pressing the 'Hibernation' button on your computer. You tell the body to sleep, the body would lie down and fall asleep automatically. The machine has goes into hibernation, not the user.
The Enlightened One is the master of his body and mind. They are under his command. He is no longer a slave of them like most beings.
He is free from the limitations of the body and mind. The perfect natural state of every Enlightened one.
Being in Heaven and Earth at the same time.
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manigma
India
1065 Posts |
Posted - Feb 13 2011 : 06:22:24 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Chiron
"If you meet the buddha, kill the buddha" Well done manigma :D
Yes, because when you meet a genuine buddha and try to kill him, you will realise he is already dead.
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Feb 13 2011 : 10:28:42 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by manigma
@Etherfish: I repeat. Its impossible to shake/surprise/shock an Enlightened one. They rest beyond mind in consciousness - 24/7. They are so deep to reach and be shaken. Its like being in a state of coma yet perfectly normal.
OK I think i am beginning to understand now. You try to disturb people, and if they don't respond, you get violent with them, and if they still don't respond they are enlightened. Enlightened people are very predictable, and no longer make choices as to how they act in the real world, because they are no longer here. |
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Yaming
Switzerland
112 Posts |
Posted - Feb 13 2011 : 1:24:39 PM
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Hi Manigma,
being hospitalized because you got beaten up and thrown out of the ashram sounds pretty painfull to me. So how come you kept doing it? I wouldn't have tried it again after what happened to you the first time.
Etherfish,
quote:
emc is right, once individual consciousness is transcended and we begin to enter Universal consciousness, the state of one depends on the state of everyone else on the planet. This is why nobody on this Earth is fully enlightened, because we all have a lot of work still to do. And it is, as emc said, why so many are insprired to teach, because we are all waking up to each other, and to every other sentient being in the universe.
yeah but how come that some of them do not return to physical life if there is still more work to do? Doesn't make sense to me. Maybe they have a more efficient way, without being bond to a physical body... |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Feb 13 2011 : 2:25:23 PM
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| Or maybe they still have free choice. . .BTW that quote is not mine. |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Feb 13 2011 : 3:57:56 PM
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quote:
Etherfish,
quote:
emc is right, once individual consciousness is transcended and we begin to enter Universal consciousness, the state of one depends on the state of everyone else on the planet. This is why nobody on this Earth is fully enlightened, because we all have a lot of work still to do. And it is, as emc said, why so many are insprired to teach, because we are all waking up to each other, and to every other sentient being in the universe.
yeah but how come that some of them do not return to physical life if there is still more work to do? Doesn't make sense to me. Maybe they have a more efficient way, without being bond to a physical body...
Hi Yaming,
(The quote was mine)
...and, yes, some teachers deliberately choose to continue working from the astral realms, living in a subtle body made of strands of self-luminous light. They cannot work so intimately with humans on the Earth in this way, but they can also hold a higher vibration because they are not pulled down by the more dense vibrations of the physical plane. I have several teachers who are living in this way and I am very grateful to them for the work they are doing.
Christi |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Feb 13 2011 : 7:53:00 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Yaming
How do we know if someone is enlightened?
Hi Yaming,
Welcome to the AYP Forum.
Discussions about enlightenment can veer away from the simple reality of enlightenment quite easily and quickly. Enlightenment cannot be understood intellectually, because enlightenment is wholeness, and intellect is partial. Pieces can't understand wholeness; attempting to understand enlightenment with mind, or to discuss enlightenment with concepts is essentially attempting to "cut our way to wholeness" .... challenging, at best.
As the old Buddhist saying goes:
"When one sees a finger pointing at the moon, the wise man looks at the moon, and the fool, the finger."
Concepts are like the finger .... concepts can point in the general direction of enlightenment (and/or they can point directly away from enlightenment, and/or waver somewhere in-between; that's the trouble with concepts) ... but concepts are no more enlightenment than the finger pointing at the moon is the moon.
The only enlightenment that really matters is enlightenment in experience. How can we come to enlightenment in experience? Daily AYP practices are one of the best single starting points I can recommend, and this is based on roughly six years of AYP. For a bit about my overall experience, please just do a search on my other posts.
It's also important note that enlightenment is just a word, and that the exact definition of that word varies quite a bit; all definitions are relative, of course. What I call enlightenment is when we become aware of our changeless true nature to the point that our limited sense of self dissolves into our true nature ... the realization of our utter, unbound unassailable perfect wholeness. Others here emphasize that change continues and that there is no end point. At the levels of form, this is quite true; in fact, what I call enlightenment accelerates these changes, because there are no longer the vast amounts of obstructions blocking the flow.
Yogash Chitta Vrtti Nirodhah
Yoga is the cessation of mind disturbances.
~Yoga Sutras of Patanjali 1.2
It's somewhat analogous to digging a well through ice to reach water ... we finally break through to the water, and the water melts the ice without any further effort on our part (i.e. the grace we hear of so often in spiritual and yogic circles; grace is the light of our true nature, shining us awake).
Enlightenment isn't something we "get"; un-enlightenment is something we stop making up.
Enlightenment isn't magical or staggeringly supernatural; enlightenment is real, enlightenment is whole; enlightenment is this that we each and all ever actually are, now. No one has more or less enlightenment that anyone else; there is no non-wholeness in reality. It is simply a matter of whether or not there is familiarity and ongoing experiencing of-as the full range of consciousness; that's it. Prior to enlightenment, we're blind to a the foundation of our being, and we mis-perceive and mis-conceive ourselves as partial and unwhole. Enlightenment is simply knowing ourselves as this wholeness we actually are, now.
And yes, of course, all the things said in this post are just pointers as well; possible points for consideration, is all. And here are a few more sets of pointers that I've found useful; I hope that you, and others reading may find them useful, too.
Video: Adyashanti - What Is Enlightenment?
Video: Jed McKenna - Truth At Any Price
Video: Jed McKenna - Spiritual Enlightenment is the Damnedest Thing
AYP Lesson 413 on Enlightenment
Nisargadatta Maharaj Quotes
Ramana Maharshi Quotes
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
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Edited by - Kirtanman on Feb 13 2011 8:09:49 PM |
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bewell
1275 Posts |
Posted - Feb 13 2011 : 8:53:06 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by manigma
@bewell: My first trick was unplanned. It was when my Kundalini rose abruptly (2005/2006) and I was doing strange things. My parents took me to their Guru (who I trusted as well) and thought she would fix me up. They left me alone with the Guru and she asked me whats going on with me. Then I made some strange movements (the Kundalini pointed my hand to all the chakras, and showed the the path how ida, pingla, shushumna nadis travel through them and how I will be released from the Crown once the work of Kundalini is done.) I came near her and she got scared and looked around in puzzle. I also did some asanas automatically. Then she told my parents to take me to a Physiatrist.
That night I tried to attack her. I was captured, beaten, tied with ropes and dragged away on the ground while still being beaten by her followers, and then hospitalised.
She is still a very very famous Guru in India and very rich.
The second and next few times I swore and attacked at all the saints who my parents brought home. Then I went to a few more Asharams with my brothers and friends and repeated the same thing.
So far I have found only 2 genuine Gurus. One is famous and rich but the other a poor fakir. But they are both empty.
PS: Sometimes I go to the same asharam again. The look at the face of the Guru (and the followers who had beaten me earlier) when they spot me sitting in the crowd is priceless. I smile back at them but they never.
Manigma
Thank your for answering my questions. I shared your story with some friends today. Your story inspires me with compassion for people who "attack" me in various ways, usually less dramatic. I was seemingly "attacked" overtly in '08 while doing a solo yoga retreat in a mostly boarded-up section of downtown Baltimore. It happened on the sidewalk. Some teen-aged boys were asking me for money, and when I offered none, one of them said, "Let's get him," and then all four lunged at me suddenly. I was immediately overwhelmed with a felt sense of ecstatic conductivity, and bliss consciousness, and from the standing posture I was in, my body spontaneously moved toward standing straighter, and my palms opened and turned outward such that the "attackers" could see my open palms -- a posture of defenselessness. The young men flew by me like the wind without touching me physically. I never thought of it before hearing your story, but I wonder whether on some level, intuitively perhaps, they were trying to find "enlightenment" or to test my claim to be walking in the light of yogic wisdom (of course they would not have used that wording to describe whatever it was they were doing). Maybe it helped that in preparing for that retreat, I faced my fear of dying in such an attack, and I consciously made my peace with such a death. I feel love for them now remembering that event in light of your story, and I love you too, dear Manigma. You have given me a wonderful gift!
Be |
Edited by - bewell on Feb 13 2011 9:31:24 PM |
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manigma
India
1065 Posts |
Posted - Feb 14 2011 : 12:22:19 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Christi
..it goes against the first teaching of Yoga which is ahimsa, harmlessness.
Yes, in India we are taught this even when we are in our mother's womb.
I never hurt. I just pretend (or at the most grab them and push them away) while I keep a close watch on their facial and bodily reactions. Rest is upto their followers.
quote:
Don't forget, even the Gurus of this world are an illusion.
Yes, everything becomes illusion if seen through the mind.
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manigma
India
1065 Posts |
Posted - Feb 14 2011 : 12:32:25 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by bewell
Manigma
Thank your for answering my questions. I shared your story with some friends today. Your story inspires me with compassion for people who "attack" me in various ways, usually less dramatic. I was seemingly "attacked" overtly in '08 while doing a solo yoga retreat in a mostly boarded-up section of downtown Baltimore. It happened on the sidewalk. Some teen-aged boys were asking me for money, and when I offered none, one of them said, "Let's get him," and then all four lunged at me suddenly. I was immediately overwhelmed with a felt sense of ecstatic conductivity, and bliss consciousness, and from the standing posture I was in, my body spontaneously moved toward standing straighter, and my palms opened and turned outward such that the "attackers" could see my open palms -- a posture of defenselessness. The young men flew by me like the wind without touching me physically. I never thought of it before hearing your story, but I wonder whether on some level, intuitively perhaps, they were trying to find "enlightenment" or to test my claim to be walking in the light of yogic wisdom (of course they would not have used that wording to describe whatever it was they were doing). Maybe it helped that in preparing for that retreat, I faced my fear of dying in such an attack, and I consciously made my peace with such a death. I feel love for them now remembering that event in light of your story, and I love you too, dear Manigma. You have given me a wonderful gift!
Be
Beautiful!
quote:
Originally posted by Yaming
Hi Manigma,
being hospitalized because you got beaten up and thrown out of the ashram sounds pretty painfull to me. So how come you kept doing it? I wouldn't have tried it again after what happened to you the first time.
@Yaming: Something similar like Bewell above happened with me as well that time. I was being beaten and hurt but I felt more energetic and light. I was also bitten by their big dogs on my arms.
The cause of these beatings must be related to Karma I guess.
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Yaming
Switzerland
112 Posts |
Posted - Feb 14 2011 : 01:07:14 AM
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Hi Kirtanman,
thanks for the welcome ^^
basically you are saying one can't talk about enlightement. Once you talk about it you lose the essence of it. So who are the fools who are trying to put out a definition of it? I agree with it though. In order to really understand it I have to experience it.
I learned that lesson before. An intelectual knowledge is not bad but it's nothing compared to actually experience. It's just a total different level of understanding.
Etherfish sorry for mixing up that the quote was from christi.
Christi, how come you've teachers in those planes? I thought the principle here is that the Guru is in you.
Yaming
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Feb 14 2011 : 07:12:03 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Yaming
Hi Kirtanman,
thanks for the welcome ^^
basically you are saying one can't talk about enlightenment. Once you talk about it you lose the essence of it.
Hi Yaming,
Kinda-sorta .... but that's probably adding a few orders of magnitude to my intended level of emphasis.
(Understandable you read it that way ... I can write like that {"way emphatic sounding"} at times.)
If you search on my username and the keyword "enlightenment" you'll find that I'm no stranger at all to discussions about enlightenment .... including the enlightenment, lack thereof, and/or possibility thereof ... of quite a few different people, in the opinions of various people at this forum.
Which is likely why I wrote what I wrote ... while I personally have fun with such discussions (and everything else, pretty much ) ... they ultimately don't matter too much, for most of us, it seems.
Plus, they can reinforce the seeming importance of mind-forms, (thoughts, feelings, etc.) as understood with mind-forms (limited sense of self) ... when the true "direction" of enlightenment is opening past all that.
And so, by all means, use inclinations authentically ... what I meant to say was just that focusing heavily on who's enlightened and who's not, along with related discussions, where there are usually as many views as people participating .. is just helpful to keep in perspective, is all.
Daily practices help to clarify the nature of enlightenment in both self and others infinitely more than discussion can. This is because practices open us in the direction of enlightenment. Discussions may or may not do so, and they have at least a fifty-fifty chance of doing the opposite (keeping us stuck in the dream based on ideas).
quote:
So who are the fools who are trying to put out a definition of it?
Ummmm ... Us?
quote:
I agree with it though. In order to really understand it I have to experience it.
You win!!!
WHAT do you win?
If you truly move in the direction of enlightenment in experience ... only everything.
quote:
I learned that lesson before. An intelectual knowledge is not bad but it's nothing compared to actually experience. It's just a total different level of understanding.
That's it, exactly.
Even a few minutes swimming teaches you more than a Doctorate degree in swimming for someone who has never been in a swimming pool.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Feb 14 2011 : 08:09:03 AM
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Yes an intellectual understanding of something has value when it is made of building blocks we have already experienced.
But an intellectual understanding of something we have not experienced is worthless. A blind man can organize a list of hundreds of colors, but it only means something if he could once see.
Words really have no meaning; they only point at something that does. and if we don't truly understand what they are pointing at . . . they only lead to more words.
If you can understand this concept, it is closely related to enlightenment. The logical part of our mind believes that it can reduce reality to words and images, and that manipulating words and images is the same as manipulating reality. So it spends a lot of time with an internal dialog playing with what it believes to be real. |
Edited by - Etherfish on Feb 14 2011 08:13:21 AM |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Feb 14 2011 : 10:35:44 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
Yes an intellectual understanding of something has value when it is made of building blocks we have already experienced.
But an intellectual understanding of something we have not experienced is worthless. A blind man can organize a list of hundreds of colors, but it only means something if he could once see.
Words really have no meaning; they only point at something that does. and if we don't truly understand what they are pointing at . . . they only lead to more words.
If you can understand this concept, it is closely related to enlightenment. The logical part of our mind believes that it can reduce reality to words and images, and that manipulating words and images is the same as manipulating reality. So it spends a lot of time with an internal dialog playing with what it believes to be real.
Awesome, Ether - thanks for this; "I concur".
The confusing of words, and our specific interpretation of words, with reality, is essentially the "source code" of Maya.
Ego feels it is an effect of language, at the "mercy of" thoughts, feelings, fears, regrets, memories, imagination, etc. -- a dream-creature knocked around by dream-stuff (words, language, evaluation).
In reality, language is a creative tool-set that we, as our true nature, can utilize, consciously.
Realizing our true nature, the character in the story realizes he has always been the author; the figure in the painting realizes she has always been the painter.
Thanks very much for this!
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Feb 14 2011 : 11:19:34 AM
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Hi Yaming,
quote:
Christi, how come you've teachers in those planes? I thought the principle here is that the Guru is in you.
The kingdom of heaven is within you.
(Luke 17:21)
As are the teachers within the kingdom of heaven.
As is everything else.
quote:
basically you are saying one can't talk about enlightement. Once you talk about it you lose the essence of it.
That's right. Much better to practice Yoga, and let everything (including enlightenment) unfold naturally.
Christi |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Feb 14 2011 : 7:03:54 PM
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| Talking about it doesn't destroy the essence forever - you can always stop talking! But talking about it is addictive. And yes, as Christi says, the guru within you is not exclusively yours. It is a connection within you to all the answers that are everywhere else. |
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wakeupneo
USA
171 Posts |
Posted - Feb 14 2011 : 11:01:10 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by manigma
quote:
Originally posted by Yaming
So there is no clear sign. You will feel it. Do I understand that correct?
There is another method which is tried and tested by me on various Gurus.
- While touching their feet, swear at them.
- Try to pounce/attack them.
- Do strange things to surprise them.
Don't do this when the Guru is delivering sermon to mass public. But only when he is meeting few people (guests etc) in idle time and replying to their questions.
I have been beaten and thrown out of ashrams several times for doing such things.
The fakers always get confused and want me away as early as possible. They would show some pity for me and declare me sick/mad.
You have to watch the reaction and behaviour of the Guru very carefully. The Enlightened ones show no sweat, no surprised reaction... even if they react its so cool and effortless. Once a Guru blocked my attack so effortlessly with a smile and then told me to go back and sit. He didn't even look at me.
The real ones are so calm yet so agile... unbelievably conscious.
Manigma....
this is classic. keep up the good work my friend.
mind telling us what gurus passed your "test"?
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Edited by - wakeupneo on Feb 14 2011 11:04:43 PM |
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manigma
India
1065 Posts |
Posted - Feb 15 2011 : 04:58:20 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by wakeupneo
mind telling us what gurus passed your "test"?
Well even if I tell that won't make any difference. They passed my devised test, not yours.
First is Osho Shailendra, he is brother of Osho. He works with an organisation called Oshodhara. I was initiated by the senior Master Osho Siddharth last year.
http://www.balbro.com/maniksha.jpg
Osho Shailendra is the most serious yet most funniest guru I have ever met. He is strict yet soft. He remains silent most of the time but when he speaks... he does not take a pause.
In a recent satsang one guy was pesking him on the meaning of Amrita. Shaielndra ji explained in the best way possible but the guy insisted to experience the taste of Amrita. Then Shailendra ji said:
My friend, Amrita is not like Coca-Cola that I can bring it and ask you to take a sip of it. That was so funny. He is a combination of intense wisdom and very good sense of humour.
Many people say he is cheap Osho and uses Osho's name and knowledge to make money (I used to say that too). But its not like that. I have learnt a lot of things by just being closer to him. I get answers to my questions (without asking) in the most strangest ways when I am in their asharam or around them.
The other One lives near my home. He is a poor old fakir living under a Banyan tree in a small hut. He is very old now and speaks little. He belongs to Nath Samprada (like Nisargadatta).
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Feb 15 2011 : 08:19:13 AM
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| I have a friend who is a professional hip hop dancer. Really nice guy although not trustworthy or law abiding. If you attack him he is never surprised and just laughs. He must be enlightened. |
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How do you know that the person is enlightened?
