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Yaming
Switzerland
112 Posts |
 Posted - Feb 11 2011 : 12:31:14 AM
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Hi everyone,
I was asking myself this question for a while now. There are many people out there who are claiming that they are enlightened. So how do I know that they actually are enlightened or if they are just pretending it? One of my first meditation instructors told me that, a person will have telepathy once he/she has opened the 3rd eye. He had an unexpected encounter with a monk who was reading his mind (he knew the whole family issues, what his plans are for the future etc). As I read here, and which seems logic, every spiritual path is different, which means that not everyone who is enlightened has the gift of reading other peoples mind. What do you think about it? How do we know if someone is enlightened?
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manigma
India
1065 Posts |
Posted - Feb 11 2011 : 04:10:10 AM
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Reading others mind or controlling them is a siddhi which can be attained. It also comes as a natural gift in some. Third Eye is the key.
An Enlightened One would never be interested to read or control others minds.
quote:
Originally posted by Yaming
How do we know if someone is enlightened?
I made a post about Magga Baba few months ago.
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....OPIC_ID=7390
But whatever the style/appearance... the Enlightened One's remain damn cool in every situation. Always conscious, even when deep asleep.
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maheswari
Lebanon
2520 Posts |
Posted - Feb 11 2011 : 05:48:53 AM
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as manigma said siddhis are NOT a sure sign that a person is enlightened.....using and showing siddhis shows that the person has still an ego...so no way he is enlightened
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as for the true signs of an enlightened...Swami Chidananda explains them as follows:
"If you are sitting beside a very calm, serene, collected person, a centre of serenity and calm (no matter what is happening), the vibrations radiating from that person, the aura emanating from that person, puts your mind also into a state of relative, comparative calmness. Even if you are by nature prone to be very agitated and restless, nevertheless, for the time being, to an appreciable extent, the calm goes into your mind...."
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bewell
1275 Posts |
Posted - Feb 11 2011 : 10:45:54 AM
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Yaming
To the extent that a person, you for example, are walking "in the light" of yogic wisdom, you are enlightened. That does not mean you are perfect.
Yogani writes:
"In the AYP lessons... much emphasis is placed on the inner guru and developing self-sufficiency in practices. With that, we are constantly reducing the influence of illusion in our lives, including the illusion of a guru's perfection."
http://www.aypsite.org/260.html
"The guru is in you" |
Edited by - bewell on Feb 11 2011 10:48:40 AM |
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Ananda
3115 Posts |
Posted - Feb 11 2011 : 11:14:26 AM
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Thank you all and a special thanks to Bewell for the great reminder
Just in time |
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Yaming
Switzerland
112 Posts |
Posted - Feb 11 2011 : 2:36:59 PM
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quote:
To the extent that a person, you for example, are walking "in the light" of yogic wisdom, you are enlightened. That does not mean you are perfect.
Hm but then the word enlightened doesn't has much meaning. It just says that someone is practicing yoga. That is in my opinion way too general.
quote:
"If you are sitting beside a very calm, serene, collected person, a centre of serenity and calm (no matter what is happening), the vibrations radiating from that person, the aura emanating from that person, puts your mind also into a state of relative, comparative calmness. Even if you are by nature prone to be very agitated and restless, nevertheless, for the time being, to an appreciable extent, the calm goes into your mind...."
So there is no clear sign. You will feel it. Do I understand that correct? So how would I distinguish between someone who is enlightened and my own wish that someone is enlightened? Many people get into sects where the leader is "enlightened". In fact he is only taking advantage of them, which implicates that he is not enlightened because he has an ego (taking advantage of someone to his own benefit).
In lecture 35 (beginning):
"The ultimate destination is enlightenment. What is enlightenment? A state of balanced union between our two natures: pure bliss consciousness, and our sensory involvement on this physical earth. That is the definition of yoga, and the destination of all religion."
The first stage is the raise of inner silence which will radiate from the practitioner. That's probably the sign that was mentioned before (feel of inner calmness due to the presence of the enlightened one). But I still don't get how I can figure out if someone is enlightened or not. lol
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Edited by - Yaming on Feb 11 2011 2:54:19 PM |
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riptiz
United Kingdom
741 Posts |
Posted - Feb 11 2011 : 4:21:13 PM
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Hi Yaming,
I'm not sure that there is any specific common demoninator for knowing if one is enlightened.If you feel comfortable in anothers presence, they are making a difference to your progress in some way and not taking advantage of you, then I would say thats enough.
L&L
Dave |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Feb 11 2011 : 5:27:48 PM
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Hi Yaming,
Enlightenment isn't an all-or-nothing affair, it is a gradual process of evolution. So it doesn't mean much to say that so-and-so is enlightened, or is not enlightened. There are many aspects to the process which unfold over a very long period of time. Nobody on this Earth is fully enlightened, so we are all evolving together.
But the word means more than just saying that someone is practicing yoga, or has some form of spiritual practice. Some of the key early milestones are discussed in this main lesson:
http://www.aypsite.org/35.html
So living in ecstatic bliss is an early sign of enlightenment as is Self-realization. The next stage is the overflowing of the heart in Divine love. This is the only real test of the level of someone's enlightenment: are their actions inspired by love or not?
Christi |
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cosmic
USA
821 Posts |
Posted - Feb 11 2011 : 7:04:51 PM
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Hello Yaming
I don't think we can truly know for sure if someone else is enlightened. Just like we can't truly know how another person feels, or what it's like to be them.
If you knew a person was enlightened, what would you do with that knowledge? What would it mean to you?
Personally, if I were interested in measuring another's enlightenment, I would use love, wisdom, and kindness as the measure rather than power and charisma. I've met magnetic, seemingly powerful people that did not have good intentions.
Love
cosmic |
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Yaming
Switzerland
112 Posts |
Posted - Feb 11 2011 : 10:34:23 PM
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Thanks for all your replies.
quote:
Enlightenment isn't an all-or-nothing affair, it is a gradual process of evolution. So it doesn't mean much to say that so-and-so is enlightened, or is not enlightened. There are many aspects to the process which unfold over a very long period of time. Nobody on this Earth is fully enlightened, so we are all evolving together.
I know that it is a graudal process of evolution. But according to Yoganis defintion we can say that someone is enlightened or not. If I don't have the inner silence present 24/7, I didn't pass the first stage yet. I might be on my way but I didn't reach it yet. And so it goes on with the other stages. Most likely the person doesn't even really realizes it that he/she has past the first stage because it is just natural to be in this state all the time.
What sounds interesting to me is the statement that nobody on this earth is fully enlightened. What does "fully enlightened" mean? Fully in union with everything?
cosmic: I agree that we can't really know it. In the end it doesn't matter if a person is enlightened or not. I'm just curious about it, since there are some people out there claiming that they are enlightened. Besides that it brings me a clearer (intelectual) understanding of the topic. I don't think anyone here will be like: yeah I've past the first stage! lets go for the next one... it is a process that goes on, and one just keeps working on it and takes whatever comes. Well that's my understanding of it so far.
Can someone still have an ego if he has inner silence?
On a nother note: I'm really glad that I've found this forum! It's truly awesome. People here are really trying to help others and there seems to be a very good atmosphere. I guess you all know what other stuff is on the net...
btw from where does the sign of this site come?
Yaming
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manigma
India
1065 Posts |
Posted - Feb 12 2011 : 12:10:50 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Yaming
So there is no clear sign. You will feel it. Do I understand that correct?
There is another method which is tried and tested by me on various Gurus.
- While touching their feet, swear at them.
- Try to pounce/attack them.
- Do strange things to surprise them.
Don't do this when the Guru is delivering sermon to mass public. But only when he is meeting few people (guests etc) in idle time and replying to their questions.
I have been beaten and thrown out of ashrams several times for doing such things.
The fakers always get confused and want me away as early as possible. They would show some pity for me and declare me sick/mad.
You have to watch the reaction and behaviour of the Guru very carefully. The Enlightened ones show no sweat, no surprised reaction... even if they react its so cool and effortless. Once a Guru blocked my attack so effortlessly with a smile and then told me to go back and sit. He didn't even look at me.
The real ones are so calm yet so agile... unbelievably conscious.
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Feb 12 2011 : 12:22:07 AM
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| You are asking the wrong question. Enlightenment is not something you can get from someone else who has it. It is not something that rubs off from hanging around the right people. It comes from within. Meditate. Lessons can be learned from the most unenlightened people. |
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Yaming
Switzerland
112 Posts |
Posted - Feb 12 2011 : 12:39:20 AM
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quote:
You are asking the wrong question. Enlightenment is not something you can get from someone else who has it. It is not something that rubs off from hanging around the right people. It comes from within. Meditate. Lessons can be learned from the most unenlightened people.
Am I asking the question because I want to search for a Guru and get enlightement from him/her? No. Is the question wrong to get a differnet view point to the topic? I don't think so. As stated before I'm asking the question to get a better intellectual understanding of the topic.
That one can learn from anyone is pretty obvious and just depends on the openess of the person that wants to learn.
manigma: LOL you really tried to attack the Gurus? That's funny. |
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manigma
India
1065 Posts |
Posted - Feb 12 2011 : 02:58:13 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Yaming
manigma: LOL you really tried to attack the Gurus? That's funny.
Yes, its fun. India is full of them.
The fakers always get puzzled. The expression on their faces while trying to swallow the insult/embarrassment is priceless. Very minute reactions but enough for you to know they are fake.
Its impossible to make an Enlightened one angry. They are unshakable.
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Feb 12 2011 : 03:31:39 AM
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quote:
What sounds interesting to me is the statement that nobody on this earth is fully enlightened. What does "fully enlightened" mean? Fully in union with everything?
One way of seeing that, is that we are all actually One. It's only One consciousness, the authentic I, which IS the one and only I all seemingly separate individuals are referring to (mistakingly believing they are only pointing to a very special and personal self separate from others.) (My God, that is actually so cute!)
So the One consciousness individualized itself into many in existence - some of which are living in oblivion, some are waking up and some are self-realized/enlightened. Not until all individuals are enlightened and have realized Truth/Oneness, the One is fully enlightened.
I believe that's why many gurus/teachers are so DEVOTED to spread the word! They know EVERYBODY has to wake up, and that Consciousness itself is in the direction of finally going Home as well.
@manigma: Haha! You crazy guy! No wonder you were thrown out of the ashrams! LOL!
But I do agree - the truly enlightened master would see your intentions (at least if he had the siddhi to read your codes like in Matrix ); he would immediately know that you were "testing" and why and love you for expressing such behaviour.
I don't think a master would show off with his/her siddhis, but definitely use them when necessary, towards every individual, and only they would know - nobody else has to know! |
Edited by - emc on Feb 12 2011 04:19:04 AM |
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manigma
India
1065 Posts |
Posted - Feb 12 2011 : 06:20:10 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by emc
@manigma: Haha! You crazy guy! No wonder you were thrown out of the ashrams! LOL!
But I do agree - the truly enlightened master would see your intentions (at least if he had the siddhi to read your codes like in Matrix ); he would immediately know that you were "testing" and why and love you for expressing such behaviour.
I don't think a master would show off with his/her siddhis, but definitely use them when necessary, towards every individual, and only they would know - nobody else has to know!
What I actually mean is an Enlightened One does not need to read anybody's mind.
Neo: What are you trying to tell me? That I can dodge bullets?
Morpheus: No, Neo. I'm trying to tell you that when you're ready, you won't have to.
This is so.
An Enlightened One has all the Siddhis at his disposal. And they are used if required, not by him, automatically.
For example:
- I am running and there is a narrow path ahead. The body would bend/turn itself just at the right time when I enter the path... automatically!
- There is a glass of water. I am thirsty. The hand will move, grab the glass, bring it close to my lips and I will drink the water... automatically.
- I feel tired. I tell the body to take rest, it will lie down and fall asleep while I remain aware all the time.
- And... someone attacks me, but all the blows are blocked automatically by my arms/legs. (Just like Neo does in the Matrix). 
This actually happens!!!
The way an Enlightened moves, eats, sleeps, works, speaks... all happens so effortlessly and naturally while he remains fully aware 24/7.
Then the Mind, the Body, the Soul... everything works in a perfect natural harmony!
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Yaming
Switzerland
112 Posts |
Posted - Feb 12 2011 : 11:20:51 AM
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Interesting. In the martial arts world some masters were called sleeping crane (or whatever style was practiced) because it seemed that they were fighting half asleep. Everything was automatic they didn't even had to pay attention to it. Maybe those have reached enlightement.
Anyways, thanks for your comment. I'm still trying to imagine how you're sneaking up behind a Guru to surprise him to see if he is enlightened or not.
quote:
I believe that's why many gurus/teachers are so DEVOTED to spread the word! They know EVERYBODY has to wake up, and that Consciousness itself is in the direction of finally going Home as well.
I see what you mean. Do you think then that those who have reached enlightement will still be reincarnated? One of the statements that is often made in daoist or buddhist circles, says that one escapes from reincarnation. |
Edited by - Yaming on Feb 12 2011 12:02:06 PM |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Feb 12 2011 : 12:29:49 PM
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| Yes I think that is pretty much accepted; that reincarnation is not necessary when you have reached a certain degree of enlightenment. But also I agree that there is no end degree, and it is a continuous process. And some people choose to come back even though they don't have to. |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Feb 12 2011 : 12:37:51 PM
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I think it is impossible to judge if someone else is enlightened or not. Let's say they fail your test because they were shaken by your intrusive behavior. How do you know they aren't fully awakened, and chose to be shaken to purposely fail your test?
And how do you know that an enlightened person isn't reacting a specific way because he knows that is what you need to see at that moment? Maybe you need to see a fake guru so you will go away and meditate.
Any test you can conceive of is made up by a logical mind, which is going to be minimized upon enlightenment, and that mind is not fond of that concept. Therefore, the logical mind cannot be trusted in matters of spirituality. It's frustrating. |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Feb 12 2011 : 1:59:51 PM
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Nice thought, Ether!
And to make it further complicated - automatic movements is not necessarily a sign of enlightenment. I'm a living proof of that, having had such automatic movements for years now of the type mentioned above! |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Feb 12 2011 : 2:08:55 PM
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Maybe you're enlightened and your logical mind won't allow you to know it!
But at least I think we can take the movements to mean we are on the right path - the path of enlightenment. It's all good. |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Feb 12 2011 : 4:16:48 PM
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| LOL! |
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bewell
1275 Posts |
Posted - Feb 12 2011 : 4:57:27 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by manigma
There is another method which is tried and tested by me on various Gurus.
- While touching their feet, swear at them.
- Try to pounce/attack them.
- Do strange things to surprise them.
Don't do this when the Guru is delivering sermon to mass public. But only when he is meeting few people (guests etc) in idle time and replying to their questions.
I have been beaten and thrown out of ashrams several times for doing such things.
The fakers always get confused and want me away as early as possible. They would show some pity for me and declare me sick/mad.
You have to watch the reaction and behaviour of the Guru very carefully. The Enlightened ones show no sweat, no surprised reaction... even if they react its so cool and effortless. Once a Guru blocked my attack so effortlessly with a smile and then told me to go back and sit. He didn't even look at me.
The real ones are so calm yet so agile... unbelievably conscious.
Manigma
Such temerity! I have never heard of anyone doing such a thing with that purpose. I have many questions.
How did you get started doing that sort of thing? Are there others you know of who do it too? How often have you done it? When was the first and the last time? How old were you at the time? What was it like getting beaten and thrown out of Ashrams? What was it like being called crazy/mad? Memorable details, and instructive specifics welcome.
Bewell |
Edited by - bewell on Feb 12 2011 5:06:30 PM |
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Yaming
Switzerland
112 Posts |
Posted - Feb 12 2011 : 6:35:41 PM
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Hi Etherfish,
quote:
Any test you can conceive of is made up by a logical mind, which is going to be minimized upon enlightenment, and that mind is not fond of that concept. Therefore, the logical mind cannot be trusted in matters of spirituality. It's frustrating.
The logical mind is limited, so is our perception of the world, but we still manage to come to statements which seem to be correct under those conditions. As our perception expands we see that the statemnet was not correct but we were still able to work with it and come to the expected results. Why shouldn't it be possible with logic and spirituality?
I'm going to a soccer game, most likely the big mass is not enlightened. However, there is one person that is enlightened. As the enlightened one has the natural state of inner silence inherited and is full of ecstacy I can't imagine that he would appear like all the other people there.
It's like going to a concert and hearing an artist who is playing with such a deep feeling, IMO you will not miss that he is expressing so much more than all the others. Hm so the enlightened one would be still recognized by feeling and not by a test.
Maybe some enlightened one here knows how someone else can figure out that he/she is enlightened
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Feb 12 2011 : 7:26:53 PM
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"Why shouldn't it be possible with logic and spirituality?"
Because spirituality is outside the world of logic. It belongs to another world where logic doesn't apply. |
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chas
USA
209 Posts |
Posted - Feb 12 2011 : 9:52:52 PM
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I agree with all of you. Also, something to consider is:
It is impossible to relate absolute truth in words. One can experience truth, but only relate it in effectiveness to a matter of degree. We humans are generally always on the lookout for truth and untruth as we analyze the actions and words of others. It can be hard to tell what is relatively true versus less true when one is not sure what they are looking for. As Jesus said, "you will know them by their fruits". If the fruits include love, joy, peace, wisdom, compassion, unity, kindness, you can better find what you are looking for. We have been told this by nearly every path. We have been told this in our experiences, right? So, if you are looking for "enlightened ones" those are some qualities to look for. Also- consistency. Reality is consistent. If what a person is saying or doing is consistent with other truths that you hold, that is usually a good sign. |
Edited by - chas on Feb 12 2011 9:57:58 PM |
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How do you know that the person is enlightened?
