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satchitanand
India
57 Posts |
 Posted - Jan 26 2011 : 10:24:20 AM
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Hi !
I joined this forum few days before. I follow Bhakti Yoga but I am a very important question for Tantra as I am slightly inclined to it. Let me introduce myself. I am an Indian of aged 31 and unmarried male.
I have read few articles of great spiritual personalities and present and ancient Yogis of India, as I am myself an Indian.
I have always felt that westerners are mostly interested in Hatha Yoga (for physical balance), Meditation, Pranayama, Kundalini Yoga and definitely Tantric Sex. BUT…they rarely talk about “Bhakti Yoga” as there is no room for sensual pleasure. But if you see the greatest Bhakti Yogis of India, they were very clear that all these yogas are after Bhakti Yoga. (Even lord Krishna sang that "Bhakti Yoga" is foremost of all Yoga, where there is a complete surrender to god without any desire of money, name, fame, sex and possession)
Even in India, people are lured by Tantra (Please understand that I am NOT condemning Tantra, but what I am saying is that if one wants spiritual bliss, then from Tantra, it may be short lived according to me. One can attain unlimited organism without ejaculation and giving happiness to his consort and may feel highest bliss but he may or may NOT be able to develop kindness, honesty. He may not be able to conquer lust, anger, greed, hatred, jealously, passion, attachment to worldly pleasures and we may see that all these impurities are still there in a Tantric Yogi. But this possibility is very very less in a True Bhakti Yogi.
I don’t know if westerners they have read something about the spiritual souls of India or not. But please do not take it otherwise. Please see these few comments of these great spiritual souls of India.
(1) Swami Vivekananda observed absolute celibacy for his whole life.
He says “Young men, keep away from lust and sexual fantasies. Store your divine energy and use it only for procreation after marriage”.
Also see this link:
http://gopal4mission.wordpress.com/...arya-quotes/
(2) Swami Sivananda also advocated to preserve semen. (According to him…more organsm…less life span)
http://www.dlshq.org/download/brahma_nopic.htm
http://www.dlshq.org/teachings/brahmacharya.htm
(3) Chaitanya Mahaparbhu (devotee of Hindu deity lord Krishna) said “aitanya Mahaprabhu said this sex is the more dangerous than drinking poison for person who are going to advance in spiritual understanding”.
http://www.exoticindia.fr/book/details/IDG881/
(4) A Abhay Charanaravinda Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada (who is a great and well known Bhakti Yogi) also claims Bhakti Yoga as the easiest and best path for spiritual development. (He recommends sex only for the sake of progeny)
http://www.stephen-knapp.com/a_c_bh...abhupada.htm
And many more of the spiritual souls recommend not indulging in sex for pleasure and taking it as a medium of progeny and serve the life for the divine purpose. According to Bhakti Yoga, Husband and wife should abstain from sex after having progeny and lead a pure spiritual life.
Infact in “Shiv Samhita” (Shiva, who is prayed as the god of yoga in Hinduism who introduced yoga) also, it is written that one should verily verily preserve this semen. The loss of semen is death and saving of semen is life.
Then, why most of the people seek spiritual bliss through Tantric Sex. It seems to me that they want a path that fulfills their needs for sensual enjoyments and that can be considered spiritual too.
According to me, if someone wants to seek spiritual bliss, then it is the best to surrender oneself to god and chant his names and glories, always remembering him in devotional works, serving humanity, being humble, kind, live on the bare minimum and being content in what is given and seeking pleasure in his service.
And lastly, I honestly see Tantra as a practice to develop a good sexual relation with one’s life partner and a medium path for spiritual development.
Please again, do not mind my saying. But I wrote what I always feel. My knowledge in Tantra is limited but what I said is from my knowledge of what I read about from various books on different yoga.
Seeking for your priceless comments…
Regards,
Satchitanand
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AYPforum
351 Posts |
Posted - Jan 26 2011 : 10:39:59 AM
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Jan 26 2011 : 12:07:53 PM
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Hi Satchitanand
Thanks much for your indebt sharing.
I think you are right about the western draw towards Tantra often happening for the "wrong" reason (seeking pleasure instead of waking up to the truth). The western culture is much more self-centered than the Indian culture to begin with.
Karma Yoga...Bhakti Yoga....Jnana Yoga.....ultimately they all are buried within each other, no?
I think it is Mother Meera who says:
"The more you love, the more you know. The more you know the more you love"
And that love and knowledge leads to harmonious action.
So the path of devotion (bhakti) may look very different than the path of wisdom (jnana) - but they end up in the same divine outpouring.....one can go back and forth between paths too.
As far as I know (and I am not a Yoga scholar) - tantra is a whole system of Yoga. It includes much more than just practices related to the sexual arena. But you are right - the commercial emphasize is on the sexual sphere - and people buy it. However - like you emphasize....if you engage in tantra with your wife....then chances are you will wake up! So that is good use of Tantra 
It is great that there are many approaches - since one approach will never work for all.
And if we see to it that the cultivation of inner silence (through meditation or other practices) is consistently taken care of....then the inner wisdom resulting from that will guide one in the right direction - be it tantra or other ways.
As for Bhakti.....it is the driving force behind all spiritual practices. Without bhakti....nothing will happen. Luckily - bhakti is not limited to systems of Bhakti Yoga. It includes all that we do with the intention of surrendering to Life.
It is the love of life.....and eventually we all surrender to it. And the surrender is the realization.
When the realization is total....then the devotion is total too.
Not devotion towards anything in particular.
Just the simple ongoing living fact of devotion.
I can't tell you how grateful I am for all the wisdom that has come from your culture satchitanand....it has sustained bhakti here through many many years now, and it still gives great joy when I encounter it.
I wish you Peace and a prosperity of Heart
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cosmic
USA
821 Posts |
Posted - Jan 26 2011 : 5:01:31 PM
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Hello Satchitanand 
Like Katrine, I am also not a Yoga scholar. But my understanding is that Tantra includes everything - Bhakti, Jnana, Karma Yoga, etc. In the AYP approach to Tantra, meditation and pranayama are still the core practices. They lead to everything else. All of them lead to Love.
In my practice of AYP, I feel that I am practicing all of these beautiful forms of Yoga. There is devotion and surrender to God, selfless action and service, natural self-inquiry, all of these happening naturally because of daily AYP practice. God is not divided or limited, so there are infinite ways we can express our devotion. It's only us humans that divide Yoga into so many parts.
The Divine is within everyone, including in your lover. To worship the Divine through another human being is so beautiful. It is such an honor and a blessing. If you can see your lover as a small piece of God, then loving her is a form of Bhakti Yoga. And the sexual aspect of Tantra is nothing compared to the unconditional Love and total acceptance that you share with your partner.
This is just my experience, so please take it with a grain of salt. I know very little about all the different schools of Yoga. Hope you are able to find the answers you seek. My Love to you
Love [img]icon_heart.gif[/img]
cosmic |
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mimirom
Czech Republic
368 Posts |
Posted - Jan 26 2011 : 5:22:21 PM
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Hi satchitanand,
just a technical comment: As I understand it, in the practice of tantric sexual yoga, we (men) are always trying to preserve semen. Ejaculations are not involved. |
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satchitanand
India
57 Posts |
Posted - Jan 27 2011 : 06:22:52 AM
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Thanks for your valuable comment. Well...my post was on the basis of what I had read from the books on spiritual philosophy of prominent divine beings of Bhakti Yoga from ancient India (one of such example is "Chaitanaya Mahaprabhu", who is considered as an incarnation of lord Krishna).
@Katrine
I agree your sayings:
"It is great that there are many approaches - since one approach will never work for all."
"Not devotion towards anything in particular. Just the simple ongoing living fact of devotion."
@cosmic
I agree your saying:
"There is devotion and surrender to God, selfless action and service, natural self-inquiry, all of these happening naturally because of daily AYP practice."
I wish your future success in your spiritual life. I am new to AYP but I am also willing to do AYP practice for the spiritual development.
@mimrom
Yes...I do understand that in tantric sexual yoga, we try to preserve semen. And this yoga is best suitable for householders who are involved in occasional sexual activities.
Why I posted this article is because I always sensed that not knowing Tantra from the deep, people are always attracted to it because it involves and permits sex and enlightenment through sex.
I feel that very few westerners read the “Bhakti Yoga” literatures of Indian ancient sages and the reason behind it for them is that those literatures are based on Hindu religion. To some extend, I do agree with them.
But, honestly speaking, if they will read about “Bhagvad Gita” with a broad mind then they will really feel that it is the spiritual knowledge in true sense and has nothing to do with Hinduism or any religion. (Here I want to clarify that this holy philosophy sang by lord Krishna is really not known to many people, even the traditional Indians and Hindus (who are religious but not spiritual) don’t read it with spiritual sense and can NOT get good benefits of it.
Bhagvad Gita talks about Karma Yoga (Yoga of Action), Gyan Yoga (Yoga of Knowledge of Self, Individual Soul and Supreme Soul), Bhakti Yoga (Yoga of faith, devotion and complete surrender to god without any desire, even NO desire of salvation or eternal bliss, just serving to god of any form or formless what ever is the belief, here Krishna puts this form of “Bhakti Yoga” as the foremost of all Yoga).
Please understand that I am NOT here to advertise or advocate firmly “Bhagvad Gita” or “Krishna”, but what I am telling is what is accepted and sensed by ancient yogis. Krishna is considered as the “Param Yogi” (The supreme yogi) and yogis always seek his lotus feet for development in spiritual progress through yoga.
Well…I again thank all of you for being part of the discussion and always read to welcome your valuable replies. |
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Buffle37
Switzerland
79 Posts |
Posted - Jan 28 2011 : 1:32:44 PM
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Hi Satchitanand,
I read with lots of interest your post and would like just to add a few points:
In the western world we have known bakti yoga for more than two thousand years: its name: Christianity. For centuries and centuries monks and nuns have been seeking God in their monasteries.
We have also our great ones, for instance:
Saint Francis of Assisi
Saint John of the Cross
Saint Teresa of Avila
And many others…
In modern days we have in France Curé of Ars (St. Jean-Baptiste-Marie Vianney)
for whom the souls were open books or in Italy Padre Pio known to have the siddi of bilocation.
All this great ones emphasized that total chastity was necessary to find God.
You can also read Tantra lessonT22 (Kundalini and sexual attraction for guru and God). Yogani wrote about the”ecstatic bliss flowing profusely in the cloistered convents of medieval Europe…”
Now in the West we have just discovered Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism, for only a few decades and we are so excited and enthusiastic to learn all this extraordinary teachings which are so new for us. We are hungry and thirsty to ride through all these new roads to go to the Unknown what name It can be. And yes, Tantra attracts us. After so many centuries when we were told that sex is bad it is such a relief to discover that on the contrary it is beauty and a path to heaven.
This few comments, only to contribute to a better understanding between East and West…
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satchitanand
India
57 Posts |
Posted - Jan 29 2011 : 01:29:59 AM
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Hi Buffle37 !
Thanks for your interest in this discussion. I have read not much but good enough about Saint Terasa and Saint Peter. I am very inspired from the spiritual philosophy and way of living of those saints and nuns of western.
I am also inspired from the spirituality of Sri Aurobindo and Mira Alfassa. These two personalities were from east(India) and west (France).See the link if you want to know more about them
:
http://www.mirapuri-enterprises.com.../index.shtml
You see...here is the point. As you told that:
"And yes, Tantra attracts us. After so many centuries when we were told that sex is bad it is such a relief to discover that on the contrary it is beauty and a path to heaven."
You also told that Hinduism, Buddhism and Taoism are new for westerners. I agree that. So, please do not mind but I want to give light on this point. You see, the spirituality is beyond all these religions i.e. Christianity, Hinduism, Muslims etc. And yes, most people (both Indians and westerners) consider that the Hinduism was the ancient religion of India. But it is not so. There is a Dharma (and Dharma is not religion in its real sense) named "Sanatan Dharma". Though Indian culture is very much influenced by Hinduism and Vedic Culture for last 5000 years, there is something beyond these, and that is "Sanatan Dharma".
Here, when I talk about lord Krishna's Bhagvad Gita, if you read even all pages of Bhagvad Gita, you will see that there is no word like "Hinduism". And here, what Krishna told about pure Bhakti yoga is the SAME as what ancient priests and nuns of western and eastern were/are also practicing
In brief, A religious person from India will consider his religion as Hinduism and a true spiritual person from India will see his Dharma as "Sanatan Dharma".
Here, I want to focus all of yours kind attention that I think it is very systematic approach those priests and nuns use. They use to have complete abstinence from the sexual activities (in celibate life) and moderation (in married life) and devote themselves to the god as much as possible. I am not against sex and understand its importance in procreation and even in true love. (In fact, I will also marry and will not have complete abstinence from it, but seeking god through sex MAY be part of Tantric Yoga but as Krishna said it SHOULD not be the part of pure Bhakti Yoga as at least to some extend you enjoy senses and senses must be directed to god and not to husband or wife, or to car, Aero-plane, to luxuries, to name or fame, to success, to passion)
When we read about Tantra, Kundalini Yoga, Hath Yoga, Meditation, Pranayama, Ashtanga Yoga, we starting exploring ourselves and learn these different ways to seek god and bliss. And yes, Bhakti is indeed there. BUT...
In these yoga, there is still a portion of desire, at least desire for bliss and salvation, desire to seek god but in Krishna's philosophy there is no desire at all, no attachment, no greed, no worldly pleasures, no sexual desire, there is simply surrender. (means whatever god wants for me, I will accept it and never ask god even for the liberation. I will do good Karma and be always on righteousness, I will love all and will serve the humanity with selfless service)
"A yogi never feels dejected if he is not married for the lifetime and he never gets over joyed even if he is married hundred times."
I do not condemn other yogas and also practice Gyana Yoga, Raj Yoga, Kundalini Yoga (I have read good enough about Kundalini Yoga) and solo Tantric Sex too.
"It is great that there are many approaches - since one approach will never work for all." As Katrine said on this post.
What I want to tell you about the Bhakti Yoga (as described in Bhagvad Gita, that is the most genuine spiritual text from India.)
Seeking for your valuable comment and please give me some good links for western spiritual souls, if you have. (I am heartily interested)
Regards,
Satchitanand |
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Chiron
Russia
397 Posts |
Posted - Jan 29 2011 : 04:15:20 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by satchitanand
One can attain unlimited organism without ejaculation and giving happiness to his consort and may feel highest bliss but he may or may NOT be able to develop kindness, honesty. He may not be able to conquer lust, anger, greed, hatred, jealously, passion, attachment to worldly pleasures and we may see that all these impurities are still there in a Tantric Yogi. But this possibility is very very less in a True Bhakti Yogi.
Wouldn't the experience of highest bliss automatically result in kindness and honesty? If the three channels are purified with the help of sexual energy then that will leave no avenue for anger, greed or ignorance to manifest. A blissful yogi is happy in a palace or a dark cave.
One probably cannot be a Tantric Yogi unless they are a Bhakti yogi, because the whole point is to concentrate on the divine at the moment of the highest ecstacy. And unless one is using every means and every type of energy available (including the sexual) to reach the goal, the one is not a true Bhakti Yogi either.
Celibacy is safer but it cultivates energy over a longer period of time. Whereas tantra is faster but riskier because one can spend alot of energy while still learning. It all depends on one's particular situation and condition and the availability of techniques and teachers.
Personally i am of the opinion that the Gods are not afraid of an erection..
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...ajuraho5.jpg |
Edited by - Chiron on Jan 29 2011 5:23:19 PM |
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satchitanand
India
57 Posts |
Posted - Jan 29 2011 : 06:25:18 AM
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Hi Chiron !
Thanks for your reply. I agree with your saying that:
"Wouldn't the experience of highest bliss automatically result in kindness and honesty?"
Yes...you are right. Whatever yoga we follow either it is Bhakti Yoga, Gyan Yoga, Raj Yoga or Tantra, once highest bliss is attained, it automatically develops kindness and honesty.
But when you say that:
Celibacy is safer but it cultivates energy over a longer period of time. Whereas tantra is faster but riskier because one can spend a lot of energy while still learning. It all depends on one's particular situation and condition and the availability of techniques and teachers.
Here, I sense that you are thinking that I am advocating celibacy over sexuality. No...it is not like that.
But see, in pure Bhakti yoga, the teacher is wihtin. And that teacher is god himself. Many people in India seek spiritual knowledge from Gurus and Spiritual teachers (Saffron Sadhus) . Sometimes, their faith and emotions are cheated when they find that the person whom they regard as their spiritual guru, is himself indirectly and in hidden engaged in those activities which are not suitable in that yoga system. For example, in a cases where a great spiritual leader of Indian origin was preaching on yoga, asanas, self control, self inquiry and such things, but he was trapped once engaged with sex with a women.
See this:
http://www.nowpublic.com/culture/sw...2585742.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-2M...ture=related
And it is not the case in India alone, it is every where in the world.
So do you think that all Tantric Yoga follower find very authentic and reliable Tantric teachers who are themself blissful. I do not think so. There may be few, very few (as I think).
You see what Swami Satyananada Saraswati (A great spiritual guru of Kundalini and Tantra) said in his book that:
All yoga practices are possible without any guru. But Kundalini and Tantra SHOULD NEVER be practiced without the proper and personal guidance of a guru who has regular eye on your activities.
While in Bhakti yoga, there is simply surrender to god and the result are also quick. The yoga is simple and safe. But few people adopt it.
Yes...when someone practice Tantra with a authentic and blissful guru then there is no harm but why to follow tantra by merely reading on internet and not thinking that it may be risky path and disturb mind.
Do you not think that there is at least some sex desire hidden in adopting Tantra over pure Bhakti (Where there is no need of any spiritual guru, god as inner guru is more than enough).
I agree with you that:
"One probably cannot be a Tantric Yogi unless they are a Bhakti yogi".
You see, if I get a Guru like Swami Sivananda or Swami Satyananda for Tantra practices, I will be very glad and surrender myself to such guru.
My question is not that why Tantra...why not Bhakti Yoga (even if one get a genuine Tantric Guru)
Rather, my question is: Why people are more interested in adopting Tantra when there are very less genuine gurus in this field and why not having self inquiry oneself when a god is the inner guru and he is there from the time of our birth.
Seeking for your valuable comments... |
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JDas
USA
74 Posts |
Posted - Jan 29 2011 : 06:33:44 AM
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Hi!
I think yogani has addressed your questions. http://www.aypsite.org/TantraDirectory.html Yogani upshot: Celibacy is cool and desirable, but for those who choose to enjoy sexual relations, the energy tapped during these encounters can be used for spiritual purposes. I believe that I myself have been drawn to Tantra because I believe Tantra is all about being in the present, about conscious living, feeling the weight of gravity in your feet as you walk, the tremoring power of just one conscious breath. It's all there in one breath. I was moved by the notion presented in one of Daniel Odier's books in which a teacher once said that everything s/he knows about Tantra is contained in the act of closing your eyes and feeling the breath as it moves through your nostrils, down your throat, into your lungs and then out.
Love! |
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satchitanand
India
57 Posts |
Posted - Jan 29 2011 : 06:45:51 AM
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And yes...for all
The link: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...ajuraho5.jpg
that Chiron provided is from Khajuraho temples (It is in Madya Pradesh, India)
Do you really know the meaning of these erotic pictures which are emgraved on the walls of the temple ???
You see, these pictures were not engraved to encourage the sexuality.
If you visit Khajuraho, and gets a proper guide, then he will explain you (and if he does not explain means he himself does not know well) that:
It is said that these pictures were to test the devotee's devotion.
When a devotee is visiting the temple...
(1) If he sees all these erotic pictures with enjoyment, means he is still allured by senses and has not developed true faith in god. (His nature is tamasic)
(2) If a devotee sees these pictures with an inquiry (why they are there), means he is entangled by the illusion of god (God's maya) and still needs development in this area.
(3) If a devotee sees these pictures, but without any attraction for them, he enters in the temple ignoring these erotic pictures, he is considered as a true Bhakta (true devotee), who has come to seek god's lotus feet and who has controlled his mind and passion.
Just for the information. |
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Clear White Light
USA
229 Posts |
Posted - Jan 29 2011 : 09:30:24 AM
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| One could spend a lifetime wondering why someone chooses to do one thing instead of another. Why Bhakti Yoga and not QiGung? Why not Zen instead of Islam? Why eat oranges instead of apples? You don't really have to choose. As for the likelihood of finding a more proficient "Bhakti" guru than a "tantric" one, that may be true. I wouldn't know about that specifically. Many people have successfully taken control of their own spiritual development without the need of a Guru at all by employing proper self-pacing. This is what is usually done here at AYP. |
Edited by - Clear White Light on Jan 29 2011 09:38:31 AM |
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Buffle37
Switzerland
79 Posts |
Posted - Jan 29 2011 : 11:08:09 AM
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Hi Satchitanand,
I know quite well Shri Aurobindo. When I was in my twenties, such a long time ago! ... I discovered Bhagavad- Gîtâ through “Essays on the Gîtà” by Shri Aurobindo translated in french. It was such a revelation.
Later in my life, I had been a follower of J. Krishnamurti whose lectures in Switzerland I attended many times in the seventies. Not anymore as I realized I arrived at a dead end. But I keep one thing of his teachings: I believe no more in Gods, Gourous and so called sacred books, I am only concerned by practice and to see what happens. The joy of the road is to discover and not to know the end by advance.
So, you understand I am so happy to have discovered Yogani with his so practical and experimental teachings.
You wrote:
“seeking god through sex MAY be part of Tantric Yoga but as Krishna said it SHOULD not be the part of pure Bhakti”
We don’t seek God through sex but rather use sex’s energy to seek God and
to speak as Krishnaji: it is not because Krishna says so and so that it is true. What matters is what YOU say.
Concerning “Sanatan Dharma” I have not enough knowledge to discuss it.
Regards
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satchitanand
India
57 Posts |
Posted - Jan 29 2011 : 2:18:35 PM
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Hi Buffle37 !
First, Thanks for your regular interest in this post. Well...I have not read much of the articles of Yogani as I am new to AYP and will go through it as much as possible.
Second, I too believe in doing experiments that is why I daily practice asanas, bandhas and pranayama. The term "Spinal Breathing" is new for me and I knew it when I came on this forum, but I think it is close to Kundalini (With inhale, feeling that Kundalini energy is raising through spinal column and with exhale, it is coming back down to the base)
And in fact, because I too believe in exploring myself, I have started practicing Tantric Solo Practics. Though I have strong belief that it should be in perfect guidance of a genuine teacher, I am trying to go for it with great care (After all practice may lead to good or bad results but these are experiments and nature is the perfect in governing if something is going right or wrong)
What you said:
"We don’t seek God through sex but rather use sex’s energy to seek God".
This can be agreed for those true aspirants who are sincere and understand true meaning of tantra. But in this materialistic world, honestly speaking they are few (according to me).
And you said:
"The joy of the road is to discover and not to know the end by advance".
Yes...it is true to discover but don't you think that when we talk about Bandhas, Pranayama, Yoga Asana, Kundalini and Tantra, all are already discovered. We are just practicing them.
Also:
"I believe no more in Gods, Gourous and so called sacred books"
Specially sacred book are not only "Bhagvad Gita", "Kuran" or "Bible". Even "Hath Yoga Pradipika", "Yoga Sutra" , "Gahendra Samhita" and "Shiv Samhita" are also sacred books which are adopted by all of us for these yoga asanas and pranayama. So, at least, I can NOT say that I do not belive in sacred books.
Then if we DO consider "Hath Yoga Pradipika", "Yoga Sutra" and "Gahendra Samhita" and "Shiv Samhita" for Ashtanaga Yoga (these mula bandha, ashvini mudra, chin lock where from they came ???, these all are not experimented here on this or any other forum)which were written by great yogis of ancient time, then why we deny those Supreme Yogis (Lord Krishna, Lord Jesus, Lord Buddha and Lord Shiva) and their sayings. Should we not adopt their sayings.
Regards,
Satchitanand
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Jan 29 2011 : 3:12:20 PM
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Meditation and devotion is the way to find God.
Once you find inner silence you can establish a connection with God or your own highest ideal.
Then when this connection is established you will find either that there are no holy books or gurus, or many books are holy and many gurus are holy, or sometimes both! In other words people and objects still belong to the material world, and our ultimate goal does not.
Even the greatest books and gurus are things that we must not attach ourselves to.
Sexual energy is the same energy as sacred energy. Sexual energy manifests in the sex organs, but can be moved out of that area, then you might not think it is sexual anymore. Or some people feel sexual energy over their entire body. Sex isn't something you give up to be spiritual. What you must give up is concentrating on sex in the worldly sense where it is only in the sex organs, and only for lust and procreation.
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jan 29 2011 : 6:04:04 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by satchitanand
(these mula bandha, ashvini mudra, chin lock where from they came ???, these all are not experimented here on this or any other forum)
Hi Satchidanand,
Welcome to the AYP Forum.
The three techniques you mentioned are discussed in the AYP Main Lessons:
Mulabandha / Ashvini
http://www.aypsite.org/130.html
Jalandhara
http://www.aypsite.org/139.html
Also, Tantra is actually a very comprehensive set of spiritual systems. Tantra Yogas of various types are found within both Hindu and Buddhist traditions, and they have very little to do with the sexual energy focus of what some people have come to call neo-Tantra (the sexually-focused sets of practices and energy work often called "Tantra", in current usage).
"Tan" comes from the Sanskrit word for expansion (as in expansion into awareness of our inherent wholeness), while "tra" comes from the Sanskrit root for a tool, and/or a protective device.
As the use of Mantra is a tool-set for protecting and expanding the mind ("Man" in Sanskrit), specifically, so Tantra is a tool-set for taking the very aspects of life which often bind us to artificially limited views (i.e. language, sex and sexuality, food, thinking, etc.), and utilizing those very aspects as tools for liberation.
Some of India's most profound, fully liberated and enlightened gurus (i.e. Abhinavagupta) and most profund sacred writings come from the Tantric traditions -- the Shiva Sutras, the Vijnanabhairava Tantra, the Yoga Spandakarika, etc.
For instance, the Vijnanabhairava Tantra offers 112 techniques, from all areas of life, each of which has one purpose: to help us access the infinite silence of our true nature, via the activities of daily life, and the aspects of life that are in harmony with the inherent design of our body-minds (i.e. breathing, sex, visualization, etc.).
The Vijnanabhairava helps us to do this by helping us to realize the silent, still center between any two moments, the inherent gap, between any two perceptions, any sense of subjectivity and any perception of object.
Finding and realizing this gap not only introduces us to our true nature in daily life, it also helps us to experience the reality that all perceptions, conceptions and activity arise from, display within, and subside into this that we each and all actually ever are, now.
True tantra could essentially be termed "the yoga of reality", and that term would not be misplaced.
The Shiva Sutras are structured based on a template of the full range of consciousness-being-bliss - the wholeness of awareness (1st section or awakening), the bridge that is the unity of true knowing (2nd section or awakening) and the forms and form-practices that help us realize the harmony of living (3rd section or awakening).
Online edition of the Shiva Sutras
This template is a container for all spiritual teachings, techniques, philosophies and yogas, be they bhakti, jnana, karma, raja, tantra or anything else -- and true tantra incorporates all of them, in varying degrees, according to the interest and readiness of the practitioner.
It's not an "either / or" situation, in my experience. The trajectory of sadhana is the trajectory from the illusions of partiality to the reality of wholeness.
Whatever helps us to move in the direction of the awareness of wholeness that is reality is good and useful; whatever causes us to remain trapped in the dream of partiality is not, yogically-speaking.
Here at AYP, our main emphasis is on consistency and stability in daily practices, because daily practices literally build the foundation of our liberation -- a reality articulated by the tantric Shiva Sutras, by AYP, and by other non-dual tantric/yogic systems of all types, found in all spiritual systems.
There's only one reality; there are an almost infinite number of paths to awakening into reality.
I hope this is useful.
Again, welcome to the AYP Forum.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
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Edited by - Kirtanman on Jan 29 2011 6:11:52 PM |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jan 29 2011 : 6:33:40 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by satchitanand
Do you really know the meaning of these erotic pictures which are emgraved on the walls of the temple ???
You see, these pictures were not engraved to encourage the sexuality.
Hi Satchidanand,
That may be one way to look at it (presumably a view from a specific bhakta path) but I respectfully disagree that the view you describe above was the primary purpose for the statues / carvings at Khajuraho.
Consider the time, the skill and the intricacy it took to design these sophisticated symbols, and then to literally carve the highly-detailed symbols into stone.
Temples were the Internet of that age; the important information, intended to reach as wide an audience as possible, was (and still is) encoded in the design of the temples, the symbolism of its structures, and the form of its rituals.
A significant amount of research has gone into various facets of the highly-sophisticated sacred geometry employed in the design of the Khajuraho carvings.
As just one example, here is an article on this symbolism by tantric author and University Professor, David Gordon White.
Article: Yantras and Tantric Symbolism in Hindu Temples
Beyond the intricate encoding of the sacred geometry and yantras, there is the symbolism of Shiva (male, awareness, stillness) and Shakti (female, form, motion), and the reality that reality is the celebration of their eternal union, now.
This symbolism is very fitting and clear, and was developed at a time when sexuality was less stigmatized than it is today. Sexuality was still stigmatized a bit, though, in those times -- hence the "in your face" carvings at Khajuraho and elsewhere -- the tantric temple designers were making an important point:
There is nothing non-sacred; there is only non-sacred interpretation by some.
For those who find the view that you described in your post to be useful to opening to a more expanded consciousness, that's great; it's all about what is useful.
My comments here are simply to point out that there is another view that has at least as much likelihood of reflecting the original intent of the designers of Khajuraho and its carvings, and which can be just as useful to releasing conceptions of limitation, which is at the very heart of sadhana.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
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Edited by - Kirtanman on Jan 29 2011 6:37:15 PM |
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Chiron
Russia
397 Posts |
Posted - Jan 29 2011 : 7:14:29 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by satchitanand
The link: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...ajuraho5.jpg
that Chiron provided is from Khajuraho temples (It is in Madya Pradesh, India)
Do you really know the meaning of these erotic pictures which are emgraved on the walls of the temple ???
To me it means that the Devas are in a constant state of ecstatic union and that everything in this world can be transformed and transcended including the strongest lusts and passions.
quote:
Originally posted by satchitanand
You see, these pictures were not engraved to encourage the sexuality.
Disagree, i think these engravings are a message to remind humanity that spirituality is not separate from sexuality. There are similar engravings on the Egyptian pyramids and the ancient tunnels in Peru.
quote:
Originally posted by satchitanand
But see, in pure Bhakti yoga, the teacher is wihtin. And that teacher is god himself.
quote:
Originally posted by satchitanand
All yoga practices are possible without any guru. But Kundalini and Tantra SHOULD NEVER be practiced without the proper and personal guidance of a guru who has regular eye on your activities.
Isn't God-Goddess also within for the Tantric Yogi/Yogini?
Why shouldn't Kundalini and Tantra be practiced without a proper and personal guidance of a guru?
For some people, especially those who have just started the spiritual path, this may be true, but for many, the intuitive guidance from the guru within is sufficient. At critical times some advice and help can be sought, in person or remotely like on this forum, but if one knows how to self-pace (http://www.aypsite.org/38.html), most of the practices can be done safely without external guidance.
quote:
Originally posted by satchitanand
While in Bhakti yoga, there is simply surrender to god and the result are also quick. The yoga is simple and safe. But few people adopt it.
If everything the brain knows is of limited nature experienced through the external senses, how can it then comprehend or surrender to the Infinite? Bhakti yoga is not as simple as it seems. It is extremely difficult for the normal mind to surrender to God-Goddess without a certain degree of realization.
"All works are being done by the Gunas of nature, but due to delusion of ego people assume themselves to be the doer" Bhagavad Gita (3.27)
Usually the idea, that everything we do and say, is not actually performed by us, does not sit well with people. But unless this is intuitively percieved and understood, then true surrender is not possible. And without a glimpse of realization of the Infinite which lies beyond the gunas, this intuitive perception is very difficult.
But once there is experience of our true transcendental nature then all life and actions become Bhakti Yoga, whether we are eating, having sex, driving the car, working or communicating with others.
quote:
Originally posted by satchitanand
Do you not think that there is at least some sex desire hidden in adopting Tantra over pure Bhakti
There is hidden sexual desire in both paths. It is difficult to be a pure celibate Bhakti yogi living in today's circumstances in modern cities. We are constantly exchanging energy with the people around us and are bombarded with information which triggers lust and passion though TV, commercials, etc.. Unless you are able to isolate yourself in a remote area or a monastery then forced celibacy will be counter-productive, bordering on hypocricy.
Fact is, once the aroused sexual energy is transmuted through tantra, this results in considerably weaker sexual lust and desire. Paradoxically filling the devotee with divine indifference, making them worthy to pass into the inner chambers of temples like the Khajuraho..
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Buffle37
Switzerland
79 Posts |
Posted - Jan 29 2011 : 10:07:13 PM
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Hi Satchitanand,
I am afraid you misunderstood me:
“Yes...it is true to discover but don't you think that when we talk about Bandhas, Pranayama, Yoga Asana, Kundalini and Tantra, all are already discovered. We are just practicing them.”
Of course I don’t want to rediscover Yoga. I have the deepest respect for the great Indian yogis and I try, as I can, to practice according to their teachings. What I mean is, you can read all the books of the earth about the taste of the bread if you don’t eat the bread you don’t know how it tastes. Today people all around the world are killing each other because of what they think of God or because so called sacred books have said so and so. Bullsh*t. Nobody, no books, no gurus, no saviors can say you what God is, you have to discover by yourself and that is the beauty of it. Of course, books or Gurus can show the way but it is all, you don’t have to believe them, you just have to try and see by yourself.
Regards
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JDas
USA
74 Posts |
Posted - Jan 29 2011 : 10:51:06 PM
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wow!
this is too much mind-stuff for me!
you guys are amazing!
is not all desire in actuality spiritual desire?
that's my understanding, but I could be wrong.
it's what I've read and it seem correct, but I and my sources could be wrong.
or are there varieties and degrees of desire?
if so then what to do?
or?
what does the word 'temptation' mean to you in this context?
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Jan 30 2011 : 02:19:17 AM
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JDas wrote:
"is not all desire in actuality spiritual desire? "
Good one JDas and I think it is true. But the problem is that people don't realize that. And when we concentrate on one earthly thing after another, it dilutes and distracts from spiritual desire. I think it requires our intention for the desire to become spiritual.
Like the person who eats to swallow emotions they don't want to face, we become absorbed in earthly desires and ignore their underlying cause. |
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satchitanand
India
57 Posts |
Posted - Jan 30 2011 : 02:38:54 AM
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O my god ! So many responses...
Now...let me think how I am going to manage to reply all of you friends.
Before replying, I thank all of you for taking interest in this post. And please do not mind if there is any disagreement. (We all are spiritual seekers). What I am feeling here that you all are supportive and willing to clear my doubts.
Let me do it one by one. (But I request you all to read the post completely so that you can know the different views and what I responded to others)
@Etherfish !
Then when this connection is established you will find either that there are no holy books or gurus, or many books are holy and many gurus are holy, or sometimes both
Sex isn't something you give up to be spiritual. What you must give up is concentrating on sex in the worldly sense where it is only in the sex organs, and only for lust and procreation.
I COMPLETELY agree with you for without any doubt.
@Kirtanman !
Tantra Yogas of various types are found within both Hindu and Buddhist traditions, and they have very little to do with the sexual energy focus of what some people have come to call neo-Tantra (the sexually-focused sets of practices and energy work often called "Tantra", in current usage).
I had heard about this "neo-Tantra" but have not read much about it. But the difference you gave between these two is good for basic understanding. Thanks.
"the Shiva Sutras, the Vijnanabhairava Tantra, the Yoga Spandakarika"
I have not read these books. Are they available online (preferrably in Hindi translation, as Hindi is my mother languagle)
That may be one way to look at it (presumably a view from a specific bhakta path) but I respectfully disagree that the view you describe above was the primary purpose for the statues / carvings at Khajuraho.
Certainly, it is for specific Bhakta path. The same thing is seen by different persons with different ways and they interpret it differently. I did not say anything that is different from you, may be I did not point out it in respect of Tantra and primary focused it with Bhakti Yoga followers.
1. A sexually ill person will simply see the nudity in these curving either he pretends to follow Tantra. (Tamsic Nature)
2. A yogi who is in confused of illusions whatever yoga (Tantra, Bhakti or Gyan) he follows, comes in this category. He will be confused. He will not get pleasure in looking at those nude carvings with "Maithuna" but he will ask himself "Why they are there ?" What is the reason behind it ? etc. (like me, I put myself here in this category as far as I know myself)(Rajsic Nature)
3. An enlightened person (full of knowledge whatever yoga Tantra or Bhakti, he fellows) like Abhinavagupta will either look or not look at them and will go inside without much concern. According to your writings and knowledge, I may also put you in this category though I am not sure for it because I do not know you well. (Satvic Nature)
So, basically what I told is not different from you. If there is any difference then it is in expression. But again, if you feel there is another difference, please let me know.
here is an article on this symbolism by tantric author and University Professor, David Gordon White.
I will go through the link that you provided. I do not know anything about the professor you mentioned but I will see it.
You see, there are many authors and their interpretations. And please don't mind but basically, I always feel that analysis of westerner researchers and philosophers are self centered (Katrine, who was first to comment on this discussion also agrees with this, see the comment)For example, you say that sexuality and spirituality can not be isolated from each other, but if I give you another example of "Shri Aurobindo" (who is also enlightened master), he rejects it completely and says that "there is no relation between sexuality and spirituality".
See the link: http://gopal4mission.wordpress.com/...arya-quotes/
And go in "Quotes by shri Aurobindo" and read his views (especially no.8)..."Sex and sexuality and all that springs from sex and testifies to its existence had to be banned and discarded from the spiritual life..."
"So how it is possible that some enlightened masters say there is relation while others say there is no relation. So, above all, we have to practice and experiment as "Buffle37" commented here on this discussion.
@Buffle37 !
I am afraid you misunderstood me
Yes...you are right. May be, I did not get you well. Sorry for that.
Bullsh*t. Nobody, no books, no gurus, no saviors can say you what God is, you have to discover by yourself and that is the beauty of it. Of course, books or Gurus can show the way but it is all, you don’t have to believe them, you just have to try and see by yourself.
I agree with you. That is the foremost fact and that alone can bring peace and love in the world.
@Chiron !
Disagree, i think these engravings are a message to remind humanity that spirituality is not separate from sexuality. There are similar engravings on the Egyptian pyramids and the ancient tunnels in Peru.
I, somehow, agree with what you say. But when it comes to relation of sexuality and spirituality, I do not agree or disagree that "Spirituality is separated or not separated from sexuality". But it seems that you agree with it. Please see the comment I passed to "Kirtanman" that some enlightened masters agree with it while others (one of the example is Shri Aurobindo) mainly from India deject this philosophy. Of course, they talk about sex sublimation but sexual activities (with are there in neo-Tantra, as mentioned by "Kirtanman") MUST be completely banned in spiritual life. They disagree with "Kamasutra" or "Curvings of Khajuraho". And they are also enlightened.
@JDas !
is not all desire in actuality spiritual desire?
No according to me all desire are not spiritual desire. Alexander and Hitler also had desire, were their desire spiritual !!!
Forget them. Let me give you another example. A desire of attraction to the opposite sex can NOT be considered as spiritual according to me. I have seen many people on public networks making friends and friends and without knowing them personally, a girl 'A' writes to another girl or boy 'B', that "you are really good person, keep it up", "you are fantastic".
But I claim, that once they personally meet each other and understand each other, most of the time, they will fed up with each other. Even in husband and wife, brothers and sisters and intimate relatives, there is disagreement, so where is the spirituality !
Bottom line is that..."We have to explore ourselves to distinguish that which desire is divine and which is worldly."
So...finally I think "All desires are not spiritual desires".
They have desire to make friends and friends and most of them are youngsters and they do NOT even think what is goodness and badness. The desire is there but where is the spirituality, please explain me !
"degrees of desire"
To be spiritual and to know spirituality, our desire MUST be on righteous side and there MUST be a higher degree for that. The discussion is one way to know the views of others and to get them well. Why I think in one way and why "Kirtanman" thinks other way, has a lot to go deep in spirituality.
Waiting for your valuable comments...
Satchitanand |
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satchitanand
India
57 Posts |
Posted - Jan 30 2011 : 03:22:04 AM
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Hi JDas !
I agree with Etherfish , he is right. What he said is 100 % true according to me. Well said Etherfish.
"the problem is that people don't realize that. And when we concentrate on one earthly thing after another, it dilutes and distracts from spiritual desire. I think it requires our intention for the desire to become spiritual."
Regards,
Satchitanand |
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satchitanand
India
57 Posts |
Posted - Jan 30 2011 : 05:03:45 AM
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Hi JDas !
Etherfish put the views in short and in better way than me, though I feel that the meaning is the same.
Regards,
Satchitanand |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jan 30 2011 : 11:38:37 PM
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Hi Satchidanand & All,
Satchidanand, thanks for your thoughtful responses; I very much appreciate your overall communication style.
Regarding the varying attitudes of enlightened masters:
Sri Aurobindo, for whatever his reasons may have been, was very sex-averse.
Ramana Maharshi, also recognized by many as a great, enlightened sage, was told of the fact that Sri Aurobindo welcomed married couples at his ashram, as long as they did not sleep together.
Sri Ramana responded, "What would be the point of that?"
Basically, it boils down to the sense of self (or lack thereof) held by a given teacher, and/or the sense of self being communicated to, in terms of the students or the disciples.
Sex and other physical desires and sensual pleasures are often recommended against, sometimes in early sadhana, or sometimes for all of it, depending upon the path or school in question.
Conversely, original tantra (as opposed to neo-tantra) was very open with sexual experience, but with the express understanding that it was never to be used as an excuse for lustful behavior, and thus, could really only be practiced by those who had realized the Self.
Obviously, sex and sexuality are inherent interests of the body-mind, in a similar manner that food, sleep and breathing are inherent interests -- they are all an obvious and natural part of the design.
However, these things can become confused with the whole of reality, and artificial over-focus on the physical, emotional, mental and sensual results .,.. binding the attention of inherently-liberated awareness to the fluctuations of the gunas (Tamas, Rajas, Sattva, as you mentioned in your comments).
And so, is following an ascetic or celibate path the answer?
For some, maybe, but especially in our modern, primarily "householder" lives, probably not.
It's not the engaging in natural activity -- any natural activity -- that is the problem, or that is spiritually negative.
These things are just physical.
The bondage is maintained at the mental and emotional levels (both sub-conscious and pseudo-conscious, i.e. unconscious memory, and the veil of maya - thinking mind - in present-moment experience), via the always partial, always ego-oriented evaluations of conditioned mind.
That is why tantric paths can be so risky, especially if there is any emphasis on sex (not all tantric paths are sexual; there are celibate Buddhist monks in tantric orders) - for those who may be motivated by desire of various types, or who may be subject to over-attraction to specific experiences, and so on, the very aspects of tantra that might benefit them, end up holding them back, spiritually.
All paths have this equivalent of being too lost in the realms of form (the original issue -- made worse when "worldly form" is simply exchanged for "spiritual form"). Even bhakti paths have this issue ... devotion can become over-emotionality, and conviction that one's ishta is better than other ishtas, as opposed to being rightly understood as a means, or vehicle to our own wholeness.
True bhakti is complete surrender - utter openness.
True jnana is unbound inquiry - utter openness.
True tantra is unified experiencing - utter openness.
As we practice, and thus create a foundation for a more still, open and complete consciousness and experience of life, the specific aspects of specific paths, whether bhakti, jnana, tantra, or anything else, that may be useful for us, will arise as areas of interest.
It's all about intention - what is our intention?
Sex can be pure prayer.
Prayer can be lust.
It's not the form -- it's the meaning, or not, that we give to any form.
Dropping the evaluations of limited mind is the gateway to wholeness.
Daily practices are the foundation upon which this gateway is built.
This has been my experience, anyway.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
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Edited by - Kirtanman on Jan 30 2011 11:39:22 PM |
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Why interest in Tantra...why not in Bhakti Yoga...
