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satchitanand
India
57 Posts |
 Posted - Jan 31 2011 : 02:36:39 AM
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Hi Kirtanman !
Thanks for your detailed reply. I too appreciate your knowledge and agree with your overall comment. Especially these quotes:
"However, these things can become confused with the whole of reality, and artificial over-focus on the physical, emotional, mental and sensual results .,.. binding the attention of inherently-liberated awareness to the fluctuations of the gunas (Tamas, Rajas, Sattva, as you mentioned in your comments)."
I agree with you.
Sex and other physical desires and sensual pleasures are often recommended against, sometimes in early sadhana, or sometimes for all of it, depending upon the path or school in question.
Yes...I welcome it with 100 % acceptance.
According to general view and my personal view too..."Sensual Pleasures MUST be strictly banned in early sadhana. However, once the aspirant is enlightened or free from duality, this condition DOES NOT apply. He is beyond Gunas. Whatever he does, he does freely because he he is NOT affected from pleasure-pain, loss-gain, happiness-sorrow, married-unmarried state, friends-enemies.
In addition, Let me mention that:
In Bhakti yoga of "Vaishavism" sector of India, the aspirants are taught to give up all the worldly desires including sex (complete abstinence for unmarried aspirants) and (Giving up sex for married people after progeny)
While in "Shaivism" sector, there is moderate acceptance for worldly attachments.
Daily practices are the foundation upon which this gateway is built
I agree with your saying.
Thanks again for sharing your views here on this post.
Regards,
Satchitanand |
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satchitanand
India
57 Posts |
Posted - Jan 31 2011 : 05:40:51 AM
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Hi Kirtanman !
Thanks for your detailed explanation. And I appreciate your knowledge. I fully agree with your sayings that:
Sex and other physical desires and sensual pleasures are often recommended against, sometimes in early sadhana, or sometimes for all of it, depending upon the path or school in question.
I do agree that in the early stages of sadhana, aspirants MUST be strictly banned for worldly pleasures and yoga practices MUST go under regular observance of a well qualified teacher(according to me particularly Kundalini and Tantra, which are risky compare to other yoga methods). Once an aspirant gets a higher level of understanding and understands this illusion of maya and duality of nature, he can do whatever he wants because he is free for joy and sorrow, gain or loss, happiness and sadness, comforts and discomforts etc.
However, these things can become confused with the whole of reality, and artificial over-focus on the physical, emotional, mental and sensual results .,.. binding the attention of inherently-liberated awareness to the fluctuations of the gunas (Tamas, Rajas, Sattva, as you mentioned in your comments).
Well said. You are right.
Daily practices are the foundation upon which this gateway is built.
Yes...I do agree that without daily practices, just like worldly achievements, we can NOT achieve our spiritual goals.
Thanks again.
Regards,
Satchitanand |
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satchitanand
India
57 Posts |
Posted - Jan 31 2011 : 10:56:00 AM
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Hi Kirtanman !
I am heartily thankful to you for your above detailed comment. I appreciate your knowledge.
I welcome your views with full acceptance.
Regards,
Satchitanand |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jan 31 2011 : 7:12:48 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by satchitanand
Hi Kirtanman !
Originally posted by Kirtanmanquote:
Sex and other physical desires and sensual pleasures are often recommended against, sometimes in early sadhana, or sometimes for all of it, depending upon the path or school in question.
Yes...I welcome it with 100 % acceptance.
According to general view and my personal view too..."Sensual Pleasures MUST be strictly banned in early sadhana. However, once the aspirant is enlightened or free from duality, this condition DOES NOT apply. He is beyond Gunas. Whatever he does, he does freely because he he is NOT affected from pleasure-pain, loss-gain, happiness-sorrow, married-unmarried state, friends-enemies.
Thanks again for sharing your views here on this post.
Regards,
Satchitanand
Hi Satchidanand,
Thanks for your comments and observations.
I think this was clear in my original post, but just to be sure:
My statement above regarding sex, or lack thereof, in sadhana, wasn't connected with any view; it was purely a statement regarding what goes on in certain paths. I understand you do have a related view, and that's fine.
My view, if it can be called such, is that the exact path and practices that may be helpful for one person, or not helpful for another, is a very individual thing -- and cannot really be evaluated at the level of mind.
That's because everyone has different vasanas (obstructions, conditioning based in egoic memory), which cause different emphasis to be placed on given attachments and aversions.
The ideal sadhana for any of us, is the path and set of practices which best helps us open past our conceptual limitations, including our limited sense of self.
As we progress in our sadhana, we open to our own highest consciousness, which helps all facets of sadhana and life to become more clear -- as Yogani says, "The Guru is in you".
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
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markern
Norway
171 Posts |
Posted - Feb 01 2011 : 3:04:56 PM
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You quoted some great Indian yogis advocating celibacy to preserve the energy of semen. THey are right that celibacy saves up a lot of energy as compared to having frequent ejaculations. However, if you have tantric sex properly you can preserve your seed, save your energy and actually increase it. My teacher who spent for years as a budhist monk in the tibetan tradition knows the benefits of celibacy very well. He says that having tantra style sex gives him about twice the energetic benefit that celibacy gave him. THis matches what is written in tantric journals and taoist sex manuals and hte experience of otehr practioners I have talked to. So strictly in terms of energy efficiency the best advice you can give to someone on the yogic path would not be to be celibate but to have tantric sex. WHen/if you get a partner you can do your own experiment. Go for three months as a celibate tehn have tantric sex in the style of Diane Richardson and what is instructed here: reuniting.info and compare the results.
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escapado
Germany
88 Posts |
Posted - Feb 01 2011 : 5:09:10 PM
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Oh my god, sheesh...
STOP following all these rules. No seriously! If you want to feel free and alive and blissfull your actions should not be the opposite.
See if an awakened soul has no interest in sex (for example) it does not mean that it makes you awake if you forbid yourself to have interest in sex. end of the story.
You can't imitate truth. And it makes me angry when I see how people blindly follow instructions and when they do it with discipline they feel better than those who don't although they don't say it / think it loud to the others or just in their heads. And I hate it when they try to change us because we are not holy/divine/spiritual enough. WE ARE THE SPIRIRT HOW THE HECK ARE WE NOT SPIRITUAL?... sorry for the outburst.
We don't need to change our bodies or souls. Oh and by the way India got pretty "Western", too, didn't it? I think in our world it does not make sense to cut it into countries although in the past India was very spiritually orientated.
Oh and by the way I think I like sex. Not because I can reach higher spiritual states but just for the love/fun of it. I love sex with a partner I love and oh my golly! - even with a partner I don't love ;) So what? Can you deny that it feels good? Is everyone so driven into seeking for "more" that they can't relax and enjoy the "unholy" or "worldly" stuff?
I like how there are plenty of serious seekers on these forums but you better wash that "divine" bs out of your brain because the mundane is divine and for me it is not about being so super divine and ending up as a spiritual snob. Even when I enjoy "higher" states of perception filled with deepest of love I enjoy drinking a beer with a good friend.
I might be wrong but please love yourself the way you are, you deserve THIS, which is the truth. You deserve better than the show you're playing on yourself.
Love, Escapado :) |
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machart
USA
342 Posts |
Posted - Feb 01 2011 : 10:44:52 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by escapado
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I like how there are plenty of serious seekers on these forums but you better wash that "divine" bs out of your brain because the mundane is divine and for me it is not about being so super divine and ending up as a spiritual snob.
Love, Escapado :)
THAT...was B E A utiful !
Welcome to the AYP forums Escapado! |
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cosmic
USA
821 Posts |
Posted - Feb 02 2011 : 12:33:04 AM
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Everything is Divine.
Do what you are drawn to and don't hurt anyone.
Love [img]icon_heart.gif[/img] |
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satchitanand
India
57 Posts |
Posted - Feb 02 2011 : 01:17:25 AM
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@markern and for all !
This is a new turning point to this post.
All other commentators seemed to be equal in Tantric Sex vs. Pure Bhakhi Yoga. I had received a mixed views and most of the commentators seemed to me very liberal in adopting a path according to condition, stage and choice.
But I sensed that "markern" has brought a new vision to his post. Thanks "markern".
Well...I do not know much Buddhist and Tao traditions, and, of course, what your teacher was saying is right in one context because I have also read a little about it: See the link:
http://ezinearticles.com/?Semen-Retention&id=54421
"In times gone by, the more well-to-do Chinese had many concubines. These were women that the man of the house would engage in sexual pleasure with. It was thought that he had so many women just for pleasure, and because he was rich, he could afford so many woman. It was thought, that he had so many women so he could "lay his seed" in them. Actually, he was bedding them to make them reach climax, this way he could steal their energy. How could these men sleep with so many women and not reach orgasm themselves? How were they able to keep their semen, and steal their lovers life-force? They practiced what is called semen retention exercises."
But, what I have seen is that (I am telling it in the context of Indian Scholars and Spiritual Personalitie)
Whatever revolution (changes) are made in the society, have been MOSTLY brought by those who follow a moderate (Self control and Sexual Abstinence) life style with perfect control over mind and its worldly desires. And NOT by those who USED to practice vigorous Tapas in caves and preserving energies using Tantra or other methods. They could enlightened themselves that way, but I have hardly heard that those practitioners have brought a new philosophy or they have given light to community at large.
Most of the Indian Spiritual Personalities advocate celibacy over other methods because the energy saved is automatically used for creative purpose of the mankind and for the spiritual progress of individual and for society. These people bring revolution.
For example, Swami Vivekananda (from India), he was a young scholar and spiritual leader, when he addressed people of America, he addressed like this:
quote:
"May 1900:“In my first speech in this country, in Chicago, I addressed that audience as ‘Sisters and Brothers of America’, and you know that they all rose to their feet. You may wonder what made them do this, you may wonder if I had some strange power. [blue]Let me tell you that I did have a power and this is it — never once in my life did I allow myself to have even one sexual thought. I trained my mind, my thinking, and the powers that man usually uses along that line I put into a higher channel, and it developed a force so strong that nothing could resist it.
He had the power to influence everyone. And he did too. BUT...
I have hardly seen or heard about anyone (either it is from ancient India or China or Buddhist nation) who changed the world with his Tantra or Taoist practices.
I will be thankful if you know such personalities and name them here so that I can read about them and know more about them.
Regards,
Satchitanand |
Edited by - satchitanand on Feb 03 2011 03:05:53 AM |
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maheswari
Lebanon
2516 Posts |
Posted - Feb 02 2011 : 02:52:18 AM
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Hello Sat Chit Ananda
intresting topic....i think that one should be completely honest about the presence of the sexual urge in him or herself....repressing does not help...a strong libido definitely helps in spritiual evolution...with time the libido will change its aspect
check osho book called from sex to superconscioness...it provides good insights
....meanwhile tantra can be used to preserve energy...also moderation and sticking to one partner is my personal goal...slowly it will evolve to hugs and thoughts sharing and just to be happy with the silent presence of the partner :))
...
also the explanation about Khajuraho temples is very accurate....
...
you see controlling the sexual urge is a very difficult task...like controlling the mind..it is like reversing the flow of the ganges back to its source ie gangotri....
so we have to take it easy
all the best :)
maheswari |
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satchitanand
India
57 Posts |
Posted - Feb 02 2011 : 04:07:53 AM
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Hi escapado and all !
Thanks for your comment. I also welcome your outburst.
quote:
"STOP following all these rules"
Escaoado
Which rules...???
We follow the rules for the benefits and welfare of ours. There are social rules for society, legal rules installed by governments and of course, in family also, we have family rules.
So, do NOT we obey all these rules !! So, likewise, there are spiritual rules also. As "Kirtanman" has said in this post and I agree with that "In early spiritual practices, we MUST follow the rules because rules MAY or MAY NOT affect already enlightened soul BUT for those who are in the beginning of their practices, they MUST abide by the rules.
quote:
And it makes me angry when I see how people blindly follow instructions and when they do it with discipline they feel better than those who don't although they don't say it / think it loud to the others or just in their heads.
Escaoado
First of all, do NOT get angry as it anger is against spirituality. Second, I feel that you are thinking that on this post, we are STRICT to one method over another. NO...It is NOT like that. In my early post, I have mentioned that "I USE TO READ MORE AND MORE ABOUT TANTRA AND STARTING SOLO TANTRIC METHODS". So, please understand that we are NOT against each other. We are just putting our views and get to know MORE about what other spiritual seekers are experiencing.
For example, in my last post, I gave one example of Swami Vivekananda, NOT to force you all to follow him. I gave that example JUST to tell you about his views. If you read Indian History, you will find that he was NOT an ordinary being, he was one of the greatest spiritual personalities of modern India.
Now, this way, all other commentators got to know about him (I provided the links also). Same way, I also ask for the links from other commentators. (You can see the previous posts.)
quote:
And I hate it when they try to change us because we are not holy/divine/spiritual enough. WE ARE THE SPIRIT HOW THE HECK ARE WE NOT SPIRITUAL?... sorry for the outburst.
Escaoado
I AM SORRY IF YOU FELT LIKE THAT. NO BODY HERE IS TELLING YOU UNHOLY OR IMPUTE. AND, OF COURSE, NOBODY WANTS TO CHANGE YOU.
According to me:
1. A spiritual person NEVER sees himself superior to others. He sees the divine light in everyone. For him, even the lower animals and birds are also spiritual souls and he loves them. (That is why, in ancient India and especially in Bhakti Yoga Tradition of India, NON-VEGETARIAN is NOT ALLOWED. The devotees ONLY take pure Satvic food make of rice, milk, wheat, fruits and vegetables. (Now, again, I am not going to change anyone, I am just putting my views.). Those devotees think that "How we can kill and eat a creature ONLY for the sake of our taste and pleasure".
2. The spiritual seeker is also humble and kind. He puts his views very politely and listens to others views very kind heartily. Because, he thinks himself more inferior than the straw in the street (as per Lord Chaitanya Mahaparbhu, who was ancient spiritual soul of eastern India), he always bows down to others and never OPPOSE them unless something is going against DHARMA.
3. He always practice to conquer ANGER, LUST, GREED and OTHER DESIRES. This way he NEVER gets outburst.
This is spiritual in true sense according to my views even if we are not enjoying worldly things or awakening Kundalini or or getting salvation or eternal bliss.
quote:
Oh and by the way India got pretty "Western", too, didn't it?
Escaoado
Yes...you are right that is why India lost ancient reputation. The past is glorious but unfortunately not the present. All of us know that Yoga originated in India for thousand of years before but now VERY FEW practice yoga. A large part of Indian community is MORE interested in MOVIES, CINEMAS and CRICKET. But, when it is Yoga and spiritual talks, People get less interest. People spend much money on worldly pleasure, they each rubbish things and when they get sick and unhealthy, they RUST to Yoga and proper living and eating. Is it a wise act ???
So, I agree that India has lost its glorious past but may be it will gain it again and I appreciate that westerners are MUCH interested in Yoga and systematic life.
In Indian and Chinese History, Bodhidharma, an ancient Buddhist Monk (Buddhism flourish in India but later moved to China and Japan) from India traveled to China and started to teach martial arts there(though some sources say that martial arts were practiced there even before his arrival). Now the condition is that martial art is practiced and encouraged more in Japan and China compare to India. Is it good in context of India ??? NO.
Now, we all have heard about "Nude Yoga" which is widely spreading in western countries and many are following. At least for me, I have never heard that in India "Nude Yoga" was ever encouraged or practiced PUBLICLY. For me, it is WRONG, but I do NOT get outburst.
See What I feel is that:
quote:
"Yoga and Pranayama and Meditation are NOT ONLY to be done in the front of a teacher in a class room or in a dark meditation room with candle in the front of eyes."
One should be established in yoga in every condition of life.
When we are continuously thinking of god in all of our work, we are established in yoga.
When someone abuses us and disrespects us and we are able to control our anger without trembling our nerve system, we are established in yoga.
--->When we are able to protect others against non-violence and injustice, we are established in yoga
--->When we are humble, kind, non-jealous, non-possessive, non-attatched and have equal eye for all beings, we are established in yoga.
Bottom-line, Establishment in yoga is the goal and NOT only performing Yoga.
Regards,
Satchitanand |
Edited by - satchitanand on Feb 03 2011 03:18:04 AM |
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satchitanand
India
57 Posts |
Posted - Feb 02 2011 : 04:29:36 AM
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Hi cosmic !
Thanks for your reply. But I think neither me (as I have cleared) nor other commentator is hurting anyone. Our posts are to share the views and to know each other better. If someone gets hurt, he get hurt because of the ego that is deep hidden in human nature.
And you see, here we have to understand that greed, anger, ego, jealously, hatred, lust are our true enemies and our own nature is their residence. They are deep hidden in us. So, we have to get victory over them. When we use words i.e. I hate those, I get angry, I get outburst, we have to improve ourselves. When natural coolness, kindness comes then we have conquer the enemies hidden within and we throw them out. This way we conquer anger and then WE DO NOT FEEL THAT SOMEONE IS HURTING US. We see beyond respect and disrespect It is the purpose of being in mundane and spiritual life.
Thanks again and please let us know "Is it you who felt being hurt ?.
Regards,
Satchitanand
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satchitanand
India
57 Posts |
Posted - Feb 02 2011 : 09:11:27 AM
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Hi Maheshwari !
Thanks for being part of this discussion. Here I welcome you the same way I welcomed you for that another post.
I hope you sense that I am not against Tantra or any other method for spiritual progress. I do not know much about Taoist tradition, Tantra tradition and western analysis and philosophy, so this discussion has given me a chance to see the views of others, where I can interact with westerner practitioners also. I did NOT know even to put it in the right sub-forum, before I had put it in "Satsang" forum.
So you all can understand that my intention is NOT to hurt feeling of any other. I am new to this forum and for me what I feel I expressed. And yes, I admit that most of my views are based on VERY GREAT SPIRITUAL LEADERS OF INDIA. It is NOT like, I am giving my views, I am doing a research like work and trying to understand the thinking of eastern and western philosophers, the commonness and differences. (Because I feel that on this subject, the difference is there.)
In case, someone gets hurt from my views, I personally ask sorry for that.
Regards,
Satchitanand |
Edited by - satchitanand on Feb 03 2011 03:22:29 AM |
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cosmic
USA
821 Posts |
Posted - Feb 02 2011 : 4:26:40 PM
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Hello satchitanand
Thank you for expressing your views. Please understand that I don't accuse anyone of hurting anyone. My heart felt to offer some words of Love and encouragement to whoever might read this. Whatever path brings each person to God is perfect for them, and very beautiful. Whether it is Bhakti, Tantra, sex, celibacy, etc. That's all I meant.
quote:
Originally posted by satchitanand
Thanks again and please let us know "Is it you who felt being hurt ?.
No, I don't feel hurt. I feel wonderful. Thank you for caring enough to ask
My love to you [img]icon_heart.gif[/img]
With Love and Gratitude
cosmic |
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Chiron
Russia
397 Posts |
Posted - Feb 04 2011 : 1:46:47 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by escapado
Oh and by the way I think I like sex. Not because I can reach higher spiritual states but just for the love/fun of it. I love sex with a partner I love and oh my golly! - even with a partner I don't love ;) So what? Can you deny that it feels good? Is everyone so driven into seeking for "more" that they can't relax and enjoy the "unholy" or "worldly" stuff?
I like how there are plenty of serious seekers on these forums but you better wash that "divine" bs out of your brain because the mundane is divine and for me it is not about being so super divine and ending up as a spiritual snob. Even when I enjoy "higher" states of perception filled with deepest of love I enjoy drinking a beer with a good friend.
Beer induces a gross materialistic mindset and is incompatible with higher states of perception. If one is aware that they are Spirit then one should also know that Spirit is independent of everything in this world and does not require any experience.
Not pretending to be divine or anything, just not into degeneration or unnecessary headaches and heartaches - which would be the consequence of drinking alcohol for many long term practitioners.
Just because a dog feels good when eating sh*t doesn't mean we should do the same. The kind of sex mentioned is only fun at the beginning, like eating junk food, feels exciting at first but the result is diarrhea.
A rush of ecstacy through the spine at the mere thought of one's cherished lover eliminates all ideas of engaging with anyone else. Having sex with various partners creates energy bonds which may be incompatible with one's long-term goal and purpose. And if there isn't a purpose, well, if one can have fun playing this game without a purpose that's great, one must be quite advanced then. But observation has shown hypocricy to be more common than true indifference. |
Edited by - Chiron on Feb 04 2011 3:57:15 PM |
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satchitanand
India
57 Posts |
Posted - Feb 05 2011 : 10:17:29 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Chiron
Beer induces a gross materialistic mindset and is incompatible with higher states of perception. If one is aware that they are Spirit then one should also know that Spirit is independent of everything in this world and does not require any experience.
Just because a dog feels good when eating sh*t doesn't mean we should do the same. The kind of sex mentioned is only fun at the beginning, like eating junk food, feels exciting at first but the result is diarrhea.
Hi agree with you Chiron. You are correct. Beer and uncontrolled sex give miseries. And for overall physical, mental and spiritual health, one MUST give up these things.
Regards,
Satchitanand |
Edited by - satchitanand on Feb 05 2011 10:49:29 AM |
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omarkaya
Spain
146 Posts |
Posted - Feb 10 2011 : 10:34:31 AM
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| hello satchidananda,yes you are right bhakti is the highest yoga and the most difficult because it needs sincerity true devotion you can lie to your self but you cant lie to god.bhakti means to love god more than anything in this world see only god and in this materialistic world its something hard to achieve such feeling.many people perform puja recite mantras and do many things to please god but what is inside them at the moment to perform these rituals?only they know.for me the secret to achieve bhakti starts by purifiying your body and mind through satkarmas when you become purified, spirituality arises espontaneously and the secret comunication with god can take place,once that you have felt the presence of god depending on your nature and depending on the nature of the comunication you can become a great bhakta so much that you could pass as a crazy person to other peoples eyes as it happened with santa teresa de jesus or san francisco de asis or many christian saints or as it happened to rama krishna and so many indian saints.aham brahmasmi tat tvam asi |
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satchitanand
India
57 Posts |
Posted - Feb 12 2011 : 04:21:20 AM
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Hello omarkaya !
Thanks for your opinion and taking part on this post.
quote:
Originally posted by: omarkaya
hello satchidananda,yes you are right bhakti is the highest yoga and the most difficult because it needs sincerity true devotion you can lie to your self but you cant lie to god.bhakti means to love god more than anything in this world see only god and in this materialistic world its something hard to achieve such feeling.
Yes...I do fully agree with you. In "Uddhav Gita", lord Krishna says to his disciple (and friend) named "Uddhav" that "There is NOTHING equal to Bhakti".
I basically belong to India (though right now I am temporarily settled outside India). That is why I have NOT read much about western saints and philosophers but yes, I use to read the teachings of Lord Jesus and always try to implement them in my own nature.
I am heartily inclined to Lord Krishna and when I remember him, I can see lord Shiva, lord Rama, lord Buddha, lord Jesus and all great spiritual souls in his image and this way I read more and more about them and try to follow their instructions. I feel that something is regularly improving in myself.
Most People emphasis on "God is with form or formless" and they argue on this and develop their faith in one or another philosophy and make worldly religions. According to me, that is NOT very important. Important is that we have to purify our body, mind, nature and soul. We have to develop a good conduct that is FREE from anger, greed, passion, uncontrolled sensual pleasures, hatred, bad habits and other bad characteristics with are AGAINST god and spirituality.
And, what I feel that "Simply the full devotion (though it is too hard) in god is all enough to achieve this true goal of life because it can remove all bad characteristics and change us from human to superhuman."
Thanks again.
Regards,
Satchitanand |
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Why interest in Tantra...why not in Bhakti Yoga...
