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mimirom
Czech Republic
368 Posts |
 Posted - Jan 10 2011 : 5:06:47 PM
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Hi everybody,
I haven't been posting to the forums for more then one year now. The reason is that there was really nothing to write about. My practice did not yield any noticeable results for about 16 months.
To the present day, my practice routine grew to a fairly comprehensive one, with things like yoni mudra kumbakha, kechari mudra 3, nauli and first mantra enhancement included, taking more than one hour to complete. But right now, I'm seriously thinking about sopping all practices from tomorrow morning, in order to start once again from the very beginning.
The reason for that is the following sudden realization (at last!  ):
There is, and always has been, something fundamentally wrong with my practice of Deep meditation.
Because:
1) The mantra never disappears. Cases when I have lost the mantra are practically nonexistent.
2) The mantra practically never refines. If it occasionally does, then only to a somewhat fuzzier level, and this is then accompanied by feelings of tension and urge. The mantra actually gravitates towards a grosser form.
3) Meditation is in 95% of the cases a busy time for me. Feelings of inner turmoil, pressure, tension and urge are by far the most typical experience during DM. No sense of profound rest ever comes.
4) During the more then 1500 meditation sessions that I completed during the last 28 months, no gap of awareness has ever occurred. Not one single time.
The question I seem to be interested in the most right now is:
Is it possible that the mantra I AM is just completely unsuitable for me, because it consistently fails to exhibit the very basic features it is supposed to have right from the beginning of practice?
Any comments and shared experiences are sincerely appreciated 
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Edited by - AYPforum on Jan 11 2011 09:42:39 AM |
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AYPforum
351 Posts |
Posted - Jan 11 2011 : 09:42:39 AM
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cosmic
USA
821 Posts |
Posted - Jan 11 2011 : 11:12:41 AM
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Welcome back, man. You were missed 
Great idea re-starting from the very beginning. I did this at one point, for the same reasons as you, and it was the beginning of real progress for me. Are you under-sensitive to practices? If so, it's possible that you were taking on too much and were not aware of subtle overload. I don't mean to project my own experience onto you, but you do sound a lot like I did not too long ago.
Re-starting with only DM ("I AM" mantra) and taking it slow was exactly what I needed.
quote:
Originally posted by mimirom
My practice did not yield any noticeable results for about 16 months.
I would invite you to take a look at your personal life and see who you are now vs. who you were 16 months ago. Sometimes it's hard to see ourselves clearly, and often we don't give ourselves enough credit. Especially if you are in fact under-sensitive, a lot of groundwork could be happening just below the surface that you're not aware of. At least this is my experience.
Love
cosmic |
Edited by - cosmic on Jan 11 2011 11:15:18 AM |
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yogani
USA
5242 Posts |
Posted - Jan 11 2011 : 11:21:11 AM
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Hi mimirom, and welcome back.
If you have not already, also check this lesson on optimizing deep meditation practice: http://www.aypsite.org/366.html
All the best!
The guru is in you.
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Jan 11 2011 : 11:27:43 AM
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Hi mimirom, nice to see you back here
My experience is very similar to Cosmic's and I too would suggest that you go back to square one. I had an extensive practice routine for over 2 years straight....about 3 hours of practices per day using basically everything AYP had to offer.....and then I got to a point (catalyzed by the October AYP retreat in PA) where even 20 minutes of DM started to push me over the energetic edge. I backed off of everything, went back to just 20 mins of DM (followed by 20 mins of rest) for a couple of months, and just now am getting back into a bit of SBP, samyama and a few minutes of asana.
I would suggest reviewing the lesson Yogani has posted above and then start from the beginning again. What is there to lose?
Great to have you back here man 
Love!
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mimirom
Czech Republic
368 Posts |
Posted - Jan 11 2011 : 6:03:26 PM
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Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhh.....
What a relief! Suddenly being able to do the unimaginable and drop all the practices in favor of rediscovering the true reason why I am doing all this. First I need to go to bed now and have a good sleep.
I love you, friends.
Namaste. |
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mimirom
Czech Republic
368 Posts |
Posted - Jan 13 2011 : 11:18:54 AM
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Ok, first of all thank you for your comments and recommendations, cosmic, yogani and carson, and for the warm "welcome back". You're being great, as always.
It's really helpful to know that feeling the urge to drop all practices and start over seems to be quite common development. Once again I could identify a sense of "competitiveness" in my spiritual endeavors. Adding all the crazy practices as quickly as possible, basically with the only goal to have them all... Well, spiritual progress is not synonymous with adding and doing loads of hardcore esoteric practices. I see.... It's not the first time I'm trying to learn this lesson.
quote:
I would invite you to take a look at your personal life and see who you are now vs. who you were 16 months ago. Sometimes it's hard to see ourselves clearly, and often we don't give ourselves enough credit. Especially if you are in fact under-sensitive, a lot of groundwork could be happening just below the surface that you're not aware of. At least this is my experience.
Well, those 16 months ago I had my last serious breakthrough, that enabled me to quit all drugs. (That was a big one, in my case.) From then on I can really say that I'm a very happy and equanimous person, with a fine-tuned lifestyle, following steadily my spiritual goals and being clearly aware of meaning and purpose of my life. My developmental stage is more then standard for sure. And that is also not the thing I am concerned with. I perceive my problem more in the practices themselves.
Thanks for the lesson on under-sensitive meditators, Yogani.
I read through it and I'm still unclear about my situation. I don't know if I'm under-sensitive. There have been times, in the first year of my ayp practice, during which I had many powerful and impressive experiences resulting from the practices of ayp. At certain moments it was very dramatic. At some point then everything became kind of dull and all signs of progress disappeared somewhere. That was one year and a half ago.
The lesson on under-sensitive meditators was quite interesting though, because of the summary of most common misunderstandings about the technique of DM. I believe I'm quite clear about the technique, but despite that my Dm sessions leave me unsatisfied. It is not so much that I would by eager for experiences or dramas in my life - I understand that different things happen at different times. What disturbs me is, that DM as I experience it does not deliver some of the very basic processes it is supposed to deliver, according to instructions.
The most disturbing thing is that I never loose the mantra. I swear I don't. It might sound strange or even impossible, but it is true. I mean I'm well aware of the pitfalls of mechanical repetition, clear pronunciation and fighting thoughts. So I always "offer" the mantra freedom in my sessions, being willing to follow any form or rate of repetition it wants to take on, I pay attention to "holding it loosely" so it may go whenever it wants. But it seems that the mantra doesn't want to go anywhere. It just stays. It might refine a bit, but never disappears. I might have some thoughts+mantra, but my mind never wanders during DM. It's crazy
How can I follow the instruction to go back to the mantra whenever I notice I'm off it, when I'm never off it... So this means I'm missing an essential part of the process. If I don't get lost at some point, then I don't reach stillness, right?
Well, let me experiment a bit with practicing only pure DM for some time. Maybe there will be some results. Also, a new meditation teacher moved to our town lately, and we got in contact almost immediately by a synchronistic event. His very clear and concise lecture on meditation made me realize I need to revisit my practice. He teaches Vedic meditation (after Thom Knoles) and I'm going to attend a training in it this weekend. I'll get given a personal mantra, so that will be another opportunity to experiment. The teacher told me he read Yogani's Deep Meditation book and that the instruction on DM given by Yogani is word for word identical with what they teach as Vedic meditation in their system. Except the mantra. So if I discover that I'm resistant to the I AM mantra, that would certainly be an interesting point too.
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yogani
USA
5242 Posts |
Posted - Jan 13 2011 : 11:38:58 AM
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Hi mimirom:
The thing is, a subjective evaluation on what is happening with the mantra during meditation is never going to yield accurate information. The only true measure of it is in how we feel in daily activity. On that score, you seem to be doing very well.
It seems there is something in you that needs to be validated by the subjective experience in meditation. You will never find it there. The process can be anything according to the unfathomable unwinding of inner obstructions that the procedure of meditation facilitates. That need for validation during deep meditation can be regarded like any other thought or feeling that comes up. In that, we just ease back to the mantra.
If we have repeated the mantra twice in deep meditation with one thought in-between (or during), we have lost it once. If we have repeated the mantra 100 times in deep meditation, we have lost it 99 times. Hopefully that will help you feel better.
Just do it, let it go, and enjoy the benefits in your daily life. That is the suggestion.
All the best!
The guru is in you.
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chas
USA
209 Posts |
Posted - Jan 13 2011 : 12:19:47 PM
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| I have had that kind of experience as well. The solution for me has been to ask myself to say it softer, quieter..If you don't mind me asking, do think it's possible that you are entering stillness but you are just too focused on what's on the surface, i.e. -the mantra?(I ask because I get the feeling that you probably are, but there is nothing in stillness for the mind to grasp at. The mind habitually tries to grasp, so when you come out or become aware of something else, thoughts, dense mantra etc... the mind is confused)...Also, I think it's helpful to intend to focus inward, introverting the senses, but that may be contrary to the Ayp method, I'm not sure...Regarding the no gap in awareness, I think that is great. Do you think you should not stay continuously aware? Thanks... |
Edited by - chas on Jan 13 2011 4:13:58 PM |
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chas
USA
209 Posts |
Posted - Jan 13 2011 : 12:32:45 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by yogani
Hi mimirom:
The thing is, a subjective evaluation on what is happening with the mantra during meditation is never going to yield accurate information. The only true measure of it is in how we feel in daily activity. On that score, you seem to be doing very well.
It seems there is something in you that needs to be validated by the subjective experience in meditation. You will never find it there. The process can be anything according to the unfathomable unwinding of inner obstructions that the procedure of meditation facilitates. That need for validation during deep meditation can be regarded like any other thought or feeling that comes up. In that, we just ease back to the mantra.
If we have repeated the mantra twice in deep meditation with one thought in-between (or during), we have lost it once. If we have repeated the mantra 100 times in deep meditation, we have lost it 99 times. Hopefully that will help you feel better.
Just do it, let it go, and enjoy the benefits in your daily life. That is the suggestion.
All the best!
The guru is in you.
This is spot on, in my experience. My mind seeks validation often. Lately, I just accept it as it is and smile at it. This brings peace and puts the mind at ease. |
Edited by - chas on Jan 13 2011 12:34:52 PM |
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Clear White Light
USA
229 Posts |
Posted - Jan 13 2011 : 12:56:18 PM
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Hi mimirom,
I've been hesitant to reply to your post due to a serious lack of time in my life right now. But there was one aspect of your post that really resonated with me that I feel I want to respond to. You mentioned how 95% of the time your meditation sessions are filled with anxiety, tension, pressure, etc. This has often been my experience as well. What I have come to realize is that this anxiety, tension and pressure is actually present all the time. It's not as if these feelings just appeared out of nowhere when it was time to meditate and disappeared as soon as I was finished. The process of meditation simply allows us to see more clearly what is already going on within us all the time. I think the fact that you are aware of the extent to which this inner turmoil occurs is actually a sign of progress. This process of bringing the nature of the mind into awareness over and over again will purify us and eventually allow us to perceive the silence that is already within and all around us.
Also you mention how the mantra tends to gravitate towards a grosser versus a subtler form. If your mind is so full of anxiety and turmoil, how do you expect to be able to go deep? It is only natural that mantra cannot penetrate as deeply into a very obstructed nervous system as it can in a very purified nervous system. This is all just a part of what has to happen. It will happen with any mantra or system of meditation. The more time we spend bouncing around from system to system the longer it will take to get through this stage. |
Edited by - Clear White Light on Jan 13 2011 3:51:22 PM |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Jan 13 2011 : 1:56:55 PM
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Give up trying so hard.
You have already had a massive break through which showed that something changed. You cannot expect that all your efforts will be rewarded in such a visible way. You are pregnant with expectation , flushed with success and trying to force the next thing to happen. It's good that your Bhakti is so strong, just give up the expectation and all will be in balance.
I had the same experience.
Action without action, effort without effort. |
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cosmic
USA
821 Posts |
Posted - Jan 13 2011 : 8:01:45 PM
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Congrats on quitting drugs, bro. Personally, I wouldn't worry about not losing the mantra. I know losing it is part of the process, but so is not losing it (IMHO). I've gone through periods of not losing the mantra, and it has worked beautifully in the long run.
I'd also suggest questioning the "signs of progress". I've recently come to realize (in my own journey) that Love is the only real indicator of progress. Mystical experiences, visions, energy, etc. are secondary to Love, Peace, Happiness, etc. At least in my book 
Much love to you. Quitting drugs is definitely a "sign of progress" IMO.
With Love
cosmic |
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Yonatan
Israel
849 Posts |
Posted - Jan 13 2011 : 9:51:02 PM
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Hi Mimirom, just giving you a big thumbs up and wishing you continued success with the practices (seems to me it is working from what you say).
Love and Enjoy |
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Holy
796 Posts |
Posted - Jan 13 2011 : 11:19:16 PM
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Hi mimirom,
I know it is not easy to go on trusting if no results come out of it.
An analogy could help to understand your situation.
If you clean the dishes (=P) with your hands and something to rubb out the dried stuff, you will notice some things. Some parts dissolve very fast into the flowing water, some others don't and need some extra rubbing. Some very very thickened parts will even need very intense rubbing for many many seconds and perhaps even hotter water.
It is the same with meditation. The initial progress can be a wow, than a loonger period could be just as you describe. But know, that everything behaves according to the same rules. As above, so below. So continuity of the repetition of the mantra will rubb out whatever comes in the way for very shure over the longterm. Perhaps some time, other rubbing-materials are needed (like mudras and bandhas) or just more water (SPB), or even very hot water (YMK). But if you don't want to burn your fingers, sometimes a more relaxed approach and some more seconds/minutes will make the dish-cleaning more comfortable.
If, however you have never exprienced silence, peace and bliss and a rising witnessing state, you should practice another kind of meditation. Even if it just to see that such thing exists and is possible with you. But if such things happend with DM, even if once, you can really trust this and just go on with your daily practice.
Sometimes, a special kind of waterflow can massage and relax the fingers a bit, so that you don't have to feel uncomfortable during cleaning. It is called nadisodhana or alternate nostril breathing and could make the transition into silent bliss more easy. It helped me very very much too and over time I did both ANB and SBP with a 50:50 relation. Later it changed to 30:70 and now I am very happy that I could make the transition to SBP alone. Just as a consideration..
Don't worry, everything is solvable =) |
Edited by - Holy on Jan 13 2011 11:27:33 PM |
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dave
USA
15 Posts |
Posted - Jan 14 2011 : 10:02:39 AM
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Often during meditation, one part of my mind will be saying the mantra and another part will be wandering which sounds similar to your experience.
Whether I'm feeling some emotions, seeing lights, or just having thoughts at the same time as I say the mantra, I always consider those times to be off mantra. They're like the tide pulling at my feet, while the mantra is a rope keeping me from being swept out to sea.
Now that I think about It, I'm not sure if I'm ever completely on the mantra. |
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mimirom
Czech Republic
368 Posts |
Posted - Jan 17 2011 : 10:41:57 AM
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Hi everybody once again,
a sincere thanks to all of you, dear friends. After some 18 months of practicing in a very focused and uncompromising style a fundamental ambiguity has finally arisen. I'm very happy about this development, since meanwhile I came to the understanding that in every creative process we must go through a stage of ambiguity (and be willing to stay with that ambiguity for some time, not knowing where we are going), in order to be able to experience the desired creative quantum leap, by which of course I mean the shift to the next stage of our development. For this state of ambiguity to occur (as I understand it right now), many different perspectives are necessary, among which one can lose the tight identification with one's old paradigm, and from which finally a new one crystalizes. It is you, dear friends, who provides these much needed different perspectives, and so it is also you, who enables other yogis here on the forums to take their creative leaps and so experience most profound happiness. Thank you so much
During this weekend I participated in a standard 2-day "Vedic meditation" intensive. It was a good course in Deep meditation, containing a puja, 4 lectures on the technique, 2 group meditations and Q&As. Each participant got given a personal mantra, which for me personally turns out to be somewhat different then AYAM (and I'm staying with AYAM for now.)
I must say that I got some new understanding of how deep meditation works and, especially, how to self-sufficiently optimize the process. Plus, of course, I now have a 30 years experienced DM practitioner and trained teacher, who lives nearby and is ready to give me advice whenever I might need it.
I think that I'm slowly getting some understanding of what's up with my practice, thanks to your comments, dear fellow yogis, and the Vedic meditation course, especially the third lecture. Right now I'm pretty convinced that there really was an active factor, that prevented the mantra to refine and sink under a certain level during my DM practice. I can see now more clearly, that there are 2 phases in the meditation process. The VM teacher called it "the inward stroke of meditation" and "the outward stroke." The former is when the mantra gets naturally quieter in the mind and takes us to deeper levels of consciousness (this is when our breath tends to slow down or stop, and physical activity lessens.) Once we reach a certain depth, it becomes possible for the body to release some obstruction (traumatic record.) This release produces an outward energetic flux, and the obstruction, carried by this outward flux, bubbles up into our consciousness, in the form of thoughts or emotions or automatic physical activity, and in this way it gets released. So this outward flux goes in the opposite direction (towards the surface, "conscious", where we are during activity) than the mantra during it's journey inward (depth, "subconscious", pure consciousness.) What we do in meditation then is repeating this cycle again and again. Going deep with the refining mantra - loosing it for a bit - bubbling up with a thought to a grosser level - going back to mantra - refining again, etc.
What caused my meditation to be unsatisfactory was that I wasn't able to go very deep. The mantra couldn't refine. So I figured something's wrong on the inward-going side of the process. Perhaps that I'm under-sensitive to practices... But the opposite seems to be true. As cosmic pointed out in the very firs reply, subtle overload could be the cause of my problem. And really, it seems to be very clear now. Since I was pouring so much energy into the system, there was an unnecessarily strong outward flux. So there was a lot of energy ready to push the released obstructions out, but not much obstructions were getting released, since the strong outward flux, causing inner turmoil and lots of physical activity, prevented, as a side effect, the mantra to sink deeper. It was like if I would trying to flush out every tiny bit of obstruction that got released with a huge stream of water, instead of allowing the mantra to sink deeper, release a proper portion of obstructions and then flushing it out with an appropriate amount of water. A distinct symptom of this were also persistent abdominal and facial kriyas, that steadily inconvenienced me for one year and a half.
So this is what happens, I think. Too much energy practice prevents meditation from deepening. It is not so obvious, because it is natural to figure that there is something wrong with meditation itself. Also the kriyas were a little tricky, because I tended to explain them as a stubborn blockage.
I know, I know.... It's been said a thousand times....  Tim, the Vedic meditation teacher said, he could describe my problem with 1 word: Effort.
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mimirom
Czech Republic
368 Posts |
Posted - Jan 17 2011 : 10:50:52 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Holy
Hi mimirom,
I know it is not easy to go on trusting if no results come out of it.
An analogy could help to understand your situation.
If you clean the dishes (=P) with your hands and something to rubb out the dried stuff, you will notice some things. Some parts dissolve very fast into the flowing water, some others don't and need some extra rubbing. Some very very thickened parts will even need very intense rubbing for many many seconds and perhaps even hotter water.
It is the same with meditation. The initial progress can be a wow, than a loonger period could be just as you describe. But know, that everything behaves according to the same rules. As above, so below. So continuity of the repetition of the mantra will rubb out whatever comes in the way for very shure over the longterm. Perhaps some time, other rubbing-materials are needed (like mudras and bandhas) or just more water (SPB), or even very hot water (YMK). But if you don't want to burn your fingers, sometimes a more relaxed approach and some more seconds/minutes will make the dish-cleaning more comfortable.
If, however you have never exprienced silence, peace and bliss and a rising witnessing state, you should practice another kind of meditation. Even if it just to see that such thing exists and is possible with you. But if such things happend with DM, even if once, you can really trust this and just go on with your daily practice.
Sometimes, a special kind of waterflow can massage and relax the fingers a bit, so that you don't have to feel uncomfortable during cleaning. It is called nadisodhana or alternate nostril breathing and could make the transition into silent bliss more easy. It helped me very very much too and over time I did both ANB and SBP with a 50:50 relation. Later it changed to 30:70 and now I am very happy that I could make the transition to SBP alone. Just as a consideration..
Don't worry, everything is solvable =)
Dear Holy,
thank you so much, this was very helpful. You are showing great empathy. |
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JosephUK
United Kingdom
212 Posts |
Posted - Jan 18 2011 : 11:52:13 AM
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Hello,
your experience is very similar to mine, having a small engine at full power all the time. But now i'm building a bigger engine and just cruising, far faster than before :)
I do notice my meditation during my daily activity as bliss and a natural unfoldment.
I use this as evidence of validating the practice i do. Initially I thought Wow this is ace lets do 100% more but now i'm practicing a combination of mindfulness and CBT on my practice to refine my behaviour and further shield myself from overdoing it and promoting safe travel.
Some times our thoughts sabotage us, with mindfulness we can watch the thoughts ( a form of the witness state cultivated with awareness and attitudes).
This is a quick approach to solving the validation issue, then we can progress further towards our long term goals such as the full witness state and pratyahara and so on.
Joe
p.s. keep up the good work may our bhakti keep us on the path :) |
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I never practiced Deep meditation
