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John C
USA
76 Posts |
 Posted - Dec 25 2010 : 10:37:56 PM
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Moderator Note: Topic split from here:
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....ID=8907#8907
This is for Kman:
I appreciate that Yogani's AYP system of practices may result in full enlightenment, but have always been somehow alienated by the concept of "out-pouring divine love" as a sugar coated new-ageism of some sort, in it's undefinable nebulousness. Could there be a less dualistic expression that would be more instructive to call that?
Swcondly, the Buddha sought enlightenment not for just himself, but for the sake of all sentient beings, yet AYP seems more a promise of personal redemption for the practitioner's own sake.
J |
Edited by - AYPforum on Dec 26 2010 5:53:55 PM |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Dec 26 2010 : 12:36:15 AM
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Hi John,
quote:
Originally posted by John C
This is for Kman:
I appreciate that Yogani's AYP system of practices may result in full enlightenment, but have always been somehow alienated by the concept of "out-pouring divine love" as a sugar coated new-ageism of some sort, in it's undefinable nebulousness. Could there be a less dualistic expression that would be more instructive to call that?
Any expression can be evaluated various ways by the mind. Outpouring divine love, like so many other enlightenment-related expressions, is actually quite accurate - just different in experience than the words may make it sound.
I never quite understood those words either, conceptually - though I can say I do experience it - or, at least, aspects of my current experience could be described using those words ("outpouring divine love").
Lately, I've been resonating with the term "wholeness".
In the experience of wholeness, the natural flow of both attitude and activity could be categorized as "outpouring of divine love", though I can't say I've ever thought of the ongoing experience in exactly those words.
In my experience, there's a very real, inherently positive sense of that which is uplifting or beneficial to all, being what feels completely natural.
Prior to knowing wholeness, nothing of the type ever felt solely natural -- now, it's so natural, it doesn't even register as something to consider, it just is, if that makes any sense.
And so, from the angle of my former conceptual mind - could "orientation to offer benefit as an inherent effect of knowing wholeness" also be called "outpouring divine love"? I suppose it could - and that wouldn't be inaccurate.
Real love isn't saccharin or new-agey; it's just real. It doesn't feel sentimental; it doesn't feel like anything - it just is - far more so than any of my former dreams of self could ever have been.
I hope that's useful; I'm happy to discuss it further if you like.
quote:
Swcondly, the Buddha sought enlightenment not for just himself, but for the sake of all sentient beings, yet AYP seems more a promise of personal redemption for the practitioner's own sake.
J
Regarding that apparent distinction (between AYP and Buddhism), I would say that what is really important is to awaken (rather than focusing on the reason for which awakening may be sought) - something with which many Buddhists, from the more tantric paths, at least (i.e. Dzogchen, Ch'an, Zen, Vajrayana, etc.) would agree.
Awakening is precisely and actually awakening from the dream of partiality - from the self-concept that one is actually the unwhole, faulty idea-of-self that one actually mistakes for oneself.
Once awakened, that artificial line of "own sake" vs. "all sentient beings" no longer applies, because it no longer exists.
I hope that's useful as well.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
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Edited by - Kirtanman on Dec 27 2010 8:35:33 PM |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Dec 26 2010 : 01:57:11 AM
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Hi John
quote:
Secondly, the Buddha sought enlightenment not for just himself, but for the sake of all sentient beings, yet AYP seems more a promise of personal redemption for the practitioner's own sake.
Yogani has often said that you cannot become fully enlightened until everyone in the world is enlightened. This is because in truth there is no difference between you and everyone else.
This is why one of the AYP practices is that of service to others. It is a beginners practice and an advanced practice. So it is not true that AYP is about enlightenment for one's own sake. How could it be?
Outpouring Divine love is a translation of the sanskrit "Dharma mega" or "virtue pouring cloud" from the Yoga suttras of Patanjali. So if you feel that "virtue pouring cloud" is a more instructive term than "outpouring divine love", go with it. It amounts to the same thing in the end.
Personally I like the Buddha's terms: Mudita (sympathetic joy), Upekkha (equanimity), Metta (love) and Karuna (compassion). These are the Brahmaviharas, or sublime attitudes of an enlightened being.
Christi
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Edited by - Christi on Dec 26 2010 02:07:21 AM |
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cosmic
USA
821 Posts |
Posted - Dec 26 2010 : 02:57:20 AM
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Hello John 
I know your questions were directed at Kirtanman, but I hope you don't mind my simplistic take on them.
quote:
Originally posted by John C
I appreciate that Yogani's AYP system of practices may result in full enlightenment, but have always been somehow alienated by the concept of "out-pouring divine love" as a sugar coated new-ageism of some sort, in it's undefinable nebulousness. Could there be a less dualistic expression that would be more instructive to call that?
How about "unconditional love for everyone and everything"? Or simply "love"? I get and appreciate why Yogani uses the term, but to me it just feels like a deep love for everyone in my life. And for all circumstances in my life. It's a constant love that's always running in the foreground, no matter what else is happening.
quote:
Originally posted by John C
Swcondly, the Buddha sought enlightenment not for just himself, but for the sake of all sentient beings, yet AYP seems more a promise of personal redemption for the practitioner's own sake.
I feel that love has to blossom before a genuine interest in others' enlightenment can occur. At least that's how it happened here. When I was super mind-identified, I had a bit of the savior complex that others have spoken about. I was just pretending to care about others' awakening, but wasn't really capable of actually caring.
Buddha was obviously "done" and speaking from a place of love and wisdom. Thus his compassion for all beings. My guess is that AYP doesn't focus on concern for OPE (other people's enlightenment) because it will arise naturally as a side effect of long-term devoted practice.
With Love
cosmic |
Edited by - cosmic on Dec 26 2010 03:00:18 AM |
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JDas
USA
74 Posts |
Posted - Dec 26 2010 : 9:58:07 PM
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Wow! Love everybody's take on this! Truly shows how unreliable and ineffective words/the mind are/is when trying to communicate the ineffable huh?
We all have our own unique understanding of this thing, right? We are in our little box--using words we use and understand only to ourselves, always unsure of the meaning they might have for others--and we seem to always forget that. We just assume that what we type/say are completely understandable to the other being, but noting could be further from the truth. Plus we don't seek to validate either. I don't get that.
Pretty interesting.
Tks!
Jon |
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manigma
India
1065 Posts |
Posted - Dec 28 2010 : 07:45:41 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by John C
Swcondly, the Buddha sought enlightenment not for just himself, but for the sake of all sentient beings, yet AYP seems more a promise of personal redemption for the practitioner's own sake.
J
Somehow reminded me of this:
Question: I have heard that all Buddhas in the past, present and future preached the same Dharma and countless beings were saved from suffering. Is this not true?
Bodhidharma: You have heard someone speak of dreams, and you yourself are actually dreaming. Whatever you figure with your dualistic mind never makes a true account of mind essence, therefore, I call you a dreamer. Dream is one thing and realization another. Do not mix them together. Wisdom in the dream is not the real wisdom. One who has true wisdom does not hold self-recognition. Buddhas in the past, present and future are in the realm beyond cognition. If you shut off your thinking faculty, blocking off the road of your mind, you will enter a different sphere. Until that time, whatever you think, whatever you say, whatever you do is nothing but foolishness in dreamland.
http://www.balbro.com/lotus/lion5.htm
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Dec 29 2010 : 6:19:28 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by manigma
quote:
Originally posted by John C
Swcondly, the Buddha sought enlightenment not for just himself, but for the sake of all sentient beings, yet AYP seems more a promise of personal redemption for the practitioner's own sake.
J
Somehow reminded me of this:
Question: I have heard that all Buddhas in the past, present and future preached the same Dharma and countless beings were saved from suffering. Is this not true?
Bodhidharma: You have heard someone speak of dreams, and you yourself are actually dreaming. Whatever you figure with your dualistic mind never makes a true account of mind essence, therefore, I call you a dreamer. Dream is one thing and realization another. Do not mix them together. Wisdom in the dream is not the real wisdom. One who has true wisdom does not hold self-recognition. Buddhas in the past, present and future are in the realm beyond cognition. If you shut off your thinking faculty, blocking off the road of your mind, you will enter a different sphere. Until that time, whatever you think, whatever you say, whatever you do is nothing but foolishness in dreamland.
http://www.balbro.com/lotus/lion5.htm
Beautiful -- and so utterly true.
Thanks very much for this!!
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
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bewell
1275 Posts |
Posted - Dec 29 2010 : 9:55:11 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by John C
...always been somehow alienated by the concept of "out-pouring divine love" as a sugar coated new-ageism of some sort, in it's undefinable nebulousness. Could there be a less dualistic expression that would be more instructive to call that?
Is there a less "dualistic" way of expressing the concept of "outpouring of divine love?"
Tonight I read Yognai's Lesson 391 – "Changes in Bhakti from Dual to Non-Dual." Yogani touches on the question at hand here:
"Paradoxically, the outpouring of divine love, the most personal experience we can have, is entirely impersonal. It is its own movement and its own fulfillment. There is no need for anything in return. It just flows, and we flow with it in stillness. It is 'Stillness in action.'"
http://www.aypsite.org/391.html |
Edited by - bewell on Dec 29 2010 10:00:27 PM |
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tonightsthenight
846 Posts |
Posted - Dec 30 2010 : 12:35:07 PM
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outpouring divine love is just our most primal (spiritually not animally!  ) urge.... it's just a core state of being, and it wants to express itself! it's just dancing in bliss it needs to be experienced not talked about though  |
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kevincann
USA
335 Posts |
Posted - May 17 2011 : 7:04:48 PM
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One day a door opens itself.
You find 1000 trillion dollars in your bank account. You have no need for money.
Everyone is your friend and could use a good party. |
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davidg
United Kingdom
36 Posts |
Posted - May 17 2011 : 11:34:06 PM
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we dont need to wait for others to be fully enligtened, to be expressing it ourselves on an indidual basis, we/they are alleady an enlightend spieces each and every one of us, there is no becoming or waiting for something we already are, just the stripping away the veils of ignorance to reveal the light within,
to most 'ignorance is bliss' the opposing force to enlightenment, where they bury there head in the sand to hide from there own out-pouring divine love, others would have it be expressed
in saying this each and every person in this plain of existance is our teacher. they reflect what we see within ourselves,
to see them as divine entities is to see your own divinity within....
as within so without and visa-versa,
to be human is to error, it is inevitable that we will see these errors in others, that is ok, they are reminders of what was once an error we had to deal with, mankind has this infalible ability to forget, this reason why we manifest in this world......
to remember who we are
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WoodDragon
USA
56 Posts |
Posted - May 18 2011 : 08:52:43 AM
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Love is Love. Love is infinite in capacity and endurance.
Love has no boundaries, no constraints save for those we impose on it ourselves.
The outpouring of Love is an embracing of the Truth that all are One and that Love comes from within us. When we open that door with no holding back we find a flood of Love shines forth from within ourselves and is directed everywhere. Love for all and Love for yourself.
Buddha is as Love is. Within us all waiting to be embraced and released from our bounds. When we unconditionally Love ourselves and others we serve all, when we embrace Buddha within we serve all others as well.
Peace, Bliss and Joy to you! |
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What is "outpouring of divine love?"
