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alwayson2
USA
546 Posts |
 Posted - Dec 19 2010 : 12:08:51 AM
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Make a sharp distinction between awareness and mind (thoughts).
By the way, awareness is just ordinary awareness coming out of your eyeballs and is looking at the computer screen right now.
Now you are a nonduality master just like Adyashanti or whomever.
Forget about self-inquiry as it is not even close to the highest teaching (I explained this before). |
Edited by - alwayson2 on Dec 20 2010 4:39:15 PM |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4429 Posts |
Posted - Dec 19 2010 : 12:50:52 AM
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Alwayson Wrote:
"Make a sharp distinction between awareness and mind (thoughts)
Now you are a nonduality master.
Forget about self-inquiry as it is not even close to the highest teaching (I explained this before)."
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Hi Alwayson,
The point of self-inquiry practice is to bring the practitioner to the place where they are able to make the distinction between awareness and mind (not always obvious in the beginning). Self-inquiry practice is also the process of making this distinction. At first, effort is needed, and, only later, it becomes effortless.
Once it becomes effortless, then you can let it go.
One of the biggest mistakes that saints often make is that they forget how they got there, and then are unable to help others. They offer only the latest thing that they discovered on their path, which is rarely useful for anyone else. We have seen this happening again and again in this forum, and it has resulted in a great deal of confusion.
Remember, offer what others need, not just what you know.
All the best,
Christi
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Edited by - Christi on Dec 19 2010 02:56:33 AM |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Dec 19 2010 : 05:22:55 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Christi
Remember, offer what others need, not just what you know.
Wow, that's beautiful. Is that your own quote because it feels very profound ? |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Dec 19 2010 : 11:35:19 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by alwayson2
By the way, awareness is just ordinary awareness coming out of your eyeballs and is looking at the computer screen right now.
Awareness doesn't come out of, or go into, anything. Awareness is the field in which all is happening.
quote:
Now you are a nonduality master just like Adyashanti or whomever.
Why would you say that?
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
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Edited by - Kirtanman on Dec 19 2010 11:39:24 PM |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4429 Posts |
Posted - Dec 20 2010 : 12:35:33 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by karl
quote:
Originally posted by Christi
Remember, offer what others need, not just what you know.
Wow, that's beautiful. Is that your own quote because it feels very profound ?
Hi Karl,
No, my teacher taught it to me, I'm just passing it on. I still have trouble practicing it myself. It is really the highest art in teaching. |
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slenten
23 Posts |
Posted - Dec 20 2010 : 11:05:23 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by alwayson2
Make a sharp distinction between awareness and mind (thoughts).
By the way, awareness is just ordinary awareness coming out of your eyeballs and is looking at the computer screen right now.
Now you are a nonduality master just like Adyashanti or whomever.
Forget about self-inquiry as it is not even close to the highest teaching (I explained this before)."
Very provocative comments, alwayson2.
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alwayson2
USA
546 Posts |
Posted - Dec 20 2010 : 4:43:40 PM
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| The reason why I am not a fan of self-inquiry is because buddhism has the exact same Ramana style self-inquiry, but it is only used to gain some real preliminary insight, and it is definitely not going to lead you to rigpa. |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Dec 20 2010 : 6:23:30 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by alwayson2
The reason why I am not a fan of self-inquiry is because buddhism has the exact same Ramana style self-inquiry, but it is only used to gain some real preliminary insight, and it is definitely not going to lead you to rigpa.
Are you sure about this?
What is the difference between Ramana's realization, and rigpa, in your opinion?
Also, I've been meaning to ask you this for a while:
Your interest in the highest awareness, or clarity, if you prefer, beyond mind, as taught by Dzogchen .... and your interest in Robert Bruce and psychic powers, etc. .... seems like an unusual combination.
Dzogchen, as you rightly point out, is designed to take us beyond limitations of mind and form.
Robert Bruce's work, no disrespect intended, seems well-structured to keep someone in the limitations of mind and form, by focusing on them.
Do you find a compatibility between the two approaches?
If so, what?
Just curious; thanks.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
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alwayson2
USA
546 Posts |
Posted - Dec 20 2010 : 7:07:12 PM
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Its not an unusual combination at all. Dzogchen just like all the rest of Vajrayana was founded by the Mahasiddhas. You omit the most crucial elements of Dzogchen which uses the body's channels to obtain rainbow body.
Like Dzogchen master Dalai Lama says, the degree of enlightenment is directly based on the configuration of channels in the body. So get working on the body.
Realizing nature of mind is just step one |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Dec 20 2010 : 9:06:25 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by alwayson2
Its not an unusual combination at all. Dzogchen just like all the rest of Vajrayana was founded by the Mahasiddhas. You omit the most crucial elements of Dzogchen which uses the body's channels to obtain rainbow body.
Okay; I didn't realize you see Bruce's work as directly compatible with, and pertinent to, Dzogchen's approach.
quote:
Like Dzogchen master Dalai Lama says, the degree of enlightenment is directly based on the configuration of channels in the body.
Sure; Yoga, Kashmir Shaivism and other paths teach this, too.
This has been my experience, too. It's one thing to realize that reality is non-dual (whole), and that wholeness is our true nature.
It's quite another to permanently experience the freedom that is the primary quality of this realization, without the specific adjustments in the body's neurobiology and mind's psychology, which allow for such experience.
Hence AYP's emphasis on the practices which produce this liberated reality in experience.
Hence the ongoing gratitude of those of us who have realized this reality for ourselves.
quote:
So get working on the body.
Did. With AYP.
quote:
Realizing nature of mind is just step one
Realizing nature of mind is just step one - toward liberation.
I agree that aspects of consciousness on all planes are pertinent to liberation, including those at the physical and mental levels, as well as beyond.
What I don't see, is how a combination of Robert Bruce's teachings and Dzogchen are superior to AYP.
AYP has been proven to work, all the way, for at least a few of us.
Dzogchen has been proven to work for a few.
So has AYP.
Robert Bruce's system, as far as I know, hasn't produced liberation in anyone. Has it?
You have direct access to at least several people here, who have utilized AYP to become liberated (some who say so, some who don't).
Why are you so committed to talking about the generalities of Dzogchen and the particulars of Robert Bruce's astral-plane focused teachings?
Why not just practice AYP?
If you're not interested in AYP, why are you posting here?
Again, just truly curious.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
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alwayson2
USA
546 Posts |
Posted - Dec 20 2010 : 9:35:31 PM
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Regarding AYP I like the kechari mudra stuff. Even Robert Bruce practices kechari mudra.
And why I don't ever talk about specifics of Dzogchen? Because you are supposed to go to a qualified teacher.
Robert's system is an open system. He never put any restrictions on discussings it. |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Dec 20 2010 : 10:21:32 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by alwayson2
Regarding AYP I like the kechari mudra stuff. Even Robert Bruce practices kechari mudra.
And why I don't ever talk about specifics of Dzogchen? Because you are supposed to go to a qualified teacher.
Robert's system is an open system. He never put any restrictions on discussings it.
That's cool.
I was asking more from the angle of:
Why do you only promote non-AYP info so strongly, in an AYP forum?
For instance, I've posted a lot of stuff from other systems over the years, but have never tried to make them seem superior to AYP (mostly because in my experience, techniques are either effective, or not -- and AYP's are effective.)
It's one thing to offer information -- but another to keep repeatedly citing and defending its superiority, when not a lot of people in the given environment (this forum, in this case) are interested in looking at it, in that way.
Simply put -- you could probably offer the same information, in a way that's a lot better received (than it has been, the several times you've promoted it so far), if you don't tout its questionable superiority so strongly.
The proof of any system or set of techniques comes from using them -- and if people are interested, they'll look into Robert Bruce, and/or Dzogchen; if they've got useful teachings and techniques - I'm sure someone will report back.
Even in your own case ... maybe tell us exactly what the benefits have been for you, as opposed to why you think we're doing it wrong.
Some of us well know AYP works, so it's kind of pointless to push alternate systems as superior.
That doesn't mean we're not interested in good and useful information from other sources -- that's always welcome.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
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Edited by - Kirtanman on Dec 20 2010 10:22:43 PM |
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alwayson2
USA
546 Posts |
Posted - Dec 20 2010 : 10:48:23 PM
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I know this is an AYP forum, thats why the vast majority of my posts are in the "Other Systems" forum if you have noticed.
I think you are mainly referencing the kundalini thread. I think AYP is a fine system. But I don't believe that kundalini is simply energy movement. Thats just my opinion. I believe kundalini is something more major.
Personal question, don't you get tired of everyone and their pet dog claim they have raised kundalini? |
Edited by - alwayson2 on Dec 20 2010 10:56:02 PM |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Dec 20 2010 : 11:00:19 PM
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Hi Alwayson
quote:
Originally posted by alwayson2
But I don't believe that kundalini is simply energy movement. Thats just my opinion. I believe kundalini is something more major.
Beliefs are fickle and always subject to change with the introduction of new information. The best way to know the truth about anything is to find it for yourself. You can believe anything you want about kundalini but that won't change the REALITY of kundalini. And the only way you can know the reality of kundalini is to awaken it within yourself. AYPractices are an effective set of tools for doing so as many around here know from personal experience.
All the best.
Love!
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alwayson2
USA
546 Posts |
Posted - Dec 20 2010 : 11:05:33 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
Hi Alwayson
quote:
Originally posted by alwayson2
But I don't believe that kundalini is simply energy movement. Thats just my opinion. I believe kundalini is something more major.
Beliefs are fickle and always subject to change with the introduction of new information. The best way to know the truth about anything is to find it for yourself. You can believe anything you want about kundalini but that won't change the REALITY of kundalini. And the only way you can know the reality of kundalini is to awaken it within yourself. AYPractices are an effective set of tools for doing so as many around here know from personal experience.
All the best.
Love!
Right, but do you notice I really don't talk about my personal experiences?
This is because I don't want to sound egotistical. But based on what I have experienced I strongly believe that kundalini is something more. And I am inclined to believe the Robert Bruce concept. If I really talked about my personal experience, I would be accused of promoting something, which already Kirtanman accused me of.
I am abrasive though, I admit that. |
Edited by - alwayson2 on Dec 20 2010 11:15:46 PM |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Dec 21 2010 : 9:00:04 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by alwayson2
[quote][i]
[quote]I would be accused of promoting something, which already Kirtanman accused me of.
Hi Alwayson,
I don't see it like that -- that's why I asked about your experiences.
It's not an egotism thing, in my experience and opinion, anyway. If someone has experience with something, at least to me, it seems a lot more real and credible, than if that person is just operating from a set of ideas.
I've been a bit more direct with you in the last couple of days, and there's a reason for that:
Every so often, you circle back here, and promote (not in a negative sense - in a sense that you're saying "here's a powerful system") Robert Bruce, Dzogchen, and every so often, something else (i.e. Abramelin Operation) ... while outright saying that these things are superior than other systems, or that they hold "the key" to (I presume) awakening or whatever - while making incorrect negative statements about other teachers and paths.
Other than the basic information from the other systems -- I don't have much interest in the rest of your approach (which is summed up nicely by the "abrasive" level you applied to yourself).
And so, I'm trying to figure out if you're sincere about dialog, and your own awakening --- or, if you are here just to tell us you've found the best stuff, and to argue that you're right and we're wrong.
If it's the former, cool; I can handle "abrasive" just fine, as you may have noticed by now.
If it's the latter -- I'm simply not interested, and I doubt seriously many others here are, either.
I didn't mean "promoting" as an insult - solely as a description (what would you call the way you present information?)
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Dec 21 2010 : 9:05:30 PM
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Hi Alwayson,
quote:
Originally posted by alwayson2
I know this is an AYP forum, thats why the vast majority of my posts are in the "Other Systems" forum if you have noticed.
I've noticed - and that's fine. I was referring more from the standpoint that you don't seem to be all that interested in AYP, overall.
Other Systems stuff is fine; I've posted a lot of it myself over the years, as I've mentioned.
quote:
I think you are mainly referencing the kundalini thread. I think AYP is a fine system. But I don't believe that kundalini is simply energy movement. Thats just my opinion. I believe kundalini is something more major.
I agree - kundalini is far more major than energy movement alone.
quote:
Personal question, don't you get tired of everyone and their pet dog claim they have raised kundalini?
Nope - mostly because I simply haven't noticed. I've used the word "kundalini" more in the last couple of days, in these posts than I've used it in probably the last year.
And I don't really get tired of other people's views, mostly because they are what they are ... there's really not anything I can do about them, unless someone wants to have a sincere conversation, which I'm always happy to do.
And I do agree there's a vast amount of misunderstanding about kundalini out there.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
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Edited by - Kirtanman on Dec 21 2010 9:06:23 PM |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Dec 21 2010 : 9:12:37 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by alwayson2
Make a sharp distinction between awareness and mind (thoughts).
By the way, awareness is just ordinary awareness coming out of your eyeballs and is looking at the computer screen right now.
Now you are a nonduality master just like Adyashanti or whomever.
Forget about self-inquiry as it is not even close to the highest teaching (I explained this before).
Hi Alwayson,
This post is a good example of what I'm talking about.
Your first sentence, I agree with.
Your second sentence, not exactly, due to your phrasing - but I get what you're trying to say (there's no "special awareness" --- awareness is just awareness), and I agree with that.
Your third sentence is inaccurate for one, and dismissive of a guy I consider to be a good teacher, overall -- what's the point of that sentence, other than to be, as you said in another post, "abrasive"?
Your last sentence is dismissive of AYP, and misleading (while self-inquiry may not be the highest teaching, it's very important for most practitioners at a certain stage; not everyone is capable of going straight to the highest teachings - something that almost all spiritual traditions agree upon).
And so - if you'd stuck to your first two sentences above, you'd likely have a lot more people interested in what you're saying.
And - if you have a reason for those last two sentences -- I'd be interested to know what it is.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
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Make Sharp Distinction Between Awareness and Mind
