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Shivoham
India
107 Posts |
 Posted - Dec 10 2010 : 11:52:57 AM
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Saagaram, My opinion is that as long as you can stay in that state do not listen to anyone. They are all under illusion more than you now.One day it may happen that you come under the delusion gain. Then you will go and read that again to bring back that state. That is called practice.And if it does not happen like before, your deluded mind will take up practices just to realize later that all spiritual practices you were doing was due to illusion.
To other people,
Why you want him to practice something when he is already happy?
Zen is the peculiarly Sino-Japanese way of accomplishing the Buddhist goal of seeing the world just as it is, that is, with a mind that has no grasping thoughts or feelings (Sanskrit, trishna). This attitude is called “no-mind” (Chinese, wuxin), a state of consciousness wherein thoughts move without leaving any trace. Unlike other forms of Buddhism, Zen holds that such freedom of mind cannot be attained by gradual practice but must come through direct and immediate insight (Chinese, dunwu; Japanese, satori). Thus, Zen abandons both theorizing and systems of spiritual exercise and communicates its vision of truth by a method known as direct pointing. Its exponents answer all philosophic or religious questions by nonsymbolic words or actions; the answer is the action just as it is, and not what it represents. Typical is the reply of the Zen master Yaoshan, who, on being asked “What is the Way [of Zen]?” answered, “A cloud in the sky and water in the jug!” Zen students prepare themselves to be receptive to such answers by sitting in meditation (Japanese, za-zen) while they simply observe, without mental comment, whatever may be happening.
Microsoft® Encarta® Encyclopedia. © 1993-2001 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.
I also went to that state when I read this and stayed for sometime.But I lost it again. I know it was better that thinking about practices. It was freedom. Nerves and chakras will be automatically cleansed if we can stay in this state. So dont worry about them
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Dec 10 2010 : 4:49:05 PM
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Agreed. Our "inner guru" guides us each to our own best path.
But, I do have to admit, that the "child" in me enjoys this debate.
Have a good weekend! |
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Saagaram
USA
87 Posts |
Posted - Dec 10 2010 : 7:25:57 PM
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I've been demonstrating something, a yoga of conceptual thought, probably something you've never heard of before. Just as in tantra where the poison of attachment to pleasure is purged with the poison of pleasure itself, the poison of attachment to conceptual thought may be purged with conceptual thought itself.
As in tantra, the problem is not the pleasure it is the clinging. The problem of conceptual thought is with holding these thoughts to be true, imputing a reality to them.
This practice is characterized by play of thoughts, paradigms and systems of thought. An Alice in Wonderland yoga. It's like the old days when we used to say, "my friend and I," and it was incorrect to say, "my friend and me." But these days it is reversed. Yet, in any event, we always know what the speaker means, because the nature of the mind transcends what might be considered right and wrong, etc.
The mind itself has no fixed positions of correct and incorrect, and makes sense of what might be considered nonsense. The practice is to cut the mind loose of conventions and let one's body, speech and mind be free, engaging them in contradictions, paradoxes, dilemmas, nonsense, mixing languages up, being different personaes at once, whatever the creative nature burbs up. By accelerating change and loss of conventional mind, the innate mind shines forth bright as if the Buddha was in front of your face, and the 24/7 samadhi of illusoriness of all things, including your own mind will manifest effortlessly. The dream-like samadhi is the bullet train to enlightenment in one life. It happens when the objects of senses, the senses and mind itself seems to be made of insubstantial stuff like a dream and there are no preconceptions about what may arise. Other than that it defies description except being neither self nor other.
One will have allowed oneself to be an oddball with glee, confounding people you meet. Doing so you will earn their disdain sometimes, at other times vehement praise. You will first hand recognize the nothingness of praise and blame. You can live out an entire life in a few months if you like. Be dangerous, be harmless, be a mute, be a rockstar, an intellectual, a yogi, a guru, a failure. Always alert to recognize the truth of impermanence, unsatisfactoriness and no independent existence of all the six realms of existence. Whatever circles of friends you get into or whatever world you enter, observe how these are always consistent with the six realms. Thus one sees every form is the deity, every sound is the mantra and every thought is the guru, all inseparable from your own innate nature which is the buddha.
Of course, this can be done while having all the sex you can get, because everyone wants to screw a screwball. One can drink, ingest drugs and do anything else without limitation. Be careful not to kill yourself in a state of stupor, anger or one of the emotional states, because that would mean rebirth in a woeful state. If you act out in hatred, accept the consequence with joy as your teacher. Be very careful if engaging in nonvirtuous conduct. The good news is that one who is sincere in their yearning for truth will have the protection of entities who do that. If you get addicted, then throw yourself full on into an antiaddiction thing and kick the habit, knowing the innate has never been addicted, or just quit cold-turkey.
Restraining the ejaculate helps to build heat, and when that happens, naturally your destructive impulses will leave and you will have a steady flow of virtuous conduct and results, especially if your retention begins on the new moon, because you are in tune with the natural cycle of flow. There's no need to activate kundalini with breath retention here, the interdependent circumstances of this practice are sufficient. The yoni chakra four fingers below the navel is tickled constantly by the vision of oneness of void and manifestations of thoughts and objects, and discerning the dreamlike nature of the mind tickles the crown. A simple boon is to visualize a tiny blazing hot sun in the yoni chakra, and a tiny cool moon just below the brahma aperture or in the ajna as you like or just the sun. It's not an active visualization. You flash it and let it wave in the mind like a moon in water. It's like that song stuck in your head. You are not practicing the lyrics, they are just playing in your mind. This is like that, and you just breath naturally. If you want to practice mantra, practice mantra knowing the origin of all sound is Ah and thereby be chanting a 24/7 effortless Ah. If you meet a teacher from a pure teaching or a pure lineage go in, but not all the way in, believe all the way, but not without your vision of the innate. In this way kundali will take care of herself.
As one's understanding of the nature of mind deepens, one recognizes that the mind is an inseparable unity/duality of voidness and infinite manifestations which has the taste of erotic bliss. A vision of Indra's Pearls is a sign the heart chakra has ripened with the descent of wisdom from the crown, as is the experience that everything is just a dream or a reflection in a nonexistent mirror. At that time, compassion showers out from you in all directions and all manner of sentient beings will gather around you, and your siddhis arise from their longing. One can then settle into the completely simple practice of not embracing or rejecting anything, and "doing nothing" like a retired old man has the support of direct experience of the innate imperishable samadhi of passionless joy. Obviously, because this is without limitation you can take AYP and any other tantra to fruition and you will be true to this practice if you consciously contradict it at some point or at least never hold it to be true or false. If you piss off powerful entities, never lose your vision of the innate.
The teachings of "doing nothing," is aided by an explanation of the two eyes, the gyan eye and the pragyan eye. It's called "The Two Eyes that See Everything":
quote:
Gyan Eye: Clarity-imperceptibility, the bliss of the six doors.
Pragyan Eye: Nonarising spontaneity, the bliss of a yogi.
Vidya: Seeing empty mirage-like spontaneity, bliss of a Buddha.
Within the avadhuti is a more subtle indestructible channel known as the golden crystal tube. It connects to all the doors and chakras and cannot be improved upon by practice or occluded by not. Relaxing without focus, attraction or repulsion in the sudden now opens the Gyan Eye of clear, open, caring and blissful awareness. The refraction of light against the retina magnifies the gnosis of illusion-like clarity, total darkness has this same effect. Sights will be like mirages, sounds like echoes, smells like memories, tastes will all be sameness, and sensations will be like on someone else. This is like the eye now sees its lens.
Within the golden crystal tube is the crystal mirror heart bindu and the potential of all possible appearances manifesting spontaneously within Indra’s Net. Continuously discerning the non-arising of appearances in the natural field of conditional relativity with the Pragyan Eye releases one from the lattice-like chains of bindus utterly, and one completely disconnects from all possible existences, unmasking the liberated dimensions. This is like the eye now sees sight itself.
These two eyes, Gyan Eye and Pragyan Eye, see the nature of reality. Together these eyes see that the nature of awareness and all possible phenomena are mirage-like, thus the clarity of appearance is unborn vidya. Without action, one merely rests in that direct perception of awareness itself, and without analyzing, everything has this same naturally liberated dimension. This knowledge is bliss itself, the bliss of discerning for oneself how all the dharmas of Indra’s Net, those which bind the practitioner's crystal mirror heart bindu to the net of rebirth, are exhausted.
Beyond this is the practice of the naturally liberated ones. Seeing wisdom of liberation, and seeing confused suffering beings, great compassion develops a mind to awaken every last being. The skillful means to attain this is the very mind that clearly recognizes awareness itself in the mirage-like Samadhi. In the non-dual Samadhi of suchness, the Buddha enters into the mindstreams and phenomena of all living beings to become the cause of their awakening. Thus, by reinserting oneself into Indra's Net, one does not abandon the non-abiding liberation of all worlds, the vows or beings, and does not cling to a one-sided nirvana.
This entire process can take anywhere from two to twenty years. Most will reach the fruition within four to six years. This practice has the benefit of being beyond limitations and making you into a real yogi and not some spiritual sycophant or emotional mush. And this teaching should be kept close to the heart, with the injunction that its logic follows the same pattern as "this statement is a lie," where the truth or deception of the statement is indeterminate. If I say nothing is inherently true except this inherently true statement, then I would be lying. But if I say it is not inherently true that I am lying, then I am telling the truth. Yogic practice especially is like this, and one should not engage in a teaching unless this is understood. So engage the web of lies honestly and honestly lie, sleep with other spouses, and kill your enemies. If you need to understand these allegories refer to the Hevajra, because these are not what they appear, they refer to nonconceptuality. |
Edited by - Saagaram on Dec 11 2010 10:59:28 AM |
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Saagaram
USA
87 Posts |
Posted - Dec 10 2010 : 7:27:40 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
I am wondering - if one just stays in this state where nothing is grasped or rejected and there's nothing to meditate, would the mind be quiet and peaceful?
Excellent question to the heart of the issue. Not necessarily; or not necessarily loud either. It is free of these, because it is naturally nirvana. |
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Saagaram
USA
87 Posts |
Posted - Dec 10 2010 : 7:37:22 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
Hi Saagaram 
quote:
Originally posted by Saagaram
quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
Hi Saagaram
quote:
Originally posted by Saagaram
Hey, JDH have you noticed that you are sort of irritated?
Have you noticed you own irritation? I'd say it is quite evident in-between all the dripping sarcasm. I honestly don't care, it doesn't cause any suffering here, but I think it may be a good idea to tone down the "clothed jabs" a little. Just for the sake of civility. Thanks.
Love!
Relax, I'm just horsing around. I love you too. I want to hug you and kiss you.
Don't worry, I am quite relaxed. I was just reminding you (or perhaps making you aware of in the case that you weren't already aware) that there is a forum policy against being rude/unkind to other members which results in having your posts returned and not posted. The post to JDH was right on that line of not being acceptable here, so, I was just making sure that you are aware of the forum policies. We don't allow posts that could be seen as offensive to others. So, I was just asking you politely to please keep things civil and relaxed. We are happy to have you here, we are happy that you are instigating a discussion of this nature, but we don't tolerate antagonizing other forumites. Just keep it in mind. Thanks and hopefully we will continue to hear more from you.
Love!
Yes sir |
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Saagaram
USA
87 Posts |
Posted - Dec 11 2010 : 01:32:28 AM
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Okay I poked around your system, and I have something that I think can help you folks a lot. You have a good bliss practice. Simple and clean.
What I can add comes from the old tantra tradition of Hevajra. Not too many people have this knowledge so here it is. It is a nonduality tantra and there is something really simple that will tie in your tantric sex practices with your mantra practice and is more direct than your self-inquiry practice (which is based on Ramana's "I" focus, not the best of the best sorry).
It's called the Four Moments. This is the best of the best. So you are in sexual embrace, or your mantra mudra practice or your pranayama practice is tickling the hell out of your kunda. You are feeling super orgasmic or blissful in absorption... This is the first moment, the moment of contact.
The second moment is where in your heart (not your heart chakra, but deeply) you long for direct experience of the Self, and hand the bliss feeling over to it. Examine the feeling is like space, has no color or shape and arises as in dependence on method.
Third moment is when your bliss feeling melts into nothingness and thus melts into a passionlessness, which is the Self.
The fourth moment is within the third moment, the experience of the innate. Without conceptualizing anything just be in that indescribable innate state which is beyond Self, not-self or any idea or experience.
This would tie in all the parts of AYP and fit the relational self-inquiry standard and the four levels of inquiry you have listed. But it also gives your tantric sex practice a spiritual element beyond feeling. It is a skill in means that can be used all the time with all the senses.
Also helps to generate kunda if, during your visualization of the spinal tube, you also visualize your body is like a hollow balloon or insubstantial like a rainbow. |
Edited by - Saagaram on Dec 11 2010 11:02:17 AM |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Dec 11 2010 : 05:17:48 AM
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I have to say Saagaram that what you say is beyond me. Seeming to have all the complexity that made most forms of spiritual seeking unobtainable to me because they were unexplainable without access to someone who could act as a guide. I find that it seems too advanced.
AYP may not be as effective as that which you offer, but it is simple and produces results. Some exercise is better than no exercise. AYP is get up, brush teeth and get on with the rest of the day. |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Dec 11 2010 : 08:32:33 AM
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| What happened to "no practice is necessary"? Change your mind? |
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Saagaram
USA
87 Posts |
Posted - Dec 11 2010 : 11:09:01 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by karl
I have to say Saagaram that what you say is beyond me. Seeming to have all the complexity that made most forms of spiritual seeking unobtainable to me because they were unexplainable without access to someone who could act as a guide. I find that it seems too advanced.
AYP may not be as effective as that which you offer, but it is simple and produces results. Some exercise is better than no exercise. AYP is get up, brush teeth and get on with the rest of the day.
Mull it over, come back to it. You understand the Buddha's words in the Parayanavagga right? That stuff is easy, but definitely not get up brush teeth and get on with the rest of the day. This is free your mind. |
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Saagaram
USA
87 Posts |
Posted - Dec 11 2010 : 11:25:11 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
What happened to "no practice is necessary"? Change your mind?
Freed my mind. It's all very consistent. This is how to bring a sadhu like existence into modern life. Crazy yogi divinity with Buddha's cool simplicity at its core.
I have to say, I am a fan of AYP's visualization and prana, nadi, bindu, mudra and bandha system. Although it isn't easy to realize the truth of nonorigination without the use of a practice during sexual embrace at least or by making use of a Heruka-Yogini visualization. Like I said before, it helps to visualize the hollow tube and visualize the whole body is hollow or like a rainbow.
Come back to what I said about the four moments. This is not complicated and easier than Ramana's system. It is not a practice so much as realization and it flows naturally from bliss you are already working to generate. Rather than switch systems, and go from tantra bliss to advaita, which to me would be like the train switching tracks and going kabump.
Of course, what I'm talking here is to be consistent with what you are doing. If you want to be consistent with what I'm doing re-read this post and the list from the Parayanavagga. Mull over what is said about the two eyes, these are the pinnacle of profundity in all of spiritual existence. There's no shame in being puzzled by them. These are one of the lighthouses on the path, just when you wonder where you are going, you can look at that and realize something more and more every time. |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Dec 11 2010 : 11:38:34 AM
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| Yes I agree about being consistent. Some people think yoga is some kind of intellectual pursuit and read everything they can find, and don't practice anything consistently. Then think they know "all about" yoga. That's like thinking "no path" is a good path. . .lol. |
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Saagaram
USA
87 Posts |
Posted - Dec 11 2010 : 11:45:07 AM
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oh I almost forgot. The nada-chair.
http://www.nadachair.com/
Highly recommended for people with back pain or problem with circulation in sitting positions. I'm not with this company, but I bought a couple of them. They sell it on Amazon.
For me, I like maharishi position, where my knees are up against my chest and my arms are placed on my knees. I find it is the best for all purposes, practice or doing nothing. This position is recommended for kundalini generating, and you can still place your inside heal against your perineum. It gives the anus a little bit of a stretch so when bliss happens the asvini is automatic and more pleasure.
It is like a more advanced meditation belt, but it has special back support pad, pads for knees and mountain climber clips that can clip your knees together. It is fantastic. Funny you don't see any meditators in their ads. It was made for mundane purposes. |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Dec 11 2010 : 1:34:16 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Saagaram
You understand the Buddha's words in the Parayanavagga right?
Not really. Seems like the sort of conversation we used to have after smoking a few joints. I really don't understand most of the words in all of the books I have read.
I've read so many books and so many words that they all run into one big bog.
Your posts inspired me to review one of the Osho video clips. In one clip he says he has found 112 ways to meditate. When asked which is the best way, he replies that anyway that feels like it's right is the right way.
I find it difficult to understand how you can say 'free your mind'. I don't think I can free anything because there is nothing to free it from.
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Saagaram
USA
87 Posts |
Posted - Dec 11 2010 : 2:48:02 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by karl
quote:
Originally posted by Saagaram
You understand the Buddha's words in the Parayanavagga right?
Not really. Seems like the sort of conversation we used to have after smoking a few joints. I really don't understand most of the words in all of the books I have read.
I've read so many books and so many words that they all run into one big bog.
Your posts inspired me to review one of the Osho video clips. In one clip he says he has found 112 ways to meditate. When asked which is the best way, he replies that anyway that feels like it's right is the right way.
I find it difficult to understand how you can say 'free your mind'. I don't think I can free anything because there is nothing to free it from.
Maybe your understanding is better than you let on. Bondage is thinking this and that is true and real and holding on to it, freed is nothing to free it from. |
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Saagaram
USA
87 Posts |
Posted - Dec 11 2010 : 2:49:40 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by karl
Your posts inspired me to review one of the Osho video clips. In one clip he says he has found 112 ways to meditate. When asked which is the best way, he replies that anyway that feels like it's right is the right way.
This book is called Osho's "Book of Secrets," it is his commentary on the Vijnanabhairava Tantra. |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Dec 11 2010 : 3:05:34 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Saagaram
oh I almost forgot. The nada chair.
If you are meditating with your knees down, a zafu meditation cushion will keep your back from slouching(search ebay for "zafu"). it's a buckwheat filled small hard cushion. Your knees hang off of it, so they are lower than your butt. This straightens out lower back slouch that causes back pain. |
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alwayson2
USA
546 Posts |
Posted - Dec 11 2010 : 4:33:52 PM
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| All you guys in this thread are hinting at Dzogchen, which is the same enlightenment Shakyamuni Buddha experienced. |
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cosmic
USA
821 Posts |
Posted - Dec 11 2010 : 5:03:56 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Saagaram
This book is called Osho's "Book of Secrets," it is his commentary on the Vijnanabhairava Tantra.
That is a fantastic book. |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Dec 11 2010 : 6:47:15 PM
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Hi cosmic
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Saagaram
This book is called Osho's "Book of Secrets," it is his commentary on the Vijnanabhairava Tantra.
That is a fantastic book.
It is isn't it
Back in the summer of 2004.....I lived alone for a week in what used to be my cabin up in the Norwegian mountains. I meditated.....hiked around the wilderness....ate and slept in the cabin.....and read Osho's "Book of Secrets" on the patio in the morning and evening sunrise/sunset.
It was a beautiful retreat. And between the lines ...permeating the words of that book....was the presence. This was before I met AYP. I had been doing another mantra meditation for years. But.....in the presence of that book.....in between reading it.....the sound of the full F happened during meditation. And it stayed on after the sitting finished. Listening to it was immensely ecstatic and in seconds would lead to whole body valley orgasms....just from the hearing of it. I sat there.....merging with the closest birch tree....completely amazed at how everything was lovable.
Eventually....over the years that followed.....the sound of the full F became what is now the roar of the silence.
I read the whole book again some years later. Funnily enough I never did any of the practices. What happened to me while in the space of reading it was more than enough.
And the consistency of my daily practice routine as it was.....was very important to me.
It was after all working just fine.
2 years later I googled my symptoms (I was in severe overload by then) and found AYP - thank God
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Dec 11 2010 : 8:32:17 PM
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| What do you mean by "full" F? Does that mean the first one above middle C? |
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slenten
23 Posts |
Posted - Dec 11 2010 : 11:40:11 PM
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Beautiful music! |
Edited by - slenten on Dec 13 2010 08:55:41 AM |
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cosmic
USA
821 Posts |
Posted - Dec 12 2010 : 12:50:21 AM
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Hi Katrine 
Your cabin retreat sounds like it was wonderful. Mountains are powerful. I stood on the peak of a very high one yesterday. It was so magical, the view from there. Felt like anything is possible.
I only tried a few practices from the book, but that was before I got fully established in AYP DM. But just reading the book, I can appreciate the value of it.
Hope all is well with you
Love
cosmic |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Dec 12 2010 : 1:35:41 PM
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Hi Etherfish
quote:
What do you mean by "full" F? Does that mean the first one above middle C?
No....
It contained all the F's.....all the octaves.......and yet it was much more than that. It carried the resonance of all the notes in-between too, however the main pitch was F. And it was in complete harmony......I can't explain it in a musical sense. My understanding is too limited.
But my body understood it just fine :)
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Dec 12 2010 : 1:44:59 PM
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Hi Cosmic
quote:
Hi Katrine
Your cabin retreat sounds like it was wonderful. Mountains are powerful. I stood on the peak of a very high one yesterday. It was so magical, the view from there. Felt like anything is possible.
I only tried a few practices from the book, but that was before I got fully established in AYP DM. But just reading the book, I can appreciate the value of it.
Hope all is well with you
Love
cosmic
Mountains have taught me a lot.
All is well here thank you. I am spending my last 2 weeks in Ireland in Dublin city. Walking the old viking tracks. Befriending the river Liffy. Meeting all kinds of people. Summing up the year in Eire :)
Do keep climbing those mountains, it is so worth it isn't it - all the way of the way
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Dec 12 2010 : 4:10:16 PM
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Thanks Katrine,
I know exactly what you mean. I used to play an organ that you could adjust the harmonics of each note, which is really adding higher notes into it that are related.
So I got used to hearing all of the harmonics in other instruments. Most people hear only one note with different characteristics instead of harmonics. I can hear it either way. Of course the sound you are talking about is beyond what my organ could do, but at least I understand it.
I can see mountains from my window! I live in the foothills. |
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Paarayana
