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The "Paarayana," as I have so awesomely coined the new word taken from the first teachings of the Buddha called the "Parayanavagga," the "Chapter about the Path on the Other Shore" boils this down and describes an instantaneous nirvana. If find these teachings very credible because Buddha is talking to non-buddhists, in a pre-sangha time. His teachings are not dressed up for his congregation. They ring with the spontaneity of someone who is just sitting around answering questions, rather than a rehearsed sermon. These are believed to be the oldest recorded sayings of Buddha.

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It might take checking out the ultimate bliss practice before you finally give up trying to find that one last move that will spark the permanent omnipresent orgasm and realize, it doesn't exist like the Tooth Fairy.

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If "abiding inner silence" is what you folks need, then by all means abide in silence. There's nothing wrong with it. At some point one has to observe that it doesn't last unless you keep cultivating and cultivating and you are a prisoner of cultivation.

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Originally posted by jeff

Saagaram,

Found a passage from the bible in John 4:35-38 that I believe supports your original point (long forgotten).

35Say not ye, There are yet four months, and then cometh harvest? behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields; for they are white already to harvest.

36And he that reapeth receiveth wages, and gathereth fruit unto life eternal: that both he that soweth and he that reapeth may rejoice together.

37And herein is that saying true, One soweth, and another reapeth.

38I sent you to reap that whereon ye bestowed no labour: other men laboured, and ye are entered into their labours.

As you stated, no need to labor, just reap the field that is already white for harvest. Still working on making it that simple for me.

Namaste, Jeff

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Originally posted by Saagaram

"The mind is the chief." --Dhammapada.

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I know well many teach meditation is cultivating the silent gap between thoughts. That is a pernicious effort. It is that exact effort which leaves you unprepared for difficult feelings and events. Those cannot be stopped no matter what you do. Realizing that the nature of the world is like this is the liberation.

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The Witness if you like is never moved or disturbed. There's nothing to cultivate the witness. It is the base of consciousness. It is the nirvana body. Knowing that, being that, let come what may. So you see, discernment, the mind, is a required function for liberation. If you know in your mind what the facts are, you can put the matter aside. It's ignorance that harms the practice.

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Practice of mantras and pranayama, in my view, allow one to perceive this silent witness. But one also needs to perceive the dharmakaya, which is the steady stream of thoughts and events in the world that never ever ever stops. A high level of realization is gaining conviction that all these are the same nature as the witness, which is a real mind blow.

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I appreciate your understanding. I agree with you there is a path and there is the pathless. I have said in this thread that there is a use for active practice. I have said it is for examining phenomena and consciousness. Clearly the yoga community has its own slant. That's to be expected. This is Advanced Yoga Practices.

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Originally posted by Parallax

Welcome Saagaram!! Glad to have you here on the forums...very useful to hear different perspectives/experiences

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Originally posted by Saagaram

"The mind is the chief." --Dhammapada.

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"The Witness is the chief, the mind only thinks it is." --Parallax

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Originally posted by Saagaram

In a sense, the witness never makes decisions. It just witnesses. So how could it be chief?

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There's more to realize.

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You have to liberate your mind, not sequester it and hold it hostage.

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Originally posted by Saagaram

Hi CarsonZi, Thanks for the welcome.

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Originally posted by Saagaram

I keep reading you guys saying this or that is in the mind and AYP is deeper than that or something to that effect.

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Originally posted by Saagaram

I have beliefs.

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Originally posted by Saagaram

I don't go beyond what I can perceive, at least, with my mind. Feelings, emotions, sensations, all fall within what I can perceive with my mind. Stillness, movement, all that is part of mind. "The mind is the chief." --Dhammapada.

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Originally posted by Saagaram

I can't say I see spiritual practice as maximizing my human potential.

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Originally posted by Saagaram

That sounds so Tony Robbins. To each his own.

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Originally posted by Saagaram

My realization, in my mind, is that this dimension is the product of oppositions and conflicts, like grasping and rejecting over and over again, and by giving that up, I have short-circuited the power to a runaway train. If you tell me about my soul or god or whatever, I won't be interested.

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Originally posted by Saagaram

I get you meet people where they are at. But serious students need to figure out the teaching too, especially when it is not easy.

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Originally posted by Saagaram

I'm under no illusion of thinking people generally would go along with what I'm saying. Even with Yogani's way, it's a narrow cast of characters that is going to get into it. Attitudes of folks varies widely. There's no one size fits all.

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Originally posted by Saagaram

Enlightenment is not found in the mind but in the moment? What finds the moment? You lost me.

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Originally posted by CarsonZi
Originally posted by Saagaram

I have beliefs.

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Didn't you say near the beginning of this thread that you were "liberated from beliefs."

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In my experience there is a stillness, a silence, that is beyond the individual mind. The mind is used as a tool to access this (which is always present anyways, but is often overshadowed with thoughts) but it is beyond the mind. If the mind was the Source of everything, well, when mind dies, when the human nervous system dies, so would everything else. Obviously that isn't the case since human beings are dying all the time and there is no beginning or end to existence.

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Perhaps because you aren't engaged in any spiritual practices? I know spiritual practice has certainly brought my body/mind to a higher level of functioning!

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Won't tell you about your soul or god, but I will tell you that liberation is not found in the mind. Liberation is not an intellectual realization. Liberation is liberation FROM the (limited) intellect! And that doesn't mean that there isn't any intelligence anymore, it just means that we are no longer living from a place where our limited mind is the determining factor anymore. We are then living from a place of "higher intellect." Knowing things that can't be known, as we are directly connected to the Source of all intellect. This is where words begin to fail as they can only point to the Truth, they can not themselves BE Truth.

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What about the rest of humanity that is not considered by you to be "serious students?" Don't they deserve to know their True Nature as well? Sounds very seperatist to me, and to me, this entire journey is about realizing Unity, not creating more seperation. It is (IMO) about realizing and embodying the truth that all seperation is in the imagination.

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Everyone that needs to find AYP will find it. Can't be any other way. It is no mistake that you are here.

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This is just trying to indicate (which is difficult to do with words since what we are trying to indicate is something that is beyond words) that enlightenment/unity/self-realization/whatever-you-want-to-call-it is not an intellectual realization. You can't *think* you are enlightened/liberated. You can't think yourself to enlightenment/liberation. "You" cannot be enlightened/liberated at all. Enlightenment is worn by the moment. It is embodied as the moment.

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Originally posted by Katrine

Even after this realization is stable - even after recognizing myself in everything I look at, perceiving everything "out there" to arise within myself - the fact remains that that which is before all things seen and sensed, permeating all things seen and sensed, is not something to be grasped with the mind. So for me - the conviction does not liberate.

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Originally posted by Saagaram

My spiritual practice is to dwell in the nirvana nature.

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Originally posted by Saagaram

Discernment is a key to liberation. What is discernment? I can't really say, it is beyond the intellect, I will grant you that. But it is a function of the mind, an inherent function, the intuitive insight.

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Originally posted by Saagaram

A serious student is someone who is seriously working at it. Whether someone is serious or not is not for me to say. I'm just talking about the student teacher dynamic. Both have to work towards each other. It's not a one way thing.

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Originally posted by Saagaram

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Everyone that needs to find AYP will find it. Can't be any other way. It is no mistake that you are here.

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There are many ways to look at it.

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Originally posted by Saagaram

Okay. I agree. Thinking is characterized by grasping and rejecting, a dialectic. Once one gives that up, what remains is beyond the intellect, yet it is clearly apparent. While it is apparent, nothing can be said about it, and it cannot be pointed out. This is the refuge of nirvana.

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Paarayana

1. With ignorance the world is shrouded. Because of stinginess, heedlessness, it doesn't shine. With longing it's smeared — I tell you. Suffering-stress: its great danger & fear.

2. Whatever streams there are in the world: their blocking is mindfulness, mindfulness is their restraint — I tell you — with discernment they're finally stopped.

3. This question you've asked, I'll answer it for you — where name & form are brought to a halt without trace: With the cessation of consciousness they're brought to a halt.

4. He should not hanker for sensual pleasures, should be limpid in mind. Skilled in all mental qualities, he, the monk, should live his life mindfully.

5. He who in the midst of sensualities, follows the holy life, always mindful, craving-free; the monk who is — through fathoming things — Unbound: he has no agitations. He, the thinker knowing both sides, doesn't adhere in between. He I call a great person. He here has gone past the seamstress: craving.

6. Those many human seers — noble warriors, brahmins — who have offered sacrifices to devas here in the world, hoping for more of this state of being, offered their sacrifices because of aging.

7. They hoped for, liked, longed for, so sacrificed — they longed for sensuality, dependent on gain. I tell you: those who take on the yoke of sacrifice, impassioned with the passion for becoming, have not crossed over birth & aging.

8. He who has fathomed the far & near in the world, for whom there is nothing perturbing in the world — his vices evaporated, undesiring, untroubled, at peace — he, I tell you, has crossed over birth & aging.

9. If you ask me the coming-into-being of stress & suffering, I will tell it to you as one who discerns. From acquisition as cause the many forms of stress & suffering come into being in the world. Whoever, unknowing, makes acquisitions — the fool — comes to stress & suffering again & again. So one who's discerning, focused on the birth of stress & suffering, their coming-into-being, should make no acquisitions.

10. I will teach you the Dhamma — in the here & now, not quoted words — knowing which, living mindfully, you'll cross over beyond entanglement in the world.

11. Whatever you're alert to, above, below, across, in between: dispelling any delight, any laying claim to those things, consciousness should not take a stance in becoming. The monk who dwells thus — mindful, heedful — letting go of his sense of mine, knowing right here would abandon birth & aging, lamentation & sorrow, stress & suffering.

12. Whoever you recognize as a knowledgeable brahmin, possessing nothing, unentangled in sensuality & becoming yes, he has crossed over the flood. Having crossed to the far shore, he is without harshness or doubt. And anyone who has realized, who is knowledgeable here, having unentangled the bond to becoming and non-, free of craving, untroubled, undesiring — he, I tell you, has crossed over birth & aging.

13. Whatever you're alert to, above, below, across, in between: knowing it as a bond in the world, don't create craving for becoming or non-becoming.

14. Mindfully focused on nothing, relying on 'There isn't,' (anything to rely on) you should cross over the flood. Abandoning sensual pleasures, abstaining from conversations, keep watch for the ending of craving, night & day.

15. One free from passion for all sensual pleasures relying on nothing, letting go of all else, released in the highest emancipation of perception: He stays there unaffected.

16. As a flame overthrown by the force of the wind goes to an end that cannot be classified, so the sage free from naming activity goes to an end that cannot be classified.

17. One who has reached the end has no criterion by which anyone would say that — for him it doesn't exist. When all phenomena are discarded, all means of speaking are discarded as well.

18. Not on account of his views, learning, or knowledge do the skilled here call one a sage. Those who live disarmed, undesiring, untroubled: those, I say, are called sages.

19. Whatever priests & contemplatives describe purity in terms of views & learning, describe purity in terms of precepts & practices, describe purity in terms of manifold ways: none of them, living there in that way, I tell you, have crossed over birth & aging.

20. I don't say that all priests & contemplatives are shrouded in birth & aging. Those here who've abandoned what's seen, heard, & sensed, precepts & practices — all — who've abandoned their manifold ways — again, all — who, comprehending craving, are effluent-free: they are the ones, I tell you, who've crossed over the flood.

21. Here with regard to things that are dear — seen, heard, sensed, & cognized — there is the dispelling of passion & desire, the undying state of Unbinding. Those knowing this, mindful, fully unbound in the here & now, are forever calmed, have crossed over, beyond entanglement in the world.

22. One in whom there dwell no sensualities; one in whom no craving is found; one who has crossed over perplexity — his emancipation is not other than that.

23. He's without desire, not desiring; discerning, not still acquiring discernment. Recognize the sage as having nothing, unentangled in sensuality & becoming.

24. For one stranded in the middle of the lake, in the flood of great danger — birth — overwhelmed with aging & death, I will tell you the island. Having nothing, clinging to no thing: That is the island, there is no other. That's Unbinding, I tell you, the total ending of aging & death. Those knowing this, mindful, fully unbound in the here & now, don't serve as Mara's servants, don't come under Mara's sway.

25. Subdue greed for sensual pleasures, & see renunciation as rest. Let there be nothing grasped or rejected by you. Burn up what's before, and have nothing for after. If you don't grasp at what's in between, you will go about, calm. One completely devoid of greed for name & form, brahmin, has no effluents by which he would go under Mara's sway.

26. Subdue craving & clinging — all — above, below, across, in between. For whatever people cling to in the world, it's through that that Mara pursues them. So a monk, mindful, seeing these people clinging to entanglement as entangled in Death's realm, should cling to nothing in all the world, every world.

27. The abandoning both of sensual desires, & of unhappiness, the dispelling of sloth, the warding off of anxieties, equanimity-&-mindfulness purified, with inspection of mental qualities swift in the forefront: That I call the gnosis of emancipation, the breaking open of ignorance.

28. With delight the world is fettered. With directed thought it is examined. Through the abandoning of craving is there said to be Unbinding.

29. Not relishing feeling, inside or out: One living mindful in this way brings consciousness to a halt.

30. The Tathagata, knowing directly all stations of consciousness, knows for one stationed in them release & the steps leading there. Knowing directly the origin of nothingness to be the fetter of delight, one then sees there clearly. That's his genuine knowledge — the brahmin who has lived to fulfillment.

31. View the world as empty — always mindful to have removed any view about “itself.” This way one is above & beyond death. This is how one views the world so as not to be seen by Death's king.

32. Seeing people suffering on account of their bodies — heedless people are oppressed on account of their bodies — then heedful let go of the body for the sake of no further becoming.

33. Seeing people, victims of craving — aflame, overwhelmed with aging — then heedful let go of craving for the sake of no further becoming.

34. This doctrine is instantaneous and immediate, the destruction of craving and distress, the likeness of which does not exist anywhere. This is the Buddha you see in your mind as if in your eye. Being vigilant day and night. Pass the night ever so mindful. For that reason there is no staying away from the Buddha.

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Originally posted by Saagaram
Time for me to shut up and be it.

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Originally posted by Saagaram

Okay I see where you guys are coming from. This is like the mind/nature of mind distinction. For me it is all mind. The witness is the mind, and what you are calling "mind" is discursive mind.

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Originally posted by Saagaram
Time for me to shut up and be it.

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Originally posted by Saagaram

Hi folks, I think my time for blab is at an end. Time for me to shut up and be it. I'll be around and yuk up when it seems right. I've extracted the essential sayings from the Parayanavagga in case anyone is interested in getting the meat. Enjoy.

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Paarayana


24. For one stranded in the middle of the lake, in the flood of great danger — birth — overwhelmed with aging & death, I will tell you the island. Having nothing, clinging to no thing: That is the island, there is no other. That's Unbinding, I tell you, the total ending of aging & death. Those knowing this, mindful, fully unbound in the here & now, don't serve as Mara's servants, don't come under Mara's sway.

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Hi folks, I think my time for blab is at an end. Time for me to shut up and be it. I'll be around and yuk up when it seems right. I've extracted the essential sayings from the Parayanavagga in case anyone is interested in getting the meat. Enjoy.

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