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Saagaram
USA
87 Posts |
 Posted - Dec 03 2010 : 4:20:19 PM
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Hi Everyone,
This is my first post. I think I discovered something. I was reading a small book called "The Rhinoceros Horn," the early talks by Buddha to various yogis. It was pre-sangha. In there is a chapter called "Parayanavagga." It means chapter on the vehicle of the other shore. It talks about nirvana now, not a graduated path. Somehow this really struck me, kind of woke me up. If one just stays in a state where nothing is grasped or rejected there's nothing to meditate and you are in an inconceivable way. It's an effortless pleasure. To me this is fantastic. So I know it's weird when we think of yoga with nothing to do. But an open mind is good too. I looked at other teachings, like the Vimalakirti Nirdesa Sutra which is supposedly mahayana. They are basically talking about this I think. There are so many methods, views and ways out there. There are so many ways of saying Buddhism has yanas and different meditation levels, and so many yoga teachers saying one million and one different methods and ways. I personally feel constrained by them. I think when Buddha first woke up he looked at his "yana" as the "paarayana," the vehicle of being on the other side already. That was the point, but then at the time people couldn't accept it, people are conditioned to grades and methods. Buddha called this nirvana an instantaneous path and it really is this simple and immediate. It occurred to me that all "paths" are basically leading no where except to an annoying mental fixation, and when you give up searching and fixating the mind and wondering "what stage am I on?," or on what to do, liberation just is, which is fantastic feeling with no past, present or future orientation. It's indescribable and that's the non-path path. I don't mean to impose or contend. But I'm just wondering what could be more blissful than knowing you are already liberated and there is nothing to do? Like already being in heaven or something. Or if there are other people who agree with me or if I'm all alone in this here. Thanks.
Saagaram
All these texts are free online too you can google and see. |
Edited by - AYPforum on Dec 14 2010 4:22:02 PM |
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machart
USA
342 Posts |
Posted - Dec 03 2010 : 4:36:18 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Saagaram
Like already being in heaven or something.
I like that!
Welcome to the forum Saagaram! |
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bewell
1275 Posts |
Posted - Dec 03 2010 : 5:34:56 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Saagaram
...."Parayanavagga." It means chapter on the vehicle of the other shore. It talks about nirvana now, not a graduated path.
Welcome!
What about both/and? Both "nirvana now" and "graduated path." |
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Saagaram
USA
87 Posts |
Posted - Dec 03 2010 : 6:21:58 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by bewell
quote:
Originally posted by Saagaram
...."Parayanavagga." It means chapter on the vehicle of the other shore. It talks about nirvana now, not a graduated path.
Welcome!
What about both/and? Both "nirvana now" and "graduated path."
Isn't it either or? Once you're there, there's no going there. I'm not saying graduated paths are of no use. Everyone must chart their own course. People can see it totally another way and not be wrong. Right or wrong is not this paarayana. Certainly the graduated path only is not the only. I'm just saying, it doesn't take much not to take much up. Not having a view is not having a view. |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Dec 03 2010 : 6:33:44 PM
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Welcome to the forum!
It sounds good on paper, but there really is no goal that is reached and that's all there is. If you don't believe this, then try just believing that you are liberated for a few months and see how you feel. Then try doing twice daily meditation AYP style for a few months, and see how that makes you feel.
It takes consistent practice over time for things to happen. |
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Saagaram
USA
87 Posts |
Posted - Dec 03 2010 : 6:40:39 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
Welcome to the forum!
It sounds good on paper, but there really is no goal that is reached and that's all there is. If you don't believe this, then try just believing that you are liberated for a few months and see how you feel. Then try doing twice daily meditation AYP style for a few months, and see how that makes you feel.
It takes consistent practice over time for things to happen.
For what to happen? No goal. Yes. I don't believe I'm liberated. I'm liberated from belief. |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Dec 03 2010 : 7:15:32 PM
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| Oh, so you are still doing practices, but with no goal? Me too! |
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Saagaram
USA
87 Posts |
Posted - Dec 03 2010 : 7:17:43 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
Oh, so you are still doing practices, but with no goal? Me too!
No. I'm not practicing anything. I'm saying where's the future? |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Dec 03 2010 : 7:31:20 PM
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| I don't know; I don't give that much thought. But I do practices daily - it's a good thing. But you're right, having expectations is detrimental. One has to practice with no expectations. And bhakti during the day is good too. |
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Saagaram
USA
87 Posts |
Posted - Dec 03 2010 : 7:50:08 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
I don't know; I don't give that much thought. But I do practices daily - it's a good thing. But you're right, having expectations is detrimental. One has to practice with no expectations. And bhakti during the day is good too.
I prefer to practice no expectations. So what's to practice? |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Dec 03 2010 : 8:27:00 PM
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If you click on "main lessons" or get the little book "Deep Meditation" you will learn the easy, twice daily practices. It's not the same meaning of the word you may be used to. You are not trying to do something, you are just doing it.
The mind plays tricks on you and tells you there is nothing to practice because yoga practices develop no-mind which is against the mind. It's hard to explain because explanations are filtered through the mind we try to minimize. |
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Saagaram
USA
87 Posts |
Posted - Dec 03 2010 : 8:40:09 PM
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| Perhaps the mind plays tricks on you that no-mind and mind are in opposition. The mind is beyond explanations, yes. It is beyond experience, feeling, doing, not doing, trying, not trying, meditating and not meditating. What you are trying to convince me to do is to take up something. But you haven't told me why. I remain here, neither embracing nor rejecting anything. Happy and free. |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Dec 03 2010 : 9:56:13 PM
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| Doing nothing is also a choice. I don't need to convince you to take up anything. I just thought you came here for something. Maybe not. I'm out. |
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Saagaram
USA
87 Posts |
Posted - Dec 03 2010 : 10:05:53 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
Doing nothing is also a choice. I don't need to convince you to take up anything. I just thought you came here for something. Maybe not. I'm out.
I'm just saying "hey look what I found." Anyway. Peace out! |
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yogani
USA
5201 Posts |
Posted - Dec 03 2010 : 11:11:04 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Saagaram
I'm just saying "hey look what I found." Anyway. Peace out!
Hi Saagaram and welcome!
What you found is an idea, and it is a start. It will take years (maybe decades) of earnest effort to unfold the reality of the actual condition the idea conveys. It is not something you can create (or uncreate) with your mind. It has to be cultivated in your subtle neurobiology and in your bones, and that awakening takes time.
The Buddha spent many years on the path of practices before he found his "instant" enlightenment. Then he formulated the "four noble truths" and the "eight-fold path," and many nuances of it while spending the rest of his life (some 40 years) tirelessly serving others on their spiritual journeys. That is a more realistic view of the Buddha, and a more realistic view of what is involved in human spiritual transformation. It is not much about holding a philosophical view on non-doing, or playing a game about having a non-view, which is nothing but another castle in the air. We are talking about something much more real and lasting than that. Not something we have to remind ourselves (or anyone else) about every five minutes. Enlightenment is something we uncover within us, something that is self-sustaining and ever-lasting. It cannot be argued for or against.
Having an ideal is very important, but if you don't take practical steps to realize it, you will find the going getting tough pretty soon. See how it goes in the coming months. See how it is when you are facing hardship. If you can stand firm in your new-found belief for six months, you will have proved yourself stubborn enough to be worthy of long term practices, if you are able to make a rational connection between cause and effect. And if you get worn out before six months are up (most taking your position do), then you will be ready for practices even sooner. Or maybe you will drop the whole thing for a while. One thing is for sure. You can't sustain the idea or non-idea indefinitely. Something with more staying power will have to be uncovered deep within you. That is what meditation is for. Buddhists do meditate, you know. And so do we here.
Also, you may want to check out this lesson on the art of doing nothing: http://www.aypsite.org/84.html
Wishing you all the best on your (non)path. Good luck, and Enjoy!
The guru is in you.
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JDH
USA
331 Posts |
Posted - Dec 03 2010 : 11:28:29 PM
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| It is indeed quite a paradox - and yet something is definitely happening as a result of doing the practices. Other than strange neuro-electric sensations throughout the body, I'm not sure what that something is yet. But it's something. |
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Saagaram
USA
87 Posts |
Posted - Dec 03 2010 : 11:36:50 PM
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| Thank you and all of you for the welcome. Very kind. Thank you fro discussing. Buddha spent years on practices that got him no where. He disavowed them when he realized that. All the stations of consciousness he was taught to enter, he realized were the problem. Also Buddha taught at different levels. Four Noble Truths and Eightfold Path are just one level for certain audience. I don't harbor an ideal, a belief or a philosophical view. That's not in anything I wrote. Maybe you are assuming that. I don't know what castle in the air you are talking about. I'm talking about no castles in the air. I could say that about practices. They are just like sand castles. I read Etherfish tell me practices are good, feels good, and you are telling me you are talking about something much more real than what I'm talking about. I'm sorry. Forgive me for saying this, but I'm talking about being liberated from whatever you are talking about because you can't say clearly what you are talking about and I can't be hindered by that. When it comes to hardships, what is that? Some discomfort. When the mind doesn't focus on that and doesn't perceive it what remains is indescribable joy. There's nothing more real that one's own experience. Discernment discovers this naturally abiding pleasure. |
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Saagaram
USA
87 Posts |
Posted - Dec 03 2010 : 11:57:56 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by JDH
It is indeed quite a paradox - and yet something is definitely happening as a result of doing the practices. Other than strange neuro-electric sensations throughout the body, I'm not sure what that something is yet. But it's something.
Sure that's your perception. The mind does have this base of not bothering with perceiving or not. It's not an idea; it's a settling down. When these join at the base of the mind's natural disposition, which is beyond opposites, it like releases a fusion explosion of joy energy, because our dimension is the opposition of attraction and repulsion. The paradox has to settle down into the mind without focusing on it into a state beyond ideas. |
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JDH
USA
331 Posts |
Posted - Dec 04 2010 : 12:46:18 AM
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I have experienced the fusion explosions of joy as well - such an experience was what eventually led me to this site - but for whatever reason, it was a fleeting experience. Telling me that I'm already there does me about as much good as somebody telling you you're not there. I agree that liberation and enlightenment are available in the present moment to all - and that most people experience it for short periods at some point in their life, but to be able to stay present in it, is just not happening for me. Hence, practices. For other people, it is an easier and more permanent shift, and I'm glad for you if that's what has happened. It's discussed in the link Yogani wrote in his note. Different strokes for different folks.
You seem to have discovered how to settle down into whatever key element it is that we are trying to awaken to with practices. Whatever you would call it, a settling down, a focusing, a discernment of opposites, perceiving and non perceiving - imagine trying to explain how to do whatever it is you just discovered to somebody who has no idea what you're even talking about, and that is what the practices are for. |
Edited by - JDH on Dec 04 2010 12:58:11 AM |
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Saagaram
USA
87 Posts |
Posted - Dec 04 2010 : 10:03:51 AM
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I'll play along for a few more minutes. Before I get into this, I just want to point out that I'm not saying do nothing. I'm not saying do anything or do nothing. I'm saying there is nothing to do or not do. If you don't understand this point, then you need to look into it until you do. You can even give up questing, the mind is already okay, or you can go at it full bore, the mind won't care. Hamster wheel.
quote:
Q: Krishnamurti and other interesting people say that it is wrong to focus on techniques because there is no technique for meditation. Meditation is all the time, here and now. Doing a mantra and using pranayama is using a technique. And I reason it is to raise my energy level and tune in so that I can experience bliss and the world in its deepest levels. But why do some teachers say that techniques are wrong and that they will mislead you - and they give then no instruction but saying be aware, or maybe not even that. Why, does that fit into the yogic understanding?
A: It is only a theory, but perhaps people like Krishnamurti are like successful mountain climbers who have lost their memory. They stand on top of the mountain and say to everyone down in the valley, "You don't have to do anything. Just automatically wake up on the top of the mountain like I did. You are here already." They were born at or close to enlightenment, and apparently have no recollection of all the work they did in previous lives to produce that situation. If we do nothing, we will eventually reach enlightenment a kazillion years from now. If we do something, it will be much sooner. There are certain methods that are known to advance the enlightenment process. That is what yoga is.
Each chooses their own path, to do or not to do. Even a path of consciously doing nothing (or "being aware") is a doing....
What I want to know is why I'm being pidgeon-holed here? This is a mistake of discourse to steer an audience into perceiving someone a certain way by comparing them to someone else. Also the speaker, Yogani, is saying, I've already been there done that, and this guy, me, hasn't, and I've already got his number and he's like this... Then everybody goes, "oh yeah, Yogani is the master and he totally saw this guy coming." I guarantee you he doesn't see me coming because this is a red herring, and besides that doing nothing is not an action and even if you think it is, actions or no actions, liberation is liberation and it is beyond verbal categories. The comment is an effort to keep you sold on a product, look right, click and buy. So I know why I'm being pidgeon-holed. So why do I keep typing? Why not?
Yogani is refuting Krisnamurti, and then asserting that his way is better. He's saying "these are the tools that cause enlightenment." "I have the answer you all are looking for." But what is that? It comes down to some sensation or emotion and that is not liberation, because feelings and emotions are impermanent and do not exist in themselves. They are dependent on action and actions and feelings are just like reflections in the mirror, no staying power.
I don't know what anyone means by enlightenment, and I'm pretty sure no one knows what it means or everyone means something different. Liberation is different. Liberation is not trying to make something happen or trying to alter something from the way it already is. It literally means liberating oneself from the perception of dissatisfaction with whatever is happening now and not caring about having it be a different way later. In a real sense, it means not trying to cognize about it, not theorize about it, etc. I'm not saying be aware or do nothing or do anything other than what you are doing. If you feel like doing yoga practice, then do that with understanding and observation of your real condition so you can wake up from your dream you keep imposing on yourself.
What Buddha meant by liberation was waking up from the dream. Different yoga and buddhism schools equate enlightenment with immortality, indestructibility, ecstasy sensation (who doesn't want a permanent full body orgasm?), omniscience, omnipresence and omnipotence (who doesn't want to be God?). Hell yeah, I want to have God's power and stroll around the universe with a permanent orgasm. Or it's burning up your fuel and no longer existing or not existing, just like being on vacation. Who doesn't want a permanent vacation? OR! I'll just wake up now, because that's a big FANTASY! The future is not real; actions do not produce anything permanent, etc., etc.
I'm not saying there is no God or there is. I'm saying all these things have the same nature of being a dream. I didn't come here to make opponents, I came here to see if there are like-mindeds. Not that a fair debate isn't good, but this will probably turn into "Saagaram Versus the World," and I'll have to defeat Yogani's seven former evil teachers before we get to date. I don't have any practices to teach; that's for sure. I'm not selling anything. Yogani has his experiences which have shaped his beliefs and views, which have shaped his explanations, which have shaped his motives for injecting himself into this conversation, which have shaped everyone's views who have shaped a view about Yogani. Leave me out of it.
And before you buy into the slogan "this way for guaranteed spiritual transformation," the byline being, "fixing all the broken traditions of the world," understand that people have been waking up for millenia using one million and one different ways from the beginning. This is the dimension of dreams and waking up. Suffering, impermanence and interdependence make that sure, because those are the dream. Everything you see, hear, read, know, do, have, experience, all are going (nudge nudge)... "hey wake up." Folks wake up all the time and don't even think, "wow I'm enlightened." I'm saying why not wake up from the one million and one different ways? Or you can keep singing that good ol' country song, "I Keep Doin' It the Hard Way."
Everyone who wakes up, wakes up to the same thing. Anyone who sincerely turns their attention to this problem wakes up. In Buddhism, millions of people have done it, same with everyone else. Previous lives and future lives should not be a concern. That's just more dreaming. There's no barrier. There's no prerequisite. The space of experience is the space of totally open possibilities, and the nature of actions is for all possibilities to happen. In fact, all possibilities are complete this instant. Open your mind up to the way it is.
Too bad there's no open forum that isn't tied to a teacher. The last thing I need is someone telling me who I am and what I'm about while selling me on a package and what he's about. You ain't my Jesus Christ, honey. Not that it's not a good package. I have no doubt that it works great and is generating one enlightened published success testimonial after another. I also don't believe it either not for a minute. Why should I have an opinion about this? Why should you? |
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yogani
USA
5201 Posts |
Posted - Dec 04 2010 : 11:20:34 AM
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Hi Saagaram:
The Buddha disavowed living an extreme ascetic lifestyle, which he had done without any meaningful results. He did not disavow meditation, living a monastic live (optional), or serving others. In other words, he did not disavow effective practices. He did not disavow what you are doing either. He taught a balance between all these elements according to individual need. So if what you are doing fits your need, that's great, but don't expect it to be the same for everyone.
The comments I made about seeing if you can keep up what you are doing (or not doing) for 6 months are based on many who have come around with similar non-duality arguments, which 9 times out of 10 are only intellectual, and unsustainable in practical living. So it is just a heads up in case you are a beginner, which your statement, "Hey, look what I found" seems to imply. Maybe not.
In any case, the approach you are describing works best when entertained in abiding inner silence. In AYP we call that "relational self-inquiry" (in stillness) with the opposite being "non-relational self-inquiry" (in the mind). This is far more than a theory. The terminology actually evolved from the direct experiences of many who have come to it from various directions, including from the same (non)position you are describing. It is discussed in detail in the AYP lessons, starting around here: http://www.aypsite.org/321.html
All of which is to say, meditation of some kind (the primary means for cultivating abiding inner silence) is essential for anyone who aspires to live a non-view, represented by Krishnamurti or anyone like him. The non-view itself can be an object of constant meditation (Krishnamurti's teaching), but that approach has been found by many to not be very efficient. So more efficient and easily applied methods for cultivating abiding inner silence have been developed. It is all for the same purpose.
The awakening of abiding inner silence (the witness) is the key, no matter what approach one is following. Maybe you were born with it. If so, good for you. And if not, then there is work to do. The truth about it is for you to determine, or to ignore as you see fit. There is nothing wrong with affirmation, as long as it is balanced with honest self-inquiry, preferably in stillness, the wellspring of all wisdom.
The goal here at AYP is to help as many as possible find their way forward on their own terms. That does not mean offering nothing. A lot of proven tools are available here, being used in many configurations. That is what AYP focuses on -- the tools, and the many ways they can be applied, depending on individual need. It is a resource that is open to all, to use or not use however each sees fit. That's all.
All the best!
The guru is in you.
PS: Yes, AYP began with basic discoveries on practice here, but has continued to evolve over the years with the collective discoveries of a large community of practitioners, which as a body of knowledge is far more significant than any one person's experience or point of view.
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Steve
277 Posts |
Posted - Dec 04 2010 : 11:51:15 AM
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Hi Saagaram,
Welcome to the forum and thank you for your postings and insights. Much appreciated.
quote:
If one just stays in a state where nothing is grasped or rejected there's nothing to meditate and you are in an inconceivable way. It's an effortless pleasure. To me this is fantastic. So I know it's weird when we think of yoga with nothing to do.
Most on the forum would agree that the true essence state of yoga is without doing as you have indicated.
quote:
I remain here, neither embracing nor rejecting anything. Happy and free.
That is wonderful Saagaram   .
For many including myself, even with this knowledge and understanding the actual realization, the ability to instantly and permanently stand free without embracing and rejecting anything proved illusive as lived in the moment-to-moment experience of everyday life. Eventually, each chooses the skillful means which works for themselves. Based on your insights, you were able to just let-go and remain at rest in your natural state. For others it is not as easy. They are not able to just let-go completely and find it helpful to engage in particular practices or what I refer to as Home Joys to untie the knots of habits, false-identification, grasping and doing that prevent us from just being who-what we are. For some, that is AYP. For others it may be something else or a combination of things. I know you know all this. Just saying the obvious. Given this is the AYP forum, it is understandeable that the majority of those who regularly post here would be in that group.
Please know, all viewpoints and insights are welcome. The discussions are helpful to many. Thank you for taking the time to say hello and posting. I am glad you are here.
Much Love to you always,
Steve |
Edited by - Steve on Dec 04 2010 12:44:08 PM |
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Holy
796 Posts |
Posted - Dec 04 2010 : 12:09:23 PM
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Hi Saagaram,
I am with you and with yogani. I know what you are talking about, it happened to me also, many times.. In other words, it never lasted. Then thoughts came like if it was "my" fault that I chose something else (again) or whatever that it did not last/be..
If it stays, great. If not.. =P
________
"
Besides this, there is something offered in the human-dream which is called never ending enlightenement or the highest stage of human evolution. There are many things a human can do. Watching TV =) Eating pizza, playing videogames :D Earning money and buying a car ^^ Having a partner, sharing love and having sex... And yeah, then there is something called being one with the whole universe and beyond. Only possible in a human body (most probably in other body types too, who knows =P).. So if you do the things above, why not the best what human-existence offers aswell?
Sure, it could be the ultimate distraction to truth that already is, but the good news is, it can be done in some years in this dream-life. So why not? And was it not that Buddha and all the other woken up guys had the same max-human-experience? Perhaps there is something, which is called fusioned-dual-max, meaning bringing the human-condition to its highest frution+waking up simultaeniously. At least "nonduality" would not discern.
"
Thus the evil mind spoke..
I am not quiet sure if we can do or choose something about it or not. "For me" it looks like, there is no choice. What happens happens, whatever it may be (waking up, dreaming, both fusioned etc..)..
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Saagaram
USA
87 Posts |
Posted - Dec 04 2010 : 1:04:22 PM
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| Hi guys, Thanks for adding. In my case, I don't care if thoughts are there or not or if an experience comes or goes. This is what I mean by liberation. For me, wanting some experience or disliking the presence of what is inevitable like thoughts is bondage. The heights of bliss attained in meditation are even more binding bondage. None of it is permanent. I agree with you Steve. Practices have their purpose. I'm saying the point of them is to investigate the nature of phenomena. We do these because we doubt and we hope and fear. Once the investigation is complete, close the case. It might take checking out the ultimate bliss practice before you finally give up trying to find that one last move that will spark the permanent omnipresent orgasm and realize, it doesn't exist like the Tooth Fairy. |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Dec 04 2010 : 2:04:36 PM
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Hi Saagaram - I'm back again,
It is clear from your comments that you don't understand what AYP meditation is for, and haven't read the lessons. But that is beside the point, you said you are looking for like minded people. What you are talking about is most prevalent in the advaita concept, or jnana yoga, non-duality section here at AYP:
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/forum.asp?FORUM_ID=54
You will find more like minded people there. Post something there and non-dual people can discuss it with you. |
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bewell
1275 Posts |
Posted - Dec 04 2010 : 2:43:55 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Saagaram
Like already being in heaven or something. Or if there are other people who agree with me or if I'm all alone in this here.
Saagaram
You are not alone in liberation, in "being in heaven or something." I can tell you that from experience.
You are also not alone in saying something like you have said:
"It occurred to me that all "paths" are basically leading no where except to an annoying mental fixation, and when you give up searching and fixating the mind and wondering "what stage am I on?," or on what to do, liberation just is, which is fantastic feeling with no past, present or future orientation. It's indescribable and that's the non-path path."
What you are saying reminds me a lot of what Steven Harrison says. He is the author of "Doing Nothing" and the book I picked up free in Phili a few years back, "The Question to Life's Answers: Spirituality Beyond Belief."
I checked just today, and he has a web page:
http://www.doingnothing.com/
As for me, well, after reviewing your thread here this morning, I went ahead and did my AYP-brand package morning practices: Spinal Breathing Pranayama, Deep Meditation and Samyama. |
Edited by - bewell on Dec 04 2010 3:18:13 PM |
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Paarayana
