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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
 Posted - Feb 22 2006 : 11:32:33 AM
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In the post on Thich Nhat Hanh, David said...
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Because merely excusing people, or pretending that they have not done wrong, is not forgiveness, and practice at that is not practice at forgiveness.
Now this was in respect to criminals. However, it can be applied to our daily lives too right. When we hold a grudge against someone, we need to forgive them in order to get that knot out of our system. How do we do this? How do we forgive somebody who has hurt us? Pretending it never happened may work for a short time, but is hard to do when it is someone you cannot dismiss from your life. This knot does not go away. I have tried to let it go... and out of sight is out of mind. However when they are near me, all that hurt comes pouring out. How do you learn to forgive?
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Feb 22 2006 : 12:16:55 PM
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Well, feeling all that hurt is a start. You have to completely go through all the pain and feel it for what it is. But after that point, you decide to let it go.
You have to come to the point where you realize that we all make mistakes, sometimes really bad ones, and while some mistakes may seem inexcusable, that doesn't mean that we can't move on and treat that person as a human being.
I have a friend who hurt me very bady at one time emotionally. At first I wanted revenge, then I decided we could be friends but I wouldn't ever trust her for anything, then later I decided there was only a small area where I wouldn't trust her.
Now I hardly ever think of it, and we're the best of friends.
So make sure you have felt the pain without repressing it, and make sure you have let them know how they made you feel.
Then you have to decide to let it go, and not bring it up again.
It takes time. They did what they did for a reason, and probably didn't want to hurt you.
You don't ever have to forget what they did, only forgive. |
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Feb 22 2006 : 1:04:43 PM
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| A component in learning to forgive is learning to let go of self-righteousness. It's seductive and delicious to be a victim; it somehow makes us look good, or so we think. So we run around telling our friends about the offense, gathering self-esteem as we go. In the end, tho, it only runs us down. It's important to let go of the story of the offense, and not allow yourself to repeat it over and over. In doing so you begin to lose it. True forgiveness? I think it's an act of grace that's bestowed upon the victim rather than the perpetrator. |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Feb 22 2006 : 2:51:07 PM
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Do it capriciously.
Seriously.
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Feb 22 2006 : 3:06:00 PM
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| Sorry to be so dumb but Huh???? |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Feb 22 2006 : 3:52:00 PM
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Forgive on a whim.
It's good practice to do heavy things with a light touch. |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Feb 22 2006 : 4:59:24 PM
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quote:
Forgive on a whim.
Jim how do you do that?
Meg, I would like to do that. But every time I see them or talk to them, all of the things that happened just come flooding back. More so, because they do not believe they have done anything wrong. Even today their lies don't end, but they believe in every word they say, they don't think they are lying...
Maybe it was not a good topic to start, esp. since I cannot say too much openly.
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Edited by - Shanti on Feb 22 2006 5:08:07 PM |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Feb 22 2006 : 5:44:54 PM
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You have to talk to them about the subject and let them know how you feel.
You may not stop them from lying, and you may not convince them they did anything wrong. but you have to let them know how it made you feel. it doesn't have to be logical. |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Feb 22 2006 : 6:07:03 PM
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| I would be too scared to pick up the topic. They get emotional and make you feel guilty and make you feel like you did something wrong and that you are the one lying... their view would be 'how could you even say something like that to us'. They would soon get a whole bunch of the family involved.. and things would go out of hand... Then this will continue till I say sorry for even thinking that way. I have tried, but failed, just come off feeling really small. I would just like to forgive them for their behavior, accept that is what they are and get on with my life. But I need to know how to do this? Any ideas? |
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Feb 22 2006 : 8:25:42 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Shanti
I would be too scared to pick up the topic. They get emotional and make you feel guilty and make you feel like you did something wrong and that you are the one lying... their view would be 'how could you even say something like that to us'. They would soon get a whole bunch of the family involved.. and things would go out of hand... Then this will continue till I say sorry for even thinking that way. I have tried, but failed, just come off feeling really small. I would just like to forgive them for their behavior, accept that is what they are and get on with my life. But I need to know how to do this? Any ideas?
Shanti - The key is that you want to forgive them, but it seems to you that there are too many obstacles which prevent it from happening, all of which, you seem to indicate, are generated from them. But in reading your post, it seems that the obstacles are really coming from you. There are as many approaches to forgiveness as there are to depression (another post), and each situation is unique. You might try Jim's suggestion to forgive on a whim, although that sounds to me a bit . . . well, whimsical. Maybe it works in some cases. I'm sure that there are people who have offended you in the past who you forgave without any issue. What was the difference between that situation and the current one?
I don't claim to have answers to the forgiveness thing, but have had some experience with it (haven't we all!) The grudges that we can't let go of are almost universally those in which the offenders admit no guilt, and accept no responsibility for their actions. It's extremely difficult to let go of a grudge when there has been no acknowledgement from the other party that they've behaved badly. That's when you have to see forgiveness as an act of inner strength on your part, which has absolutely nothing to do with them. They apparently think that they have nothing to apologize for, and aren't about to give an inch in your direction. This is not your problem! Don't make it your problem. This is something that they have to deal with, and all you need to do is see that it has nothing to do with you. It's possible that you're taking this far too personally. It's difficult to get around this wall, but once you do, it may set you free. For me, my ego was insanely involved and got way out of control, until I finally saw that it had nothing to do with me. Could this be the case with you?
When I finally saw all of this clearly, I did a ritual by myself to forgive and forget (accompanied by a lot of prayer), and I forgave the person after many years of holding a grudge, and within 2 weeks the person called and apologized. It was a confirmation that it was about me finding that place of forgiveness within myself first and foremost, and not about waiting for their apology before I could magnanimously forgive them.
I hope this has been helpful.
Respectfully,
meg |
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Feb 22 2006 : 11:31:35 PM
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Hi Shanti,
I agree with Meg and would suggest handling things from your end as there is little you can do about how others act or react. To me the first step is to realize that they can't hurt you unless you let them. They can say whatever they like but you are the one who chooses your reaction to their words. You can choose to see their words for expressions of their pain and suffering or you can be afraid that they might be right. One will help you forgive them the other will escalate your pain and the negative dynamic they are propagating.
If you are able to explore in your heart why they might actually be behaving the way they do and to recognize that they are likely acting out of pain, fear and ignorance, it makes it easier to have compassion for their situation. Once you feel compassion, forgiveness is an easy second step.
Ask yourself if deep down under their words that they might be desperately afraid that you might be right or that they might be wrong. Are they so unhappy and think so little of themselves that they can't possibly admit being inadequate or afraid? Find compassion for their suffering and know in your heart how you feel about the situation. You don't have to believe their words, just because someone says it is so doesn't mean it is "your truth or "the truth".
One last possibility, life often puts us into situations or surrounds us with people who are likely to teach us life lessons, so thank them for bringing this to you as it is your gift and opportunity from life to learn and grow.
good luck!
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Edited by - Anthem on Feb 22 2006 11:49:16 PM |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Feb 23 2006 : 01:33:21 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Shanti
quote:
Forgive on a whim.
Jim how do you do that?
What's unclear? Tell me and I'll try to clarify. |
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Feb 23 2006 : 04:59:26 AM
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You are making a choice to be in "victim consciousness". You can choose not to be a victim in this.
You can see the way it is upsetting and destroying your harmony and it is your choice to do this to yourself.
You can choose not to be a victim right now - on a whim. The feelings will still be there but it is different, you can rise out of the feeling and be strong. The feelings can then be processed through meditation or whatever means you use.
Anthem said:
If you are able to explore in your heart why they might actually be behaving the way they do and to recognize that they are likely acting out of pain, fear and ignorance, it makes it easier to have compassion for their situation. Once you feel compassion, forgiveness is an easy second step.
Once you have decided not to be the victim then applying the above and the other great advice here can be done from a stable place in yourself, and I agree compassion is the root of forgiveness.
Louis |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Feb 23 2006 : 10:32:18 AM
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Thank you all. I think I understand what all of you are trying to say, if I don't want to be hurt, then they cannot hurt me. I like what you said Anthem, they behave the way they do because of their own insecurities... I should not let them bring me down. For the last 3 years, since I have been doing meditation, and esp. the last one year when I have been doing AYP, I have found it very easy to let things go. When people hurt me, it does not really stick, and when things don't go my way, I don't let it affect me as it did before. I may still get hurt, but it does not take over my world, I can let it go. This is one thing that I have not been able to let go.. It is what I guess we call a "vasana" and if I don't overcome it in this life time, it will be one of the knots that will have to be cleaned up in my next life time.
Anthem said
quote:
life often puts us into situations or surrounds us with people who are likely to teach us life lessons, so thank them for bringing this to you as it is your gift and opportunity from life to learn and grow.
In the post "Samadhi in the Produce Aisle" Meg had said...
quote:
It may be that our greatest teachers are not the gurus, but those who annoy us the most. If we can learn to love even them, then surely we tap into something powerful within ourselves.
I think you are right. This is a lesson I have to learn. When ever I have decided I will not let them bother me, I tend to ignore them, or talk to them curtly. But that is not me. That gets me more upset than happy. So I guess I have to learn to love them, and yet not let them annoy me.
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Feb 23 2006 : 11:17:55 AM
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Another thing to keep in mind Shanti is that forgiveness isn't everything.
It's important, but not everything. Relationship management needs to be worked on from several different angles. It sounds to me as if you are dealing with someone who is difficult. Forgiveness is a gift to yourself and a big one to give yourself, but relationship management does not end there.
There may be many other approaches you need to take to adapt to handling this person.
-D |
Edited by - david_obsidian on Feb 23 2006 11:19:25 AM |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Feb 23 2006 : 1:11:41 PM
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quote:
You might try Jim's suggestion to forgive on a whim, although that sounds to me a bit . . . well, whimsical
Forgiveness is a release. A subtraction. A washing away. That's what we yoga practitioners are doing every day; stripping down and letting go, with a full heart and no prevarication. We're aiming to let go of everything.
We are like the giants in gulliver's travels, tied to the ground by a trillion tiny knots (all of which we've tied ourselves, though we think the world tied them). Don't agonize, just rip them loose. |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Feb 23 2006 : 3:40:58 PM
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The reason you can't forgive someone is because something they did hurt you, and you think they are wrong for doing it, and you want them to recognize what they did to show they have some intention of loving you.
So if you can't talk with them about it so you can let them know how you feel, then the only other option is you have to transcend your judgement of them being wrong in the first place. This is very hard to do, and it is not the best solution because it doesn't bring you closer to people in general.
It's like the guy in the cave meditating and trying to be closer to God.
He can get there, but doesn't do much for the rest of humanity.
It's like a person who's entire family is drowning, and he saves himself.
He could argue that he couldn't save anyone else, but the question remains if he could have tried harder.
So if you change your perception so you can forget about this thing the other person did, you make yourself feel better, but you do nothing for the relationship between you and them, and you do nothing to improve relations between yourself and others in the future.
So you can take the easy way out, but you will notice that this type of situation will come up again. . . |
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riptiz
United Kingdom
741 Posts |
Posted - Feb 23 2006 : 5:23:18 PM
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A lady at college quoted 'Love the sinner not the sin' which i think sums it up.
L&L
Dave
'the mind can see further than the eyes' |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Feb 23 2006 : 6:07:06 PM
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| I"m stubborn. I'm not going to give up. Shanti, can you forgive this simply for the heck of it? What if you grin, shrug your shoulders, and just, on a whim, choose to embrace and accept the portion of the universe inhabited by this person? As if this deep hurt and long history were just absolutely trivial? Can you at least try? Don't make a big dramatic moment. Just fill out the little gaps of things in the world you've chosen not to embrace and accept. Let it be like inflating a dented tin can, hearing it go "pop! pop! pop!" as all the dents push back out again! |
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david_obsidian
USA
2602 Posts |
Posted - Feb 23 2006 : 6:47:54 PM
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Did you see Terry Gilliam's 'Baron von Munchausen'?
The Baron abandoned a friend and left him to languish in prison for years. You should have a look at the scene where the Baron asks the friend to forgive him.
What more or less happens is the enraged friend says 'You expect me to forgive you for doing such a terrible thing to me?'
The baron says 'Yes'.
The friend thinks for a second then shrugs and says 'Oh all roight' and the friendship is instantly back where it was, with laughing and joking and they go on their merry way.
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Edited by - david_obsidian on Feb 24 2006 09:21:59 AM |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Feb 24 2006 : 09:28:35 AM
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Works when the other person asks for forgiveness, cannot work when the other person thinks they have done and are not doing anything wrong....
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Feb 24 2006 : 11:54:30 AM
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quote:
Works when the other person asks for forgiveness, cannot work when the other person thinks they have done and are not doing anything wrong....
Shanti, you're certain that there's an external process that must happen. That's ok. I'm telling you there's another way. Maybe one day you'll try it. Meanwhile, I hope you can experience the shine of God's love in everything ELSE in the universe, aside from this one point of it, while you wait for that one point to straighten itself out to the point where you can find peace.
Well, hmmm....it's surely not the only such point. I'm quite sure there are other points of the universe which you have issues with - and which must shape up in order to deserve your unreserved acceptance. When it all works out, and when the universe is just right, and you're just right, and all the processes are complete and all the bad people are fixed and all the pebbles are shaken out of your shoe, and the people who you need to forgive ask contritely for it and you have asked contritely for forgiveness from all the people YOU need to give and all these ducks are in a row, perhaps there'll be happiness and peace for you.
What a nice future point to look forward to! Life will be right,, the universe will be right, God will be right then. This point of enlightenment is in the future. But let's talk about now. What's right now going to be like? Are you just going to live for that future point?
My point in this thread: http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....TOPIC_ID=851 is that we're all reaching, reaching, trying, trying, moving, moving toward a future enlightenment where the universe will be 100% loveable. And there's always going to be some new pebble in your shoe, some new a$$hole, some bad guy who fails to fess up, or just something or other you WON'T PUT UP WITH and WON'T BE HAPPY ABOUT to mess it all up. We spend our lives recoiling from "bad things" and grasping for "good things", and we never find peace. Could it be that the universe is actually just fine as-is, and the problem is with us? That our minds enslave us in a false cycle of recoiling and grasping, and nothing's actually "good" or "bad"...everything simply IS? And that IS is nothing but complete and utter beauty and love if you readjust to let it be?
The universe just is what it is. Nothing makes you mad, you make yourself mad. Or annoyed. Or frustrated. Or anything. We are trapped by our need to see the universe arrange itself into the perfect configuration. And so peace is always in our future...a future that will never come. We're running a treadmill to nowhere, anguished, yearning, and in bitter bitter pain, all caused internally by us.
Why not drop our issues? Why not just leave the damned universe alone and find peace just exactly as-is, and now rather than later? Later never comes!
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Edited by - Jim and His Karma on Feb 24 2006 12:16:12 PM |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Feb 24 2006 : 12:13:13 PM
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| I agree with you Jim.. I guess when I learn to float this will all seem so unnecessary. Thanks. |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Feb 24 2006 : 12:22:57 PM
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Shanti, I've been neurotically editing, so you may want to reread.
Your learning to float is also in the future. Your enlightenment is in the future. Nothing now but an emptiness of waiting and suffering while your mind waits for conditions to be right. Or.....? |
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Victor
USA
910 Posts |
Posted - Feb 24 2006 : 12:29:29 PM
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Jim, while you have a valid point your tone seems aggressive. Just wanted to point it out.
we are all at the level of understanding that we are and we are able to take in what we are able to take in at this moment. |
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Jim and His Karma
2111 Posts |
Posted - Feb 24 2006 : 1:22:19 PM
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Victor, I'm trying extremely hard to be of help (and I may well miss a plane because of the time I took). And I am indeed feeling aggressive....toward the pain Shanti's feeling. It pisses me off. A lot. I desperately want her to be happy. And that emotionally charged, passionate feeling stems from my bhakti, not from any sort of argumentativeness. If a person doesn't have that same feeling of being hugely fed up with their predicament, it's always going to be something that's chipped away at rather than thrown overboard. throwing your troubles overboard doesn't happen till you're fed up. I'm trying to psyche the reader up to being fed up.
There are places in the internet and in one's life one can go for gentle hand holding and cheery platitudes. And we all need that! But sometimes we need to see the desperate nature of the human predicament full force. I'm sorry if I failed to fully convey the love with which I directed that posting. i thought it was permeated with it. |
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How do you learn to forgive?
