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rkishan
USA
102 Posts |
 Posted - Sep 17 2010 : 12:31:17 AM
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Over the years, I tried various methods of meditations and yoga practices including AYP. I could not continue the practice steadily for multiple reasons. The main reason being, the over sensitivity stated on one of the AYP lessons. Self pacing, changing methods, cutting down, etc. did not help much. Meditation only increased my irritability, anger, depression and restlessness. This seems strange because meditation is prescribed by some teachers and those who sell meditation techniques in mass scales as "secret mantras!" (like Transcendental Meditation, Art Of Living, Deepak Chopra) as a cure for restlessness, irritability, anger, depression etc.
After reading some other books on this topic and generally about meditation and advanced yogic practices, I began to wonder whether everyone is ready to Meditate. I know that AYP is started on the premise that meditation is the best way to start for those who want to progress spiritually. At least this is my understanding.
I see many other traditional teachers (Like B.K.S. Iyengar, Satguru Sivaya Subramuniya Swami, Sri Chandrasekarendra Saraswati - Renowned late Sankaracharya of Kanchi peetham) insisting that a lot of ground work through karma yoga (service without any expectation or result), bhakti yoga, yamas, niyamas and other qualifications are needed before proceeding to Meditation. It has been said by many traditional teachers that without proper preparation, entering into meditation can not only bear no fruits, on the other hand it can be harmful. We can even see that Patanjali the author of yoga sutras has specified many qualifications to enter meditation.
Satguru Sivaya Subramuniyaswami explains this very well on his book , "Merging with Shiva", Chapter 23. Following is the quote from the book and here is the link for that page,
http://www.himalayanacademy.com/tak...nscript.html
(Many of their resources and books are free online in their site http://www.himalayanacademy.com)
quote:
--By Satguru Sivaya Subramuniya Swami on "Merging with Shiva" chapter 23, "...Therefore, a good character expressed day by day within the individual who is freed from anger and from contentious mental arguments is a central foundation for the practice of yoga.
One without such purity should not practice japa yoga lest he awaken the knowledge of his imperfections which are better to keep veiled. For knowing such could send him into states of remorse, early repentance -- which means being penitent before one has the stability to take on the reaction of such a momentous discovery and undertaking. To meditate, one must be free from anger, jealousy and contention. Karma yoga should be practiced by the devotee prior to this to smooth out all character flaws. Sivathondu -- which is another word for karma yoga -- service to Siva, is the platform for japa yoga.
Those who are victims to episodes of anger, to pangs of jealousy or to periods of fear should not meditate and should not perform japa. They should perform Sivathondu, attend group meditations and group pranayama sessions. This is because they must first be lifted up into the muladhara chakra and above. They are living below it and must raise their consciousness in order to proceed deeply into themselves. It is the group itself in this case that will lift the individual who cannot easily lift himself. This process should be guided by a strong-minded, compassionate moderator......
.....There are two classes of mantras, not powerful and powerful, meaning potentially dangerous. The only danger that a powerful mantra could have is opening a person to himself. The problem is not with the mantra, but with what is inside the individual when the chakras open and he can see his karmas of the past and his impending karmas of the future. That's why a mantra is carefully given, like a medical prescription. You don't give two aspirins to a baby. You give a half of one, or a quarter. And just as a child's physical body takes years to grow up, so do the mind and emotions. If the early adult years are put into training and purification through karma yoga, bhakti yoga and study of Vedanta, then there are no troubles on the path to enlightenment. To turn on a light in a dark room with a flick of a switch is quite a shock to the darkness of the room itself. Would we want this to happen within the individual on the path? No. We want to turn up the dimmer very slowly so he or she can gradually adjust to the brightness that was there all the time."
The same thought is echoed by many other great teachers, especially the ones that do not sell meditation on a mass scale as "be all and cure all". On the other side we see organizations like the TM, "Art of Living", Deepak Chopra, Isha Yoga, Nithyananda, etc. etc. (Many are coming out each day) propagating meditation and advanced yoga as a "cure all" for everything. Some of these organizations are very aggressive in promoting their methods and even criticizing other paths and methods. They are run like any other multi-billion dollar business organizations and the chief gurus look like the CEOs to me. They are as ruthless as the CEOs of the business world in promoting their product and fighting with the competition in the market place. The difference is that the CEOs of business world does not want everyone to worship them, but these gurus do.
Coming back to the topic, my essential question is, are we all ready for meditation? Should meditation be the first practice for spiritual seekers of all levels? In my personal experience, I found out what Sivaya Subramuniya Swami has told to be the truth. I feel that I awakened and magnified the imperfections and this did send me to remorse, repentance, irritability, anger and many other problems.
From my own experiences and from reading the text quoted above by Sivaya Subramuniya Swami and many other great teachers, I feel that meditation can be harmful to many (the majority, how many have overcome anger?), if they are not properly prepared and did their ground work. This is just my opinion and I am a beginner and not an authority on yoga. But my personal experiences have proved the statements of the many traditional teachers to be true verbatim. I feel that instead of progress, I have regressed over the years because of starting practices like meditation, kriya yoga, pranayamas, etc. without proper ground work before. I am clearly not ready for these.
I know that this might go against the belief of AYP, that it is most effective to start with meditation, for those who wants to progress spiritually. I know that it is not forced on anyone here. But it is advocated nevertheless.
In my case, I stopped all meditation, pranayamas and other advanced yoga practices. Now, I do physical exercises, moderate asana practice and karma yoga (serving others without any results or expectations whenever possible) for the past few months. This seems to be helping so far.
So, let me repeat my question. Should meditation be the initial practice for all seekers who want to progress spiritually? Could it be possible that spiritual seekers are on different levels and many are not ready for meditation or advanced yoga practices. I know that when I am ready, I can come back here and all the things in AYP are going to be extremely valuable to me. On the other hand, is it wise to advocate a powerful meditation technique as a starting practice for all spiritual seekers on a open internet forum?
This post is not to criticize the methods of AYP. I have learned numerous things from AYP in the last 5 years. In fact, the knowledge that I am not ready for meditation and other advanced yogic practices came only from AYP and its forums. I have immense respect and gratitude for Yogani and the AYP community.
Since AYP is an open forum, I hope that we have the liberty to discuss this doubt of mine. I would love to hear the thoughts of fellow AYP yogis and from Yogani.
Here are some more thoughts from Satguru Sivaya Subramuniya Swami from on his book , "Merging with Shiva", Chapter 23 on people's desire to meeditate and about the Gurus who make their living by selling mantras:
quote:
--By Satguru Sivaya Subramuniya Swami on "Merging with Shiva" chapter 23 "Many people want initiation because they want to get away from something. They want something to cure their ills. Others don't know what they want. They are disturbed, distraught with their prarabdha karmas, and they want relief. What they should be given is Saiva Siddhanta -- a comprehensive path of accomplishment. They should not be given a high-powered mantra that will, when it opens the mind, cause more frustration and disturbance from what the seeker sees. But once given such initiation -- having no tools, mentally, emotionally or physically, to conquer the past karmas that the experiential emotions are intensifying (which should have been conquered through karma yoga and bhakti yoga) -- the seeker falls into despair. It is the conscientious guru's responsibility to provide an on-going, progressive training prior to initiation and to continue it afterwards. Those who make their living by selling mantras would be considered fraudulent by traditional Hindu standards."
Okay, after questioning some of AYP's methods based on my personal experiences and the knowledge gained from the books written by some traditional teachers, I also need to point out that the virtues of AYP, like sharing/serving the community without any expectation of results, keeping the knowledge open to all, spreading the knowledge of all aspects of yoga, are extolled by many traditions.
Following are again the words of Satguru Sivaya Subramuniya Swami, which is in 100% alignment with the fundamental philosophy of AYP and the infamous words that Yogani repeats at the end of all his lessons, "The guru is in you!".
quote:
--By Satguru Sivaya Subramuniya Swami on "Merging with Shiva" chapter 10, "By learning to understand, we cease to be a personality leaning upon our fellow man and falling into disappointment when he lets us down. No, we must lean on no one but ourselves, our own spine, and not be the reactionary victims of the ups and downs of the world around us or the people around us. Then we will gain our freedom from the instinctive forces we were born into and attain sufficient emotional maturity to love and bless the world, no matter what our circumstances may be.""
Regards,
Ram.
Om Gam Ganapathaye Namaha
Om Sharavanabhava |
Edited by - rkishan on Sep 17 2010 10:07:48 AM |
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yogani
USA
5242 Posts |
Posted - Sep 17 2010 : 10:55:32 AM
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Hi Ram:
Thank you for your sincere sharing.
Sorry you have had such difficulties with meditation over the years. You are wise to self-pace and adjust your practices as necessary for best results with comfort. That is the suggestion for everyone from the beginning.
I would take issue with one comment you made above:
It has not been the experience in the AYP community that the "majority" of people are not ready for deep meditation. While there have been some who have had difficulty, it has been a small minority, based on reports we have received over the years. We have been working to address those who are over-sensitive, as you know, culminating in these three lessons that address both ends of the sensitivity scale:
On the Range of Sensitivities: http://www.aypsite.org/365.html
On Under-Sensitive: http://www.aypsite.org/366.html
On Over-Sensitive: http://www.aypsite.org/367.html
These have been aimed at finding solutions for those who wish to meditate, who may have particular sensitivity issues.
In some cases, meditation of any kind may not be appropriate at all for a time. But this can change in a flash. There are cases here of people who were under or over sensitive, and then it changed suddenly (or in a relatively short time) with a blockage dissolving.
"Unfathomable are the portents of karma."
Since most do derive benefits from deep meditation with minimal disruption, I will continue to suggest it as a starting point, simply because it is a fast path for most, and that is what people want. For those it is disruptive for, self-pacing and alternate approaches will continue to be suggested.
With so many benefiting, I think it would be counter-productive to go back (here in AYP) to the kind of "gated" systems of practice that have contributed to the lack of spiritual progress in humanity over the centuries, including endless frustration for the many who have sought effective paths of practice to move forward according to their bhakti. It has been to address this very situation that AYP was created -- laying all the options on the table, putting the practitioner in charge, and not a third party whose fixed ideas may be wholly inappropriate in any given situation.
Everyone deserves the opportunity to find out for themselves if they are ready for powerful spiritual practices or not. Those who are over-sensitive will find out soon enough, and they should step back according to the advice given in the AYP writings. The risks are minimal if the self-pacing guidelines are followed. There are plenty of alternative approaches available, which you have pointed to in your sharing above.
And as you say, when any practitioner is ready for more, it is here. 
We are experiencing a paradigm shift from teacher-directed practice to self-directed practice. It has been new territory with risks and benefits. The risks are associated mainly with each person's ability to take responsibility when using powerful tools. It has been successful beyond what I could have predicted, and that is a testament to the capability of human beings to make good use of tools that are openly available. This lesson provides further thoughts on the matter of responsibility in practices: http://www.aypsite.org/217.html
Wishing you all the best on your path. Continue to practice wisely, and enjoy!
The guru is in you.
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Ananda
3115 Posts |
Posted - Sep 17 2010 : 12:45:55 PM
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Much thanks for the great post Rkishan, and even though i might be on the same side as you and have recently stopped all practices... I still believe in AYP, it might not be for all but it's great for most plus there are some who used to abuse drugs and aclohol and got much better because of AYP.
Love,
Ananda |
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rkishan
USA
102 Posts |
Posted - Sep 17 2010 : 3:44:38 PM
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Dear Yogani,
Thanks for your kind response to my doubts and questions.
When I said "majority", I did not mean the majority in the AYP community. I agree with you that the majority of the AYP community must be ready to meditate and they may even be ready to do all the other advanced practices of yoga taught here. I myself have been a part of the AYP community for 4 to 5 years now, even though I did not contribute much in terms of sharing. I noticed that many persons that come here have been part of other schools like kriya yoga, TM etc. Many that come to AYP are practitioners of yoga for years, decades or life times. These people that find AYP, come here (and stay here) have the tendency (vasanas) built in themselves for spiritual progress and yoga. So their prarabdha karma obviously pulls them to AYP and to other places that are conducive to their progress.
On the other hand, the "majority", that I meant was the majority of the Earth's population. As we are all in different stages of evolution, it seems to me that only a very few minority are attracted to spiritual progress and the real yoga. Yoga in western world means the asana or posture classes. I see that a whole lot of people are attracted to that to keep their body in shape and for physical fitness, which is good. But a very few minority only have the desire to find their real nature and make spiritual progress. I think these people are attracted to AYP and come here. Obviously the majority out of them are ready for meditation and other advanced techniques.
But since internet is open wide, people like me who are not quite ready yet also stumble upon AYP and become part of that community. And when I try these practices, I go up some times and fall down at other times and mostly struggle with these practices. As I stated in the previous post the end result seems like backwards (who knows?).
I understand where you are coming from, when you stated, ""gated" systems of practice that have contributed to the lack of spiritual progress in humanity over the centuries, including endless frustration for the many who have sought effective paths of practice to move forward according to their bhakti."
I agree that knowledge should be open to all. It should be shared openly without any inhibitions like how it is shared in AYP. For that end, the whole AYP community including me are grateful to you. No one should be restricted. Again, the renowned late Sankaracharya of Kanchi Sri Chandrasekerendra Saraswati has stated that all yoga techniques should be open and theoretically written and available to all. However he cautioned everyone to not start advanced practices on their own before the fundamental foundations are in place. The books about open heart surgery are available. There is no need to restrict the books or the theoretical knowledge, there are no secrets here. However if I read one and attempted a open heart surgery myself without proper education or preparation, it may be fatal. Similarly there should not be any secrets in yoga also. Those who claim of secret mantras and secret techniques are out there with ulterior motives for their own gains. Knowledge should be open. However it should also be clearly stated that what is the foundation needed to apply the knowledge. We need to know the basics and make sure that the foundation is right and strong before we start building big structures.
I take issue with your statement that the gated systems of practice have contributed to the lack of spiritual progress in humanity over the centuries. There are some crazy yoga groups and other selfish teachers who come to the west, and these groups wanted to hide and keep everything secret for their own benefits. This secrecy for their own personal monetary benefits is a new phenomenon that started after yoga started spreading to the west. This does not mean that the spiritual progress in humanity was affected in any way due to one system or other. I feel that no one can stop a true spiritual seeker, if he had the burning desire to realize the truth. Some selfish persons who called themselves gurus did create a lot of frustration among seekers. To that end, AYP and other systems like Swami Satyananda Saraswati's Bihar school of yoga, The Chinmaya Mission, The Himalayan Academy and many others share the knowledge of yoga and Vedanta freely.
A true seeker can easily find the real nature of a yogic system, school or tradition. People who want quick fixes are the ones taken over by organizations that are surrounded by secrecy, etc. Further, I believe that even when these "gated systems" existed there were possibilities for the true seekers to progress if they really wanted to. Paul Brunton went to great lengths before he found Ramana Maharishi in Tiruvannamalai. Sivaya Subramuniya Swami did find his guru Sage Yogaswami in Sri Lanka. No one can halt the progress of Sri Ramakrishna even though he acted crazily many times. I can not come into terms with your words that, ""gated systems" of practice that have contributed to the lack of spiritual progress in humanity over the centuries". Krishna said in gita, that everything that has happened is good, everything that is happening is good and everything that will happen is also good. So, I can not agree that some systems or practices halted the progress of the humanity over centuries. I believe that humanity is progressing as it should and as directed by its creator. I can not believe that there was ever a time when there was a lack of progress due to some systems. If some systems did halt the progress, may be that was how it was supposed to be. And that is also good, so that systems like AYP can come out.
In any case, lot of gratitude to you for providing an open forum where we can discuss and question the very methods of that system itself. This is the basis of vedanta and the sanatana dharma. The upanishads and the gita were written in this spirit as a open discussion. In the true spirit of sanatana dharma, the student has the right to question and challenge the teacher till he understands. It is great to see that even today AYP works on that same spirit. This shows the nature of a true system. The systems that promote secrecy normally censor even any tiny comments made against them. Some even threaten their followers if they question or provide alternate thoughts. They lead by fear.
Again, when I said majority is not ready for meditation, I did not mean the majority of the AYP community. I still feel that the majority of this world may not be ready for meditation or advanced yogic practices. I personally have to go through some karma yoga (even this is easier said than done, to serve without any expectation of result!!!) to first cleanse myself. As Sivaya Subramuniya Swami states we do not give two aspirins to a baby. That does not mean we can not sell aspirins over the counter in stores. Similarly, we can share all the yogic knowledge openly on the forums, like how we sell aspirins on pharmacies. But aspirin has a label of warning and does come in different flavors. One for babies, another one for teens and one more for adult etc. Since AYP is out there open on the internet, it may be beneficial if there was a "label of warning" before the beginning of the lessons, saying who is suitable/qualified -- the foundation that is needed -- to start meditation and advanced yogic practices. This might help those who are not ready yet. If the over sensitivity, under sensitivity and other warnings were stated before the lessons, it might help people like me who are not ready for these practices yet, but have a burning desire to progress. Some might read the labels and back off before diving in with their desire.
Who knows, I agree with your statement that karma works mysteriously. I had a strange spiritual experience today just before I composed this post. It was unlike anything that I experienced before. I was taking a short nap and I am not sure if I was sleeping. Suddenly I see some one dancing, initially I do not know who it is. Then there was an intuition that it was Shiva. The person does not look like Shiva, but looked more like a clown! Then this person was dancing and playing drums. The drum beats, I hear on the whole top of my head. It is like every nerve on the top of my head is alive and beating. Literally the top of my head is the drum. Then I woke up. I was in bed in a state of utter shock for a while and then came back to normal. I do not know what this means. If you have any idea what this might mean, please share with me.
Regards,
Ram.
Om Gam Ganapathaye Namaha
Om Sharavanabhava |
Edited by - rkishan on Sep 17 2010 4:15:24 PM |
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rkishan
USA
102 Posts |
Posted - Sep 17 2010 : 3:45:52 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Ananda
Much thanks for the great post Rkishan, and even though i might be on the same side as you and have recently stopped all practices... I still believe in AYP, it might not be for all but it's great for most plus there are some who used to abuse drugs and aclohol and got much better because of AYP.
Love,
Ananda
Dear Ananda,
I still believe in AYP also and consider myself part of this community/family.
Regards,
Ram.
Om Gam Ganapathaye Namaha
Om Sharavanabhava |
Edited by - rkishan on Sep 17 2010 3:55:07 PM |
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yogani
USA
5242 Posts |
Posted - Sep 17 2010 : 5:37:11 PM
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Hi Ram:
There are at least as many beginners utilizing the AYP writings as experienced practitioners. I have not noticed more who are sensitive to deep meditation coming from any particular level of experience, or lack of it.
While it is yet to be proven conclusively, I believe that you could teach these practices to any group of people anywhere in the world, and the profile of results (and sensitivities) among the people would be essentially the same. This is what we are seeing so far with a wide sample of practitioners across the world. Time will tell if the results continue that way.
People come to AYP for all sorts of reasons, ranging from purely spiritual, to personal health and happiness issues. There is no one profile that fits everyone who comes here. AYP practitioners represent a cross-section of every kind of personality, level of experience, cultural and religious background. So it is not a good idea to generalize on what kind of person uses AYP, and what spiritual advantage they may have over any other person anywhere else. The human nervous system is what we all have in common.
Btw, sensitivity to meditation and other practices is not a symptom of spiritual underdevelopment. It can be a high conductivity in the nervous system, which is an advanced condition indicating a certain kind of inner purification, but with some imbalance that is lingering from who knows when or why (karma).
All of these things can be worked through with a methodical approach, and with persistence and patience.
Carry on!
The guru is in you.
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riptiz
United Kingdom
741 Posts |
Posted - Sep 19 2010 : 06:43:14 AM
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Hi Rkishan,
If we waited until we had no anger etc as stated by Satguru Sivaya Subramuniya Swami then nobody would ever meditate.Meditation on it's own is not a cure all for everything which is why I believe we should embrace all limbs of yoga. IMHO I believe that the yamas and niyamas are just as important as taught by most spiritual guides in history. Christ,Bhuddha,Mohammed etc.
There are approximately several 100 of thousands self proclaimed guru's in India according to research and I am sure many are jumping on the bandwagon to make money.Perhaps just as many are not and are in fact genuine.
As you state and my experience tells me,all students should have the option of support and guidance NOT only for meditation but for any spiritual practices.
My guru has stated he does not wish for fame or fortune because he knows that the PR people would restict access to his students and as of now we can get time with him on several occasions daily when we vist him on the ashram.I and others have been fortunate to have travelled with him also to various occasions.
Inner guidance does allow the 'guru to be in you' but the reality is that many on here regard Yogani as their guru whether he wishes it to be so or not even to the point of stating that he is fully enlightened,something which I don't believe he has ever claimed or I doubt he would announce as he wishes to remain in the background.This forum is a support system and guidance that is required as I stated earlier and which your quotes support.
I suggest if you find mantra meditation to be too powerful, that you might try a less powerful method.
I am not making judgement on anybody here or your statements, just my thoughts on this matter.
L&L
Dave |
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Clear White Light
USA
229 Posts |
Posted - Sep 19 2010 : 08:47:51 AM
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I think this is a sort of "Damned if you do, damned if you don't" scenario. Either access to spiritual knowledge and practices should be restricted so they don't fall into the hands of those that aren't "ready" for them, effectively saving them from themselves.. or they are open and available to all. Either option has consequences, however I think the consequences of the former far exceed the latter. It may be true that sometimes people approach things like meditation without a certain readiness (whatever that means..). However, if this is the tendency of the person, I think this tendency will come through in all areas of their life. We can only do so much to protect a person from their own self.
I relate to what you say when you mention that meditation seemed to magnify your faults and imperfections. This was my experience as well. However, I don't see this as a negative thing. Is anything REALLY being magnified, or are we just seeing it more truly? Perceiving more deeply what was already there? Perhaps some of us NEED our "flaws" to be magnified so that we can become aware of them. I see this as part of the process of coming to know who we really are. You have to be willing to accept both the good and the bad in ourselves. Meditation may very well bring some undesirable tendencies out to the surface, very much like psychotherapy would. But if they are not ever brought out into the full light of awareness, how are we to ever deal with them? Not to say that meditation is the ONLY way to do this. Certainly it isn't. But I think it is safe to say that it is among the most effective ways. It just comes down to each person's responsibility to evaluate the methods they choose to employ, and the effect that they have on their life. |
Edited by - Clear White Light on Sep 19 2010 12:48:58 PM |
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devrim
Thailand
33 Posts |
Posted - Sep 20 2010 : 10:33:29 AM
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hello Rkishan, i can understand your concerns about starting with the DM first, when i first started yoga i had the impression that i should start at the beginning and that meditation as a practice was way down the line, 'when i am ready' was my meditation practice for many years
you wrote in your post quote:
I still feel that the majority of this world may not be ready for meditation or advanced yogic practices. I personally have to go through some karma yoga (even this is easier said than done, to serve without any expectation of result!!!) to first cleanse myself.
the cleanest/purest part of you is inside you. now after some years of yoga practice i feel that everyone is ready. many people may not know they are but if you have had that inner calling, you are already on a path towards that absolute, bliss inside of all of us.
i believe that the AYP system is quick, efficient and safe system to bring gradually brings out the best in us. whether you are doing karma yoga,or deep meditation any action done with love and devotion towards your highest ideal and with the necessary self-pacing is an advanced yoga practice. So if DM feels no good its great to hear that you are going to continue with karma yoga, this is self-pacing, when you feel comfortable to change gears you can always return to a meditation practice.
i hope this helps in some way. |
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Yuri
Russia
37 Posts |
Posted - Sep 22 2010 : 08:05:14 AM
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As this is my first post, let me first of all thank Yogani and AYP community for creating such a wonderful place to get/share/exchange information. The atmosphere here is very friendly, and I take pleasure from reading most of the posts in the forum.
Hi Rkishan
Your question is also my question (which I ponder over a lot), so let me offer you my current practical answer to this question
1. Yes, I think that meditation is not (and should not be) the first practice on the path. Yogani starts his lessons in AYP with deep meditation, but AYP contains the word "advanced". Which may imply meaning that there should be the practice before AYP (if this is true or not, only Yogani can say). So, let's discuss what is before AYP.
2. Carma-yoga (service to others and refining of the self) is very important. I think it shall be done each day both by the beginners like we, and up to very advanced people/saints. As Don Juan said to Castaneda: "If you are not talented you shall practice 24h a day; if you are talented - then 23h a day is enough". But I am not sure it will help against depression and anger, at least not quickly. May be during 10 or 15 lives it will help
3. From my observation both on myself and others, I think that the first and basic point shall be getting balance, energy and internal resource. Internal resource is a key to practice; if one does not have the resource, one can't proper meditate (and also live). Now, we all are unbalanced from the birth (imbalance of doshas, inborn deseases), and later on we add more imbalance during life. For example, one cause of anger may be gall bladder problems. Another - too strong Pitta dosha (fire).
4. However, some people are more balanced, and some people are less. When imbalance is not very strong, meditation can be practised, and it can even serve as a balance and resource itself. But when the imbalance is strong and in the beginning of the way - meditation may worsen the situation.
So first of all we shall study the ways of coming into balance and getting enough energy for our practice. And we shall eliminate those ways/people/habbits, which take energy from us. Through body practices (like yoga-therapy, or any other) and carma-yoga (but not serving others, but serving ourselves, stalking (Castaneda' word)).
5. When Yogani says that 5 min. hatha-yoga is enough for him - that's a joke. This just means that he is very balanced. Average session of yoga-therapy to have effect shall be in my opinion 30-45 min length. For medium cases of imbalance. Also all hatha yoga routines shall be individual.
What I mean: if for somebody 5 min is enough - he is lucky. For not-so-lucky, it may demand much greater efforts.
It's not so easy to implement, but IMHO this is the only right way to practice. If internal resource is difficult to get from within, then some psychotherapy or medicine may be needed. Or participation in "alive" (I mean non-Internet) "satsang" groups. Or changing life style.
These are my 2 cents. Wish you all the success.
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Sep 22 2010 : 08:31:49 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Yuri
1. Yes, I think that meditation is not (and should not be) the first practice on the path. Yogani starts his lessons in AYP with deep meditation, but AYP contains the word "advanced". Which may imply meaning that there should be the practice before AYP (if this is true or not, only Yogani can say). So, let's discuss what is before AYP.
Hi Yuri,
Welcome to the AYP forums.
I just want to comment on one thing you have written.
Yogani does suggest we start with meditation and I completely agree with him. Till you build stillness, anything else/everything else is a mechanical process. When there is stillness, anything/everything is a spiritual process. So starting out from day one with meditation, right from where you are is the best practice to start with. There is no right way to meditate or wrong way to meditate... there is only following the procedure of sitting for 20min repeating "i am' in your mind, losing the mantra and coming back to it.
http://www.aypsite.org/149.html
quote:
Traditionally, the eight limbs have been taken in sequence. The rationale has been that people have to learn to behave themselves and prepare through strict codes of conduct before they can begin doing more direct spiritual practices. Once they know how to behave rightly, they can begin with the body (asanas), and, later, work their way in through the breath (pranayama), and, finally, be ready for concentration (dharana), meditation (dhyana), and pure bliss consciousness (samadhi). With a traditional approach like this it can be a long road to hoe, especially if a guru (in the flesh) holds his disciples to the highest standards of performance each step along the way. Even Patanjali had this sequence of practice in mind when he wrote the yoga sutras.
That part of it (going through the eight limbs in sequence over a long period of time) doesn't work very well. This has become widely recognized in the yoga community, and Patanjali must have known it too. Maybe in his time it wasn't so easy to be jump-starting people with advanced yoga practices like deep meditation and spinal breathing the way we can do it today.
Over the years different teachers have jumped directly into the eight limbs in different places. Some start with asanas and others with pranayama. Some focus first on devotion and then jump to meditation, or something else. Some jump straight into meditation, and then work their way back through the limbs. As you know, these lessons are of the latter approach. We start with deep meditation, and then head into pranayama, physical techniques, and so on, keeping a good awareness of the role of bhakti/desire all the way through.
The reason it is called "Advanced":
Excerpt form : Eight Limbs of Yoga - The Structure and Pacing of
Self-Directed Spiritual Practice
quote:
But this does not imply the impossibility of
applying simple means for taking practical advantage
of the complex inner workings of nature. We see this
occurring all around us – the mastery of unseen
principles with easy-to-use methodologies, or control
levers. Consider the examples of modern aviation,
biotechnology, computers, telecommunications, and a
host of other advanced applied sciences. We call
these fields advanced. Yet, how difficult is it to
operate a cell phone, a computer, or walk onto an
airplane and travel across the continent in a few
hours? These applications of complex principles in
nature are advanced because they have been
simplified for practical application.
This is what we mean when we say advanced
yoga practices. The practices will only be advanced if
they are easy to use while stimulating complex
processes within us for the benefit of our spiritual
evolution. If they do, then they are advanced. If they
do not, or can be made even simpler and more
effective, then we will continue to seek out better
ways for promoting the process of human spiritual
transformation. That is the never-ending forward
march of applied knowledge. It is the same in yoga as
in any other field.
Hope this helps clarify why AYP is called Advanced Yoga Practices. |
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Yuri
Russia
37 Posts |
Posted - Sep 25 2010 : 02:58:50 AM
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Hi Shanti
Thanks for your explanation.
But I stick to my position, which is different from yours/Yogani's. Shortly, it boils down to the point that meditation is benefical only after one has some minimum of internal resource, balance and grounding. If not, meditation may worsen the situation. So IMHO meditation is step No 2.
By the way, also when the resource is lost for whatever reason, sometimes I feel good to stop practicing meditation, search for the resource and then continue meditation. |
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rkishan
USA
102 Posts |
Posted - Sep 25 2010 : 11:32:00 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Yuri
Hi Shanti
Thanks for your explanation.
But I stick to my position, which is different from yours/Yogani's. Shortly, it boils down to the point that meditation is benefical only after one has some minimum of internal resource, balance and grounding. If not, meditation may worsen the situation. So IMHO meditation is step No 2.
By the way, also when the resource is lost for whatever reason, sometimes I feel good to stop practicing meditation, search for the resource and then continue meditation.
Yuri,
Based on my personal experiences over the last decade, I agree with your statements completely. Some foundation, discipline and inner clarity is needed as Sivaya Subramuniya Swami states before embarking into advanced yogic practices.
Not one or two, but hundreds of great yogic masters, over a period of thousands of years have insisted that some ground work is needed before starting advanced yogic practices and meditation. We can not simply dismiss all of their insights, based on our recent modern experience and experiments over a period of may be 10 to 50 years.
Even a century is a very small tiny period of time, when compared with the time line of yoga and it's progress over millenniums. I have great respect towards Yogani and AYP for various reasons. As I stated before the knowledge should be open to all. But there should be necessary precautions before starting advanced yogic practices. The fundamentals and the qualifications needed to practice raja yoga should be laid out clearly before it is advocated to others. The dangers involved should also be explained clearly. This is just my opinion.
I feel that each one is in a different stage of evolution based on their previously accumulated karmas. Therefore, it is very hard for me to accept the following statement of Yogani:
Yogani - "I believe that you could teach these practices to any group of people anywhere in the world, and the profile of results (and sensitivities) among the people would be essentially the same."
I think there is a great risk when we teach advanced yogic practices to 'any group of people' before analyzing whether the necessary foundations are in place. They might possibly cross the limits. They might cross the line even before they realize the need to 'self pace', due to the delayed reactions of advanced practices. Swami Satyananda Saraswati, Satguru Sivaya Subramuniya Swami and many other masters have written that they have seen many people in lunatic asylums in the west, due to premature kundalini awakenings and other energy imbalances.
AYP is just a baby, when compared with the time line of the various venerable yogic traditions. But, lately those venerable traditions are also not doing so well in the last couple of centuries. There are only very few authentic satgurus and it is not easy to find them. Most of the gurus who come to the west and sell yoga/meditation in a mass scale are just business people. I don't think these gurus care about the welfare or outcome of teaching advanced yogic practices to the masses, as long as the fee (which is called donation!!) is paid. Compared to these crazy gurus and their inflated egos, I would favor AYP on any day.
I see many people here hailing AYP is the best and balanced approach to yoga. Only time will tell what is the best approach. As I said, the time-line of AYP compared with the time line of other venerable yogic traditions is very small. I would wait for few centuries at the least, and analyze the results of AYP in a systematic way, before making statements like 'this is the best and balanced approach'. The success rates claimed by some in 5 to 10 years does not make any great impression on me. And this is an online community, who knows what is going on with whom after they started these practices. Many may not come back to report the effects, when they are negative. They might just move along to something else. For those to whom AYP works best (I think this group must have had some ground work done before, either in this life or previous life times), it may seem that this is the best approach to yoga.
I believe in the sanatana dharma's fundamental belief that there are many valid paths to truth. Each one can follow what works out best for them. I do not agree when some one makes a blanket statement that their path is the 'best and the balanced path' among all.
Regards,
Ram. |
Edited by - rkishan on Sep 25 2010 11:52:21 AM |
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yogani
USA
5242 Posts |
Posted - Sep 25 2010 : 1:35:58 PM
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Hi All:
This is really a debate about who is in the majority -- those who can pick up with deep meditation at the start and experience benefits without major disruptions, versus those who may not. It is also a debate about whether humanity as a whole has been advancing in its receptivity to the causes and effects found in advanced spiritual practices like deep meditation and spinal breathing pranayama.
The modern view is that those who can benefit from these practices are in the majority, and that there is a rising receptivity in the whole of humanity resulting from the increasingly widespread use of spiritual practices around the world over the past century.
The traditional view is that nothing has changed in the evolution of humanity over the centuries, and that everyone must be pre-qualified before receiving advanced practices by passing through the preliminary wickets of yoga (yama, niyama, asana, etc.).
Obviously, AYP represents the modern view. For the perceived minority who may be over-sensitive to deep meditation with mantra (for whatever reason), many measures are offered to balance and protect against potential hazards (primarily energy overloads). So whether sensitivity is an issue in the beginning, or later on (it too can happen), ample means are available for dealing with it in a self-directed manner, and moving ahead. For long-time meditators (perhaps the most sensitive of all, while at the same time largely unfazed by the ups and downs in life), the maxim is "less is more." This has been covered in the later lessons.
The truth is, sensitivity to inner spiritual processes is not the primary issue. Nearly everyone will experience it at one time or other along their path. The real issue is education. With good education, all challenges along the path can be navigated. Without good education, most will shrink from the path, and the journey will be left to the very few, which has been the history of humanity up until now. In this new information age, we find ourselves in a position to change that for future generations.
We must do something to advance along our path. What that something is will depend on the person -- not only their capacity, but also their desire (bhakti). The view in AYP is that how to proceed is an individual choice. For this, many tools have been provided, which, in the vast majority of cases, have been used with responsibility.
This debate about the spiritual readiness of humanity could go on for 100 years (it probably will). Whatever the truth may be, no one can deny that we are living in a time when increasing information about spiritual practices and their effects is changing the face of spiritual teaching everywhere. It is incumbent on all of us to deal with that in a responsible manner. However much humanity may be the same, the information available has expanded dramatically. Like it or not, that is changing the game.
Meanwhile, who will be benefiting as we debate the readiness of humanity for this? Turning it all back to the old ways would be a high price to pay for those in every corner of the world who, however many they may be, are ready to move ahead with advanced practices. We can't go back, because the cat is out of the bag. We can only go forward. The only thing that could stop it would be the demise of the internet.
Clearly, one size in practices does not fit all, even though there is a tendency in humans to impress upon others that what we believe is the best for everyone. Accordingly, I have some concern that the heavy hand of tradition is beginning to over-step itself here.
Keep in mind that AYP is an open system, which means anyone can use it, or not use it, according to personal preference. If it does not work in a particular case, then the seeker is encouraged to keep looking until they find an approach that does work for them, no matter where it may be found. From the AYP point of view, there are no limitations in this. But do not expect the AYP system of practices to throw itself out the window while promoting freedom of choice. It is a baseline teaching, and the baseline will be preserved as best as possible.
In seeking out alternatives, whether they be traditional or not, do not try and redesign the AYP baseline system in the process. That will not work. It will only lead sincere seekers into confusion, and be helping no one.
If alternate approaches are being proposed, such discussions are welcome here, but ought not be at the expense of clarity about what AYP is, and they should be conducted in the "Other Systems" forum category, where it will be clear that they are something different from the AYP baseline system, and not attempting to discredit the ongoing work that is occurring here.
Fair enough?
The guru is in you.
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riptiz
United Kingdom
741 Posts |
Posted - Sep 25 2010 : 1:58:51 PM
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Hi Yuri,
This disagreement on practices can encompass many other systems as well. I have read of very few people discussing the for or against for Tai Chi for instance but nevertheless people get chi sickness from these practices.Would you suggest they stop practicing also even if they do not use any of the AYP or yogic techniques?Better to find good instruction, support and balance in practice than eliminate all chances of moving forward on a spiritual path to a better life.
L&L
Dave |
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swaha
Lebanon
88 Posts |
Posted - Sep 25 2010 : 4:14:34 PM
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| unless one moves through confusion, clarity never comes... |
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rkishan
USA
102 Posts |
Posted - Sep 25 2010 : 10:17:08 PM
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Dear Yogani,
What you have said is fair. More than fair. I would agree that this topic should be moved to the "Other systems" section of the AYP forums, or even removed if you think it is counter productive to the practitioners of AYP.
You are doing some great work here from which I myself have personally benefited in more than one way in the past years. I should even go the extend to say that AYP has had a profound impact on my life and my perspectives. The practice of amaroli alone has brought about so many changes. Your great book on "Diet Shatkarmas and Amaroli", introduced me to this practice.
It is not my intention to interfere or obstruct the work here in any way. I have been spreading the word about AYP and the great work done here to many of my friends and associates in the past years. I think I am confused in many ways due to some imbalances and challenges that I had to face on my path. This has recently made some strong changes in my perspective favoring the traditional ways. I guess I sounded them out very loudly here in a challenging manner. I understand that this can be counter productive to the great service and work done here.
I respect the ways of AYP and your work. Even if I have some differing views, I still consider myself part of AYP and would like to contribute and help rather than to obstruct in any way.
As I stated before, I have profound gratitude to your work and to the AYP community.
Regards,
Ram.
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Edited by - rkishan on Sep 29 2010 12:16:39 AM |
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Yuri
Russia
37 Posts |
Posted - Sep 26 2010 : 03:10:18 AM
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Hi Riptiz
No, this is not what I suggest.
What I suggest is that practitioners would put some time in analyzing their own disbalances and weak points before starting Kundalini practices. And that they would find the ways to deal with/correct these disbalances.
This is important not only for beginners. Yogani put exactly in his previous post what I was going to put: that sooner or later during practices almost everybody comes to the point of extra sensitivity. I would add also that a lot is coming to the point of lack of resource. In this period(s) our inborn (inherited) disbalances are becoming much stronger, and it's difficult to deal with them; so it's better to learn how to deal with them in advance.
What I mean that let's say I have a "weak link" in my system (kidneys, or liver, or backbone, or lack of internal fire, ...). But I live and don't notice it untill stress period. During stress this "weak link" collapses, and the result is lamentable. Such a stress by the way may be caused by overloading with "usual activity" (like somebody will start strenuous physical exrcises after long period of doing nothing). Special practices like Kundalini practices put a lot of stress, and this stress will come almost for sure, and it's better to find "weak links" and prepare beforehand.
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yogani
USA
5242 Posts |
Posted - Sep 26 2010 : 10:05:51 AM
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Hi rkishan:
This is a very informative discussion, and can be helpful to many. It is, however, mainly about alternative approaches, so we will move it to the "Other Systems" forum category. The discussion can continue there as desired.
Many thanks to everyone for contributing, and all the best on your chosen path!
The guru is in you.
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AYPforum
351 Posts |
Posted - Sep 26 2010 : 10:06:48 AM
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| Moderator note: Topic moved for better placement |
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Yuri
Russia
37 Posts |
Posted - Oct 02 2010 : 07:07:49 AM
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I reread my last post, and found out that it does not represent exactly what I think.
Really, I am for practicing meditation from the very beginning. Then self-analyse of it's effects shall be done. If meditation brings us to more desirable state of being more peaceful, balanced and grounded - fine. If however meditation increases anger or depression - then it shall be stopped and other practices (medicine and psychotherapy in the last resort) tried instead, or at least in parallel. It may bring harm in practising meditation for months with the hope that it will finally "go right". Or one shall quit the ordinary life with stresses, and make meditation the main part/goal of life activity (go to ashram, for example).
The key factor here is IMHO internal feeling: are we getting more balanced, or on the contrary more stressed because of the practice. We shall find the practice which will help us to live through stresses, and not one which brings stresses in addition to stresses of ordinary life
Hope, it's more clear now. Wish everybody the success on his way. |
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rkishan
USA
102 Posts |
Posted - Oct 02 2010 : 11:48:50 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Yuri
Really, I am for practicing meditation from the very beginning. Then self-analyse of it's effects shall be done. If meditation brings us to more desirable state of being more peaceful, balanced and grounded - fine. If however meditation increases anger or depression - then it shall be stopped and other practices (medicine and psychotherapy in the last resort) tried instead, or at least in parallel. It may bring harm in practising meditation for months with the hope that it will finally "go right".
Yuri,
Thanks for your clarification. My ideas about these things change from time to time. I totally agree with your statement, "If however meditation increases anger or depression - then it shall be stopped and other practices (medicine and psychotherapy in the last resort) tried instead, or at least in parallel."
When I said that my ideas change, the results that I derive from the practices are confusing sometimes. For a while I thought pranayama, japa, meditation etc, helped with anger or depression. It even seemed to work for a while before I added the Deep Meditation. Later I started feeling that meditation increases the anger-depression-anger cycles. In my case, whenever there is an excess of energy like anger, it is immediately followed by a low (depression), and vice versa. In-between these oscillating states, I remain centered also (many times). I want to increase the boundary of this 'center' where I stay balanced. Eventually the goal is to make this centered balance state a constant experience instead of oscillating between higher and lower states.
I said, "The results that I derive from the practices are confusing sometimes". This problem gets even more compounded when we see completely contradicting opinions from the great masters of yoga, that we look upon.
We know that AYP and Yogani is for meditation (In this link Yogani suggests that it is okay for people with depression to try deep meditation, http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....,iyengar,jim). AS I stated before traditional teachers, like Satguru Sivaya Subramuniya Swami, B.K.S Iyengar and many others are advising us to avoid meditation, japa, pranayama etc, if we still wobble back and forth between the lower states like anger, depression, jealousy etc.
Interestingly, Swami Sivananda encourages meditation, japa etc for controlling anger in his book, "Conquest of Anger" "http://salmun.cwahi.net/nrm/hind/dls/ang/anger.htm". I would have expected Swami Sivananda to be on the side of the traditional masters on this issue. But, to my surprise he advocates meditation, japa, etc, for anger.
Regards,
Ram. |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Oct 03 2010 : 12:31:20 AM
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Deep meditation as taught here, should definitely reduce stress and propensity to get angry. However, if one has stored anger due to refusal to experience it in the past, then part of the cleansing process brought about by meditation may bring this anger back again.
This can mistakenly be thought of as bringing anger, because when we have pure anger, we look for a reason to be angry, and might not distinguish this from old anger.
However, upon closer examination we can find that we are simply feeling anger released from the body, and all we need to do is experience it to let it go.
Personally I have a lot of this, and it has been going on for some time. I know for sure from self inquiry that this is not fresh anger somehow caused by meditation.
So if I were to avoid that which is bringing out old anger, true the anger would stop, but I would not be better off.
In my case, physical flexibility stretching releases more anger. I can tell it was stored because my body has been stiff for years, and only upon releasing of emotions does it allow me to incrementally move beyond certain limits. Funny thing is, one does not return to the original story of where the anger came from. It is just pure anger.
It has taken quite some time, and I'm not done yet.
This kind of anger should not be controlled; only experienced. |
Edited by - Etherfish on Oct 03 2010 12:34:05 AM |
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Yuri
Russia
37 Posts |
Posted - Oct 03 2010 : 03:23:26 AM
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Hi Rkishan
From my own experience and from practical point of view I found out that it's very important to separate anger caused by excess of energy and anger caused by lack/deficit of energy.
Sometimes people think that anger always means excess of energy and this is not always like this. When we don't have enough energy, we easily get angry, though this type of anger has more hysterical nature. This is more common for Vata-type (air-type) people (because they often lack internal fire), but really all types, even Pitta can get into it.
Practical implications are evident because if one does not have enough energy, he shall increase it. From my experience Sun salutation and stand asanas may be good (btw, Swami Satyananda whom you mentioned recommends to cure most of desases with Sun salutation - at least in the book I read). Also moderate (several seconds) breath retentions after inhale with concentratng on top of head (concentrating with feelings not with eyes) may be good. While if there is excess of energy, better do reverse asanas (moderate, not head stand, and not shoulder stand), and full yogic breathing with ratio 1:2 and optional moderate retentions after exhale.
In both cases moderate physical exercises with moderate sweating are good.
After one locates the right method to come to balance, then it's time to return to deep meditation
Just my 2 cents from practical point. Please remember that this is from my experience, yours may be different |
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Yuri
Russia
37 Posts |
Posted - Oct 03 2010 : 03:43:17 AM
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Hi Etherfish
quote:
Deep meditation as taught here, should definitely reduce stress and propensity to get angry. However, if one has stored anger due to refusal to experience it in the past, then part of the cleansing process brought about by meditation may bring this anger back again.
What you mean is releasing of subconscious (suppressed) emotions and feelings which every DM releases. We quite our mind in order for High Self to get in, but first and before High Self - subconscious self sneaks in.
I think all people have it during DM to this or that extent.
If one can go (and wishes to go) to ashram/convent/hut to meditate - I mean - to leave the wordly life for several years and dedicate oneself totally to meditation - it's one thing. If however one wants to combine wordly life with meditation - it's another thing. The latter is more dangerous to health . Because we all are not saints. Well, at least me - for sure- enough suppressed stuff.
So once more I advocate finding ways/methods to bring balance back if once lost (and for sure if it does not exist in the beginning) - otherwise how to live our wordly life?! DM can't do it just because DM releases this stuff, and there is too much of this stuff, and we shall have enough resource to withstand.
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Edited by - Yuri on Oct 03 2010 08:13:19 AM |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Oct 03 2010 : 08:23:10 AM
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Hi Yuri,
Yes that is what I was talking about. But i think it is just the opposite; if you withdraw from society I think it is more likely to bring out the suppressed emotions. If you are around other people at an ashram, they will bring it out. And if you are in a cave with nobody else, you don't have all the distractions of society and are left with only your mind to deal with.
That is why it is good that DM is so calm and peaceful to help get rid of stress, and it is good to have the distractions of everyday life in between to keep from too much release at once.
I don't know if the spiritual overload other people talk about here is the same thing as releasing too many stored emotions at once. But for me that is the danger. So I am happy to have a busy, non-spiritual life to keep me from having all those emotions to face at once. And the DM calms me also to make it easier. |
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Meditation for all levels of Spiritual Seekers?
