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tantor
United Kingdom
14 Posts |
 Posted - Aug 20 2010 : 11:32:19 AM
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This may sound like a stupid question, but how do you actually say the "I am" mantra while meditating? I've listened to Yogani's audio book, and he says that pronunciation may sound clear, and as you relax may become more fuzzy. But he also says that it shouldn't be tied to inhalation or exhalation. This seems to be the only natural way for me to do it. I say it like this:
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIyyyyyyyyyyyyyy
********* long inhale ******** (takes about 1 minute)
(mind blank, just pausing in the kumbhaka)
****************** pause *****************
aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaammmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
********* long exhale ******** (takes about 1 minute)
(mind blank, just pausing in the kumbhaka)
****************** pause *****************
Sometimes I make the "am" sound more like "aum".
Is the mantra at some point meant to spontaneously give way to stillness, or should I be receptive to experiencing stillness in the kumbhaka? Or maybe I should be establishing a rhythm more like:
IIIIIyyy ammmmmm IIIIIyyy ammmmmm IIIIIyyy ammmmmm
********* long inhale ******** (takes about 1 minute)
etc. But then where would the stillness come from, and wouldn't I have just replaced my usual mental chatter with something else? Or maybe, I'm meant to be gradually "turning the volume down" so I'm left with silence?
I'm a bit confused by the subtler points of mantra.
Thanks |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4429 Posts |
Posted - Aug 20 2010 : 12:49:34 PM
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Hi Tantor,
Don't link the mantra to the breath, if you do you will limit its effectiveness. It may seem at bit strange at first, but it does not take long to disentangle the two.
quote:
etc. But then where would the stillness come from, and wouldn't I have just replaced my usual mental chatter with something else? Or maybe, I'm meant to be gradually "turning the volume down" so I'm left with silence?
The silence of the mind is not necessarily the absence of noise. If it was, then it could be disturbed at any moment by a sound, or by a movement of thought. The silence of the mind is not touched by sound, whether it is an external sound, or a thought, or the mantra. It is the vast space in which everything happens. So there can be inner silence present, and thoughts, and the mantra, and the TV on next door, all at the same time. Gradually, inner silence comes to the fore and becomes the predominant factor.
As for how to pronounce the mantra, it is not so important. It will change of it's own accord as you go deeper into stillness with it, and that's O.K. too.
Christi |
Edited by - Christi on Aug 20 2010 12:53:05 PM |
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Clear White Light
USA
229 Posts |
Posted - Aug 20 2010 : 1:10:47 PM
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Tantor,
It is very important to not intentionally associate the mantra with the breathing process. If the mantra happens to be synchronized with your breathing that is fine, but you shouldn't indulge it or aim for it. But neither should you make extraneous efforts to avoid it if it is happening, either. One of the most important things AYP has done for me is cleared up the false belief that the deeper in meditation you go, the deeper the breath will become. At first this seems to make sense, but in reality it is exactly the opposite. As we go deeper into meditation, all the physiological processes of the body begin to slow down; Metabolism slows down, brainwave activity decreases, the muscles relax etc. Since the vital processes of the body are all relaxed, they actually require much less energy to keep them going. Consequently, the breath will actually become shallower and shallower and even begin to suspend. Deep breathing is more beneficial for Pranayama than meditation. |
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tantor
United Kingdom
14 Posts |
Posted - Aug 20 2010 : 1:27:01 PM
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Thanks for your responses. I'll try to establish a rhythm instead.
Now I think about it, that time my awareness became totally single-pointed that I mentioned in my other post, I was just repeating mentally "what is there, what is there", and like you say CWL, my breath became shallower and shallower until it stopped of its own accord. But all the time I was repeating the mantra.
OK, I feel good about trying mantra meditation now. I'm going to stick with it for a few months and see how things go.
Cheers
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NatanEpsilon
Fyro Macedonia
21 Posts |
Posted - Aug 26 2010 : 4:08:24 PM
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Hi Tantor,
That is definitely not a stupid question!
I have practiced Deep Meditation for about 40 days by saying it in a much faster tempo; but I found that the more I speed up the tempo of saying the Mantra the more thoughts are arising in my mind and disturbing my concentration. In the last 2-3 days I'm practicing saying the mantra in a much slower tempo. Saying the Iiiiii for about 5 seconds, than saying Ammmmm for about 5 seconds. Than a 5 seconds pause. I found that it is more effective in this way. But really, you must find for your self what is working better.
Many blessings to you,
Natan |
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DansInEveryWay
USA
26 Posts |
Posted - Oct 07 2010 : 5:53:20 PM
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hello. i definitely had the same questions you do when i started. i stumbled onto an explanation yogani gave about the mantra in one of the later lessons a little while ago: http://www.aypsite.org/366.html. i haven't read any of the books yogani wrote, so this may be redundant information. but if i had read this when i began DM, i think it would have been a big help.
"As we develop a clearer understanding of the finer points of the deep meditation process, we can move beyond the clunky stage. Then our meditations will be going naturally deeper and we can be confident that our practice is effective.
Let’s look at the several key symptoms of clunkiness mentioned above, with pointers on how to get beyond them:
* Clear pronunciation of mantra – While we may be inclined to hold a clear pronunciation of the mantra "I AM" (AYAM), the procedure of deep meditation facilitates the gradual refinement of the mantra to become very faint and fuzzy, and disappearing into stillness. When we realize we are off the mantra, we can pick it up again where we left off, which may be at a very refined level. Going all the way back to a clear pronunciation is not desirable if we can naturally pick it up at a more refined level. When we have a choice between a clearer pronunciation or a fainter and fuzzier pronunciation, favor the latter.
* Fixed pattern of repetition – In the beginning we may feel obligated to keep a fixed pattern of repetition of the mantra. As with allowing the refinement of pronunciation of the mantra, the pattern of repetition is allowed to change however it may. So, while we may begin our sitting with a fairly regular pattern of repetition, as the mantra refines, that pattern may change and blend into stillness in a way that could not be called a repetition at all. It can be just a faint feeling of the mantra being there with no pattern of repetition. At some point we will realize we are off it, and we can easily come back to that faint feeling of the mantra again without the requirement for any particular pattern of repetition.
* Keeping other thoughts out – Thoughts are a normal part of deep meditation and we do not have to worry about them being there or not. If we fight thoughts, try to do anything with them, we will reduce the effectiveness of our meditation. When thoughts come, we just easily favor the thought of the mantra. There can be thoughts with the mantra, or not. It does not matter. We are not in charge of thoughts in deep meditation. We are only in charge of the simple procedure of favoring the mantra when we realize we are not on it, at whatever level of mind we happen to be during our session.
These are key symptoms that may be present if we feel we are not progressing as we would like with deep meditation, and how we can move beyond them. For full instructions on deep meditation, review the series of instructions beginning in Lesson 13.
The essential point to grasp in approaching deep meditation is that it is not about structuring anything in the mind. It is just the opposite. In fact, if we are putting too much structure into the process, we could get a headache or other symptoms of strain, which we call "forcing the mantra." We gain in deep meditation by losing the mantra (again and again), not by hanging on to it. That is the secret. If we take care of that in our daily sittings, everything else will take care of itself in due course.
If we are inclined to analyze our thoughts or the process of deep meditation during our session, the procedure is to regard this like any other thought, and ease back to the mantra. " |
Edited by - DansInEveryWay on Oct 07 2010 6:04:15 PM |
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Tibetan_Ice
Canada
758 Posts |
Posted - Oct 08 2010 : 12:56:36 AM
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Hi dansineveryway :)
Thanks for pointing out that lesson.
You have helped me to remember what I once knew but had forgotten.
The mantra never did refine for me on it's own but I did discover the light above my head by taking the mantra from coarse subvocalization to fine subvocalization, to mental repetition, to visual repetition and finally to intuiting the mantra off the top of my head. Literally. However it was an act of will on my part.
I think that is what Yogani means when he says 'refining the mantra'. I believe you have to help it along. This may not be entirely correct but that is what is working for me now.
Just sitting here right now at my computer and by intuiting the mantra off the top of my head a few times, my kundalini has flared up. Just by focusing on that spot with a very quick, faint "I AM", it hits the root directly producing flows of ecstatic bliss. It feels like the crown and the root are one, the same location. Wow! I had forgotten all about that.
Oops I think I overloaded. Unbelievable. I'm crawling the walls again. Ten seconds of intuiting the mantra three or four times at the top of the head and now I feel like I'm going to cry, scream, explode, dissolve in ecstatic bliss, quit breathing,.. yikes!
The parts of Yogani's writing in that lesson that really helped me remember and realize all this just now are:
quote:
When we have a choice between a clearer pronunciation or a fainter and fuzzier pronunciation, favor the latter.
and this part:
quote:
It can be just a faint feeling of the mantra being there with no pattern of repetition.
I've interpreted the "faint feeling" of the mantra as just barely touching the mantra, like intuiting it, like quickly just creating it off the top of the head. It feels like I am just sending a very fine pulse of "I AM" there, almost like it is just an intent.
Thank you very much for pointing out that lesson. I appreciate it.
And thank you Yogani for that lesson. :)
TI
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Panthau
Austria
149 Posts |
Posted - Oct 08 2010 : 03:13:33 AM
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Just wanted to thank you for your answer Christi, as i always connected my mantra to my breath. Now that i have
disconnected it, its a whole new experience. |
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DansInEveryWay
USA
26 Posts |
Posted - Oct 08 2010 : 8:52:27 PM
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hey TI
you are very welcome  it's amazing what i will forget as well, it's such a simple practice.
hmm, you've intrigued me, however, describing how you refine the mantra. i've always just gotten to a faint, gentle pulse of energy in the middle of my head before letting it go or becoming distracted. it never seems to change location very much any more. i'll try and see if i can get it to go back/up any further, just as an experiment. "good things are happening." as yogani says.
dan |
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Tibetan_Ice
Canada
758 Posts |
Posted - Oct 08 2010 : 10:02:42 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by dansineveryway
hey TI
you are very welcome it's amazing what i will forget as well, it's such a simple practice.
hmm, you've intrigued me, however, describing how you refine the mantra. i've always just gotten to a faint, gentle pulse of energy in the middle of my head before letting it go or becoming distracted. it never seems to change location very much any more. i'll try and see if i can get it to go back/up any further, just as an experiment. "good things are happening." as yogani says.
dan
Hi Dan,
I should mention that I did not intend to locate the mantra at the top of my head. Just one day, I noticed that if I very quickly and subtley thought of something or you know, like the old expression "off the top of my head", well that is where my awareness ended up. It's a very fast area, the thoughts up there go speeding by very quickly. It's like another time zone.
I also noticed that there seems to be a progression from the top down. If you let a thought flow downwards it results in subvocalization or visual imagery. If you stop the flow of the thought before it has a chance to manifest in the conscious mind, the subvocalization doesn't occur. The way I do that is by temporarily suspending my breathing (and being very still somewhat like freezing) because the lower tan tien is somehow linked to the process.
I know what you mean by the mantra remaining fixed in one location in the head. It is like it is coming from somewhere behind the center of the head, about an inch above the eyes and 5 inches back. I think it is part of the cave of brahman or just in back of it. There is a space there. When the mantra comes out of that region, it looks like a droplet of water striking a vertical pond of water.
When I didn't refine the mantra, was too stuck on just clearly pronouncing it and repeating it repetitiously, that's where it would originate from. I believe that location is the origination point of the subvocalization aspect of the mantra. It is where the voice in your head that talks to you comes from. I know the source of some thoughts comes from the top of the head, outside of the cave of brahman. Other thoughts seem to come from everywhere above the cave of brahman.
Anyway, I would be curious to hear how about your experimentation.
:)
TI |
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DansInEveryWay
USA
26 Posts |
Posted - Oct 13 2010 : 10:13:42 PM
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pretty off topic here, so i'll keep it short and end this here... regarding my experiment: i can become aware of the mantra in what seem like various locations in my mind, but as for 'guiding' it somewhere i don't sense it, the mantra won't budge. strange stuff one way or the other.
onward
dan |
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How to actually say the I AM mantra?
