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Ethereal_Ecstasy
USA
32 Posts |
 Posted - Jul 21 2010 : 7:25:13 PM
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Can moksha be obtained in several lifetimes, especially with a practice like AYP? I’ve read that a few people are experiencing similar/better results doing AYP compared to practices like Kriya Yoga, which is considered by many to be the lightning path towards enlightenment and liberation. I’ve googled this question to death, but there aren’t many straight answers to such an obvious question. ( )
~Ethereal Ecstasy |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jul 21 2010 : 9:28:00 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Ethereal_Ecstasy
Can moksha be obtained in several lifetimes, especially with a practice like AYP? I’ve read that a few people are experiencing similar/better results doing AYP compared to practices like Kriya Yoga, which is considered by many to be the lightning path towards enlightenment and liberation. I’ve googled this question to death, but there aren’t many straight answers to such an obvious question. ()
~Ethereal Ecstasy
Hi Ethereal Ecstasy,
Moksha can be obtained in this lifetime, if you're serious about attaining it, and are willing to do what it takes.
Many non-dual paths (Kashmir Shaivism, Zen, Advaita, Dzogchen, etc.) teach this, and have verified it, via practitioner's results.
So has AYP.
Thinking in terms of lifetimes is ultimately imagination; best to just practice and get as far as you get ...... but moksha in a relatively short time -- usually a few years at most, though I personally feel that faster is possible -- and especially with availability of free high-quality, liberation-oriented information online {i.e. here at AYP}, and an increasing number of liberated people communicating online and elsewhere .... this is the best time in history to be pursuing liberation.
Also, by the way, Kriyabans such as Yogananda seemingly attained moksha in one lifetime (unless Yogananda said differently; I don't recall ... but his journey as described in Autobiography of a Yogi involved only part of a single lifetime).
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
PS- It's really not so much a matter of "fixed time needed", as dropping all preconceptions, being authentic and rigorous with inquiry and observation, and practicing daily. If your life is dedicated to liberation, there's no way you can remain non-liberated for an entire lifetime if you're sincere, and doing what you need to do.
PPS- Welcome to the AYP Forum!
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Edited by - Kirtanman on Jul 21 2010 9:30:05 PM |
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Ethereal_Ecstasy
USA
32 Posts |
Posted - Jul 22 2010 : 12:28:38 AM
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Hello again, Kirtanman!
Once again, thank you for answering yet another one of my questions! Although I probably can't answer many of yours, I still feel indebted to you. 
Since living in the present has become more easy for me, I believe that I could go through countless reincarnations for liberation without the pain of having it being just out of your grasp somewhere in the realllllyyyy distant future. However, I have just as much ambition as patience, so I would have no problem doing what it takes to get there in this life. 
By the way, although I use "liberation" and "enlightenment" interchangeably, they aren't the same thing, are they? When you say there are "liberated" people online, do you mean "enlightened"? I could be wrong, but I've heard that when you achieve "liberation", you melt into Unity and "disappear" forever. And, just curious, are there a lot of gurus that have achieved "enlightenment" but not "liberation"?
Haha. Sorry to call your awesome answer into question, Kirtanman, as it is probably due to my lack of understanding. Hopefully my head won't be reeling so much with all these terms and technicalities once my inquiries have been answered. 
~Ethereal Ecstasy
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jul 22 2010 : 8:57:47 PM
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Hi Ethereal Ecstasy,
quote:
Originally posted by Ethereal_Ecstasy
Hello again, Kirtanman!
Once again, thank you for answering yet another one of my questions! Although I probably can't answer many of yours, I still feel indebted to you.
No worries ... and no debt.
(And you're very welcome.)
A lot of people answered questions for those of us who've been around here a while, when we were new here -- and now some of us tend to do that ourselves, and we enjoy it.
quote:
Since living in the present has become more easy for me, I believe that I could go through countless reincarnations for liberation without the pain of having it being just out of your grasp somewhere in the realllllyyyy distant future. However, I have just as much ambition as patience, so I would have no problem doing what it takes to get there in this life.
The thing that really tends to light the fire in those who are ready, is realizing that all bondage is dreaming, and all dreaming is bondage.
Who is content to live in the unreal, once they understand it is actually unreal?
quote:
By the way, although I use "liberation" and "enlightenment" interchangeably, they aren't the same thing, are they? When you say there are "liberated" people online, do you mean "enlightened"? I could be wrong, but I've heard that when you achieve "liberation", you melt into Unity and "disappear" forever. And, just curious, are there a lot of gurus that have achieved "enlightenment" but not "liberation"?
Both "Liberation" and "Enlightenment" are relative terms, from the side of the dream, only.
Once they occur, there's only wholeness.
Any talk of "disappearing forever" refers to the false idea-of-self that is the source code for the dream.
Liberation is liberation from the bondage of falseness; enlightenment is enlightenment from the darkness of falseness.
If there's any person or group who defines these terms differently, there's probably another person or group who defines them differently, again.
The reality of liberation (one term among many) is actually beyond words; words divide; reality is wholeness.
quote:
Haha. Sorry to call your awesome answer into question, Kirtanman, as it is probably due to my lack of understanding. Hopefully my head won't be reeling so much with all these terms and technicalities once my inquiries have been answered.
No problem; it didn't even occur to me that you had called anything into question. This is a discussion forum; we discuss stuff -- and you're both welcome to, and actively encouraged, to question anything anyone here says -- we're not about avoiding questions, here -- we're about facilitating liberation, or enlightenment, or whatever you want to call it.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman |
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SapphireBlue
USA
1 Posts |
Posted - Jul 23 2010 : 12:38:55 PM
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| I think that if you just meditate and not think too much about it you will progress. If you worry about getting there fast your still stuck in the mind which is the whole problem. |
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Ethereal_Ecstasy
USA
32 Posts |
Posted - Jul 23 2010 : 7:31:34 PM
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Hey Kirtanman,
quote:
The thing that really tends to light the fire in those who are ready, is realizing that all bondage is dreaming, and all dreaming is bondage.
Who is content to live in the unreal, once they understand it is actually unreal?
I have trouble visualizing it that way. I don’t think I can differentiate “discontent” with living in the unreal from being “angry” with living in the unreal, which of course, seems counterproductive and hard to sustain for long. Or maybe I have no bhakti. Anyways, I just find that if I can live comfortably in the moment without feeling immense suffering, then I’m happy. They seem like two contradicting concepts: having bhakti (trying to strive for a higher ideal somewhere in the far future) and living in the moment (where the future isn’t real). Although I like living in the moment, it almost frustrates me that I have nothing “pulling” me towards a goal (well, when I open myself up, I often can’t stand seeing other people suffer around me, so perhaps this is my bhakti. I say “around me” because if I thought about others’ suffering around the world and the fact that I couldn’t directly help them, I would probably go mad.) Of course I want moksha, but it does almost nothing for me when I visualize trying to acquire it in order to give me motivation to pursue it in the “Here and Now”. Or is the motivation filled with Divine Love, Love that you can very much feel in the “Here and Now”? If so, then bhakti doesn’t feel like such an impossible practice, after all. Maybe by coming full circle, I have answered my own question. However, I won’t force bhakti, as AYP prescribes. I’ll let it flower naturally from my cultivation of inner silence.
quote:
Any talk of "disappearing forever" refers to the false idea-of-self that is the source code for the dream.
Well, when I said “disappearing forever”, I didn’t mean consciousness would cease to exist. I meant it to mean acquiring a one-way ticket into Unity, where you no longer participate in the cycles of birth and death (and no longer could go back and help others achieve the same, if I’m correct). Do a lot of those monks that shut themselves off from the world normally seek moksha above all else because they do not care about humanity? Although it is tempting to do so, doesn’t that defeat the purpose of living on earth, where you might as well have not existed because you made no positive difference in the world? I wonder if that’s why charity to others is an important part of the liberation process, because it gives our lives purpose?
quote:
No problem; it didn't even occur to me that you had called anything into question. This is a discussion forum; we discuss stuff -- and you're both welcome to, and actively encouraged, to question anything anyone here says -- we're not about avoiding questions, here -- we're about facilitating liberation, or enlightenment, or whatever you want to call it.
Hehe, that’s my way of being polite, I suppose. You sometimes don’t know who you’re dealing with on forums, so it's best to be as nice as you can, without being dishonest or insincere. Your welcome for me to ask questions makes me glow with love and acceptance, though.
Anyways, thank you for this very lovely and satisfying conversation. It’s always worth the extra thought and care I put into writing them. 
Peace and Love
~Ethereal Ecstasy~ |
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Ethereal_Ecstasy
USA
32 Posts |
Posted - Jul 23 2010 : 7:36:33 PM
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quote:
I think that if you just meditate and not think too much about it you will progress. If you worry about getting there fast your still stuck in the mind which is the whole problem.
Don’t worry, Sapphire. I know I’ll progress with AYP, even if it does take years to reach any milestones. Maybe it is fulfillment for the Ego, but I’ve always been curious if it was possible to achieve our ultimate destiny, Unity with the Divine, in such a short frame of time. Although it is important to not give in to the Ego’s wants, I believe that changing myself from within by cultivating blissful silence will naturally lead me to transcending it. I appreciate your consideration, though! It has not gone ignored!
~Ethereal Ecstasy~ |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jul 25 2010 : 11:34:37 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Ethereal_Ecstasy
Hey Kirtanman,
quote:
The thing that really tends to light the fire in those who are ready, is realizing that all bondage is dreaming, and all dreaming is bondage.
Who is content to live in the unreal, once they understand it is actually unreal?
I have trouble visualizing it that way. I don’t think I can differentiate “discontent” with living in the unreal from being “angry” with living in the unreal, which of course, seems counterproductive and hard to sustain for long. Or maybe I have no bhakti. Anyways, I just find that if I can live comfortably in the moment without feeling immense suffering, then I’m happy. They seem like two contradicting concepts: having bhakti (trying to strive for a higher ideal somewhere in the far future) and living in the moment (where the future isn’t real). Although I like living in the moment, it almost frustrates me that I have nothing “pulling” me towards a goal (well, when I open myself up, I often can’t stand seeing other people suffer around me, so perhaps this is my bhakti. I say “around me” because if I thought about others’ suffering around the world and the fact that I couldn’t directly help them, I would probably go mad.) Of course I want moksha, but it does almost nothing for me when I visualize trying to acquire it in order to give me motivation to pursue it in the “Here and Now”. Or is the motivation filled with Divine Love, Love that you can very much feel in the “Here and Now”? If so, then bhakti doesn’t feel like such an impossible practice, after all. Maybe by coming full circle, I have answered my own question. However, I won’t force bhakti, as AYP prescribes. I’ll let it flower naturally from my cultivation of inner silence.
AYP prescribes forcing bhakti?
I'm pretty sure AYP doesn't prescribe forcing anything -- seriously; we're kind of the "anti-forcing" system.
Where did you get that idea?
Re: your other comments --- most of us feel like you describe, at the start of our practices --- a deep-seated sense of wanting everything to add up, as far as how to look at it, etc.
In liberation, there's really just living in actuality.
Thinking about conceptual, abstract things - and trying to make them make sense, is probably how most people spend the majority of their time, spiritually-speaking .... and this always yields a "negative return on investment".
Conceptual considerations are always a waste of time.
And this isn't criticism in any way; I probably felt and sounded essentially identical to how you're sounding, when I started -- it's very normal. I'm just offering a few pointers, from the standpoint of experience, that can help you save some time and energy, in whatever you hope to get out of spiritual practices.
If spiritual practices are analogous to working out at a gym, conceptual considerations are equivalent to sitting in your car in the gym's parking lot -- you may look like someone who has "gone to the gym" or is "going to the gym" -- but sitting in your car, you're not reaping the benefits of working out.
What's not a waste of time?
Daily practices, and inquiry/observation.
"Do whatever you want, and meditate."
=as the famous sage Swami Lakshmanjoo has said.
quote:
quote:
Any talk of "disappearing forever" refers to the false idea-of-self that is the source code for the dream.
Well, when I said “disappearing forever”, I didn’t mean consciousness would cease to exist. I meant it to mean acquiring a one-way ticket into Unity, where you no longer participate in the cycles of birth and death
Same condition I referred to, above, except the condition I'm referring to is prior to the illusory vacillations of birth and death.
quote:
(and no longer could go back and help others achieve the same, if I’m correct).
With all respect, this is not correct.
In liberation (aka enlightenment, the natural state, etc. --- there are many names for the simplicity of living unbound in reality) -- you can help, not help, have a sandwich .... whatever; that's what liberation means (liberation).
The general tendency tends to be spending time is activities that are connected with others, and uplifting and awakening them (meaning: assisting the process in various ways) - because that's the natural movement, in awareness of self as wholeness. There's also plenty of time living like a regular person, too ----- if there's any great, great secret to all this enlightenment stuff, it's this:
It's real. It's available. It's worth everything.
And it isn't even really that difficult, in comparison to the alternative (a dream life in ever-returning suffering that's ultimately fictitious and unnecessary).
quote:
Do a lot of those monks that shut themselves off from the world normally seek moksha above all else because they do not care about humanity?
I have no idea.
I do know: wake up first, and you'll know all you need to know.
The concept that "moksha" means liberating oneself away from helping others is either fiction, or misunderstanding, or both ..... but either way: it's a concept that keeps the dream going ("I can't attain moksha or I won't be able to help others" ------ is that what you've heard? That's utterly untrue, I'm happy to tell you. )
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Although it is tempting to do so, doesn’t that defeat the purpose of living on earth, where you might as well have not existed because you made no positive difference in the world?
If I understand you correctly, and I think I do, the premise is incorrect.
Liberation frees and empowers us; dreaming does the opposite.
There's only truth and falsehood.
Truth is the one you want.
Living in truth is called liberation.
quote:
I wonder if that’s why charity to others is an important part of the liberation process, because it gives our lives purpose?
Nope. It's either A. Somebody's conceptual story of how to be "good", or B. A way for people to get past their limited ideas of themselves by connecting with others, and experiencing some "on the ground" unity, which helps with ego dissolution (as does the focus away from the fictitious and always self-serving needs of the ego-idea).
"B" is useful; "A" not so much.
Charity is an important part of the liberation process if it's important to you, I suppose (as anything is, to each of us) ..... but there's no rule-book; no fixed standard --- no one judging, or evaluating; those are all the projected fictions of the ego.
If we're not liberated, there's only one truly charitable thing we can ever do:
Get Liberated.
If we do anything else, we're just floundering in the dream, with other shipwreck victims.
quote:
quote:
No problem; it didn't even occur to me that you had called anything into question. This is a discussion forum; we discuss stuff -- and you're both welcome to, and actively encouraged, to question anything anyone here says -- we're not about avoiding questions, here -- we're about facilitating liberation, or enlightenment, or whatever you want to call it.
Hehe, that’s my way of being polite, I suppose. You sometimes don’t know who you’re dealing with on forums, so it's best to be as nice as you can, without being dishonest or insincere. Your welcome for me to ask questions makes me glow with love and acceptance, though.
Cool. We're a pretty easy-going bunch around here, for the most part.
quote:
Anyways, thank you for this very lovely and satisfying conversation. It’s always worth the extra thought and care I put into writing them.
Peace and Love
~Ethereal Ecstasy~
Glad you feel that way, and again, welcome to the AYP Forum.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
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krcqimpro1
India
329 Posts |
Posted - Jul 26 2010 : 09:45:50 AM
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Hi Everybody,
In my view, the only reasonable answer to EE's question, is that nobody alive really knows and that he will have to find out for himself. And when he does at the end of this life, he will not be able to "tell" anybody.The main reason for this is that ultimately, everything depends on a person's Karma, and jet route or not, who knows how much "house-cleaning" is there to be done.
Even PY only tells you that one Kriya is equal to one year of other types of spiritual practice, but who knows how many Zillion "years" of Karma I have to get rid of?
Krish |
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Ethereal_Ecstasy
USA
32 Posts |
Posted - Jul 27 2010 : 2:56:46 PM
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Greetings again Kirtanman,
quote:
I'm pretty sure AYP doesn't prescribe forcing anything -- seriously; we're kind of the "anti-forcing" system.
Where did you get that idea?
That wasn’t what I meant to convey when I wrote that, Kirtanman! Quite the opposite. But, I could see where you would interpret that the way you did; it was a poor choice of wording. It was probably better to say: “I will do like AYP perscribes and not force bhakti.” Hope that clears it all up!
quote:
Thinking about conceptual, abstract things - and trying to make them make sense, is probably how most people spend the majority of their time, spiritually-speaking .... and this always yields a "negative return on investment".
Right on the mark. I tend to a somewhat analytical person. I’m guessing that very long, rambling paragraph gave me away. But, I do desire a stable practice above all else. I’ve spent several years searching for something like AYP, having to use my intellect to try to piece all of my eclectic findings together. I felt that finding out about everything there is to know about spirituality was the only way to know if I was practicing properly. Analyzing everything was never meant to be an end in itself, and I did know that practice was a far better investment of my time; but I was always afraid to dip my toes in the water because not everything added up and made sense. However, Yogani’s explanations about such things was very elucidating and therefore, very satiating, so I probably won’t go out of my way to research much else of that nature anytime soon.
quote:
The concept that "moksha" means liberating oneself away from helping others is either fiction, or misunderstanding, or both ..... but either way: it's a concept that keeps the dream going ("I can't attain moksha or I won't be able to help others" ------ is that what you've heard? That's utterly untrue, I'm happy to tell you. )
Yes, I’m not saying this from my own conclusions; I’ve heard it said several times before from several different sources, one of them being: The Ultimate Reality by Adrian Cooper, if you’ve ever heard of her or her book. The passage reads:
‘Many ancient cultures have described “Gods” descending from the “heavens” bringing great knowledge, wisdom and teachings, and yet even the very highest of these Beings are still but individuations of, and held within in the infinite Mind of The Source, of God, our Prime Creator, but who have of their own freewill elected not to enter into a state of Unity with God in order to help humans and all other beings in the Universe in the continuing upward ascent through the great planes of life.’
quote:
If spiritual practices are analogous to working out at a gym, conceptual considerations are equivalent to sitting in your car in the gym's parking lot -- you may look like someone who has "gone to the gym" or is "going to the gym" -- but sitting in your car, you're not reaping the benefits of working out.
Because I am dragged to the gym against my will (and because I am growing increasingly more attracted towards physical yoga practices), maybe sitting in the car wouldn’t be such a bad thing. (Just pulling your leg and nice analogy, btw! )
Anyways, I appreciate the attention to detail in your reply, Kirtanman, as my post was a bit long. Perhaps my apparent need to feed the intellect will soon ebb after some experience with the AYP exercises. So, it’s good that your guidance has kindled my desire to seek the answers to these questions through firsthand experience! It’s what we all live for, after all!
~Ethereal Ecstasy~ |
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Ethereal_Ecstasy
USA
32 Posts |
Posted - Jul 27 2010 : 2:59:59 PM
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Hello Krish,
quote:
In my view, the only reasonable answer to EE's question, is that nobody alive really knows and that he will have to find out for himself.
That’s true. I just wanted to get a general bearing on how long it might take. If there’s a forum that I can ask the question on at no cost to me, then I say “why not”? (That is not to say that I regard anyone’s answers lightly! Not in the least!  )
quote:
Even PY only tells you that one Kriya is equal to one year of other types of spiritual practice, but who knows how many Zillion "years" of Karma I have to get rid of?
Well, hopefully I haven’t committed too many crimes and done too many unsavory things over the millenia to have a zillion years of karma to wash off. But, if the hardest part is to enjoy the journey and live in the moment, then maybe the wait won’t be so unbearably long, after all!
~Ethereal Ecstasy~ |
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Time Needed for Liberation
