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tonightsthenight
846 Posts |
 Posted - Jun 19 2010 : 3:30:49 PM
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I have been reading quite a bit about the spiritual concepts of non-orgasmic sex.
Obviously, a lot of people here are pursuing this method of sexual expression.
As i understand it, the central notion of tantric or spiritualized sex is to overcome the animal nature within by refraining from orgasm. I believe Yogani has said that this is a natural development for some people.
Christi has said to me, quite astutely, that if don't feel you need the extra prana, then tantra may not be all that constructive. So I wonder, is tantric sex something we must aspire to (in the end), or is it just a tool, a method by which we can increase bliss and shakti?
I myself have not experimented with this. However, i am now wondering if non-orgasmic sex is something we should all aspire to. That is, are we meant to completely overcome our animal desire for orgasm, and rather sublimate that desire into tantric sex?
Or is this simply a method for increasing ecstatic conductivity and bliss in ourselves?
From my perspective, it would seem a shame to never orgasm, since lovemaking can be very wonderful, giving and sharing experience with a loving partner. |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jun 19 2010 : 9:06:14 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by tonightsthenight
I have been reading quite a bit about the spiritual concepts of non-orgasmic sex.
Obviously, a lot of people here are pursuing this method of sexual expression.
As i understand it, the central notion of tantric or spiritualized sex is to overcome the animal nature within by refraining from orgasm. I believe Yogani has said that this is a natural development for some people.
Christi has said to me, quite astutely, that if don't feel you need the extra prana, then tantra may not be all that constructive. So I wonder, is tantric sex something we must aspire to (in the end), or is it just a tool, a method by which we can increase bliss and shakti?
I myself have not experimented with this. However, i am now wondering if non-orgasmic sex is something we should all aspire to. That is, are we meant to completely overcome our animal desire for orgasm, and rather sublimate that desire into tantric sex?
Or is this simply a method for increasing ecstatic conductivity and bliss in ourselves?
From my perspective, it would seem a shame to never orgasm, since lovemaking can be very wonderful, giving and sharing experience with a loving partner.
Hi Tonightsthenight,
I agree with you.
It's not even so much an "overcoming animal nature" thing, as a "restoring natural balance and energy" thing.
And, as Yogani makes clear in the AYP Tantra book, tantric sexual practices are very much optional, and solely for those who feel drawn to them.
And, as Christi mentioned recently: the energy loss from ejaculation doesn't tend to occur in later sadhana.
As many of us know, limited-mind tends to take things to the extreme; "if reducing ejaculation is good; never ever ejaculating is even better!"
It may be helpful to recall, as well, that listening to limited-mind is pretty much the entire problem.
Basically, if it (anything) is natural, it's fine. If there's a reason to temporarily engage in artificial discipline (of any kind) to help restore natural balance, great, but remember that keeping discipline relatively temporary (i.e. releasing the discipline when its purpose has been served) and relatively balanced (reducing ejaculation frequency doesn't mean eliminating it entirely, and eliminating ejaculation entirely isn't necessarily "better", in the same exact way that ten aspirin is not necessarily better than two).
Here's a U.G. Krishnamurti quote I read recently (in Jed McKenna's book Spiritually Incorrect Enlightenment, which I highly recommend, in case you haven't caught that thread, yet).
"By conserving sex energy you are not going to improve yourself in any way. It is too silly and too absurd. Why have they laid so much stress on that? Abstinence, continence, celibacy is not going to help put you in this situation.*"
~U.G. Krishnamurti
*Enlightenment
As always, with everything, I just suggest letting your own inner intuition be your guide; go with what feels right for you. If tantric sexual practices feel like they might be beneficial, you can always try them out.
The way I see it, at the level of form-practices (meditation, pranayama, tantric sexual practices, devotional chanting, asanas, etc. etc. etc.), it's all kind of like a menu; they're all supporting practices to support the expansion of our consciousness into ever-deeper, ever-more expanded awareness.
Tantric sexual practices are simply one item from than menu.
As I've said in other posts, many times: Yogani has hit on a very powerful synergy in the way he suggests combining pranayama (spinal breathing) and deep meditation, and so, in that sense "not all menu items are created equal" (I'd guess than most people will get more benefit from that combination, than from any other two randomly-selected form-practices, solely based on my own experience, and the experiences of other AYPers), but in general, I've found it helpful to look at all form practices (other than those two) as effectively equal.
During some phases of sadhana, I did more chanting; for a time, I did some of the AYP Tantric practices; other times, I did other types of practices, from other traditions (with AYP as the core, throughout) .... much like selecting menu items, while making sure "one fruit serving, and one vegetable serving" were included (I was going to say "meat" for one of those, but since Yogani's vegetarian, I went with Yogani-friendly cuisine ...  ).
And so, just be easy with it all, I'd say ... and in general, I agree with the way you're looking at this.
One final note, though: for most men who don't practice tantra, ejaculating every time they have sex is the norm; practice a bit of detachment from that dynamic, if you never have, can be helpful not only energetically, but also in terms of becoming aware of a less linear, more beautiful, more present kind of lovemaking, which has at least as much benefit in terms of consciousness and yogic sadhana, and I would say likely much more, than holding back from ejaculation does, in terms of energy-retention and its supposed benefits.
And so, various facets of refraining from ejaculation, and in engaging in normal sexual relations (i.e. with ejaculation, for men) can have their benefits. The only two "views" I'd carefully consider before engaging in would be "never refraining from ejaculation" (if you've never tried it, you'll likely find some benefit, I'd think, by trying it, even for a short time), or conversely "never ever ejaculating".
Any balanced approach in between those two points would likely be fine, I'd guess.
And if you felt you had to pick one of the extremes .... I'd go with always ejaculating, solely because it's more natural than not -- when in doubt, I'd trust nature a lot sooner than I'd trust the conclusions of limited-mind.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
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manigma
India
1065 Posts |
Posted - Jun 20 2010 : 03:56:41 AM
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This could be helpful:
Four-fold aspirations of Human Life
Human desirings are many. Hindu philosophers have classified them under four fundamental forms.
Dharma
Artha
Kama - The word refers to sex pleasure, or in a broader way all sense pleasures. We crave for sense pleasures seeking happiness. Kama refers to all the human desires seeking peace and happiness.
Moksha
Psychologically speaking
Dharma - Refer's to the desires for knowledge or wisdom.
Artha - Refer's to the desires for power.
Kama - Refer's to the desires for happiness or bliss.
Moksha - Refer's to the desires for freedom from limitations imposed by Nature.
http://www.healthandyoga.com/html/r...ays/ays6.asp
An external loving partner is fine but not necessary in Tantric Practices. We include both within us. But the external is helpful in beginning to reveal our other aspect.
Yet at deeper levels we realise that we are neither male nor female. |
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tonightsthenight
846 Posts |
Posted - Jun 20 2010 : 11:01:07 AM
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Thanks for your thoughts Kirtanman
What you say makes a lot of sense to me. Middle path, balance, etc.
As i said, i've been reading about Tantra and all that, and i came to the conclusion that some spiritual aspirants actually believe that the perfect, ideal, enlightened human would not ejaculate during sex, as the sex act as we think of it is the base form of animal desire and therefore it is something to be transcended.
So i was wondering, am i just deluding myself by holding on to the attachment of sex with orgasm and all that. After all, there's no sex in heaven, right! hehehehe 
I suppose it comes down to a philosophical split that i keep noticing:
Are we here in physical form to enjoy and create and prosper? Or is this just a prison meant to be transcended.
I prefer the former argument.
Hehehe, i also want to note that the tantra discussion can be downright frightening, with catheters and such! 
I think what i can take away from this is the idea of sexual balance. Ive never been a porn fan and i'm not really into masturabtion. But i feel compelled to purify and refine my sexual desire at this time. The notion of "checking out" girls has lost its appeal, and i feel like i am in the wrong if i do this. I see what Jesus meant when he said that adultery can be committed in the mind.
So i am purifying my sexual expression. I never considered that to be a Vishuddha thing, but i am starting to think that it is.
Great discussion, and thanks for you input! |
Edited by - tonightsthenight on Jun 20 2010 11:13:22 AM |
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Akasha
421 Posts |
Posted - Jun 20 2010 : 10:53:05 PM
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It's a Cosmic orgasm we can end up with ,through spiritual means or eventantric sex, rather than an ordinary orgasm, & it can & often does continue ,sometimes in waves, 24/7.
I'm not making this up.
You can enjoy sex,you just don't chase after ejaculatory orgasm, because the sex is occuring within your own nervous system.It's like your having sex with the Kundalini mother Goddess.You don't need to seek it outside of yourself. Whatever is released, in it's place, is i guess, an 'outpouring of divine love', to use AYP phraseology. But it's true.But it think you need to do alot of work. You need to purify your mind and channel base energies to higher centres. Actually the orgasms may well occur more in the brain and the whole nervous system.So the brain wakes up alot of previously dormant regions.
The sex becomes alot more enjoyable when we refrain from ejaculation but i agree with K-Man , it takes a certain amount of bodily purification and training to get there and i think you may well need to sustain it either within a balanced over-all group of practices.Otherwise i agree with K- MAN you do what is natural, what mother nature designed.
It is actually could be a little hard to appreciate unless you've tried out some of the practices & techniques.I might have thought yeah right it's denial but it's not- it's about celebration- that is what tantra is about -celebrating life, not denying it. It's a strange paradox, how you can have sex but not be engaged in it as we commonly understand it.We tend to commonly associate sex with intercourse but this is not necessarily the case with 'spiritual' sex which goes on actually internally.
You would'nt believe how much better it is ,but it takes work to get there.Good or great things in life rarely seem to come without some effort.
The Blow-Your-Mind kind of sex- that is all i can say. |
Edited by - Akasha on Jun 20 2010 11:14:18 PM |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Jun 21 2010 : 08:42:24 AM
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Hi Tonightsthenight,
Some great advice there, I don't have much to add to that.
As I see it, the way ejaculation (and orgasm because they are usually the same thing) fit in to the whole process of yoga depends on where you are in terms of the evolution of the nectar cycle. As the body becomes increasingly purified through yogic practice, a new dynamic begins in the body. With this dynamic, sexual energy and physical sexual substances are drawn up through the body. A transformation takes place in the belly, and the substance called soma is created. This substance then rises up to the crown of the head and begins to pour downwards over and around the body. At the same time sexual energy expands into every cell of the body and is experienced as ecstasy. The soma pouring down around us is intoxifying and blissful at the same time. At this point we are living in a constant orgasmic state.
This whole process is an evolutionary one which can take months or years to reach fulfilment and has stages of development. There is a point at which we are experiencing ecstasy throughout the body, but soma has not yet reached the crown. There are other stages in the process of transition from normal sexual functioning to this state of heightened sexual functioning.
In the beginning it is very useful to refrain from ejaculation, and orgasm, as the energy loss associated with orgasm is usually too high for the process of transition to begin. In the middle stages of transition, energy levels can be so high, especially during lovemaking, that the energy loss resulting from ejaculation may not be high enough to disturb the process. At this stage it is possible to easily feel the energetic process happening in the body, so it is a simple process to gauge how much is too much, if you are participating in orgasmic sex.
Christi
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manigma
India
1065 Posts |
Posted - Jun 21 2010 : 09:05:14 AM
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Thanks Christi for this great detailed explanation.
This exactly relates to my expereiences so far.
Wonderful!! |
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tonightsthenight
846 Posts |
Posted - Jun 21 2010 : 6:50:50 PM
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great explanation Christi
In your opinion, is there a difference between this transmuted sexual bliss and the bliss experienced as samadhi???
I'm trying to get a handle on these terms.
After not coming for about a week i could feel that extra vitality, and i could feel it contribute to the more physical aspect of shakti, and after drawing it up i can definitley see what you mean by full body orgasm.
However, as i've related in another thread in this forum, it doesn't feel at all like the bliss i develop in meditation.
Another way to explain the difference:
The sex/vitality energy i only feel up the spine and then "pouring" down.
The Bliss i feel in every cell, and it is exponentially more powerful.
Can you help me to understand this better? |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Jun 22 2010 : 05:50:23 AM
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Hi Tonightsthenight,
I remember Yogani once said that one day we will have 20 words for bliss, just as the Eskimos have 20 words for snow. In the meantime, we have to make do with only one!
In my experience, the bliss associated with samadhi is the bliss of freedom which comes from non-attachment. This cannot be said of the bliss associated with higher sexual functioning which is more of an intoxication, or an ecstasy. When the bliss of samadhi is felt in every cell of the body, radiating outwards, this is the merging of Shiva and Shakti, the merging of the bliss of silence with ecstasy (higher sexual functioning). It could be called ecstatic bliss. Gradually the radiance of ecstatic bliss is felt to emanate more and more from the expanded heart, which becomes the new seat of our being. This is the beginning of the flow of divine love.
So, at a certain point, it becomes difficult to distinguish between ecstasy and bliss, and it is not so important anyway. What is more important is that we continue to surrender to the process, because it is surrender which takes us to the next level.
Christi |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Jun 22 2010 : 08:14:26 AM
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Hi all
Interesting topic - thank you.
Christi said:
quote:
In my experience, the bliss associated with samadhi is the bliss of freedom which comes from non-attachment. This cannot be said of the bliss associated with higher sexual functioning which is more of an intoxication, or an ecstasy.
Just a comment to this.....
As the energy has refined over the years (and keeps refining), and as life keeps exposing me to deeper and more subtle ways of "holding on" - I keep coming back to the body. Through recent physical practices like yoga asanas, tai chi, standing chi gong and also mindfulness body scan....it becomes more and more evident here how samadhi includes the body at the same time as it transcends it.
So even though I am always in the 24/7 ecstatic circle....or whole body orgasm if you like....as the time goes by.... that very circle.... when there is great balance between life and practice, is propelling me deeper and deeper into the actual physical body. And this reveals deep layers of old physical "holding on" that is then released. And the more present I am then rendered in the body, at the same time as being completely still (not go shopping with the ecstacy, but not resisting it either) - then the quality that always is the same no matter when in energetic orgasm or samadhi - is Peace.
It is the deep, deep loving, kind peace that is felt to be also the ecstatic bliss here. But strangely enough it can be physically felt deeper in the ecstatic circle than in "deep silence meditation"......it is as if the silence loves the energy as much as the energy loves the silence, and this is felt in activity...in "open eyes present and engaged in life" mode. It is as if they are "more one" in the outflow. And so even though I don't have a partner now, I can see how the lovemaking also will reflect this...dynamic. It is bound to have that consequence. Not less sex and more love. Not more sex and less love. Not even making love. Just enjoying love. Just a deep deep embrace of the bodies in sensuous communion with the sacredness in flow.
You will have to excuse my lack of tantric partner experience  But will probably post more in time on this..it is an important shift inside, and has also led to a great shift in my healings. The work can now be done through touch as well as distance. In this way...the hands are able to do the same as the words from inside. They take the body with them wherever it is at the time.
And as always...this opening comes through practices. Everything always boils down to that here....
And also - being nurtured and inspired like I am by spiritual friendships makes a great, great difference.
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tonightsthenight
846 Posts |
Posted - Jun 23 2010 : 12:18:37 PM
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Great post Katrine.
It is also my experience that the higher you go, the more you are directed into the body.
My perspective is that the physical body is an integral part of our true nature, and it is a tool for spiritual progress. Transcending the body doesn't mean forgetting it... it means overcoming its limitations when when it is used by itself, for itself. A higher, spiritual intention with all things is key.
I can also empathize with you regarding those little things you find you are holding on to. We hold on to so much, and don't even realize it.
I think that next time i am able to spend time with my partner, that i will have a greater understanding of our sexual relationship, as well as a greater respect for its spiritual character. So in that sense, i know that it is a positive, growth oriented thing to spend time apart. Still, while i have developed patience in this regard, I strongly desire to spend time with her soon.
Christi, i agree that the most important thing is to surrender to the process. Looking back, there have been so many times when it was a surrender or die situation.
It is interesting how there are different types of bliss, as you say.
Refining the physical, material and daily activities and thoughts seems to really help clarify the bliss, so in that way, i think we can see how the body is such an important component of ourselves.
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Jun 24 2010 : 04:30:35 AM
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Hi tonightsthenight
Thanks for sharing and for your wise words.
This shift is very deep for me, and it feels like I have just begun to touch upon the implications of it.
For one thing - it includes a deeper layer of my sexuality, and that is bound to have consequences in daily life. It has never happened that the shifts are not met "out there", so knowing the wiseness of life, there is no way I can avoid that (not that I want to :)....it is a bit scary though.....it exposes a deep vulnerability 
I am on my way out the door to go to Tramore for my AYP Deep Meditation group and gatherings there, so don't have time right now, but will post more when I am back. After Tramore I go on a Gregory Kramer Insight dialogue retreat for a week. It will be interesting to see how that will deepen this recent shift .
I am very happy  |
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Panthau
Austria
149 Posts |
Posted - Jun 24 2010 : 07:02:24 AM
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Just want to throw in a quick question, regarding this topic, if you dont mind.
Is there a difference in the energy loss when doing masturbation versus sex with a partner? |
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tonightsthenight
846 Posts |
Posted - Jun 24 2010 : 09:49:36 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Panthau
Just want to throw in a quick question, regarding this topic, if you dont mind.
Is there a difference in the energy loss when doing masturbation versus sex with a partner?
I don't know the answer to that, simply because i don't practice tantra. But others on this thread are probably qualified to answer that.
My perspective, which is hardly an expert's, is that masturbation couldn't possibly be as beneficial as real, loving sex with a long term partner.
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Cipyar
USA
20 Posts |
Posted - Jun 29 2010 : 11:01:50 PM
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There are several fields of thought that believe going past lust is one of the hardest things for people to overcome, and required for "enlightenment"(among other things). Obviously not all will share this thought, however it is interesting to note that it is fairly unanimous among people. Deep down inside they do not want to give up their orgasms, it would be interesting to start a poll on this and see what people discover.
Something I have slowly come to realize, is that physical orgasm is something that the ego is very attached to. Not an authority here, just something I have noticed. Feel free to disagree with me. : )
I am currently in the process of let go of that, because I have become aware of it. At first I resisted the mere thought of giving up my precious orgasm, and because of that resistance it made me look deeper. Now, I want to at least "see" what living in a pre-orgasm state does for my spirit and its progress. I have read glorious things about shared sexual transmutation from many of the gurus of the major religions (taoism, buddhism, hinduism, early christianity etc.), but that it is likewise one of the most difficult practices to accept.
Everyone can choose which path to take, whatever looks the most comfortable; palatable. I strongly recommend at least giving this a valiant effort at least once in life, it may just hold the key to greater understanding and bliss within ourselves.
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Edited by - Cipyar on Jun 30 2010 02:37:17 AM |
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A question about Tantra and our destiny
