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jamuna
Australia
104 Posts |
 Posted - May 25 2010 : 04:17:26 AM
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My original understanding of enlightenment as influenced by more ancient texts has significantly shifted since hearing the same concepts spoken by western spiritual teachers. However I am still confused over the nature of enlightenment, is the general consensus that we remain human with all human weakness's yet posses cosmic or universal awareness. This concept has been on the forefront of my mind since learning of scandal's involving spiritual teachers, notably the husband of Gangaji, Eli jaxon- bear.
would an enlightened person cheat on their wife, is enlightenment even a factor. Does the nature of human temptation dissolve with enlightenment??? Yogani? Kirtanman? Whats is your experience? Does anyone else have any input? |
Edited by - jamuna on May 25 2010 4:58:35 PM |
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Jo-self
USA
225 Posts |
Posted - May 25 2010 : 6:55:26 PM
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As usual it depends. 
From my studies and few experiences, the ego-I does get obliterated, however, it returns since the physical body requires it. As such, unless all samskaras are burnt (which is rare), one is susceptible to all influence. One's transcendence and identity to That will always be there, of course. Its like a river blocked by a dam. Once you move the dam away the flow it would have had returns. So to, our bodies will continue the momentum of our lives. Just as an awakened one can be angry, why not other emotions or desires. Its the dance of life.
In the literature and legends the Enlightened are portrayed a certain way, all holy and such. Perhaps in reality they were all just nutty and appeared the exact opposite. The holy thing is a play that the unenlightened use.
And about cosmic and universal awareness. Nah, we just tacitly know that which IS. Any ass can see cosmic groovy stuff, even The Flying Spaghetti Monster, but only the wise can transcend it all.
Anyway, thats what I think at this moment, tomorrow it will be the exact opposite. In other words, other.
-- jo-self
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - May 25 2010 : 9:41:27 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by jamuna
My original understanding of enlightenment as influenced by more ancient texts has significantly shifted since hearing the same concepts spoken by western spiritual teachers. However I am still confused over the nature of enlightenment, is the general consensus that we remain human with all human weakness's yet posses cosmic or universal awareness. This concept has been on the forefront of my mind since learning of scandal's involving spiritual teachers, notably the husband of Gangaji, Eli jaxon- bear.
would an enlightened person cheat on their wife, is enlightenment even a factor. Does the nature of human temptation dissolve with enlightenment??? Yogani? Kirtanman? Whats is your experience? Does anyone else have any input?
Hi Jamuna,
Enlightenment is simply the conscious experiencing of our true nature as abiding non-dual awareness.
In so-called un-enlightenment, non-dual awareness is still the ground of being (if it weren't here, nothing else would be), it's just not consciously experienced.
And so, prior to enlightenment, true nature is thought to be mind-body; in enlightenment, true nature is known-experienced as (unbound)awareness-mind-body.
Mind is a sense, and not a self, as I have posted before.
Non-dual awareness is, literally, living unbound -- caitanyamatma -- self is unbound awareness, as Shiva Sutras 1.1 states so accurately and succinctly.
And so, the stress, confusion and illusion that plague the dream-self ("I am who I think and feel I am") are absent in the experiencing of enlightenment.
Does this mean that constriction is never experienced, in the general living of enlightenment?
No, it doesn't mean that at all. Just as eyes can squint, and fists can clench, minds can think ... and there can be disproportionate focus on form (thoughts, feelings, bodies, circumstances, etc.), but if and when this happens, it is known for what it is, and therefore, usually released fairly quickly and easily, and not unduly evaluated while it is being experienced.
However, this doesn't mean that it's possible, at all, to determine someone's degree of enlightenment from observing their external behavior; enlightenment is subjective (internally experienced); there's really nothing that external observation can tell you about it.
Having said that, though, authentic enlightenment is literally the experiencing of the oneness of all -- and so, egoic behavior tends to not even arise as interesting, but that doesn't mean there's not a sense of self, or the appearance of a personality. For instance, many people have criticized Nisargadatta Maharaj for everything from his shouting at satsang attendees, to his daily devotion to his guru, to his smoking, as "unenlightened" behavior. Nisargadatta didn't seem to be concerned in the least; he just kept on enjoying and sharing enlightenment, and reminding those who listened to him that evaluation is dreaming.
In enlightenment, life can be lived (and to a certain degree, is lived) via personality and conditioning, but no longer as personality and conditioning.
And so, rather than looking to a given spiritual teacher, or any other person, and attempting to evaluate with mind whether or not they are "enlightened" (an impossible task, since the reality of liberated awareness, aka enlightenment, begins where even the most cosmically-conscious mind leaves off), I wholeheartedly recommend continuing practices and inquiry with unswerving dedication, until you know enlightenment in your own experiencing.
Ultimately, nothing anyone else says or does matters at all, especially with respect to enlightenment. Even a relatively clear mental understanding of enlightenment doesn't matter at all ... because enlightenment cannot be mentally understood, and understanding of any kind doesn't move you one iota closer to enlightenment .... only leaving thought, thinking and mind behind allows the enlightenment that is always ever here, to reveal itself in experiencing.
And, by the way, I'm not evading your original question ... I'm simply attempting to answer it in a way that can hopefully be truly useful for you.
The only people who could possibly comment on the affair-related experience of Eli Jaxon-Bear and Gangaji are (you guessed it, I'm sure ) .... Eli Jaxon-Bear and Gangaji. I'm more familiar with Gangaji than Eli, and am not clear on whether or not Eli has ever indicated that he feels he's enlightened, or not.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
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Christi
United Kingdom
4430 Posts |
Posted - May 27 2010 : 3:33:01 PM
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Hi Jamuna,
Anyone can fall at any point during the enlightenment process. Even during the Christing one can fall, hense the bible story of Jesus being tempted in the desert. Even angels can fall, as Lucifer did. So we all need to be careful, at every stage on the path. What is often called "enlightenment" is actually one of the most dangerous stages on the path. The superficial and objectified ego which is encountered at the beginning of the path can be replaced by a more subtle, and powerful spiritual ego, which can corrupt the aspirant who is not careful.
The good news is that anyone who falls off the path can recover from the fall and continue upwards as it seems Eli Jaxon-Bear is doing with the support of his wife.
Christi |
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Chris Wallace
Philippines
6 Posts |
Posted - May 30 2010 : 04:57:31 AM
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Jamuna,
It's a good question you pose. I'm going to reply first, then look at see what others have already written to you on the subject. I would love to hear some direct feedback on my view of enlightenment if anyone finds it interesting.
From my understanding, the definition of enlightenment varies and there are different aspects and opinions on what it means; to some leading a "moral" life and going by religious scripture play by play, could be considered a form of enlightenment.
From my understanding, it means this- "Having a complete intellectual understanding of thought/consciousness and its relationship to the material universe (knowing that the world itself and observation of the world are two sides of the same coin) PLUS the physiological/metaphysical Awakening of the body".
For me these two aspects are like wheels of a cart and really make the person "roll" with enlightenment. But hey- maybe I'm looking at a cart, as opposed to a rocket ship (maybe my idea is primitive compared to those of someone far wiser).
So personally, I don't think social behavior is a deciding factor on enlightenment. But others could rightfully disagree by their own definition.
CW |
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jamuna
Australia
104 Posts |
Posted - Jul 01 2010 : 04:03:18 AM
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Ok I hadn't checked this since Kirtanman replied but thanks for your input Chris, Christi, Kirtanman and Jo-self, even with so much evidence to the contrary including ample personal experience doubt of the worth of ones actions can still arise and this is what I experienced when learning of Eli's affair as I had been dedicating a lot of time to Gangaji's teachings at the time, it didn't deter me from the path though and I gradually worked through those feelings. Thank you very much for responding though this forum has been a blessing to me many times.
Jai inner guru ;) |
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alwayson2
USA
546 Posts |
Posted - Jul 01 2010 : 08:55:48 AM
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| The nature of enlightenment is simply distinguishing crystal clear purity from mind |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Jul 01 2010 : 2:08:18 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by jamuna
would an enlightened person cheat on their wife, is enlightenment even a factor. Does the nature of human temptation dissolve with enlightenment??? Yogani? Kirtanman? Whats is your experience? Does anyone else have any input?
 Action without thought, thought without action. Things get done, thought has no part of it. Neither is a thought followed by an action.
Temptation and cheating are judgements. The judgement dissolves and so does the temptation. Both dissolve, that is the nature of it. The match stick is burned and the flame is extinguished at the same time, nothing is left to burn and no flame is left to burn it.
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jul 01 2010 : 10:12:40 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by karl
quote:
Originally posted by jamuna
would an enlightened person cheat on their wife, is enlightenment even a factor. Does the nature of human temptation dissolve with enlightenment??? Yogani? Kirtanman? Whats is your experience? Does anyone else have any input?
Action without thought, thought without action. Things get done, thought has no part of it. Neither is a thought followed by an action.
Temptation and cheating are judgements. The judgement dissolves and so does the temptation. Both dissolve, that is the nature of it. The match stick is burned and the flame is extinguished at the same time, nothing is left to burn and no flame is left to burn it.
Nicely put, Karl; I agree, and I would add:
Ultimately, "the one tempted", and "the one judging" dissolve, as well.
Perceiver, Perceiving and Perception arise and subside together; a package deal. Only thinking can obscure the clear awareness underlying all experience (waking, dreaming and deep sleep states).
Value-judgments are an effect of ego; ego is an effect of conditioned ignorance.
In the ego-dream, we essentially have:
Awareness-{Ego-Evaluating-Conditioning}-Actuality.
Without the ego-dream, we have:
Awareness-Actuality.
Very simple; perfect, really.
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jamuna
Australia
104 Posts |
Posted - Jul 03 2010 : 06:25:40 AM
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quote:
Action without thought, thought without action. Things get done, thought has no part of it. Neither is a thought followed by an action.
Temptation and cheating are judgements. The judgement dissolves and so does the temptation. Both dissolve, that is the nature of it. The match stick is burned and the flame is extinguished at the same time, nothing is left to burn and no flame is left to burn it.
haha
Thanks Karl that hit the spot, big smiles & laughter
& thanks Kirtanman your posts are always great
and yes more laughter |
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The nature of enlightenment
