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alwayson2
USA
546 Posts |
 Posted - May 08 2010 : 10:46:54 AM
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My understanding of certain buddhist teaching is this.
There is a self-affirming and discerning clarity beyond the conceptual mind.
This clarity does not have a real existence however, therefore it cannot be constructed by stilling the mind or through meditation. It is is also different than being "present", if your presence is at the level of the conceptual mind.
However if you are aware of this clarity (which is said to be self-affirming) you can do whatever you want, including stilling the mind.
I believe stilling the mind is more of a yogic process to access siddhis like clairvoyance. Which is fine, because yoga is necessary to achieve omniscient Buddhahood. |
Edited by - alwayson2 on May 08 2010 11:00:42 AM |
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chsmithe
USA
32 Posts |
Posted - May 08 2010 : 12:05:01 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by karl
Yes, one moment a Pirate, one moment pure consciousness, both are simply thoughts. It's a story and one story is as good as the next. Accepting each story as it comes and goes, each situation that is faced and welcome it.
Yea, i resonate with this. I've sometimes wondered if just the whole notion that everything is One and the idea that you have an ego to transcend is all just some silly story that i manifested into reality. It could have just as easily been any other story.
But there's got to be some truth to it right? Like, i undergo the EXPERIENCE in day-to-day life that it's all actually one. But what if that experience is only happening simply because it's a belief structure that i've created and illuminated?
No different than when i was growing up i never really had this idea that everything was truley actually a Mirror of everything else and thus i had the experience and belief structure of seperation.
But ultimately it seems like both are just as meaningless as the other. Perhaps it would be wrong to say that Oneness is closer to some "truth" than seperation is. I just happen to enjoy the projection of oneness a lot more i would have to say.
But it's some strange thoughts that leave me completely empty handed. |
Edited by - chsmithe on May 08 2010 12:17:13 PM |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - May 08 2010 : 2:45:36 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by chsmithe
But ultimately it seems like both are just as meaningless as the other. Perhaps it would be wrong to say that Oneness is closer to some "truth" than seperation is. I just happen to enjoy the projection of oneness a lot more i would have to say.
 There is nothing to say other than to follow the program, follow your guru, do what needs doing. Seek and you shall find.
My thoughts cannot help you. Just continue following the routine until one day you wake up laughing like a demented idiot at the absurdity of it and crying with the magnificence, beauty and love of it.
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tonightsthenight
846 Posts |
Posted - May 11 2010 : 9:35:45 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by yogani
Hi tonightsthenight:
Ultimate answers about spirituality cannot be found in the mind, or in any conceptual knowledge, though we all love to try. They can only be found in the cultivation of abiding inner silence. Then the paradoxes of spirituality make perfect sense. It is a knowing that happens as we become the unknown. The mind can never get this conceptually, but it can be fulfilled. The mind finds fulfillment by experiencing its source, by merging with it, and moving in it. That's why deep meditation is the first practice in AYP.
And this is not to say we should not be out in the world using our gifts and enjoying the journey as we may like. Everyone has their own life to live. Absolutely! It's just better to operate from the infinite source that is our essential nature than from a patchwork of mental structures. Way better. 
So make sure you have a solid meditation practice, and all the rest will come. "Seek first the kingdom..."
The guru is in you.
Hi Yogani,
I don't know that we disagree here, but i think i feel that you put too heavy of a focus on the inner silence aspect. For me, this gnosis, for that is what i think you mean when you say "the knowing", is found through a combination of finding the inner silence in meditation and then experiencing what i learn in the world. Without both there is no gnosis. I have never found gnosis solely through the internal, because that is what a baby could also know. Instead, i find it through living in the world with a hard core spiritual foundation.
That is what i was getting at in response to Karl (sorry Karl, i reread my post and it sounds much harsher than i intended  )... if one were to go to a cave and meditate for all of his/her days than great ... but its missing the point of life ... and missing out on the chance to find true gnosis |
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chsmithe
USA
32 Posts |
Posted - May 11 2010 : 11:56:58 PM
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Agreed^, but you can also just witness the Silence all around you in the world too, and see that you are That.
So it's good to meditate to sort of "recharge the batteries" so to speak, meaning a direct sort of "practice" to tap into the infinite source, but in my opinion there's no reason that you shouldn't make your entire life its own "meditation". So i agree with both of you guys. |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - May 12 2010 : 04:06:34 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by tonightsthenight
Hi Yogani,
I don't know that we disagree here, but i think i feel that you put too heavy of a focus on the inner silence aspect. For me, this gnosis, for that is what i think you mean when you say "the knowing", is found through a combination of finding the inner silence in meditation and then experiencing what i learn in the world. Without both there is no gnosis. I have never found gnosis solely through the internal, because that is what a baby could also know. Instead, i find it through living in the world with a hard core spiritual foundation.
That is what i was getting at in response to Karl (sorry Karl, i reread my post and it sounds much harsher than i intended )... if one were to go to a cave and meditate for all of his/her days than great ... but its missing the point of life ... and missing out on the chance to find true gnosis
There are no hard and fast rules to it. If one way works for you then that's the way to follow.
I used the AYP method which is only two short periods of DM per day and after a series of twists, turns and internal struggles clarity reigned.
Having been through this, my experience is that the establishment of 'silence' was a necessary part. Unlike many who seem to understand perfectly what the silence is all about I really did not and just accepted it was needed. Even now, trying to understand quite why that produced change is all a bit muddy although on some level I know it helped me differentiate thoughts at a finer level.
Balancing everyday life with deep meditation is healthy and encouraged. There is certainly no need to devote time to sitting in a cave unless someone feels that is a necessary part of the process for them individually and it isn't part of AYP practise. However there is nothing to indicate that a purely internal approach is impossible either.
Of course how you perceive these words is quite a mind bend Like having a discussion with your reflection. Part of the process never the less.
Namaste
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tonightsthenight
846 Posts |
Posted - May 12 2010 : 5:14:14 PM
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Well said, Karl. 
I agree that the "Silence" is a necessary part. Its the foundation.
I have a pretty disagreeable combination of characteristics... i am ultra-sensitive, and highly ambitious.
The path i've chosen (or the path that chose me) is not easy for me given my sensitive/ambitious nature.
I've learned to see value in the external world, because i cannot "learn my lessons" from a purely internal place. I absolutely need that tension between inner and outer in order to understand. If i focus only on the inner, i go to crazyville. If i focus only on the outer, i become very ungrounded very very quickly. So for me, much much more than for the regular person, I need that dynamic between the two...
So i suppose you should take my perspective with a grain of salt! |
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chsmithe
USA
32 Posts |
Posted - May 12 2010 : 7:36:39 PM
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Dude, i totally get that, so much.^
I'm waaaay too sensitive, but i'm intensely ambitious.
Every day is a constant battle between the awareness of the moment and my inner tension/inner flow to the moment.
It's such insignificant things that bother me though, and that's HIGHLY, let me repeat, HIGHLY frustrating and irritating when i'm so very ambitious.
I just want to move beyond all of these subtle nuances that demand my attention. I really don't even care about them, but my inner body does, and when the tension arises within me it is in exact accordance with some relatively lame and melancholic external experience.
And i take it so personally too, i blame it all on myself, as if its my fault. Like only had i not looked at some stupid thing that caused the inner resistance then the whole moment would have been so much more fun and connected. Instead just some lame crust manifests to the surface.
I'm so tired of the dead crust. So damn tired of it.
I'd rather be terrified and extremely nervous than have this ridiculous subtle and frustrating resistance all the time.
I don't know how to COMPLETELY and 100 percent rise above this dilemma for good, though i do feel that i'm "close". Not sure what else to say about that. |
Edited by - chsmithe on May 12 2010 7:44:54 PM |
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cosmic
USA
821 Posts |
Posted - May 12 2010 : 11:16:34 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by tonightsthenight
I've learned to see value in the external world, because i cannot "learn my lessons" from a purely internal place.
Who can? This "external" world you speak of is the only place to actualize what we learn. Without that, all knowledge is dead knowledge (or theory).
I see nothing disagreeable in what you're saying.
Peace
cosmic |
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tonightsthenight
846 Posts |
Posted - May 13 2010 : 01:47:17 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by cosmic
quote:
Originally posted by tonightsthenight
I've learned to see value in the external world, because i cannot "learn my lessons" from a purely internal place.
Who can? This "external" world you speak of is the only place to actualize what we learn. Without that, all knowledge is dead knowledge (or theory).
I see nothing disagreeable in what you're saying.
Peace
cosmic
Hehehe! Indeed, Cosmic 
I feel that some people here tend to overstate the importance of the "inner silence" in order to cater to the inexperienced spiritual seeksers - which is prudent , so maybe i over-emphasize the importance of both the inner and outer
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chsmithe
USA
32 Posts |
Posted - May 13 2010 : 02:49:29 AM
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| I think the realization is that there's no division between the inner and the outer. There's no difference. |
Edited by - chsmithe on May 13 2010 2:28:17 PM |
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tonightsthenight
846 Posts |
Posted - May 13 2010 : 04:12:53 AM
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i don't agree with that.
i have never had the experience that the inner world and outer world are the same.
of course, at the ultimate levels of consciousness, yes, you can say that, but that is true of everything, not just internal/external. but for the purposes of life on earth, they are not the same, and they work in different ways.
hence the reason for both an inner and an outer; they are quite different!
have you had an experience of the inner and outer worlds being the same thing? |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - May 13 2010 : 05:51:09 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by tonightsthenight
i don't agree with that.
i have never had the experience that the inner world and outer world are the same.
of course, at the ultimate levels of consciousness, yes, you can say that, but that is true of everything, not just internal/external. but for the purposes of life on earth, they are not the same, and they work in different ways.
hence the reason for both an inner and an outer; they are quite different!
have you had an experience of the inner and outer worlds being the same thing?
No one can show you that. However if you imagine slicing into a bitter lemon and seeing the juices running out and then put that lemon into your mouth and chew on it. You will likely get the sensation of chewing a lemon even though there is no lemon in sight.
This feeling of chewing a lemon, the lemon itself and all thoughts connected to lemons are unique to you. No one else can chew a lemon in the same way. When you see a lemon you put your own internal representation on it.
If we look on a scientific level a lemon is just a collection of tiny vibrations of energy, the weight and mass are determined by gravity and your association with gravity (something else that has no source as such but you also hold an internal representation of gravity), there is no colour to it yet you percieve colour (the colour is yet another internal representation). You can only see one side of the lemon but your brain sculpts it into a 3 Dimensional shape- you think there is another side even though you cannot determine there is.
Yet, for whatever reason there stands a nice yellow lemon and you know what it smells like and tastes like, how heavy it will be in your hand. Everything through your senses and materialised as your thoughts about lemons.
All this does not matter in the long run. You accept gravity is there and that a lemon is yellow and bitter. You accept time as something linear.
These things you accept and so they have no bearing on how you feel about the world until you offer a judgement. It is this judgement that leads to suffering. When you begin to see those judgement thoughts for what they really are then you cannot help but conclude all other thoughts are no different.
It is only necessary to accept your own reality without judgement. Love is without judgement which is why it is so powerful.
(If someone told me I would be saying these things 4 years ago!) |
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chsmithe
USA
32 Posts |
Posted - May 13 2010 : 2:27:52 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by tonightsthenight
i don't agree with that.
i have never had the experience that the inner world and outer world are the same.
of course, at the ultimate levels of consciousness, yes, you can say that, but that is true of everything, not just internal/external. but for the purposes of life on earth, they are not the same, and they work in different ways.
hence the reason for both an inner and an outer; they are quite different!
have you had an experience of the inner and outer worlds being the same thing?
Yes, all the time. The only struggle of mine that i've ever really had is just to continously break down this PERCEIVED barrier or division between the two.
But i can legitly say that i've perceived and experienced many many times that there is no difference between the two.
If you want me to go into further detail i will gladly do so.
Just thinking out loud here...but i've experienced and perceived that there is a barrier, i've experienced and perceived the breaking down of the barrier, and i've experienced and perceived that there is no barrier. But ultimately, all of these experiences are just as "meaningless" as the other. I'm using meaningless for lack of a better word. Perhaps the better word is Empty?
But the point is, all of those experiences are happening within the Witness. They're all being watched by something. |
Edited by - chsmithe on May 13 2010 2:42:02 PM |
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tonightsthenight
846 Posts |
Posted - May 13 2010 : 3:50:42 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by chsmithe
quote:
Originally posted by tonightsthenight
i don't agree with that.
i have never had the experience that the inner world and outer world are the same.
of course, at the ultimate levels of consciousness, yes, you can say that, but that is true of everything, not just internal/external. but for the purposes of life on earth, they are not the same, and they work in different ways.
hence the reason for both an inner and an outer; they are quite different!
have you had an experience of the inner and outer worlds being the same thing?
Yes, all the time. The only struggle of mine that i've ever really had is just to continously break down this PERCEIVED barrier or division between the two.
But i can legitly say that i've perceived and experienced many many times that there is no difference between the two.
If you want me to go into further detail i will gladly do so.
Just thinking out loud here...but i've experienced and perceived that there is a barrier, i've experienced and perceived the breaking down of the barrier, and i've experienced and perceived that there is no barrier. But ultimately, all of these experiences are just as "meaningless" as the other. I'm using meaningless for lack of a better word. Perhaps the better word is Empty?
But the point is, all of those experiences are happening within the Witness. They're all being watched by something.
I would enjoy it if you could go into further detail! Its interesting for me, because this is a dynamic that i am currently facing... and i have never had the experience of the outer and inner being the same exact thing. One thing, that is.
There are myriad connections between the two, obviously. They work in concert... but it would be great to hear more about your perspective |
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chsmithe
USA
32 Posts |
Posted - May 17 2010 : 7:54:59 PM
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Ok, sorry that i've taken so long to respond.
Basically i go through perceptions where my body is clearly not limited to my individual body but extends to everything else around me. So inner and outer worlds kind of lose meaning because there's just reality, and there's not really any content that makes up my inner world vs. my outer world, and vice versa. They're just LITERALLY the same thing.
It includes my invidual body but it doesn't stop there. |
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