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chsmithe
USA
32 Posts |
 Posted - May 04 2010 : 2:07:30 PM
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Just generally speaking, I understand that many spiritual traditions and teachers will emphasize No-Mind, and i understand that i think that the main point is to not derive your identity from the psychological virtual reality known as mind.
But much of the time (though certainly not all of the time), i simply enjoy very much to just think to myself. I get many creative and really cool and out-there thoughts all the time, and i enjoy "conversing with myself" no differently than i enjoy conversing with others or listening to music.
I'm just making sure that it's ok to think isn't it? Like i shouldn't be trying to stop every thought that comes into my head right? (which is damn near impossible anyway)
I've just always been under the notion that i should just stop and observe my thinking when it begins to stress me out, but in no way is it true that i should stop thinking altogether.
I've also kind of assumed that once you reach a certain state of Stillness that No-Mind will just happen on its own, so i shouldn't really try too hard to get to that place. I mean the whole point is to allow everything to be as it is right? In many ways anyway. I'm sure that's not the entire point, since it's infinite.
But allowing everything to be as it is should include thinking, correct? Besides, as i already stated, i enjoy my mind much of the time, and i wouldn't want to stop my mind from thinking unless i happen to just naturally come to a place where it happens to stop all its own, and i'm not sure whether that place is real or not yet.
Just need some clarification here.
Thanks!
-Chris S |
Edited by - chsmithe on May 04 2010 3:25:52 PM |
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cosmic
USA
821 Posts |
Posted - May 04 2010 : 5:54:43 PM
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Hi Chris 
There's nothing wrong with thinking. It's what the mind does, and as you mentioned, stopping thoughts is nearly impossible. It sounds like the inner conversing doesn't bother you, so no need to worry about it.
In my experience, as inner silence grew from meditation, I went through phases. When inner silence was first tasted, thoughts were strongly noticed and it really bothered me. At some point, I grew tired of the thoughts and just wanted peace. The thoughts became less and less, and eventually started to lose power.
Thoughts still happen, but I notice them and see through them. They don't disturb me like they once did, and I can release them if I remember to. Most of the time I just let them happen and see that they aren't me.
But this all happened naturally through meditation. If I had tried to just release thoughts and "not be disturbed by them" at the beginning, it probably wouldn't have worked.
My long way of saying: Yes, thoughts will lessen naturally. Thinking doesn't stop completely, but it won't disturb you when it happens.
Hope this helps!
Love
cosmic |
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Clear White Light
USA
229 Posts |
Posted - May 04 2010 : 8:16:33 PM
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| There is nothing inherently wrong with thinking, just as there is nothing inherently wrong with any particular thing. It is our relationship with our thoughts that determines whether our thinking is useful to us or not. You're right in thinking that you should not attempt to suppress the thought process. This can result in mental illness. The key is to be able to witness the thoughts without having to habitually participate in them. When we have enough inner silence to begin to choose which thoughts we will engage in, and which are best left to float by, then the way we experience our mind will begin to change. The frequency and intensity of our thoughts will begin to decrease; Not because of some conscious effort we make to suppress the thought process, but because of the degree to which we have dissolved our mental and emotional obstructions. Less mental conditioning means less desire and attachment. Less desire and attachment means less thoughts. |
Edited by - Clear White Light on May 04 2010 10:39:54 PM |
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wakeupneo
USA
171 Posts |
Posted - May 04 2010 : 10:49:31 PM
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There is a few ways of looking at this. Incessant thinking probably isn't the best for stablizing one's identity in pure consciousness/silience.
Every thought you have assumes that you are real and tangible, ergo reinforces the false self. Many of the advaitic paths... Nisargadatta, Ramana, Aziz Kristof to talk about a process of constant self rememberance, not getting lost in the mind.
On the flip side, I've known people who have been institutionalized as a result of trying to stop thinking...
So it's a fine line. As a rule of thumb I try to not let myself get too unconscious.
Keep bringing it back... "I AM" "Who am I?" you are the one perceiving the thoughts, thoughts are nothing more than the sum total of all your past experiences. It's like having a tape recorder in your head. Just know this and see it for what it is. |
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chsmithe
USA
32 Posts |
Posted - May 04 2010 : 11:07:42 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by wakeupneo
There is a few ways of looking at this. Incessant thinking probably isn't the best for stablizing one's identity in pure consciousness/silience.
Every thought you have assumes that you are real and tangible, ergo reinforces the false self. Many of the advaitic paths... Nisargadatta, Ramana, Aziz Kristof to talk about a process of constant self rememberance, not getting lost in the mind.
On the flip side, I've known people who have been institutionalized as a result of trying to stop thinking...
So it's a fine line. As a rule of thumb I try to not let myself get too unconscious.
Keep bringing it back... "I AM" "Who am I?" you are the one perceiving the thoughts, thoughts are nothing more than the sum total of all your past experiences. It's like having a tape recorder in your head. Just know this and see it for what it is.
I agree with everything you said other than the fact that "thoughts are nothing more than the sum total of all your past experiences". While this is certainly true, it's not only true.
I get many thoughts regarding nothing that has ever even happened in my life. Thoughts of the future, hypothetical situations, etc.
This actually leads me to the topic of Parallel Universes and Multiverses, and whether its true or not that in the vast and infinite space of Emptiness that every thought and every possibility that i think of, whether it be past or future, actually exists out there as soon as i think of it, or perhaps even before i think of it in the Unmanifest or "Noumenal" realm.
A simple and random example would be the thought that tomorrow when i get up out of bed i will grab an axe and throw it into my backyard. perhaps as soon as i think of that thought it actually occurs somewhere out there in the universe, but NOW, not tomorrow. This also means that tomorrow, with all of its different possible outcomes, actually exists right NOW. This moment.
To elaborate, I also have thoughts relating to the ideas that Time is more like a circle or a spiral rather than a linear line, and that Past, Present, and Future all exist in the eternal NOW. That means that every possibility in the future actually IS right this moment, and the same goes with the past.
Sorry, i know much of this doesn't really apply to AYP, but it's important to me simply because it all relates back to the Source of all that IS, and i would imagine that that has some relevance on this forum.
I love to be playful with all of these theories and to hold none of it as sacred, meaning that i'm totally willing to be wrong about any and all of them, and in the meantime it's simply fun and mind-blowing to explore these options. |
Edited by - chsmithe on May 04 2010 11:32:44 PM |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - May 05 2010 : 07:46:10 AM
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Although you can think thoughts of things that you have never experienced, the source of the thoughts comes from past experience. For instance, if you were born blind, it is hard to think about seeing things. The born blind person can speculate about all kinds of wild ideas of what seeing is, but he can't experience it.
Thinking is an addiction. It is also a tool that is very useful sometimes. But as an addiction, the more we use it the harder it is to let go of it.
Letting go of thinking is not done by conecntrating on that concept, because concentrating on a concept is a kind of thinking.
It is done by meditating on a mantra. Your mind will still think, but the thoughts will fade into the distance so that your inner silence can be experienced, which is the real you.
No amount of thinking can get you to that place. |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - May 05 2010 : 10:06:35 AM
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Are you not thinking when you are meditating ?
Meditation is simply focused thinking.
The cessation of all thought occurs in deep sleep when awareness of the universe and of self disappears. On awakening of the self, the universe wakes up to. There is no mystery in what 'not' thinking feels like, because you do it constantly.
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wakeupneo
USA
171 Posts |
Posted - May 05 2010 : 1:33:29 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by karl
Are you not thinking when you are meditating ?
Meditation is simply focused thinking.
The cessation of all thought occurs in deep sleep when awareness of the universe and of self disappears. On awakening of the self, the universe wakes up to. There is no mystery in what 'not' thinking feels like, because you do it constantly.
Your not thinking your emboding the thinker...
In ever day like all of our interactions are on a subject object basis. There is the object of our attention and then the subject perceiving. This subject perceiving is consciousness. The goal od mediation is instead of being conscious of this or that wou just BE consciousness itself. The subject object relationship ceases and it's a purely subjective experience... You are fully the subject, ergo you are fully yourself.
this is my take |
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chsmithe
USA
32 Posts |
Posted - May 05 2010 : 6:42:08 PM
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Yea, i agree with all of your posts. Thank you for the advice.
I find meditation useful, but i also try not to rely too much upon it, but rather merge the I AM with every aspect of my existence. It's getting to a point where i've realized that the Stillness is very predominant these days, and just my "identity" is just merging with every aspect of my existence.
But as a personal self, i find it very useful to be quite rooted in the inner body. My biggest struggle with this though is i pop in and out of inner body resistance vs. inner body flow. This has been quite a frustrating phase as i constantly feel as if i've "got it" and "lost it" again. Adyashanti talks very much about this.
But the inner body is sort of my main point of where i move from, my main sort of HQ so to speak. |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - May 06 2010 : 04:41:34 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by wakeupneo
quote:
Originally posted by karl
Are you not thinking when you are meditating ?
Meditation is simply focused thinking.
The cessation of all thought occurs in deep sleep when awareness of the universe and of self disappears. On awakening of the self, the universe wakes up to. There is no mystery in what 'not' thinking feels like, because you do it constantly.
Your not thinking your emboding the thinker...
The subject object relationship ceases and it's a purely subjective experience... You are fully the subject, ergo you are fully yourself.
this is my take
How can you be anything other than fully yourself ? if you already are yourself then why are you trying to become yourself ? Why not just be exactly what you already are ?
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manigma
India
1065 Posts |
Posted - May 06 2010 : 07:19:33 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by chsmithe
...but in no way is it true that i should stop thinking altogether.
But allowing everything to be as it is should include thinking, correct? Besides, as i already stated, i enjoy my mind much of the time, and i wouldn't want to stop my mind from thinking unless i happen to just naturally come to a place where it happens to stop all its own, and i'm not sure whether that place is real or not yet.
-Chris S
What will happen if you stop breathing?
Breathing and Thinking are related.
Breathe naturally, Think naturally.
And one day you will come to a place where thinking/mind stops altogether... when you have gone beyond your body/mind.
This process is as natural as you can be.
Even if shifted aside, the algae do not lose time in covering the water again. Similarly, even if a wise man swerves from his allegiance to natural rhythm even for a little while, illusions cover him.
http://www.balbro.com/heart/beat5.htm |
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chsmithe
USA
32 Posts |
Posted - May 06 2010 : 11:09:40 AM
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Do you imply that you also go beyond breathing too? (suddenly feels claustraphobic)  |
Edited by - chsmithe on May 06 2010 11:15:54 AM |
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manigma
India
1065 Posts |
Posted - May 06 2010 : 11:44:52 AM
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No, then you will simply realise that you never breathed.
And for the first time you will *really* start breathing. |
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Clear White Light
USA
229 Posts |
Posted - May 06 2010 : 11:51:48 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by chsmithe
Do you imply that you also go beyond breathing too? (suddenly feels claustraphobic)
Yes, that can happen as well. :) |
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chsmithe
USA
32 Posts |
Posted - May 06 2010 : 4:30:15 PM
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| So why did it get so off in the first place? Why are we born into Samsara? Why must we make this epic pilgrimage back to the Source? And also, aren't i bound to forget my Self all over again? Even after i've achieved what they call "Enlightenment"? |
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Clear White Light
USA
229 Posts |
Posted - May 06 2010 : 6:09:13 PM
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| If not for "samsara", what would there be? An underlying, infinite yet unexpressed life potential? It seems like you're asking why should there be life at all. I don't think that's a question you're going to find a very satisfactory answer to. The closest I've come is an understanding that life exists simply for it's own sake. It is obviously within the nature of the universe to bring forth life, because here we are. The universe, just like all things, does what is within it's nature to do. As for attaining enlightenment, enlightenment is not something which is fixed and unchanging. The universe, just prior to the manifestation of the first primordial matter, could have been said to be in a state of "enlightenment". Yet the universe brought forth life anyway. Why is this? Think about it.. |
Edited by - Clear White Light on May 06 2010 6:16:42 PM |
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chsmithe
USA
32 Posts |
Posted - May 06 2010 : 7:43:12 PM
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Yea, i get the terms mixed up. But i guess what i mean is why are we born into the illusive nature of seperation? i mean, we're not, but we pick it up quite quickly.
But then basically that just means i'm asking why is the world not Awake? But truley, it already is.
I guess it's too great of a discovery. I probably wouldn't want it any other way than to make the majestic voyage. |
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wakeupneo
USA
171 Posts |
Posted - May 06 2010 : 11:00:21 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by karl
quote:
Originally posted by wakeupneo
quote:
Originally posted by karl
Are you not thinking when you are meditating ?
Meditation is simply focused thinking.
The cessation of all thought occurs in deep sleep when awareness of the universe and of self disappears. On awakening of the self, the universe wakes up to. There is no mystery in what 'not' thinking feels like, because you do it constantly.
Your not thinking your emboding the thinker...
The subject object relationship ceases and it's a purely subjective experience... You are fully the subject, ergo you are fully yourself.
this is my take
How can you be anything other than fully yourself ? if you already are yourself then why are you trying to become yourself ? Why not just be exactly what you already are ?
This is another absolute/relative debate. The fact that we are on a message board discussing these things is evidence that seperation has occured. Why are we on message boards? Practicing, discussing, cultivating, purifying? These very actions and interations between each other in themselves are testament that on the relative we have forgotten ourSelves... John and Karl are not ourSelves, but figments of the imagination. Perhaps you can say identification. If I dressed up in a pirate costume and thought I was a pirate and reacted when things in the pirate life effected me, reacted when my identity as a pirate was threatened, all of my interactions were based on my illusory pirate life...true on the absolute level I wouldn't be a pirate, but on the realitive there is a gross error in mistaken identity. Overlooking this fact is spiritual and intellectual hypocrisy.
It's the same as saying that an alcoholic isn't an alcoholic, or a skitzopheric is sane...yeah, but is that their reality?
Sure you might say you know yourSelf, but is that your experience? Have you fully integrated into the Self (this isn't simply awakening to your true nature - which in reality is nothing but the entry point to enlightenment)? Does the story of "me" wake up in the morning? Is there a constant process of self-referal going on? Is the mind constantly looking into the past to create one's identity in the present?
I have yet to meet a neo-advaita teacher in person that is fully rooted in reality. Intellectually they have it down pat, experientially it's a totally different story. They have the realization that they are pure consciousness and think that's end game... |
Edited by - wakeupneo on May 07 2010 07:18:15 AM |
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manigma
India
1065 Posts |
Posted - May 07 2010 : 01:16:24 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by chsmithe
So why did it get so off in the first place? Why are we born into Samsara? Why must we make this epic pilgrimage back to the Source? And also, aren't i bound to forget my Self all over again? Even after i've achieved what they call "Enlightenment"?
I can understand your questions and they are good. But these are being asked by someone who is asleep and dreaming.
Such questions simply vanish when you awake.
You have never known the Self. So how can you forget it?
You think that coming out from your mother's womb is your birth into this Samsara?
No.
You are still inside a womb and the name of that womb is your Ego.
The day you break free from it, it will be your real birth. |
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Clear White Light
USA
229 Posts |
Posted - May 07 2010 : 08:17:59 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by chsmithe
Yea, i get the terms mixed up. But i guess what i mean is why are we born into the illusive nature of seperation? i mean, we're not, but we pick it up quite quickly.
It is the only way to be born. Into seperation, I mean. You cannot be "born" into the unmanifest. Only that which is manifest is born. The absolute, by it's very nature cannot be manifest in physical reality. If it were, it would be subject to change and decay like all other manifested things. |
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tonightsthenight
846 Posts |
Posted - May 07 2010 : 1:40:23 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by chsmithe
Yea, i get the terms mixed up. But i guess what i mean is why are we born into the illusive nature of seperation? i mean, we're not, but we pick it up quite quickly.
But then basically that just means i'm asking why is the world not Awake? But truley, it already is.
I guess it's too great of a discovery. I probably wouldn't want it any other way than to make the majestic voyage.
Hey man, what it comes down to is this:
The mind is a tool, and thinking is what it does. You can no more stop yourself from having another thought than you can stop yourself from having another breath. Its part of the human condition, its part of who we are on this earth.
Thinking is good. In fact, if we were all born with complete liberation without the species going through the "illusion" of maya, we'd all be running around with the consciousness of a 10g mushroom trip. We wouldn't think, we'd just do. We'd be having tons of fun, and we'd be totally connected to the source. But we'd never create this complex global society that has/will revolutionize this planet.
No Maya = No thinking = No Evolution.
So go ahead and think! The point is to get your mind under your control and no the other way around!
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - May 07 2010 : 3:50:03 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by wakeupneo
Are you not thinking when you are meditating ?
Meditation is simply focused thinking.
The cessation of all thought occurs in deep sleep when awareness of the universe and of self disappears. On awakening of the self, the universe wakes up to. There is no mystery in what 'not' thinking feels like, because you do it constantly.
quote:
Originally posted by karl
Your not thinking your emboding the thinker...
The subject object relationship ceases and it's a purely subjective experience... You are fully the subject, ergo you are fully yourself.
this is my take
quote:
Originally posted by wakeupneo
How can you be anything other than fully yourself ? if you already are yourself then why are you trying to become yourself ? Why not just be exactly what you already are ?
quote:
Originally posted by karl
This is another absolute/relative debate. The fact that we are on a message board discussing these things is evidence that seperation has occured. Why are we on message boards? Practicing, discussing, cultivating, purifying? These very actions and interations between each other in themselves are testament that on the relative we have forgotten ourSelves... John and Karl are not ourSelves, but figments of the imagination. Perhaps you can say identification. If I dressed up in a pirate costume and thought I was a pirate and reacted when things in the pirate life effected me, reacted when my identity as a pirate was threatened, all of my interactions were based on my illusory pirate life...true on the absolute level I wouldn't be a pirate, but on the realitive there is a gross error in mistaken identity. Overlooking this fact is spiritual and intellectual hypocrisy.
It's the same as saying that an alcoholic isn't an alcoholic, or a skitzopheric is sane...yeah, but is that their reality?
Sure you might say you know yourSelf, but is that your experience? Have you fully integrated into the Self (this isn't simply awakening to your true nature - which in reality is nothing but the entry point to enlightenment)? Does the story of "me" wake up in the morning? Is there a constant process of self-referal going on? Is the mind constantly looking into the past to create one's identity in the present?
I have yet to meet a neo-advaita teacher in person that is fully rooted in reality. Intellectually they have it down pat, experientially it's a totally different story. They have the realization that they are pure consciousness and think that's end game...
Yes, one moment a Pirate, one moment pure consciousness, both are simply thoughts. It's a story and one story is as good as the next. Accepting each story as it comes and goes, each situation that is faced and welcome it.
Out of this comes peace, making friends with who we are regardless of who or what that seems to be. Regardless of how you react, be it with laughter, tears or, anger. Accepting you for you-totally without compromise. Search inside and the truth is revealed and it hangs there shining with it's own inner light, without anything else it shines perfect, true and strong and it is the light of your own projection.
Getting embroiled in why you are ? who you are ? Why are others ? are just more stories. Accept them also.
Accept everything, refuse nothing, be it sad or happy. Surrender to the simple, because it waits patiently for your return and loves you absolutely and completely.
This is my discovery and it no longer needs anything to sustain it. I do not know pure consciousness, only that I experience consciousness on this level as everyone else seems to experience it. I am sure I will die but if the spirit is extinguished it will not matter, if it means re-incarnation then it will not matter. I do not seek to do, change or discover anything, simply accept it as perfection as it is revealed.
I didn't drag this from the pages of a book or the conversations of some sacred Guru. I know it completely and it is not reversible, it is a inner truth and it cannot be confounded or reasoned with.
If that is where you are or, where you are not, it is perfect either way.
For me that is what AYP meditation revealed. To accept each thought and to know and accept it for and of itself. In some way an integration happens between two opposing things, the identification with thought and the none acceptance of the identification with thought is the way it seems to me now. Like polarising those two things and refining them until they became so pure that they turned transparent and the muddy pool became crystal clear.
Once revealed it cannot be covered because it shines so intensly that it would burn anything in the way immediately. |
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tonightsthenight
846 Posts |
Posted - May 07 2010 : 5:31:05 PM
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Karl... Really?
I can't buy into this "everything is meaningless" stuff.
If that is what you want, i have no desire to stop you of course.
We live this illusion for a reason. Its a game. We live for many reasons, to enjoy life, to enjoy each other, to create ideas, and things, and systems and relationships and myths and stories and art!!!
If the only point of life is to liberate oneself, and overcome the Maya, then the enlightened Asians of the past would have liberated the world long ago. Enlightenment brings you peace. But it does not bring you purpose. If i was satisfied with enlightenment i would have gone off to live in a cave somewhere a few years ago. That is not what we are called to do!
I don't mean to be super hard on you.  You are right from a certain perspective of course, but I feel that the guy asking the question deserves a better answer  |
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yogani
USA
5245 Posts |
Posted - May 07 2010 : 6:37:40 PM
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Hi tonightsthenight:
Ultimate answers about spirituality cannot be found in the mind, or in any conceptual knowledge, though we all love to try. They can only be found in the cultivation of abiding inner silence. Then the paradoxes of spirituality make perfect sense. It is a knowing that happens as we become the unknown. The mind can never get this conceptually, but it can be fulfilled. The mind finds fulfillment by experiencing its source, by merging with it, and moving in it. That's why deep meditation is the first practice in AYP.
And this is not to say we should not be out in the world using our gifts and enjoying the journey as we may like. Everyone has their own life to live. Absolutely! It's just better to operate from the infinite source that is our essential nature than from a patchwork of mental structures. Way better.
So make sure you have a solid meditation practice, and all the rest will come. "Seek first the kingdom..."
The guru is in you.
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - May 08 2010 : 01:40:31 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by tonightsthenight
Karl... Really?
I can't buy into this "everything is meaningless" stuff.
If that is what you want, i have no desire to stop you of course.
We live this illusion for a reason. Its a game. We live for many reasons, to enjoy life, to enjoy each other, to create ideas, and things, and systems and relationships and myths and stories and art!!!
If the only point of life is to liberate oneself, and overcome the Maya, then the enlightened Asians of the past would have liberated the world long ago. Enlightenment brings you peace. But it does not bring you purpose. If i was satisfied with enlightenment i would have gone off to live in a cave somewhere a few years ago. That is not what we are called to do!
I don't mean to be super hard on you. You are right from a certain perspective of course, but I feel that the guy asking the question deserves a better answer
You are welcome. If I can help to clarify it.
Not meaningless, not meaningful. There is no world to enlighten, there is only your world, all thoughts, all meanings are illuminated by that one pure source.
It's like doing a painting and then liking or hating it, the painting is not seperate, it is no more an object than your like or dislike of it. You illuminate all of it, you are the ultimate source of everything. You cannot control it because there is truly nothing to control because all is illuminated.
Everything, every thought, every action, can only be viewed because that source is illuminating it. I cannot know the source, it does not need to be known, it is the light that lights itself. Perfect in every way. If that source did not exist, nothing would exist.
It seems so simple to me now and I wonder how it was possible that I was lost for so long amongst all those thoughts like a sky full of clouds without realising that but for the sun there would be no clouds or sky.
It does not make you dull, insensitive, apart. It energises, gives vigour and strength, makes you engage far more, makes you give and give because you know there can be no limits, capacity is infinite.
Yogani has found that this way of doing things, the simple meditation works. I have had all those moments of wondering if it was all just some scam, to moments when it seemed I was carried away by worshipping the technique and not the result. Have all of those, accept all of those, they are your guides you cannot see yet where they stretch, except to know they must come from somewhere.
Carry on doing the AYP stuff, get lost in the technique, bottom out in seemingly blind pits, get frustrated, bitch and scream, have visions, journeys, flashes of the divine, whatever gets you there. It's the place you never left, that needs no finding. You WILL this because you are searching and so it is inevitable.
I should add a thank you to Yogani, I know that you don't need thanking, but it is courtesy to do so. Finally 'Namaste' is something more than a polite greeting.
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - May 08 2010 : 01:49:32 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by yogani
And this is not to say we should not be out in the world using our gifts and enjoying the journey as we may like. Everyone has their own life to live. Absolutely! It's just better to operate from the infinite source that is our essential nature than from a patchwork of mental structures. Way better.
I should have said that, far more succinct and far more helpful that my rambling
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