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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
 Posted - Mar 05 2010 : 4:37:10 PM
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Hi Yonatan 
I know......it is going to be ok.... thank you. _/\_
Love!
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Mar 06 2010 : 03:27:03 AM
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Hi Carson,
quote:
How do you make someone feel secure when unconditional love isn't doing it (fast enough)?
I don't think that is the right question. After all, you can't make someone feel one way or another way. But when love is real, you are feeling the hurt that your wife feels, as if it is happening inside you. Then action is spontaneous and you know what is the right thing to do. That may result in you simply talking to your wife about it, or it may be that you will naturally want to change the way you behave around others to take into account the feelings of your wife.
It is the natural outcome of compassion as the boundaries between self and other begin to dissolve. It is no longer about your wife and her feelings, and you and your feelings. As the heart expands and separation between self and other falls away, unconditional love is the tangible quality of the nature of that union. Then action flows from that state without any hesitation or questioning and will always be pure.
Christi
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Mar 08 2010 : 12:13:21 PM
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Hi Christi
quote:
Originally posted by Christi
quote:
How do you make someone feel secure when unconditional love isn't doing it (fast enough)?
I don't think that is the right question. After all, you can't make someone feel one way or another way.
Yes for sure. Can't make anyone feel anything. And can't choose the time frame either. It is just hard to watch someone so close to you suffer needlessly.....especially when you are facilitating the suffering. But, I can't stop teaching yoga, and this is essentially what is causing the circumstance around which my wife is suffering.
quote:
Originally posted by Christi
But when love is real, you are feeling the hurt that your wife feels, as if it is happening inside you.
Yes, for sure.
quote:
Originally posted by Christi
Then action is spontaneous and you know what is the right thing to do.
I know what to do.... but it is not up to me to end her suffering for her....I can do what I can to create circumstances in which it would be easier not to suffer, but essentially it is up to her whether to suffer or not.....it is her choice, and if it isn't this situation causing suffering it will be another.
quote:
Originally posted by Christi
That may result in you simply talking to your wife about it, or it may be that you will naturally want to change the way you behave around others to take into account the feelings of your wife.
I have spent much time talking with her about this recently (to pretty good effect I would say), but the difficulty is in that I don't totally place my relationship with my wife on a pedestal.... it doesn't necessarily supercede all other relationships. If someone comes to me for help, and it feels right to get involved, I will do so.....with my wife or with anyone else. But if my wife feels that I should only be trying to help her, and not helping anyone else, this is not possible for me at this time. I can't turn off of my desire to be of service to everyone and only be of service to her just because it makes her jealous when I work with other people. That isn't fair to anyone.
quote:
Originally posted by Christi
It is the natural outcome of compassion as the boundaries between self and other begin to dissolve.
But this "dissolving of boundaries" doesn't pick and choose. It doesn't say that the boundaries will only dissolve between me and my wife. It dissolves ALL boundaries making it impossible not to see everyone as Self, causing a deep desire to be of service to All. Which causes jealousy in my wife. For me (and it may be different for others I don't know), there is no turning off the need to be of service to everyone I can be.
quote:
Originally posted by Christi
It is no longer about your wife and her feelings, and you and your feelings.
Nope....it is about the feelings of the whole of humanity....not just the feelings of either myself, my wife or the two of us as partners. The two of us aren't some "2 person unit" that exists seperate from the rest of the world. We too are a part of the whole and this seems to be the issue for her. She wants us to be a seperate unit...."us" and "them", and that perspective just doesn't jive here anymore.....and this is causing jealous feelings for her.
quote:
Originally posted by Christi
As the heart expands and separation between self and other falls away, unconditional love is the tangible quality of the nature of that union. Then action flows from that state without any hesitation or questioning and will always be pure.
But those actions may still cause suffering for others. I can't choose for anyone not to suffer, that has to be a personal choice. I could do everything possible to try and make life be a certain way so that my wife feels as little amount of suffering as possible because of my actions, but in doing this I will be stifling the ability for real love to shine elsewhere.....focusing the outpouring on one person. If I allow the action to flow as it desires to, without hesitation or questioning, these actions can still facilitate suffering in another (in this situation my wife).
Love!
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Edited by - CarsonZi on Mar 08 2010 12:16:14 PM |
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wigswest
USA
115 Posts |
Posted - Mar 08 2010 : 12:35:41 PM
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| Carson, how would you feel/what would you do if the situation were reversed? If she was "counseling" attractive men who were emailing her and telling her that they loved her (and she was telling them the same)? |
Edited by - wigswest on Mar 08 2010 12:36:48 PM |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Mar 08 2010 : 12:57:46 PM
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Hi wigswest
quote:
Originally posted by wigswest
Carson, how would you feel/what would you do if the situation were reversed? If she was "counseling" attractive men who were emailing her and telling her that they loved her (and she was telling them the same)?
Well, honestly I can't say for sure. In one way perhaps I would probably feel a little jealous as she does. In another way I would probably feel honored that she was my wife and was in a position to help others in that way. I think it would all boil down to trust and open communication. As long as I trust her, and as long as we are able to openly communicate about it, I don't think it would be an issue. I can't say for sure until I am actually in the situation, (it's a hypothetical situation with hypothetical feelings) but I think I would probably inquire into the nature of the "couselling" and would either let it go or not depending on the inclination then.
But then there is another part of me that wants to answer this question that it wouldn't make one iota of difference to me. Even if she cheated on me and I knew it. It would likely hurt the ego somewhat (to feel that "I" am not desired as much as another), but at the same time I feel I could both be happy for her, and also let it go (I don't own her, nor her actions). So honestly, I really don't know how I would feel... it could really go either way at this point I think.
Love!
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wigswest
USA
115 Posts |
Posted - Mar 08 2010 : 1:01:48 PM
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Well, it's something you need to be honest with yourself about. Because the bottom line is, Love = doing to others as you would have them do unto you. And that includes your wife.
Anything else, you can call it whatever makes your ego feel better, but it ain't love. |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Mar 08 2010 : 1:23:33 PM
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Hi wigswest....
Yes, it includes my wife, but can not be exculsively my wife. It's do unto others....ALL others, not just one other. And if one other says that my doing unto ALL others is causing her suffering, is it "right" to put that one other on a pedestal and ignore the doing unto the rest of humanity as I would have them do to me in order to help ease the suffering of one other? If one other decides that they want me to live in a box so that they feel safe, is it "right" to oblige them and to forget about doing unto "the rest" of others?
Love!
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adamantclearlight
USA
410 Posts |
Posted - Mar 08 2010 : 3:06:18 PM
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There's a difference between spousal love and altruistic compassion for humankind. Make it clear to her which feeling you have for her. Also there's a social context in which counseling may occur in a professional way so that the boundaries are clear.
Adamant |
Edited by - adamantclearlight on Mar 08 2010 3:57:27 PM |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Mar 08 2010 : 4:02:08 PM
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Hi Carson,
quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Christi
It is the natural outcome of compassion as the boundaries between self and other begin to dissolve.
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But this "dissolving of boundaries" doesn't pick and choose. It doesn't say that the boundaries will only dissolve between me and my wife. It dissolves ALL boundaries making it impossible not to see everyone as Self, causing a deep desire to be of service to All.
Of course. If it wasn't that way, it would hardly be unconditional love. 
quote:
quote:
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Originally posted by Christi
Then action is spontaneous and you know what is the right thing to do.
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I know what to do.... but it is not up to me to end her suffering for her....I can do what I can to create circumstances in which it would be easier not to suffer, but essentially it is up to her whether to suffer or not.....it is her choice, and if it isn't this situation causing suffering it will be another.
That's the other aspect of unconditional love, it doesn't attach to outcomes. You will be moved to do what you feel is right, through your love for your wife (or anyone else), but what happens then is also surrendered (offered) in love. There is no need to hold on to it.
quote:
Yes for sure. Can't make anyone feel anything. And can't choose the time frame either. It is just hard to watch someone so close to you suffer needlessly.....especially when you are facilitating the suffering.
Who is facilitating the suffereing? It sounds to me like you are facilitating your own suffering by believing your story, and she is facilitating her own suffering by believing her story. No?
Christi |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Mar 08 2010 : 4:21:25 PM
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Hi Adamant, Christi and All
@adamant: quote:
Originally posted by adamantclearlight
There's a difference between spousal love and altruistic compassion for humankind. Make it clear to her which feeling you have for her.
The only real difference between my relationship with my wife and my relationship with anyone else (male or female) is that I choose to share the sacredness of sexual intimacy with only my wife. In every relationship/friendship I am involved in there is unconditional love and openness. I hold nothing back from anyone.
quote:
Originally posted by adamantclearlight
Also there's a social context in which counseling may occur in a professional way so that the boundaries are clear.
Oh, the boundaries are very clear. The boundaries that exist right now are sexually oriented though. I won't go there. But at this point, I don't see much difference between Love, romantic Love, and Unconditional Love....they all look like Love from here.
The "counselling" is not counselling in the traditional sense. It is basically just someone coming to me asking for advice on different aspects of yoga and relationships. It is very informal.
@Christi: quote:
Originally posted by Christi
That's the other aspect of unconditional love, it doesn't attach to outcomes. You will be moved to do what you feel is right, through your love for your wife (or anyone else), but what happens then is also surrendered (offered) in love. There is no need to hold on to it.
Exactly. And if the outcome is continued suffering for my wife, I can only do what I am moved to do and have to stay unattached to this outcome. But this is not necessarily received very well if you know what I mean 
quote:
Originally posted by Christi
Who is facilitating the suffereing?
My actions/lack of action/perspective is facilitating suffering for my wife.
quote:
Originally posted by Christi
It sounds to me like you are facilitating your own suffering by believing your story, and she is facilitating her own suffering by believing her story. No?
The only suffering I can find here (for me) is what I might term "appreciative suffering" (as opposed to the "appreciative joy" of Buddhism). There is no "real" suffering for me over this....the only suffering here is caused by seeing my wife suffer needlessly and wanting to end it but not being able to.
Love!
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Edited by - CarsonZi on Mar 08 2010 4:23:24 PM |
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emc
2072 Posts |
Posted - Mar 08 2010 : 5:07:47 PM
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| Carson, I don't know what to say, but what I can do is to give you feedback from what I pick up from your writings. To be honest - I find it low frequent. It's mind frequency coming through. It doesn't give vibes of Truth/stillness. Your argumentation seems to point at you having no problems - your wife having all problems. In my experience this is simply never true, since the outside is a perfect reflection of the inside. So, I think there must be something in your approach that needs to be looked at carefully if you want to dissolve this issue. |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Mar 08 2010 : 5:15:08 PM
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Thanks for your honesty emc, I really appreciate it
I know that I have "problems"....definitely not above problems here. But I am the one who has to work on "my" problems, and the same goes for my wife. I can be there to love, support and accept her (as she can be for me), but I can't solve her problems for her, nor can she solve mine.
Love!
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adamantclearlight
USA
410 Posts |
Posted - Mar 08 2010 : 5:59:24 PM
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Hi Carson, I'm with emc here. I think your response is unwise:
quote:
The only real difference between my relationship with my wife and my relationship with anyone else (male or female) is that I choose to share the sacredness of sexual intimacy with only my wife.
You have a rather shallow view of married relationship. Surely you share more with your wife than anyone else. If you don't there a problem.
My wife is my closest friend; she picks me up when I fall; I trust her with all my confidences; I trust her with my bank account; she cares for me when I'm ill; she looks after me when I'm absent minded; she helps me with my parents; we share spiritual values; she is my goddess and my savior; she's the one person I want to grow old with and to die with. These are not trivial.
The way you say "only difference" and "sacredness of sexual intimacy" make the sex seem not intimate or sacred, like she's your wife because you're f*#&ing.
Be advised that spiritual history is filled with many married couples. Just because you treat everyone with unconditional love does not mean your wife is not special. The two are not mutually exclusive; you just have to open your mind more.
If you all are compatible then she will want to join your spiritual quest as she sees the positive experience you are having. Somehow make her a part of your spiritual project.
Adamant |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Mar 08 2010 : 6:13:18 PM
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Hi Carson,
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Christi
Who is facilitating the suffering?
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My actions/lack of action/perspective is facilitating suffering for my wife.
Is it really? If your wife stopped believing her story... that you should do something, or not do something else, then she would not suffer. So does it really have anything to do with you?
quote:
The only suffering I can find here (for me) is what I might term "appreciative suffering" (as opposed to the "appreciative joy" of Buddhism). There is no "real" suffering for me over this....the only suffering here is caused by seeing my wife suffer needlessly and wanting to end it but not being able to.
Wanting something, and not being able to get what you want, is suffering. Not wanting something, and having to bear it, is also suffering. So your story is that you want your wife to stop feeling jealous and insecure, and you cannot make that happen and it is all your fault. When you drop the story, that is the point at which love happens and direct communication (communion) can take place. As long as the story is there, then there is contraction around that, and confusion over how to act.
The dissolving of the story into silence, is the dissolving of the boundary between self and other, and this is the flowering of divine love. Then, whatever happens happens, but it happens because it flowers out of love, and dissolves back into love. Movement, but nobody moving. No deliberation, no regret, no blame, nobody to be blamed, just a natural flowing from the heart.
Christi
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Mar 08 2010 : 7:20:50 PM
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Hi adamant
quote:
Originally posted by adamantclearlight
Hi Carson, I'm with emc here. I think your response is unwise:
quote:
The only real difference between my relationship with my wife and my relationship with anyone else (male or female) is that I choose to share the sacredness of sexual intimacy with only my wife.
You have a rather shallow view of married relationship. Surely you share more with your wife than anyone else. If you don't there a problem.
Strangely, I feel no need to defend myself here. All everyone is saying here is likely correct....but for some reason, I'm not worried.
Perhaps I DO have a shallow view of a married relationship. I just don't find that I tell things to my wife that I wouldn't say to anyone (meaning I share everything with both my wife and anyone who desires to know....and even many who don't ) There is nothing I would not tell/share about myself to anyone. I am an open book for all (if you can't tell from many of my various posts here on the AYP forum) to read. I hide nothing from no one, my wife included. If that makes my view of marriage shallow, then I guess it does. I have a shallow perspective I guess.
quote:
Originally posted by adamantclearlight
My wife is my closest friend; she picks me up when I fall;
I too can say that my wife is my closest friend....picking me up when I fall?? Well, I wouldn't necessarily say that, but I WOULD say that she is there to support me when I fall and that she loves me no less because of it.
quote:
Originally posted by adamantclearlight
I trust her with all my confidences;
I trust my wife with my "confidences" as well. But I trust everyone with that...as you may be able to tell from my posting history here.
quote:
Originally posted by adamantclearlight
I trust her with my bank account;
This is a recent development for us (having just bought a home) but I can say this as well.
quote:
Originally posted by adamantclearlight
she cares for me when I'm ill;
Haven't been sick since we got together (thanks yoga ) but I'm sure if I did get sick she would be there to care for me.
quote:
Originally posted by adamantclearlight
she looks after me when I'm absent minded;
Hahaha....yes, my wife has certainly done this for me....and it was especially appreciated when I was still smoking pot as "absent minded" may have been a very accurate description of me back then
quote:
Originally posted by adamantclearlight
she helps me with my parents;
My wife stays out of things with my parents as things are very complicated there.
quote:
Originally posted by adamantclearlight
we share spiritual values;
To an extend I can say the same, but her path is different from mine in many ways as well.
quote:
Originally posted by adamantclearlight
she is my goddess and my savior;
Don't quite get this. Savior? My wife is not my savior....can't honestly say that. Goddess? Yes she is a goddess....but "my" goddess? Can't really say I have one of those.
quote:
Originally posted by adamantclearlight
she's the one person I want to grow old with and to die with.
Grow old with, yes. That is why I married her.
quote:
Originally posted by adamantclearlight
These are not trivial.
No, they are certainly not.
quote:
Originally posted by adamantclearlight
The way you say "only difference" and "sacredness of sexual intimacy" make the sex seem not intimate or sacred, like she's your wife because you're f*#&ing.
She is my wife because we are married. And she IS the only person I share the sacredness of sex with. If that makes me shallow...well, I guess I am shallow. At least I am honest about it.
quote:
Originally posted by adamantclearlight
Be advised that spiritual history is filled with many married couples.
Of course.
quote:
Originally posted by adamantclearlight
Just because you treat everyone with unconditional love does not mean your wife is not special.
I truly do not understand this. I'm sorry. What makes one person more "special" then another? To me, everyone is special. I have a different relationship with everyone, but the status of our relationships doesn't make one person more special then any other. Not to me anyways.
quote:
Originally posted by adamantclearlight
The two are not mutually exclusive; you just have to open your mind more.
I'm sure I do.
quote:
Originally posted by adamantclearlight
If you all are compatible then she will want to join your spiritual quest as she sees the positive experience you are having.
And she has. She started a meditation practice of her own while I was away last November at Yoga Teacher Training. She has kept it up ever since.
quote:
Originally posted by adamantclearlight
Somehow make her a part of your spiritual project.
I need to inquire into what I feel this means for me....I don't know right now how to do this, or what this even means for me.
Love!
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adamantclearlight
USA
410 Posts |
Posted - Mar 08 2010 : 7:33:35 PM
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You're gonna be okay. What makes one's wife more special than another is the relationship. Perhaps your wife is not more special than any one else. But it is a special relationship;, and as you seem to agree, it involves more than just sex.
Adamant |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Mar 08 2010 : 7:34:35 PM
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Hi Christi
quote:
Originally posted by Christi
If your wife stopped believing her story... that you should do something, or not do something else, then she would not suffer. So does it really have anything to do with you?
I guess not. I think that I have a tendency to see things from the point of view of "how am I affecting others around me".
quote:
Originally posted by Christi
Wanting something, and not being able to get what you want, is suffering. Not wanting something, and having to bear it, is also suffering. So your story is that you want your wife to stop feeling jealous and insecure, and you cannot make that happen and it is all your fault. When you drop the story, that is the point at which love happens and direct communication (communion) can take place. As long as the story is there, then there is contraction around that, and confusion over how to act.
Yes, for sure. Doesn't dropping the story that I am causing my wife to suffer because of my actions seem a little, well, calloused? Is wanting my wife to not suffer not a worthy goal?
quote:
Originally posted by Christi
The dissolving of the story into silence, is the dissolving of the boundary between self and other, and this is the flowering of divine love. Then, whatever happens happens, but it happens because it flowers out of love, and dissolves back into love. Movement, but nobody moving. No deliberation, no regret, no blame, nobody to be blamed, just a natural flowing from the heart.
Ok....seems reasonable.... So lets say, theoretically, I drop the story that I am causing my wife to suffer, I lose the regret, blame etc, and am just open to the natural flow of heart..... and she still blames me for her suffering. Sure it is just her believing her story, but I am still left wanting to end this suffering for her. I know this is me being attached to an outcome, but I find it incredibly difficult to stand by and watch her suffer and not TRY and do anything about it.....and telling her that she is suffering only because she is believing her story doesn't usually come across as compassionate....even if it is said with all the compassion in the world.
Please (everyone) understand that this is not anywhere as large an issue as this thread has made this out to be. My wife and I are fine, and she (in general) is not actually suffering over this. But on occasion (usually when the pregnancy hormones are running rampant) this (or something similar) will pop up....usually caused by her feeling that there is someone out there that would be more "suited" to me then she is. Most of this discussion is more hypothetical then real.
Love!
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Edited by - CarsonZi on Mar 08 2010 7:39:43 PM |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Mar 09 2010 : 05:15:01 AM
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Hi Carson,
quote:
Yes, for sure. Doesn't dropping the story that I am causing my wife to suffer because of my actions seem a little, well, calloused? Is wanting my wife to not suffer not a worthy goal?
Of course it is a worthy goal. There are good reasons for holding on to it, but there are much better reasons for letting it go. The best reason is that the beauty of love can only happen when we drop the story and our role in it. Actually, our role in it usually is the whole story. When we drop our role, the whole story evaporates as if it had never been there. Then there is freedom. You are free to feel whatever you feel and stay free. Someone may blame you for causing their pain... you feel their pain, and you act or you let it go. Then it ends... end of story. There is no carrying it forward.
What we are discussing is the ending of karma. It doesn't have to be an issue with your wife, it could be about anything. When the story ends there is no more debating what to do, because the debater was the hero of the story. Nothing more.
All the best,
Christi
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Mar 09 2010 : 10:53:46 AM
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Hi Christi
quote:
Originally posted by Christi
What we are discussing is the ending of karma. It doesn't have to be an issue with your wife, it could be about anything. When the story ends there is no more debating what to do, because the debater was the hero of the story. Nothing more.
Great post Christ, thank you.....really helped to clear the windows a bit and make things a lot clearer. Time to stop trying to fill that role of protagonist/antagonist, hero/bad guy, instigator/problem-solver...... time to just rest as loving awareness.....it's so tiring trying to be something you are not
Love!
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Mar 09 2010 : 11:16:12 AM
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Hi Carson,
quote:
Great post Christ, thank you.....really helped to clear the windows a bit and make things a lot clearer. Time to stop trying to fill that role of protagonist/antagonist, hero/bad guy, instigator/problem-solver...... time to just rest as loving awareness.....it's so tiring trying to be something you are not
.... and so peaceful being what you really are. |
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Adi
India
34 Posts |
Posted - Apr 23 2010 : 01:08:55 AM
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family is also everyone continue loving everyone no harm can come from that
peace and love |
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Loving Family vs Loving All
