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wakeupneo
USA
171 Posts |
 Posted - Feb 02 2010 : 09:46:31 AM
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Note* the word tendency here refers to one’s past conditioning.
Conditioning based on past experience of like and dislike, of aversion vs. craving. Nisargadatta said “our memories of pain create fear, while our memories of pleasure create desire” Remember kids…Buddha said that desire is the root of all suffering. The desire for things to be different then they are… Generally speaking this is the cause of all suffering.
There is an ongoing debate regarding free-will. Of course there is
free will right? The answer isn’t necessarily so obvious.
So your going to make a decision right? Hmm will I get the Café
Americano or the Café Latte? I think I’ll take the Café Latte! Who
made the decision?
Well duh, I did…
Well did you? Or did your tendencies pull you into choosing the Latte?
There are innumerable variables based on taste preferences, beliefs, past experiences, and tons of predispositions and conditioning, so who choose the Latte for you?
You merely acted out the part.
Hang on one second man, so your saying there isn’t any free will? What if you were sleepy and needed an extra pick me up so decided to order the Americano?
Well in that case you had tendencies that told you that being more
awake and alert was more important that fulfilling your sensual
desire. These tendencies that told you that you needed a pick me up
was more powerful than the tendency to satisfy sense pleasure for taste. The situation is that a strong tendency merely over rode a lesser tendency. Here still YOU didn’t make a decision, your tendencies did. Which were all a product of the past. Every decision me make in the NOW is based on the past, a past that is DEAD and cannot be changed.
This model seems to suggest that there is no such thing as free will.
We are merely acting out or present moment based on our past. Thus our future will always be dictated by our past (or present, same thing right) So the only way to change behavior is to introduce a new and more powerful tendency.
Well then, who chooses the new and more powerful tendency?
The tendency to desire change does. There was just a stronger tendency to have change than to keep the same old. Nothing personal, really! Note WE still are not making any decisions in the matter. We are still getting pulled by yet another tendency. Did I really choose to write this? Nope just had a strong tendency to do so, which was stronger than the tendency which desires sleep. Which was all based on the near infinite variables from the past
We like to judge others right? How dare he! What was he thinking! We
looking down on thieves and murderers. There is the old adage, if you were to walk a mile in that man’s shoes.
Let;s look at a murder. Well say you (whomever you are, or whatever that means) had the exact same parents, variables, encountered the same situations, born at the same times, same place, same school, had their lunch money stolen from the same bully on the same day and this bully was in the same rotten mood… you get the point. So the question is… would you pull the trigger? (For the sake of this argument lets take any kind of past lives, past karma out of the equation) You would absolutely, unequivocally pull the damn
trigger. You would be the murder. You would be just as capable of
doing it… In fact you would do it. So how then can you judge? This
someone sheds light onto the whole concept of “we are all one” we are
all the same. The only difference is our minds, our past, our
tendencies, variables, the 10,000 conditions, but underneath all that
we are all one. The idea of separateness truly is an illusion!
So this brings us to the fact that we have no free-will and are all one.
Dang man, if I’m not in charge, then who is?
God perhaps? Maybe that’s why the 12 step programs are so effective.
Surrender to God’s will… Ah so nice, is there any other way? Can there ever be any other way? It’s all God’s will, as we just demonstrated… it’s not ours. Free will is an illusion.
Steven Wolinsky likes to say that we are like waves in the ocean. These waves look at there experience and it 'seems; that they really are moving and are independent.
But then why creation, why existence if we are merely playing out
roles according to some predetermine rigid script in which we have
absolutely no hope of ever altering? That really seems to be the
million dollar question. There must be some other aspect of us which
is free to choose. But that still doesn’t seem right.
Why are some able to make decisions and others not, again it’s all tendencies. Why is someone willing to resist the jelly doughnut and the other person isn’t? Tendencies… Some call it will-power or discipline. But what is that really? It’s another tendency. One tendency pretty much says that my desire to be discipline is more important that immediate gratification. Yet another tendency. Man it really seems there is no such thing as free will.
If the divine really does take an active role in an individuals life
(and I do believe this to be the case) well then perhaps this is the
one thing that is beyond tendencies. But even here why does one pray
and ask for guidance and the other one does not? Again this is more
tendencies. Tendencies which ultimately lead to some sort of divine
providence. There is that often ambiguous term, “grace”. Many
spiritual teachers talk about it. It’s often talked about as some key
ingredient in spiritual awakening. It seems to be free-will is an
illusion. Ultimately there is nothing to be done and no one to do it.
With God’s will and in his time we ultimately enter a state of
completeness and utter surrender as we see that we are not the doers, nor the doing, nor the deed.
To further cook the noodle...
Libet did experiments with free will in which he found that the body had already responded to a particular action BEFORE the brain consciously decided to do it...WHOA!
I'm open to hearing someone describe the dynamics of a complete free will decision to me. How does it happen? What are the variables? |
Edited by - AYPforum on Feb 02 2010 12:50:13 PM |
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Clear White Light
USA
229 Posts |
Posted - Feb 02 2010 : 11:08:00 AM
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As far as I have been able to understand it, free will is largely illusory. What most people confuse to be willpower is merely the playing out of desires and subconscious impressions. Many people do not understand the great extent to which their thoughts and behaviors are conditioned based on what has previously happened to them. This gives them the impression that they have will. Consequently the results of the acting of out these desires is suffering, and more suffering. Now obviously, some people have more discipline than others. Some people can perform long and arduous spiritual practices, or practice playing piano for 12 hours every day, while other people cannot discipline themselves to practice even 10 minutes every day. So what makes the difference, right? And when does discipline just become addiction to another ego trip? It's a really good question. Obviously I don't have the answer, but I have a feeling; Desires and actions which spring from harmony and unity, result in harmony and unity. Desires and actions which spring from egoism result in suffering. When you think and act in harmony, you are doing the will of God, or living the Dharma.. I feel that this is the only true will. Maybe "FREE" will doesn't just mean free to choose, but FREE FROM SUFFERING, or FREE FROM EGO IDENTIFICATION. The FREE will is the will of Life manifesting from unity, spreading out into diversity, and coming back into unity again. (Or at least seeming to, from our perspective). The reason that this kind of acting is not just another tendency, is because it comes from beyond the mind. It is completely spontaneous.
Also, you ask if the divine really does take an active role in individuals lives. This makes me think of this point; The divine can do nothing but take an active role in individual's lives because individual's lives ARE the divine. It's just our continual identification with the mind/body complex which keeps us from this realization.
Just some thoughts, anyway.. |
Edited by - Clear White Light on Feb 02 2010 11:29:27 AM |
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wakeupneo
USA
171 Posts |
Posted - Feb 02 2010 : 12:05:58 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Clear White Light
As far as I have been able to understand it, free will is largely illusory.
As far as I can see, it's entirely illusory.
quote:
What most people confuse to be willpower is merely the playing out of desires and subconscious impressions. Many people do not understand the great extent to which their thoughts and behaviors are conditioned based on what has previously happened to them. This gives them the impression that they have will.
Precisely
quote:
Consequently the results of the acting of out these desires is suffering, and more suffering. Now obviously, some people have more discipline than others. Some people can perform long and arduous spiritual practices, or practice playing piano for 12 hours every day, while other people cannot discipline themselves to practice even 10 minutes every day. So what makes the difference, right? And when does discipline just become addiction to another ego trip?
Who chooses to act out of desires? The ego/"me". And lets look at the dynamics of this so-called choice. This all predicated on the past.
The decision to act in so-called accordance with the divine, a higher power... again this decision is not made by so 'free-will' but rather by a strong tendency for it than the latter. Which is all the result of the individuals past and also the collective past. This 'choice' is not really a choice but a manifestation of the sum total of all our so-called individual experiences and to some extent the collective experience.
The person that is disciplined and plays for 12 hours is doing so because of their past. similarily the person that can't stand to do it for ten minutes.
quote:
It's a really good question. Obviously I don't have the answer, but I have a feeling; Desires and actions which spring from harmony and unity, result in harmony and unity. Desires and actions which spring from egoism result in suffering.
Where do the desires and actions spring forth from? The past. And ultimately choosing to act in harmonious ways is merely just the path of least resistance and a decision which is made because the impulse to do so is stronger than that to not do it.
quote:
When you think and act in harmony, you are doing the will of God, or living the Dharma..
But 'you' are still doing so because you had a strong drive, impulse to do so. This strong impulse was created by all your past conditioning. As long as a 'you' remains you are not doing the will of God, living Dharma...? Once the 'you' dissolves there isn't even a question or an issue of whose will is manifesting. There is no 'you' to have a will.
quote:
I feel that this is the only true will. Maybe "FREE" will doesn't just mean free to choose, but FREE FROM SUFFERING, or FREE FROM EGO IDENTIFICATION. The FREE will is the will of Life manifesting from unity, spreading out into diversity, and coming back into unity again. (Or at least seeming to, from our perspective). The reason that this kind of acting is not just another tendency, is because it comes from beyond the mind. It is completely spontaneous.
Sounds good to me.
quote:
Also, you ask if the divine really does take an active role in individuals lives. This makes me think of this point; The divine can do nothing but take an active role in individual's lives because individual's lives ARE the divine. It's just our continual identification with the mind/body complex which keeps us from this realization.
Just some thoughts, anyway..
I like the theory that creation is the divine experiencing itself. In total unity and non-daulity, there is no experience. In order for experience to exist there needs to be a subject and object.
So creation is the divine experiencing itself. Is the divine experience. We are and everything is a direct result of this experience.
We are not seperate right? We are one? Well then who is this 'me' who makes decisions? Who is this 'me' that brings up these issues.
KILL the questioner! |
Edited by - wakeupneo on Feb 02 2010 12:09:11 PM |
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Clear White Light
USA
229 Posts |
Posted - Feb 02 2010 : 12:29:34 PM
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Truth is in the being, not the knowing. It's in the presence. The "me" that experiences, and brings up issues is just the ego. Ultimately, I don't think it's possible to live beyond the will of god. It is still possible to think or act in a way that is seemingly harmonious, but which actually springs from ego identification. The difference between these tendencies, and other tendencies is that these tendencies seem to improve us. It's like meditating every day, even though you're not seeming to get any result. You may come to it with certain amount of egoism invested in what you are expecting from the practice. However merely by doing the practices, egotic or not, they will improve you. Eventually, it stops being just another tendency. It leads to self realization.
This is the essence of Tantra; The channeling of desire towards self realization. |
Edited by - Clear White Light on Feb 02 2010 12:48:24 PM |
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AYPforum
351 Posts |
Posted - Feb 02 2010 : 12:50:13 PM
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| Moderator note: Topic moved for better placement |
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adamantclearlight
USA
410 Posts |
Posted - Feb 02 2010 : 1:05:03 PM
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Free will as a concept based on a variety of assumptions about what we want the world to be about, freedom of choice in politics, religion etc. The Western philosophical topic of "Free Will" has questionable merit. However, all the world recognizes volition and intent. Intentionality and voluntariness is the key to the question you ask. You can intend to raise your arm and not raise it or not intend to raise it and raise it, depending on other conditions. Crimes and good deeds occur because of voluntariness. Unless one recognizes the inherently moral quality of the human condition, there's no enlightenment. The Buddha's insight was that attachment is bondage, meaning no free will, but tendencies to follow one's delights and run from aversions. However, one can be freed by voluntarily not so intending.
Adamant |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Feb 02 2010 : 1:32:48 PM
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The question is redundant.
Free will/Gods will are just concepts of the mind, go beyond that. See the world for what it is, a projection, a prison created by the mind for the mind.
There is only now, past and future is only memory and memory is of the mind.
There are no choices to make, other than the choices the mind creates.
This is seeing the world as seperate from you. Work to be free from the dream. |
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adamantclearlight
USA
410 Posts |
Posted - Feb 02 2010 : 1:51:00 PM
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Karl, If you think you can be free of your mind, then another prison awaits you.
Adamant |
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adamantclearlight
USA
410 Posts |
Posted - Feb 02 2010 : 1:52:57 PM
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quote:
"Mind precedes all mental states. Mind is their chief; they are all mind-wrought." Dhammapada, verse 1.
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Feb 02 2010 : 2:43:57 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by adamantclearlight
Karl, If you think you can be free of your mind, then another prison awaits you.
Adamant
You misunderstood my post. It is freedom from ignorance, the mind is the only tool that can accomplish that, why would I wish to be free from it?
I accept the mind as I accept the universe it creates. It is freedom from suffering by freedom from ignorance. Suffering is desiring something to be something other than it is, realising that I am the root of that is all that can be known.
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wakeupneo
USA
171 Posts |
Posted - Feb 02 2010 : 2:52:17 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by karl
The question is redundant.
Free will/Gods will are just concepts of the mind, go beyond that. See the world for what it is, a projection, a prison created by the mind for the mind.
There is only now, past and future is only memory and memory is of the mind.
There are no choices to make, other than the choices the mind creates.
This is seeing the world as seperate from you. Work to be free from the dream.
I agree, but on some level a conscious decision or there needs to be an impulse to drop mind, to drop concepts. A decision of freedom needs to be had. Or rather an impulse of freedom needs to manifest. Who manifests this impulse? This impulse is the product of the collective past. So essentially to even get to the state of 'dropping everything, dropping mind' this is not our doing and not something we (as the false individual identity)have any control over.
It seems there is NOTHING 'we' can do about ANYTHING.
This makes sense considering the fact that 'we' doesn't exist.
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wakeupneo
USA
171 Posts |
Posted - Feb 02 2010 : 2:53:43 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by adamantclearlight
quote:
"Mind precedes all mental states. Mind is their chief; they are all mind-wrought." Dhammapada, verse 1.
What preceds mind? Is that not the self? Can one not embody this reality? |
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wakeupneo
USA
171 Posts |
Posted - Feb 02 2010 : 2:57:32 PM
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quote:
You misunderstood my post. It is freedom from ignorance, the mind is the only tool that can accomplish that, why would I wish to be free from it?
I accept the mind as I accept the universe it creates. It is freedom from suffering by freedom from ignorance. Suffering is desiring something to be something other than it is, realising that I am the root of that is all that can be known.
Actually this seems to be the misconception in Advaitic teachings. The "I AM" is not the root of all that there is to be know. Nisargadatta called it prior to consciousness, upon what does consciousness rest. Nisargadatta mentioned that once one is firmly stablized in the "I AM" one will realize that this is "not it". When one has the realization "I AM" there is still the "I". The absolute is prior to the "I AM" and can be known and embodied. |
Edited by - wakeupneo on Feb 02 2010 2:59:04 PM |
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adamantclearlight
USA
410 Posts |
Posted - Feb 02 2010 : 3:06:21 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by wakeupneo
quote:
Originally posted by adamantclearlight
quote:
"Mind precedes all mental states. Mind is their chief; they are all mind-wrought." Dhammapada, verse 1.
What preceds mind? Is that not the self? Can one not embody this reality?
That question doesn't amount to much. You can turn it around: Is there no self? Can embodying reality not matter? A calm and stable mind knows the limits of inquiry.
Adamant |
Edited by - adamantclearlight on Feb 02 2010 3:11:46 PM |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Feb 02 2010 : 3:18:43 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by adamantclearlight
A calm and stable mind knows the limits of inquiry.
Hahahaha....this reminded me of the time I decided to do inquiry on "Who is driving".....
Love.
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Feb 02 2010 : 4:32:09 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by wakeupneo
quote:
Originally posted by karl
The question is redundant.
Free will/Gods will are just concepts of the mind, go beyond that. See the world for what it is, a projection, a prison created by the mind for the mind.
There is only now, past and future is only memory and memory is of the mind.
There are no choices to make, other than the choices the mind creates.
This is seeing the world as seperate from you. Work to be free from the dream.
I agree, but on some level a conscious decision or there needs to be an impulse to drop mind, to drop concepts. A decision of freedom needs to be had. Or rather an impulse of freedom needs to manifest. Who manifests this impulse? This impulse is the product of the collective past. So essentially to even get to the state of 'dropping everything, dropping mind' this is not our doing and not something we (as the false individual identity)have any control over.
It seems there is NOTHING 'we' can do about ANYTHING.
This makes sense considering the fact that 'we' doesn't exist.
Collective past is only memory, there is only now. Does it really matter how a thing came about ? These are external things, stay with the self. |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Feb 02 2010 : 5:00:37 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by wakeupneo
quote:
You misunderstood my post. It is freedom from ignorance, the mind is the only tool that can accomplish that, why would I wish to be free from it?
I accept the mind as I accept the universe it creates. It is freedom from suffering by freedom from ignorance. Suffering is desiring something to be something other than it is, realising that I am the root of that is all that can be known.
Actually this seems to be the misconception in Advaitic teachings. The "I AM" is not the root of all that there is to be know. Nisargadatta called it prior to consciousness, upon what does consciousness rest. Nisargadatta mentioned that once one is firmly stablized in the "I AM" one will realize that this is "not it". When one has the realization "I AM" there is still the "I". The absolute is prior to the "I AM" and can be known and embodied.
It is already embodied, there is no need to search for it as it was always there. Becoming stabilised in the 'I am' is simply understanding you are not apart from the universe, once ignorance is gone then everything else is illuminated. It's staying with the self that proves difficult at first(the I am). Kick the door in and let in the light.
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adamantclearlight
USA
410 Posts |
Posted - Feb 02 2010 : 5:36:29 PM
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wakeupneo, karl is neo(advaita)
Adamant |
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wakeupneo
USA
171 Posts |
Posted - Feb 02 2010 : 10:20:23 PM
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quote:
Collective past is only memory, there is only now. Does it really matter how a thing came about ? These are external things, stay with the self.
Right, the past is dead and irrelavant. I understand. However what are the dynamics of a decision based in the present moment. I'm saying that it's merely a stronger impulse overriding a lesser impulse... ie. taking the path of lest resistance. So forth as I see it, no free will.
Anyways, Free will, no free will, all mind sutff. Who wants to know? Who cares? I get it.
Instead focus on dissolving the questioner. |
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wakeupneo
USA
171 Posts |
Posted - Feb 02 2010 : 10:30:11 PM
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quote:
It is already embodied, there is no need to search for it as it was always there. Becoming stabilised in the 'I am' is simply understanding you are not apart from the universe, once ignorance is gone then everything else is illuminated. It's staying with the self that proves difficult at first(the I am). Kick the door in and let in the light.
It seems there is much more needed than intellectual understanding. At best on can reach the "I AM" through intellectual understanding. One needs to shift ones identity into it. There is an energetic shift that occurs which is over looked by many neo-advaitans. There is also a strong element of grace.
As far as the it's already embodied... if it's already embodied why this converstation, why these questions, these discussions. This discussion is a perfect example that there 'is' seperation.
From that level of attainment, living the absolute reality... yes you are right. However for some of us folk who are still embodied in the relative, this information does not help. In fact it can serve only to stagnate.
A little story that illustrates the whole issue....
Salih of Qazwin taught his disciples: whoever knocks
at the door continually, it will be opened to him.
Rabiya, hearing him one day, said: how long will you say,
it will be opened? The door has never been shut.
It is something rare in the history of Sufis, this small
anecdote. It is rare because both are enlightened:
Salih, a master in his own right, and Rabiya, a rare
woman, very rare, because very few women have
become enlightened. Rabiya is one of them.
Both are enlightened masters. Neither can be wrong,
both have to be true, but they contradict each other.
If Salih was a knowledgeable man, a pundit, there
would be no problem: of course, Rabiya has to be right.
But the problem is, Salih himself is a buddha! This man
Salih is as enlightened as Rabiya -- he cannot be wrong.
And of course there is no possibility of Rabiya being
wrong. Rabiya has to be right, and Salih has to be right.
That is the puzzle.
Salih continued. He didn't say even a single word to
Rabiya because what to say? -- she is right! The door
has never been shut. But this truth is meaningful only
when you have attained. When you have entered the
door, then you come to know that the door has never
been shut. But those who have not attained -- if you
say to them that the door has never been shut,
you misguide them. You don't help them; rather,
you hinder them, because if they hear that the door
has never been shut, you don't know how they are
going to interpret it. They are going to interpret it
in this way: then there is no need to knock on it
continuously, no need to knock when the door is
not shut. And if they don't knock, the door is going
to remain shut for them, because they will not open
to it. You need a constant knocking.
Rabiya is saying something which can be understood
only by the buddhas. But they don't need it! Salih,
of course, understood it; that's why he remained silent,
he wouldn't say anything. Of course Rabiya is right,
but he won't say anything. And Salih continued to
teach -- even after this encounter with Rabiya he
was heard again and again every day to say the
same thing: Whoever knocks at the door continually,
it will be opened to him. He didn't say a single word
to Rabiya because there was nothing to be said;
she was right. But that didn't change his own mind.
He continued. |
Edited by - wakeupneo on Feb 02 2010 11:21:41 PM |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Feb 03 2010 : 08:26:19 AM
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Yes, I know that is true for you as it was for me.
Always looking for a precise method to make things happen, wondering if you are on the correct path, doubting.
I can only tell you this:
- Have desire without expectation
- Be willing to give everything and receive nothing
- Look for the truth inside
That is the attitude to adopt. The practise can be anything at all as long as it serves to remind constantly (knocking on the door is a good analogy).
If you are anything but totally pure in those attitudes then the only way is to repeat your chosen practise for as long as it takes.
Asking everyone along the mountain path 'how far is it to the top ?' will not make the journey any faster, or any easier.It will happen and however long it takes is just perfect.
As the line in the Matrix goes, 'there is a big difference between knowing the path and walking the path'. There is much knowledge from books and Guru's, eventually you have to decide to put it into effect.
You choose to stagnate. I knew nothing more than what I have now told you. It served me then and it serves me now. It will also serve you if you just let it. Then you will be asked the same strange questions and you had better have much better answers 
Above all, be kind to yourself.
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Feb 08 2010 : 06:00:40 AM
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and apologies for my lack of humility  |
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adamantclearlight
USA
410 Posts |
Posted - Feb 08 2010 : 10:47:20 AM
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There's a big difference between the knowing path and the path of darkness.
Adamant |
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My rant about free will or lack thereof
