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Tibetan_Ice
Canada
758 Posts |
 Posted - Jan 28 2010 : 11:08:03 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by alwayson2
wow this thread got out of my hand lol
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Sorry alwayson.. Didn't mean to derail the train. I deleted my post..
:(
TI |
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alwayson2
USA
546 Posts |
Posted - Jan 29 2010 : 12:47:22 AM
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I would say stare at the star/thigle for many hours per day for years.
although this is quite a bit of time to spend on a hunch |
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michaelangelo7
USA
89 Posts |
Posted - Jan 29 2010 : 11:05:59 AM
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yogis and prophets have been dissolving the physical body back into the light or subtle body for aeons and continue to do so still today. By doing this one directly ascends into Heaven without having a physical death.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZnBeuFOS2s
"The yogi may see his rainbow-hued astral body with its subtle spine of the fiery sushumna and its intertwining nadis of ida and pingala currents. Within the astral spinal centers, the activities of the elemental creative powers of earth, water, fire, air, and ether may be seen as light rays of various hues and forms. Atop the astral spine is the luminous sun of the spiritual eye."
http://yogananda.com.au/pyr/pyr_eye1.html
astral light:"The subtle light emanating from lifetrons (see prana); the structural essence of the astral world. Through the all-inclusive intuitive perception of the soul, devotees in concentrated stares of meditation may perceive the astral light, particularly as the spiritual eye."
http://yogananda.com.au/g/g_astral_light.html
astral world:"The subtle sphere of the Lord's creation, a universe of light and color composed of finer-than-atomic forces, i.e., vibrations of life energy or lifetrons.....At physical death, the soul of man, clothed in an astral body of light, ascends to one of the higher or lower astral planes, according to merit, to continue his spiritual evolution in the greater freedom of that subtle realm."
http://yogananda.com.au/g/g_astral_world.html
Once again I highly disagree with Kirtanman and the sources he referenced, the star/thigle/bindu does NOT take you to the absolute, but only to the astral heavens, which isn't a bad thing, everyone here is going there after this life, don't be ignorant and think you have made it to the absolute because you can penetrate astral light.
here from Autobiography of a Yogi
"With this celestial promise Sri Yukteswar vanished from my sight. A cloud-voice repeated in musical thunder: "Tell all! Whosoever knows by nirbikalpa realization that your earth is a dream of God can come to the finer dream-created planet of Hiranyaloka, and there find me resurrected in a body exactly like my earthly one. Yogananda, tell all!"
Hiranyaloka meaning "Higher Illumined Astral Planet"
http://www.crystalclarity.com/yogan.../chap43.html
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Edited by - michaelangelo7 on Jan 29 2010 11:44:21 AM |
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alwayson2
USA
546 Posts |
Posted - Jan 29 2010 : 11:46:48 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by michaelangelo7
Once again I highly disagree with Kirtanman and the sources he referenced, the star/thigle/bindu does NOT take you to the absolute, but only to the astral heavens, which isn't a bad thing, everyone here is going there after this life, don't be ignorant and think you have made it to the absolute because you can penetrate astral light.
Why would EITHER of you think the star/thigle takes you anywhere?
My hunch is not based on this.
Although I am more inclined to agree with Kirtanman, because I disagree with Mike that the star is simply astral light. There is a difference between astral sight/clairvoyance and the star. See my "How to Perform Magick with Yoga" thread. |
Edited by - alwayson2 on Jan 29 2010 11:50:19 AM |
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adamantclearlight
USA
410 Posts |
Posted - Jan 29 2010 : 12:12:52 PM
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I have a hunch the aspiration to help all beings attain liberation is important. It generates powerful energy in one's own continuum, touches all the enlightened beings and reminds them of their vows to us. All appearances and possibilities are the bindu of the absolute. Without this correct view devoid of preferences, all attempts to reach the "infinite" or the "rainbow body" will result in a samsaric existence result from desire and attachment.
Adamant |
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michaelangelo7
USA
89 Posts |
Posted - Jan 29 2010 : 2:16:16 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by alwayson2
quote:
Originally posted by michaelangelo7
Once again I highly disagree with Kirtanman and the sources he referenced, the star/thigle/bindu does NOT take you to the absolute, but only to the astral heavens, which isn't a bad thing, everyone here is going there after this life, don't be ignorant and think you have made it to the absolute because you can penetrate astral light.
Why would EITHER of you think the star/thigle takes you anywhere?
My hunch is not based on this.
Although I am more inclined to agree with Kirtanman, because I disagree with Mike that the star is simply astral light. There is a difference between astral sight/clairvoyance and the star. See my "How to Perform Magick with Yoga" thread.
because it does, passing thru the star will result in loss of body consciousness and all that remians is the light, even Yogani says the white star at the end of the sushumna leads to the realms of white light. the star is most certainly composed of ether/prana and is part of the subtle body system as yogananda and myself have said. by mastering and passing thru the star one enters nirvikalpa samadhi, there are many objects of meditation that lead to nirvikalpa or nirvana, the inner sounds or meditation on AUM sounds is another way to get to heaven after this life as yogananda has outlined in his SRF teachings.
once again from yogananda:
"devotees in concentrated states of meditation may perceive the astral light, particularly as the spiritual eye."
the star is one of countless objects of meditation as i said in my first post and i will stand by that |
Edited by - michaelangelo7 on Jan 29 2010 2:41:23 PM |
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alwayson2
USA
546 Posts |
Posted - Jan 29 2010 : 3:47:49 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by michaelangelo7
the star is one of countless objects of meditation as i said in my first post and i will stand by that
I guess thats the crux of the argument. I believe the star is unique, and not just another object of mediation. |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jan 29 2010 : 8:30:00 PM
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Hi michaelangelo7,
Based on what you wrote in the quote below:
quote:
i do not agree with kirtanman or swami jnaneshvar. the bindu or light point is astral or subtle light, piercing or penetrating it will result in the loss of body consciousness and all that remains is the light. passing thru the bindu only takes you to the astral/subtle plane, it does not take you to the absolute nor even the causal plane.
It seems that you may have simply misunderstood me.
It also seems that you may misunderstand some of the dynamics of the planes of consciousness, per their standard definitions, at least.
For instance, many yogis and yoginis experience astral realms and astral dynamics  .. which are in the realm of psychic form. Yogic sadhana often improves ability to perceive/experience this plane, but there is usually not a loss of consciousness.
Loss of consciousness upon encountering the causal plane is very common, however; the individual self-idea doesn't know what to do with object-free consciousness ... and so, it falls asleep.
All of this is very directly mapped not only via wisdom traditions, but via the types of experiences people have based on the dominant frequency of their brainwaves (Google terms like: brain waves waking dreaming sleep etc., if interested).
As yoga-meditation sadhana progresses, the ability to remain conscious as our brain waves get slower and slower increases; for instance, physical sleep and samadhi have very similar brainwave frequencies; the only difference is: in samadhi, we're conscious; when sleeping (by definition) we're not (however, "waking sleep" is a common experience of relatively advanced meditators; it is simply another term for samadhi).
Regarding your misunderstanding of what I said (and sorry if I wasn't clear, though I'm pretty sure I was) ...
I'm not saying the star and the bindu are the same, nor am I saying the bindu is anything other than a symbol, representing how consciousness actually operates.
And please remember:
I'm speaking from the standpoint of my ongoing experience of the full range of awareness-consciousness-manifestation.
I would guess, but cannot confirm at this time, that Swami Jnaneshvar likely is speaking from his own experience, as well (you'd have to ask him; I'm guessing he's fairly accessible, though).
If you're speaking from any viewpoint other than your own experience, it'll all become clear enough when you experience it for yourself.
There's really no point in discussing this, in any case; one's own experiencing is all that matters; anything anyone else says is just a transient mental form, held by a transient mental form; gone in an instant.
However, if you have anything else to say about this topic, or have any questions, I'm happy to discuss it, if you like.
quote:
Originally posted by michaelangelo7
Once again I highly disagree with Kirtanman and the sources he referenced, the star/thigle/bindu does NOT take you to the absolute, but only to the astral heavens, which isn't a bad thing, everyone here is going there after this life, don't be ignorant and think you have made it to the absolute because you can penetrate astral light.
I can't speak to the term "thigle", but the star and the bindu are *not* the same thing.
The star is, itself, a manifestation in/from the (so-called) astral plane. In plain language: it's a psychic manifestation ... a form generated in mind, perceived by a form generated in mind (aka the individual self/the limited subject; the negative correlate of the object).
It's a sign of purification and progress on the yogic path; that's about it.
All the truly important stuff in yogic sadhana is about subjective experience; who-what it feels like (or not) that you are, as the experiencing subject; what the self (or lack thereof) feels like ... and not about objects in awareness, be they words on a screen, lights in your head, or maps and models of consciousness.
Wisdom traditions are fairly precise about this sort of thing:
The term Physical describes something that is tangible, perceptible via the physical senses, and experienced by everyone within sensory range of that object.
The terms Causal describes that which is prior-subsequent to the planes of form; it contains that which is latent, potential, archetypal and below the range of active, form-based individual consciousness.
The term Astral is between these two: anything which has form, but is not physical. Period.
The Absolute is the formless, motionless Subject from which the rest of it (Causal, Astral, Physical) arises; it's very simple, really.
From most-manifest to the source of all manifestation, the planes of consciousness-being are described in certain models as:
Physical
Astral
Causal
Absolute
The Absolute is the Self; everything arises from it.
The bindu symbolizes the point at which the stillness of the self moves/emanates, and begins to create, form and act.
Swami Jnaneshvar writes:
"The Bindu is near the end of the subtlest aspect of mind itself, after which one travels beyond or transcends the mind and its contents. It is near the end of time, space, and causation, and is the doorway to the Absolute."
This is the whole point *of* the symbolism of the bindu:
The Bindu represents that fact that *all* of the manifested realms originate-arise from the same source .... the same single point which represents the emanation of the absolute: the infinite, changeless subject that we each and all actually are, now.
I hope that clears everything up.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
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Edited by - Kirtanman on Jan 29 2010 8:38:04 PM |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jan 29 2010 : 8:33:43 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by adamantclearlight
I have a hunch the aspiration to help all beings attain liberation is important. It generates powerful energy in one's own continuum, touches all the enlightened beings and reminds them of their vows to us. All appearances and possibilities are the bindu of the absolute. Without this correct view devoid of preferences, all attempts to reach the "infinite" or the "rainbow body" will result in a samsaric existence result from desire and attachment.
Adamant
I couldn't have said it better myself.
And so, I won't even try.
Thank you very much, Adamant.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman |
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adamantclearlight
USA
410 Posts |
Posted - Jan 29 2010 : 8:57:08 PM
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Hi Kirtanman, Few points of departure: 1) The nibbana-element is not a subjective experience, but an objective fact (the only non-relative); at least sayeth Buddha . 2) Nothing arises from it; it is the "nonarising." Nibbana is the undifferentiated ground. Phenomena, being diverse, arise and fall, but not into the nibbana-element. Phenomena find their deaths in further levels of aggregation. It takes a complete relinquishment and renunciation of all phenomena and experience to recognize total liberation. For example, in the Upanishads the masters realize the Self to the extent of "nothingness" or "neither perception nor non-perception." Each of these is a perch, subject to change, suffering and belonging to no one. Where the Brahmins in the Upanishads order their disciples to hold the Self dear. The Buddha told his disciples to hold nothing dear. "The Truth" is Unobtainium.
Adamant |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jan 29 2010 : 9:07:06 PM
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Hi All,
I found Another Useful Map (AUM) of the various planes of consciousness being discussed in this thread, along with the bindu (which again, I am not equating with the star; neither is SwamiJ; please see my previous posts in this thread for my view concerning the star {the light/star sometimes seen between the eyebrows, from the inside, during meditation, usually}).
Also, here is an overview of that awesome, useful map (AUM), by Swami Jnaneshvar:
"The lower curve (of AUM) represents the Gross, Conscious, and Waking state level, called Vaishvanara.
The center curve (of AUM) represents the Subtle, Unconscious, and Dreaming level, called Taijasa.
The upper curve (of AUM) represents the Causal, Subconscious, and Deep Sleep level, called Prajna.
The dot, point, or Bindu represents the fourth state, the absolute consciousness, which encompasses, permeates, and is the other three, and is called Turiya.
The arc below the dot symbolizes the separateness of this fourth state, standing above, though ever remaining part of the other three.
The four levels symbolized in OM Mantra are universal: It is extremely important to understand that the levels of consciousness mapped out by the OM Mantra symbol are universal and not just within the domain of any particular traditions, lineages, schools of Meditation, or religions. While one might argue that the visual symbol of OM Mantra has this kind of exclusive relationship (though it really doesn't), these three levels and the fourth, the Bindu, do exist in reality, entirely independent of the symbol itself. It doesn't matter whether you do or do not "believe in" the OM Mantra.
The fact of the matter is that there really are Gross, Subtle, and Causal planes, along with the Absolute beyond (the four parts of OM), regardless of what symbol or names you use to describe them, though different people might describe these somewhat differently.
The fact is that there really are Conscious, Unconscious, and Subconscious levels of functioning, and the Consciousness permeating them (the four parts of OM), though people might also describe these somewhat differently.
The fact is that there really are states of Waking, Dreaming, Deep Sleep, and Turiya, the Fourth (the four parts of OM), or some other term to acknowledge that beyond the first three states.
None of these require "belief" in the visual symbol of OM, chanting its vibration, or remembering its sound. The underlying realities are still there. What is most important to know is that the shortest route to Self-Realization is directly through these few levels of reality. Most people will settle for experiencing only the first two levels, that of the Gross world (Vaishvanara) and the Subtle plane (Taijasa).
Very few are interested enough or motivated enough to know the Causal plane (Prajna) or to seek the direct experience of the Pure Consciousness, the Absolute that is the Fourth state (Turiya) symbolized by the Dot or Bindu on the OM symbol.
For the few who are so inspired, the path is directly inward to the core of his or her Being. It is the path of the Saints and Sages."
If you found this interesting, SwamiJ has a very profound video on AUM, as well.
And please note: I'm not posting this information to further discuss anything outside of the original scope of Alwayon's post. I'm simply posting it as a reference, because it seems to offer some clarifying details related to the bindu.
I hope it's helpful.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
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adamantclearlight
USA
410 Posts |
Posted - Jan 29 2010 : 9:16:23 PM
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quote:
Samadhi Sutta: Concentration
"There are, O monks, these three feelings: pleasant feelings, painful feelings, and
neither-painful-nor-pleasant feelings."
A disciple of the Buddha, mindful,
clearly comprehending, with his mind collected,
he knows the feelings [1] and their origin, [2]
knows whereby they cease  and knows the path
that to the ending of feelings lead. [4]
And when the end of feelings he has reached,
such a monk, his thirsting quenched, attains Nibbana." [5]
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jan 29 2010 : 9:32:48 PM
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Hi Adamant,
quote:
Originally posted by adamantclearlight
Hi Kirtanman, Few points of departure: 1) The nibbana-element is not a subjective experience, but an objective fact (the only non-relative); at least sayeth Buddha . 2) Nothing arises from it; it is the "nonarising." Nibbana is the undifferentiated ground. Phenomena, being diverse, arise and fall, but not into the nibbana-element. Phenomena find their deaths in further levels of aggregation. It takes a complete relinquishment and renunciation of all phenomena and experience to recognize total liberation. For example, in the Upanishads the masters realize the Self to the extent of "nothingness" or "neither perception nor non-perception." Each of these is a perch, subject to change, suffering and belonging to no one. Where the Brahmins in the Upanishads order their disciples to hold the Self dear. The Buddha told his disciples to hold nothing dear. "The Truth" is Unobtainium.
Adamant
I'm cool with that; I see/experience all this kind of thing as maps/models/pointers (whether it be Buddhism, Kashmir Shaivism, Advaita Vedanta, Kabbalah, or anything else).
All systems are indicators of reality.
Philosophically, we might agree on some points and/or disagree on others (in fact, Buddhists and Shaivites have a long, usually-amiable history of doing that ... even those among them who well knew that no "ism" is more than a useful map, and that the map is not the territory).
It's not about the philosophy, but where the philosophy leads us.
When I say "subject" or "subjective", I'm just referring to the view; the experiencing ... the field which contains the stuff (cars, houses, ideas, sense of self, dreams, archetypes, unmanifest potential; you name it {I name it; we all name it} ... whether it be held by the self, or selfless awareness, or pure being .... all words and terms are left behind at a certain-uncertain point.
And so, I don't quite get how the "nibbana element" could be something of importance, if it is indeed an object.
However, maybe that's a terminology thing.
I invite your clarification, if you'd like to offer it.
And I do get what you're saying; Kashmir Shaivism, at least, doesn't disagree, necessarily ... hence the (frequent, but ultimately non-applicable) symbolism of Shiva and Shakti as two separate beings.
However, it is said that at the essential level "Shiva and Shakti don't know they are separate".
The whole idea that movement-manifestation operates on one side of reality, and the undifferentiated, changeless ground of (self, non-self, Alvin-the-Uber-Chipmunk ... whatever you want to call it ...  ) on the "other" can be as useful a teaching as that which says it's all connected.
Ultimately, all I can speak from is experience, which is:
Changelessness (actual being, by any name) isn't affected by Change ("Let the world be the world; let the girl be the girl; let it dance with itself; let it run its own game." ~LIVE).
Yet, at the same non-time, now .... Change/Becoming is utterly dependent on the changeless for it's existence.
On the one hand, Change and Changelessness have nothing to do with one another; on the other hand, if not for the Changeless .... no change, no form, no nothing ... would be here at all.
What could exist if awareness wasn't aware of it?
Dependent origin dependently originates.
It can be said that it originates from/on/as/whatever the absolute ground ... but the absolute ground has to be here for this to be pertinent at all.
Yes?
And, as it seems is the case with you (and I say this with a sense of respect and affinity ) .. nothing I say is said to be right, or prove anything per se, or to promote one system over another.
It's all and only about liberation.
Period.
On that .... I'm confident we agree.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
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Edited by - Kirtanman on Jan 29 2010 10:47:41 PM |
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adamantclearlight
USA
410 Posts |
Posted - Jan 29 2010 : 9:42:23 PM
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Hi Kirtanman, I'll let Sariputta answer from "The Sariputta Sutta":
quote:
Then Ven. Ananda went to Ven. Sariputta and, on arrival, exchanged courteous greetings with him. After an exchange of friendly greetings & courtesies, he sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he said to Ven. Sariputta, "Friend Sariputta, could a monk have an attainment of concentration such that he would neither be percipient of earth with regard to earth, nor of water with regard to water, nor of fire... wind... the dimension of the infinitude of space... the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness... the dimension of nothingness... the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception... this world... nor of the next world with regard to the next world, and yet he would still be percipient?"
"Yes, friend Ananda, he could..."
"But how, friend Sariputta, could a monk have an attainment of concentration such he would neither be percipient of earth with regard to earth... nor of the next world with regard to the next world, and yet he would still be percipient?"
"Once, friend Ananda, when I was staying right here in Savatthi in the Blind Man's Grove, I reached concentration in such a way that I was neither percipient of earth with regard to earth... nor of the next world with regard to the next world, and yet I was still percipient."
"But what, friend Sariputta, were you percipient of at that time?"
"'The cessation of becoming — Unbinding — the cessation of becoming — Unbinding': One perception arose in me, friend Ananda, as another perception ceased. Just as in a blazing woodchip fire, one flame arises as another flame ceases, even so, 'The cessation of becoming — Unbinding — the cessation of becoming — Unbinding': One perception arose in me as another one ceased. I was percipient at that time of 'The cessation of becoming — Unbinding.'"
Adamant |
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adamantclearlight
USA
410 Posts |
Posted - Jan 29 2010 : 9:47:42 PM
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P.S., The nibbana-element is of utmost importance, because it is the reality of liberation, rather than the illusion. The difference between the Self and nibbana is subtle, but real.
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alwayson2
USA
546 Posts |
Posted - Jan 29 2010 : 9:52:37 PM
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What the heck happened to rigpa?
Rigpa is so simple compared to all of this. |
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Tibetan_Ice
Canada
758 Posts |
Posted - Jan 29 2010 : 10:12:50 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by adamantclearlight
"But what, friend Sariputta, were you percipient of at that time?"
"'The cessation of becoming — Unbinding — the cessation of becoming — Unbinding': One perception arose in me, friend Ananda, as another perception ceased. Just as in a blazing woodchip fire, one flame arises as another flame ceases, even so, 'The cessation of becoming — Unbinding — the cessation of becoming — Unbinding': One perception arose in me as another one ceased. I was percipient at that time of 'The cessation of becoming — Unbinding.'"
Ok. You've got me there. This line "One perception arose in me as another one ceased." reminds me of something I read yesterday on an ex-Kunlun practitioner's post:
http://kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.c...axResults=20
quote:
87. RE: AugustLeo's Practice Notes
Wednesday, 8:35 PM EST | Post edited: Wednesday, 8:35 PM EST
Last night, it happened.
Woke up from a deep sleep and it began naturally, on it's own. Watched as one self did this. Another self did that. Some other self did something else. An endless progression of selves being born and dying as no self watched. All day today, now as I write this, self after self after self ...
"See how it types."
Not a practice, the way it is.
Now this sure sounds like "The cessation of becoming — Unbinding" to me. Doesn't it? By the way, that forum is hosted by Kenneth Folk and I wonder if that is the same Kenneth the David Ingram refers to as his friend in his book "Mastering the Core Teachings of Buddha". The practices are the same..
:)
TI
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adamantclearlight
USA
410 Posts |
Posted - Jan 29 2010 : 10:13:17 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by alwayson2
What the heck happened to rigpa?
Rigpa is so simple compared to all of this.
This is rigpa:
quote:
This was said by the Lord...
"There is, bhikkhus, a not-born, a not-brought-to-being, a not-made, a not-conditioned. If, bhikkhus, there were no not-born, not-brought-to-being, not-made, not-conditioned, no escape would be discerned from what is born, brought-to-being, made, conditioned. But since there is a not-born, a not-brought-to-being, a not-made, a not-conditioned, therefore an escape is discerned from what is born, brought-to-being, made, conditioned."
The born, come-to-be, produced, The made, the conditioned, the transient, Conjoined with decay and death, A nest of disease, perishable, Sprung from nutriment and craving's cord — That is not fit to take delight in. The escape from that, the peaceful, Beyond reasoning, everlasting, The not-born, the unproduced, The sorrowless state that is void of stain, The cessation of states linked to suffering, The stilling of the conditioned — bliss.
...
Having understood the unconditioned state, Released in mind with the cord of being destroyed, They have attained to the Dhamma-essence. Delighting in the destruction (of craving), Those stable ones have abandoned all being.
Adamant |
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Holy
796 Posts |
Posted - Jan 29 2010 : 10:41:14 PM
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Hi all, hope I can chime in with some clarifications.
At first, to what Yogananda says in his various books like in the collected talks, the autobiography, the commentaries on the bhagavad gita and the bible (have read them all many times):
- penetrating the star or the area/space/point between the eyebrows leads to nirvikalpa samadhi or christ consiousness, which ( he explains in every of those books in detail, like Christi pointed out too) is merging of the conscious seer with the whole vibrating universe. In other words oneness with the manifest that according to his interpretation is the son. --> self realization
- merging with the crown chakra leads to the absolute, which is covering the whole moving/vibrating universe and "expanding" to the unmoving beyond, the witness. Also interpretated by him as the father --> god realization
And that is according to him what Jesus said. "I am one with the father" means "the christ consciousness/vibrating universe is one with the non-vibrating/unmoving/absolute".
Lahiri Mahasaya says in short: silence merging with bliss. Nothing different from what Yogani or anyone else says.
A fully realized yogi of the same kriya lineage, Gurunath, speaks out of his own experience about exactly this topic. Highly recommended: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rrw7bE_a4NY
I think there is not much more to say about it. Perhaps:
The classical yogic chakra map gives the same hints. Maybe not in detail but the rest is up to direct experience and realization anyway. All this blabla itself is distracting. In that sense thanks to Kirtanman for continued reminder of what is here ;)
- Root to heart chakras related to 4 elements: earth, water, fire, air.
- All four are nothing else than space/ether/akasha in movement --> 5th chakra related to space/time/sound/substance of beingness.
- 6th chakra, or lets say the heighth-"between the eyebrows" is related to the witness/the self/presence
- 7th chakra, transcendence of the witness / the absolute / the ultimate mystery / that about naught may be said / etc.
The chakras work like doors. Totally merging with one chakra gives realization(s) about its "topic". In other word, the human body has 7 main themes, or lets say main tv channels =P Which one you like most? The 6th channel is one of my favorites, reminds you that you are watching. The first 5 have great movies. Ok, the fifth one can shock a little bit (butterfly effect like). The press button for the 7th channel, mhh, perhaps there is no one.
A good night wish from the one same whatever to itself :) |
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adamantclearlight
USA
410 Posts |
Posted - Jan 29 2010 : 10:52:59 PM
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Hi TI, Yeah, like staring at the edge of a waterfall. It's so clear.
Adamant |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jan 29 2010 : 10:55:14 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by adamantclearlight
Hi Kirtanman, I'll let Sariputta answer from "The Sariputta Sutta":
quote:
Then Ven. Ananda went to Ven. Sariputta and, on arrival, exchanged courteous greetings with him. After an exchange of friendly greetings & courtesies, he sat to one side. As he was sitting there, he said to Ven. Sariputta, "Friend Sariputta, could a monk have an attainment of concentration such that he would neither be percipient of earth with regard to earth, nor of water with regard to water, nor of fire... wind... the dimension of the infinitude of space... the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness... the dimension of nothingness... the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception... this world... nor of the next world with regard to the next world, and yet he would still be percipient?"
"Yes, friend Ananda, he could..."
"But how, friend Sariputta, could a monk have an attainment of concentration such he would neither be percipient of earth with regard to earth... nor of the next world with regard to the next world, and yet he would still be percipient?"
"Once, friend Ananda, when I was staying right here in Savatthi in the Blind Man's Grove, I reached concentration in such a way that I was neither percipient of earth with regard to earth... nor of the next world with regard to the next world, and yet I was still percipient."
"But what, friend Sariputta, were you percipient of at that time?"
"'The cessation of becoming — Unbinding — the cessation of becoming — Unbinding': One perception arose in me, friend Ananda, as another perception ceased. Just as in a blazing woodchip fire, one flame arises as another flame ceases, even so, 'The cessation of becoming — Unbinding — the cessation of becoming — Unbinding': One perception arose in me as another one ceased. I was percipient at that time of 'The cessation of becoming — Unbinding.'"
Adamant
Exactly so.
Becoming-Unbinding
The Spanda; the Vibration.
Shakti.
Occuring within-from-as ... THIS; the Ground; the Changeless One.
Shiva.
Different terms; different description.
Same reality.
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adamantclearlight
USA
410 Posts |
Posted - Jan 29 2010 : 11:41:01 PM
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Hi Kirtanman, You missed the part about cessation, cessation of becoming, not becoming. Vibration is painful and temporary; all the other words you mention are synonyms for suffering.
Adamant |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jan 30 2010 : 12:11:05 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by adamantclearlight
Hi Kirtanman, You missed the part about cessation, cessation of becoming, not becoming. Vibration is painful and temporary; all the other words you mention are synonyms for suffering.
Adamant
I guess it's a terminology thing, then (the systems/terms that we each know, referring to different things).
When I used the term Shiva, I'm referring to the state of/beyond cessation; called "repose" in Kashmir Shaivism.
Unless I misunderstood, the one monk was speaking of Becoming-Unbinding as one dynamic, yet experiencing, at last, that which was prior to// beyond that dynamic ... yet, experiencing the dynamic, too.
Which is kind of how it goes.
It you're saying "synonyms for suffering in Buddhist doctrine" ... I'll defer to you, on that.
If you're saying synonyms for suffering in experience; all I can say is: not in my experience (understanding that "my" in a convention of language; nothing more).
And maybe I wasn't clear, I'll try to be:
Becoming-Unbinding is *binding* when one experiences this dynamic as something they *are*; it is liberating when it is recognized as the play-display *of* (part of) this that we each and all are, now.
There's obviously display, obviously appearance; but is there mis-identification, attachment?
It's the mis-identification that creates the suffering.
When one experiences oneself to be the ground of being, the changeless, and all appearance-experience as the displaying-dissolving (<- becoming-unbinding) of this that we each and all ever are, now; that's living, unbound.
Cessation-only seems like what the Buddha was warning against, yes?
Not active-only, not passive-only; harmonious, balanced.
Becoming is only binding when we think we're actually becoming.
The play of consciousness is great fun when it's experienced as play.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
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adamantclearlight
USA
410 Posts |
Posted - Jan 30 2010 : 02:32:50 AM
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Hi Kirtanman, I think Sariputta is describing seeing the process of becoming cease every moment. The Buddha is not warning against cessation; cessation is nibbana. But one is mindful of how feeling, name and form cease with the relinquishment of desire for becoming. One does not "give birth" to new being/name/form/feeling/desire, but instead sees how being presently ceases. Because with the cessation of feeling all else ceases with it, including name and form, and therefore, being has no meaning (words fail). Such is the precise conception of nibbana.
Adamant |
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adamantclearlight
USA
410 Posts |
Posted - Jan 30 2010 : 02:39:38 AM
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Love this quote:
"'Gone out.' He cannot be defined, and has confused the Lord of Death."
Adamant |
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