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michaelangelo7
USA
89 Posts |
 Posted - Jan 30 2010 : 1:37:02 PM
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kirtanman
Causal plane is the creator plane where beings create universes and this is also mentioned in autobiography of a yogi, it has nothing to do with deep sleep, no yogi could make it to that superconsciousness level in this human body otherwise there would be men and women running around creating universes..... all yogis reside in the astral brain or thousand petal lotus until death and go to the astral heavens to continue the journey like we will.
and then you said "The Absolute is the formless, motionless Subject from which the rest of it (Causal, Astral, Physical) arises; it's very simple, really."
the absolute or supreme being, is just that, a being, krishna has a personality like you and me, he is the supreme personality. only the ignorant think the supreme lord has no form as krishna says and makes very clear in the bhagavad gita. and then reveals his form here:
"Arjuna saw the Universal Form of the Lord with many mouths and eyes, and many visions of marvel, with numerous divine ornaments, and holding divine weapons. (11.10)
Wearing divine garlands and apparel, anointed with celestial perfumes and ointments, full of all wonders, the limitless God with faces on all sides. (11.11)
If the splendor of thousands of suns were to blaze forth all at once in the sky, even that would not resemble the splendor of that exalted being. (11.12)
Arjuna saw the entire universe, divided in many ways, but standing as (all in) One (and One in all) in the body of Krishna, the God of gods. (11.13)
alwaysson
this is why it is impossible for the star to be of the causal or absolute plane, it is most certainly of astral/subtle nature. passing thru the star does not allow you to create universes which is the primary focus of the causal plane, so the star must be below that, in the astral |
Edited by - michaelangelo7 on Jan 30 2010 2:30:59 PM |
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alwayson2
USA
546 Posts |
Posted - Jan 30 2010 : 2:51:09 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by michaelangelo7
alwaysson
this is why it is impossible for the star to be of the causal or absolute plane, it is most certainly of astral/subtle nature.
Mike, I don't think the star has anything to do with any plane. It has to do with the heart chakra and primordial wisdom lights. |
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michaelangelo7
USA
89 Posts |
Posted - Jan 30 2010 : 3:36:43 PM
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then why is the star seen in the head and not at the heart level.
the wisdom lights are the 5 pure lights of the 5 elements, this theory falls apart when the white star is seen sometimes by itself like a full moon, sometimes with gold ring blue center, or as rainbow concentric rings of the 7 colors of the rainbow. the colored lights couldn't represent the 5 elements because there are more colored lights seen than just 5, i have heard this theory before, i have sometimes heard they represent moods or emotions, this also is speculation i do not agree with
the star is nothing more than a 3rd eye vision and is different for everybody |
Edited by - michaelangelo7 on Jan 30 2010 3:51:01 PM |
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Tibetan_Ice
Canada
758 Posts |
Posted - Jan 30 2010 : 5:07:35 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by michaelangelo7
then why is the star seen in the head and not at the heart level.
the wisdom lights are the 5 pure lights of the 5 elements, this theory falls apart when the white star is seen sometimes by itself like a full moon, sometimes with gold ring blue center, or as rainbow concentric rings of the 7 colors of the rainbow. the colored lights couldn't represent the 5 elements because there are more colored lights seen than just 5, i have heard this theory before, i have sometimes heard they represent moods or emotions, this also is speculation i do not agree with
the star is nothing more than a 3rd eye vision and is different for everybody
Hi Michaelangelo :)
The star is not the moon, or the sun or the other various visions you get by looking/gazing at the brow area. For the sake of this discussion, let's call the brow area the third eye.
The third eye is merely a reflective screen. It appears like a slice or curtain of light that descends or appears naturally as you go deeper and deeper into states of relaxation while keeping your visual attention at an angle toward the brows. However, the reflective screen will appear on it's own without focusing your visual attention as you go deeper and deeper into relaxation.
The third eye will reflect the star (a holographic effect) and it depends on your angle of attention (the linear position or perspective that your attention is aligned in).
The third eye will also reflect dreams, visions and other scenery.
If you focus your awareness back into the head, in front of the pineal gland, you will notice (I do) a small area of moving light. Perhaps that is the pituitary? When I penetrate or focus on that little area of light, all of a sudden I'm in the dream world, lots of visions, colors, faces etc.. If I change my perspective to the third eye at that point (out in front of the center of the brows), what ever has appeared is being reflected there as well. Maybe it is safer to focus on the reflection rather than the gland. Or perhaps Yogananda's idea that by gazing at the third eye it will cause the magnetic polarity from the medulla to the brows to eventually shift and that is why he says to keep focusing on or beyond the center of the brows.. ?
From my experience, the real star is seen from the perspective that you are looking up at it from inside the sushumna, as if your center was in the heart looking upwards. Or your vantage point can even be from a lower or higher chakra location too, it depends on which chakra your consciousness/awarenss is rooted in at the time.
It is the same kind of 'seeing' that you can push up and down the sushumna. I call that 'heart seeing'. It is an internal type of seeing and when you see through it, things sometimes looks "flamey". Other times the sight is crystal clear like better than HDTV. When I do this kind of 'seeing', it feels like I've entered a different plane of existence and the physical dimension is completely separate. Sometimes that 'flamey' eye appears between the brows too. Then you can use it to view the outer world at the same time as you are looking through your physical eyes. When I see like that, most people look like they have a very large black candle-flame-shaped flame that starts at the navel and progresses upwards to about their throat region. Sometimes there is a red dot in the flame at the navel, other times there are other colored flames encasing the dark flame. I think the variation in flame size and colors has to do with the person's level of spiritual evolution. I don't know..
There is also a front path/tunnel from the heart to the third eye, the heart can view the outer world through this path/tunnel as it encompasses not only the brow area but both physical eyes as well. But the heart doesn't need to use these channels to see because the heart has it's own peripheral vision that is like a large area of space that extends outwards from the body like a big egg. To get at that, you just have to feel from the heart.
But, to see the star, you have to use the other channel that goes straight up to a few inches above the head. The star could well be a lot higher than a few inches above the head, it's just how I tend to interpret it's position in physical terms. It's like trying to measure the size of an object in a dream and compare it to the size of your bed in the outer world while you are dreaming.. Like comparing metrics from separate dimensions..
:)
TI |
Edited by - Tibetan_Ice on Jan 30 2010 5:40:59 PM |
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Holy
796 Posts |
Posted - Jan 30 2010 : 5:08:46 PM
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I think some more clarification is needed.
The planes.
The astral plane is not something that is somewhere else, it is directly here and now. Those who get more sensitive through practices can see it directly and at the same time see that the physical plane is build out of and penetrated through the astral plane, as the astral plane is build out of the mental plane, that again is build out of the causal plane and so on. Like ice in water and water in gas and gas in space. All one and the same thing, just different densities and frequencies in relation to the perceiving body system.
To make it more clear, your left finger for example consists of atoms, they again consist of electrons, neutrons, protons. They again consist of quarks. In this point science finds it limit, but not you. Atoms consist of astral atoms, the astral plane again has many densities, solid, liquid, gas and many etheric vibrations. Those astral particles again are made of mental particles, yeah thoughts! It gets smaller and smaller. In every atom, you find a solar system, a whole universe. Living beings, past, present future relations. The mental particles go into causal particles which are even less dense, so loose that most people can't see them. This is the part where the thought-wave dissolves in space and comes out of space again. Exactly that split moment where the wave of thought-movement goes into the field of being, there you can watch cause and effect. There you also get the glimpse of bliss. This is what everyone passes though with every mantra repetition, again and again from unmoving to moving to unmoving.
And by getting more and more aware, you can trace the thoughts completely, seeing that they don't dissolve, just move around, creating this moment again and again in immense non-understandable complexity with all its in-between densities we call physical, astral, mental etc.
Focusing more and more to the point between the eyebrows let you see all planes of movement from physical to causal at the same time in its glorious god-light-music-bliss-dance-play.
This is not read from somewhere but comes from repeated direct experience. So please do your practices and give more direct experience output, otherwise the whole discussion is completely for nothing =P ( which it is anyway, except if it motivates you more to practice and get to know and see first hand! :)
This is also not the absolute, it is still a play of form and recognition, an immense joy and god-communion, but not the final. Only if this stops too, the unspeakable is revealed and with that realization happens. Realization can happen anytime before too, this is just the brute force method. But also the surest way for full complete realization =)
And the realization is, that the truth or absolute is always, before such stargate-vision of nonduality in form, during and after. It has nothing to do with believe, beings in other planes or anything else. Just, you, here and now, what moves, what not, what is always, who are you, what is the truth. No concepts no anything. Better go with this investigation while systematically cleaning the nervous system and being honest about anything else that you don't know or have no direct experience or realization of.
On the other side, as this thread has been opened for the purpose of speculation and play of words, just relax and go on. Nothing to lose or gain anyway.
I have not seen the star in any detailed way. But it gets more and more detailed over the long term. So if you just see a moon, look longer and closer and you will see more. It is not different for everybody, it is just that not everybody looks with the same concentration, nerval sensibility and awareness at that spot.
And although I've not seen it detailedly, even gross perception through prolonged focus causes flashes of immense awareness to the subtlest of subtlest and let you see the infinite dance of god, of your own true nature in movement in exactly this moment. The joyful play is on a more refined level with immense dynamic from physical to causal to astral to mental and back to physical in crazy rhythms, geometric poetry, ever changing infinite complexity. These are just examples of the smallest part. I can't even hope to imagine what a greatly developed human brain and nervous system like that of Yogani or Yogananda are capable of.
Just some observations from a starter practitioner. |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jan 31 2010 : 6:46:00 PM
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Hi Michaelangelo7,
Thanks for your post; it explains why we disagree.
My experience is quite a bit different from your views. However, I truly respect your views; no concern there.
A few comments below. I hope they're helpful to any/all reading.
quote:
Originally posted by michaelangelo7
kirtanman
Causal plane is the creator plane where beings create universes and this is also mentioned in autobiography of a yogi, it has nothing to do with deep sleep, no yogi could make it to that superconsciousness level in this human body otherwise there would be men and women running around creating universes..... all yogis reside in the astral brain or thousand petal lotus until death and go to the astral heavens to continue the journey like we will.
This is neither my understanding nor my experience.
Here's a very, very simple "go by" that can be extremely helpful for anyone who is willing to test it for themselves:
Nothing happens outside of consciousness.
As consciousness expands, so does the scope of experiencing. Conceptual understanding (such as you're citing here) is no match for reality.
In fact, and this is unspeakably important:
Belief Blocks Reality.
Let go of all ideas as to what the causal plane is (or what anything else is, for that matter); ideas are at the psychic/astral level, and they (ideas) block the experience of consciousness.
For individual self-ideas (aka "the limited self", "the me", "the ego", "the bound soul", etc.), the causal plane is the subconscious: latent memories, conditioned tendencies, etc.
The misperceptions stored at this level block the light of reality, and it seems impassible or utterly mysterious for quite some time, after starting yoga/spiritual practices ... until practices help to "step back past it" (past the void, where unconsciousness is the "ring pass not" of the Western esoteric paths).
Superconsciousness, Turiya; unagitated awareness liberated from all fictious concepts of partiality (aka "the ego", "the me") is not only accessible to everyone ... it's what makes everything else possible.
There would be no sense of "me" (meaning: you, the reader) reading words on this screen, right now, without superconsciousness.
Unagitated awareness is the screen upon which the rest of it (limited subject, separate object, perception) is displayed.
At least a few of us here live from superconsciousness, or from the even further integration which is beyond simply conscious experience of that state (superconsciouness; turiya --- both just fancy terms for the pure awareness underlying perceptions of partiality).
You can live from superconsciousness (aka the awareness you actually are, now), too.
quote:
and then you said "The Absolute is the formless, motionless Subject from which the rest of it (Causal, Astral, Physical) arises; it's very simple, really."
the absolute or supreme being, is just that, a being, krishna has a personality like you and me, he is the supreme personality.
This is the essence of the difference between non-duality and duality, philosophically.
You're citing a dualistic philosophy.
My experience fits with non-duality.
Both non-duality and duality can serve as either vehicles or blocks to the ultimate, in experience, if we hold them loosely and remember that they are maps.
Likewise, both sets of philosophies (duality and non-duality) can be barriers, if one holds onto concepts held in limited mind.
Just as the map is not the territory - the philosophy is not the reality.
Practice, notice, realize.
quote:
only the ignorant think the supreme lord has no form as krishna says and makes very clear in the bhagavad gita. and then reveals his form here:
"Arjuna saw the Universal Form of the Lord with many mouths and eyes, and many visions of marvel, with numerous divine ornaments, and holding divine weapons. (11.10)
Wearing divine garlands and apparel, anointed with celestial perfumes and ointments, full of all wonders, the limitless God with faces on all sides. (11.11)
If the splendor of thousands of suns were to blaze forth all at once in the sky, even that would not resemble the splendor of that exalted being. (11.12)
Arjuna saw the entire universe, divided in many ways, but standing as (all in) One (and One in all) in the body of Krishna, the God of gods. (11.13)
All scriptures have passages which can be interpreted on many levels.
I seem to recall the in the Gita, Krishna does mention being beyond all form, as well.
And, if you notice the last sutra you quoted above ... it can be viewed non-dually as easily as it can be viewed dually (the one in all, the all in one, is the unity of pure non-dual awareness).
Nothing is separate from anything; any concept which says this is the case is not useful to the experience of ultimate reality.
quote:
alwaysson
this is why it is impossible for the star to be of the causal or absolute plane, it is most certainly of astral/subtle nature. passing thru the star does not allow you to create universes which is the primary focus of the causal plane, so the star must be below that, in the astral
I might suggest experiencing more of the full range of consciousness-awareness-being before reaching emphatic conclusions.
Is it just possible that the details of the causal plane might be somewhat different than you currently think they are?
You certainly don't have to take my word for it, or Yogananda's, or anyone's ... or try to figure any of this out, with limited, cognitive mind.
Just keep practicing; you'll know for yourself.
"You will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."
I hope this is helpful.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
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Edited by - Kirtanman on Jan 31 2010 6:49:05 PM |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jan 31 2010 : 7:33:01 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by alwayson2
quote:
Originally posted by michaelangelo7
Once again I highly disagree with Kirtanman and the sources he referenced, the star/thigle/bindu does NOT take you to the absolute, but only to the astral heavens, which isn't a bad thing, everyone here is going there after this life, don't be ignorant and think you have made it to the absolute because you can penetrate astral light.
Why would EITHER of you think the star/thigle takes you anywhere?
My hunch is not based on this.
Although I am more inclined to agree with Kirtanman, because I disagree with Mike that the star is simply astral light. There is a difference between astral sight/clairvoyance and the star. See my "How to Perform Magick with Yoga" thread.
Hi All,
I am NOT saying the star takes anyone anywhere.
I am also NOT saying that the star/thigle and bindu are the same ..... I agree with (I think) pretty much everyone here that they are NOT the same.
I hope that clears things up, a bit.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
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alwayson2
USA
546 Posts |
Posted - Jan 31 2010 : 8:18:10 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
I am also NOT saying that the star/thigle and bindu are the same ..... I agree with (I think) pretty much everyone here that they are NOT the same.
Why isn't the star a bindu?
Thigle is just Tibetan for bindu. |
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adamantclearlight
USA
410 Posts |
Posted - Jan 31 2010 : 8:46:27 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by alwayson2
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
I am also NOT saying that the star/thigle and bindu are the same ..... I agree with (I think) pretty much everyone here that they are NOT the same.
Why isn't the star a bindu?
Thigle is just Tibetan for bindu.
You know Parahansa Yoganada describes the star as a five pointed star shape?
Adamant |
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alwayson2
USA
546 Posts |
Posted - Jan 31 2010 : 9:30:02 PM
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| so? |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jan 31 2010 : 10:24:31 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by adamantclearlight
Hi Kirtanman, I think Sariputta is describing seeing the process of becoming cease every moment. The Buddha is not warning against cessation; cessation is nibbana. But one is mindful of how feeling, name and form cease with the relinquishment of desire for becoming. One does not "give birth" to new being/name/form/feeling/desire, but instead sees how being presently ceases. Because with the cessation of feeling all else ceases with it, including name and form, and therefore, being has no meaning (words fail). Such is the precise conception of nibbana.
Adamant
Beautiful; agreed!
That's exactly what I meant, when I referenced "becoming-unbinding", as well.
Yes, as I've said before .... it's not so much about "gaining enlightenment", as it is about "no longer creating un-enlightenment" ... which it sounds like you/The Buddha are saying, as well.
I don't think any of us get quite how important "letting go ness" actually is (until we do; it's the difference between flowing/living and freezing/dreaming).
Ideas are static.
Living is real.
The Buddha knew it and taught it. Kashmir Shaivite masters knew it and taught it. Masters of all times and all ages know it and teach it.
It's the truth. The One that sets us free.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
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adamantclearlight
USA
410 Posts |
Posted - Jan 31 2010 : 10:28:53 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by alwayson2
so?
Exactly.
Adamant |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jan 31 2010 : 11:05:52 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by alwayson2
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
I am also NOT saying that the star/thigle and bindu are the same ..... I agree with (I think) pretty much everyone here that they are NOT the same.
Why isn't the star a bindu?
Thigle is just Tibetan for bindu.
"My bad" ...... I should have been clearer:
I was referring to the fact "the star is NOT the bindu I've been talking about in this thread."
There are a few definitions of "bindu" circulating, in this thread alone (including equating it with the third-eye star) .. not to mentioned around the Internet, and throughout various wisdom traditions.
Multiple meanings for single words is one of the reasons all this yogic stuff can be so confusing to people at times; it's actually all quite simple.
I'm perfectly fine with going with your definition (Alwayson), for this thread; the star is accepted as a bindu or the bindu by a lot of people ... and moving back to talking about the star/bindu you wanted to talk about in the first place, only makes sense, I'd think.
And yes, there are a lot of credible sources that say it's something else, but that's not the point ....... or, at least not the point you have a hunch may be important.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman |
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alwayson2
USA
546 Posts |
Posted - Jan 31 2010 : 11:53:01 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by adamantclearlight
quote:
Originally posted by alwayson2
so?
Exactly.
Adamant
I think I get this.
If so....LOL |
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I have a hunch that the star is important
