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adamantclearlight
USA
410 Posts |
 Posted - Jan 26 2010 : 10:56:30 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Christi
quote:
Originally posted by adamantclearlight
I totally understand now why Yogani leaves chakras out of his teachings. It's just another form of dogmatism, with one tradition saying the other missed a bindu or a chakra or got the color wrong. None of this has anything to do with legitimate practice. What is legitimate is that during meditation colorful stuff happens in one's field of vision. That stuff is a kind of information against which one has feedback about one's concentration. You are are about to walk into a hall of mirrors debating the christ consciousness yoga dharma connection.
Adamant
Hi Adamant,
Just to mention, Yogani doesn't leave chakras out of his teachings. Chakras are covered in a lot of detail, including the ajna chakra and the star.
It is covered here:
http://www.aypsite.org/92.html
Christi
This is not a lot of detail; it's bare bones. And that's better. BTW,
quote:
On seeing the star, it is a natural outcome of purifying the sushumna (spinal nerve) and opening the third eye. It was mentioned in the lesson on yoni mudra kumbhaka that the attention will sooner or later be drawn out beyond the point between the eyebrows.
...is basically the exact same description of this phenomena in Yeshe Lama.
This is enough, just drive the car, without staring under the hood all the time. It runs fine.
Adamant |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4430 Posts |
Posted - Jan 26 2010 : 11:10:52 AM
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Hi Adamant,
quote:
This is enough, just drive the car, without staring under the hood all the time. It runs fine.
That's a great realization to have. Good things are happening, as Yogani would say. 
Christi |
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adamantclearlight
USA
410 Posts |
Posted - Jan 26 2010 : 2:37:56 PM
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Thanks Christi, You're probably aware about how tedious focus on channels, bindus and chakras can be. There are practices to visualize all the channels (each with distinct colors), each of the chakras (each with a distinct color) and then to visualize beej mantras on each of the petals of the lotuses at each chakra, then moon disks on each chakra, with a beej mantra on top of that, surrounded by a separate deity, etc., etc. This is true for hindu and buddhist tantra. This is what I meant by Yogani not dealing with chakras and channels in great detail. We visualize only the central channel; the mudras and bandhas do the rest of the work. This is enough, when a bindu and lights arises, we recognize it as evidence of what we are working on, nothing more than that.
Adamant |
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gumpi
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
Posted - Jan 26 2010 : 3:08:00 PM
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Might it be that the particular kind of third eye image people see is influenced by the lineage or guru that initiated them? If so, this could help explain the differences.
I think it is probably a big mistake to mix the means (practice) with the end (or spiritual experiences). That is, simply doing pranayama exercises do not seem to have anything to do with the spiritual experiences of energy in the body that people at this site often talk about. It involves something else, call it God or whatever. I firmly believe this. If you think about the fact that people can either be born with spiritual experiences or suddenly get them come to them at some point later in life without seemingly seeking them in any way, it puts practice into a different arena. It's not that practices do not matter but somehow i have a suspicion they are secondary.
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adamantclearlight
USA
410 Posts |
Posted - Jan 26 2010 : 4:14:18 PM
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Gumpi, My view is that people who advance spiritually at an early age is due to past life progress. But it was practice that caused the progress. Cause and effect are illimitable laws of nature. Re bindu: different people see it differently; lineages tend to share jargon and the descriptions by lineage founders tend to get adopted downstream. But it's all the same phenomena from different perspectives. The colors are the elements. So different cultures have different constitutions too, due to diet, for example, and that can account for the different color schemes described. The dominance of one element or another is an ayurveda thing. Blue, white and red are universally described. Keep that in mind.
Adamant |
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alwayson2
USA
546 Posts |
Posted - Jan 26 2010 : 4:36:05 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by adamantclearlight
Thanks Christi, You're probably aware about how tedious focus on channels, bindus and chakras can be. There are practices to visualize all the channels (each with distinct colors), each of the chakras (each with a distinct color) and then to visualize beej mantras on each of the petals of the lotuses at each chakra, then moon disks on each chakra, with a beej mantra on top of that, surrounded by a separate deity, etc., etc. This is true for hindu and buddhist tantra. This is what I meant by Yogani not dealing with chakras and channels in great detail. We visualize only the central channel; the mudras and bandhas do the rest of the work. This is enough, when a bindu and lights arises, we recognize it as evidence of what we are working on, nothing more than that.
Adamant
The is a difference between visualizing the chakras and clairvoyantly seeing the chakras. Once clairvoyant power is developed you will automatically see all the petals, deities, even if you have never heard of it before. I think T.I. can clairvoyantly see the chakras.
Neither visualization and clairvoyance are required for working with the chakras. |
Edited by - alwayson2 on Jan 26 2010 4:52:29 PM |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4430 Posts |
Posted - Jan 26 2010 : 5:02:27 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by adamantclearlight
Thanks Christi, You're probably aware about how tedious focus on channels, bindus and chakras can be. There are practices to visualize all the channels (each with distinct colors), each of the chakras (each with a distinct color) and then to visualize beej mantras on each of the petals of the lotuses at each chakra, then moon disks on each chakra, with a beej mantra on top of that, surrounded by a separate deity, etc., etc. This is true for hindu and buddhist tantra. This is what I meant by Yogani not dealing with chakras and channels in great detail. We visualize only the central channel; the mudras and bandhas do the rest of the work. This is enough, when a bindu and lights arises, we recognize it as evidence of what we are working on, nothing more than that.
Adamant
Hi Adamant,
Yes, compared to those systems AYP is light on chakras and nadis. Personally I didn't start the vajrayana completion stage practices until after I was experiencing whole body ecstasy, at which point they are anything but tedious. Each practice is like a ray of light decending from heaven. Even with the vajrayana practices, I keep it very light on nadis and chakras.
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Clear White Light
USA
229 Posts |
Posted - Jan 26 2010 : 5:35:05 PM
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| There seems to be a lot of advanced vajrayana knowledge in this thread. This is an area which I have not yet investigated into nearly as deeply as I would like. It seems somewhat impenetrable at times. Can anyone recommend some good books in the vajrayana vein? |
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adamantclearlight
USA
410 Posts |
Posted - Jan 26 2010 : 5:42:47 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Christi
quote:
Originally posted by adamantclearlight
Thanks Christi, You're probably aware about how tedious focus on channels, bindus and chakras can be. There are practices to visualize all the channels (each with distinct colors), each of the chakras (each with a distinct color) and then to visualize beej mantras on each of the petals of the lotuses at each chakra, then moon disks on each chakra, with a beej mantra on top of that, surrounded by a separate deity, etc., etc. This is true for hindu and buddhist tantra. This is what I meant by Yogani not dealing with chakras and channels in great detail. We visualize only the central channel; the mudras and bandhas do the rest of the work. This is enough, when a bindu and lights arises, we recognize it as evidence of what we are working on, nothing more than that.
Adamant
Hi Adamant,
Yes, compared to those systems AYP is light on chakras and nadis. Personally I didn't start the vajrayana completion stage practices until after I was experiencing whole body ecstasy, at which point they are anything but tedious. Each practice is like a ray of light decending from heaven. Even with the vajrayana practices, I keep it very light on nadis and chakras.
Not all vajrayana completion stage methods are that detailed. But I agree they are ecstatic (but also take a long time). And not all practices of anuyoga and atiyoga are two-stage. For example, Togal there's no visualization, but you will spontaneously see them as Alwayson mentions. Yogani's integrated and balanced approach corresponds to teachings from "high" yogis, like Jigten Sumgon and Jigmed Lingpa. Their systems have a very "get to the point" feature in common with Yogani, which is something I value very much. That point is rapid purification and enlightenment. So meditation phenomena are kept in perspective of their use.
In my practice, visualizations will almost never involve more than one chakra and mantra. For example, in guru yoga, there are two deities visualized, but no mantra. In Vajrasattva, there is one deity and one beej (HUNG) surrounded by 100 syllable mantra circling clockwise over the crown. In Vajrayogini, there is one deity and one beej (HRI) surrounded by her 20+ syllable mantra circling counterclockwise at the heart. What I'm getting at, is a little visualization goes a long way.
Whereas, in the Dzogchen lineage, the Vajrasattva is visualized one in the brow, one in throat and one at heart, each with respective colors of white, red and blue bindus. And each visualization has the hung and 100 syllable mantra circling. Additionally, one visualizes syllables at each chakra, and at the soles of the feet with different colors.
I experimented with both methods of Vajrasattva, and I found the simpler practice to be more powerful in terms of the rise of bliss. I have a close connection to the Drikung lineage, so that could account for the more powerful results. There is interdependence, less degrees of separation from the living masters. The Nyingmapa teachers are not in close proximity, either I can't see them or only see them once ever few months.
So then the fact that I've never met Yogani, but his method is very powerful, gives me confidence that the more refined, simpler and subtler practice is superior.
Adamant |
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gumpi
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
Posted - Jan 26 2010 : 5:43:43 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by alwayson2
quote:
Originally posted by adamantclearlight
Thanks Christi, You're probably aware about how tedious focus on channels, bindus and chakras can be. There are practices to visualize all the channels (each with distinct colors), each of the chakras (each with a distinct color) and then to visualize beej mantras on each of the petals of the lotuses at each chakra, then moon disks on each chakra, with a beej mantra on top of that, surrounded by a separate deity, etc., etc. This is true for hindu and buddhist tantra. This is what I meant by Yogani not dealing with chakras and channels in great detail. We visualize only the central channel; the mudras and bandhas do the rest of the work. This is enough, when a bindu and lights arises, we recognize it as evidence of what we are working on, nothing more than that.
Adamant
The is a difference between visualizing the chakras and clairvoyantly seeing the chakras. Once clairvoyant power is developed you will automatically see all the petals, deities, even if you have never heard of it before. I think T.I. can clairvoyantly see the chakras.
Neither visualization and clairvoyance are required for working with the chakras.
I think almost everything you say is just speculation and not based on any personal experience, which you yourself seem to admit. Nevertheless, that isn't a bad thing. You aren't to blame if all this stuff is speculation. |
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adamantclearlight
USA
410 Posts |
Posted - Jan 26 2010 : 5:49:05 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Clear White Light
There seems to be a lot of advanced vajrayana knowledge in this thread. This is an area which I have not yet investigated into nearly as deeply as I would like. It seems somewhat impenetrable at times. Can anyone recommend some good books in the vajrayana vein?
This is a hard one. "The Golden Letters," "Aspiration Prayer of Mahamudra," "Deity Yoga."
Adamant |
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alwayson2
USA
546 Posts |
Posted - Jan 26 2010 : 6:13:53 PM
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Adamant,
if you visualize, can actually literally SEE the visualization?
If yes, you are clairvoyant. |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4430 Posts |
Posted - Jan 26 2010 : 6:40:22 PM
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Hi Adamamnt,
quote:
So then the fact that I've never met Yogani, but his method is very powerful, gives me confidence that the more refined, simpler and subtler practice is superior.
Yes, this is my experience as well. Keep it simple.  |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jan 26 2010 : 8:37:38 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by adamantclearlight
Thanks Christi, You're probably aware about how tedious focus on channels, bindus and chakras can be. There are practices to visualize all the channels (each with distinct colors), each of the chakras (each with a distinct color) and then to visualize beej mantras on each of the petals of the lotuses at each chakra, then moon disks on each chakra, with a beej mantra on top of that, surrounded by a separate deity, etc., etc. This is true for hindu and buddhist tantra. This is what I meant by Yogani not dealing with chakras and channels in great detail. We visualize only the central channel; the mudras and bandhas do the rest of the work. This is enough, when a bindu and lights arises, we recognize it as evidence of what we are working on, nothing more than that.
Adamant
Hi Adamant & All,
Yes; that's why I agreed enthusiastically, with you, Adamant.
Basically, all that hyper-focus (concentration on the various sets of symbolism, you mention above) *may* be a useful way to help train the mind ... but it can also be overkill ...... and it can also run the risk of causing people to think those symbols are important in and of themselves (which is the point you seem to be making as well).
To all:
That's all clouds chasing rainbows .... which is great if it leads a cloud to realize that it's part of the sky, and ever immersed in the sky.
If clouds keep chasing rainbows ... they could miss the sky they're immersed in, entirely; y'know?
But wait ... aren't clouds and rainbows both ephemereal and ever-changing?
Why yes; yes they are.
"Hm."
What's aware of the "you" that's aware of the star?
What are you really made of?
What's the star really made of?
Everything is determined by the scope of the perceiving subject.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jan 26 2010 : 8:46:58 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Christi
Hi Kirtanman,
quote:
Quote:
"Interconnected with Vishuddhi chakra is Bindu Visarga. Very little is known and written about it as it is beyond the realm of all conventional experience. On the Jacob's Ladder it would relate to the Yesod of Beriah, which underlies the Daat of Yezirah. "Bindu is a trap-door opening in both directions." It is said to be the origin of manifest individuality. "From this point or seed an object, an animal, a human being or whatever, can arise and manifest. Each and every object has a Bindu as its base. That which was previously formless assumes shape through the Bindu, and its nature is fixed by the Bindu as well."
quote:
TI wrote:
Is this a valid source for interpretation of the Kabbalah? Can you elaborate on that? It makes me think of shape-shifting..
quote:
Kirtanman wrote:
I've never heard of that resource/person, and while they have some of the buzzwords right, they seem to have much of the rest of it wrong (which I'd say of anyone who connects the bindu with vishuddhi {throat chakra} .. and which, by the way, Kabbalah does not do, either.)
I have occasionally heard of a connection mentioned in yoga between the bindu chakra (top back of head) and the vishuddhi chakra. The relationship is connected with the transformation of amrita which is produced in the bindu chakra and transformed in the vishuddhi chakra before descending lower down in the body. When the process is not working properly because of obstructions in the nadis or chakras, then, it is said, the process results in a contracted state of consciousness (the creation of persons), but when it is functioning in it's pure state it results in divine consciousness. This would make sense with the references to Beriah and Yezirah from tha Kabbalah.
So the reference may be in connection to that aspect of spiritual transformation.
Hi Christi,
That's why I said "offhand" .... I didn't research in detail, but as you know, I've studied a lot of spiritual literature, including Kabbalah and the yogic/tantric traditions .... and just haven't come across that particular teaching before (though obviously, you have; and so, cool .. I just hadn't heard that particular "spin" ... pun fully intended ... before.)
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jan 26 2010 : 9:04:44 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Tibetan_Ice
Hi Kirtanman :)
Thank you for your response.
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
If you (anyone reading this) take the bit of time to read it (it's 15 pages; easy reading {not overly "academic") .... it should help clarify exactly what the symbolism of the bindu is all about.
I hope this is helpful.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
That was an interesting read. Interesting to see Ken Wilber's name in there too.
There is another source of information, but likely it is the same interpretation as Muktananda as it comes from the same lineage. It is Mark Griffin. He speaks of the bindu as the little super fast dot that paints all of creation, the little blue pearl..
Here is the link (sorry, I had to buy the mp3..)
http://www.hardlight.org/store/bind...6f651797f75e
:)
TI
Hi TI,
Glad it was helpful.
And yeah, Mark Griffin seems like an interesting guy/guru .... I wasn't familiar with him, before very recently, myself.
I'll post a link to his site in "web sites", here at the forum.
It's very likely, though, that I may not comment on how enlightened Mark Griffin may or may not be.
I hope no one is disappointed.
And, yeah, I've never quite gotten the "blue dot drawing everything" thing; Nisargadatta says something similar (different lineage, same symbolism).
Basically, I think it's a piece of symbolism saying that awareness creates perception of everything, which is true.
The whole point of the bindu (pun fully intended) ... is that awareness is on one side of the bindu, and all objectivity, all form, on the other (hence the "two-way trap door" terminology).
When awareness expands beyond the body-mind (not just body; body-mind ... meaning: when awareness expands past all form ... including thoughts, feelings, sense of self) ... one is essentially on the "other" side of the bindu from objectivity.
As Nisargadatta says, from that vantage point, we perceive the same things ... just not in the same way.
Instead of form perceiving form, we're space perceiving form.
Everything is "drawn" via awareness compressing down to the infinitesimal point of the bindu, and expanding out into objectivity, and then returning to that same point, and expanding as self.
Eventually, it balances out, where it really doesn't matter if the sense is of an object, or of the self ... it's all kinda the same; form is emptiness, emptiness is form.
Even regular perception is kind of like this: focus on object, then notice the self noticing the object.
Prior to passing through the bindu, it is very much a hall of mirrors kind of thing ... reflections reflecting off reflecting reflections. Reflecting.
Awareness is changeless.
Form changes (including all forms in consciousness.)
(All just my take on the symbolism of the bindu, in case it might be helpful.)
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
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Edited by - Kirtanman on Jan 26 2010 9:09:32 PM |
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Tibetan_Ice
Canada
758 Posts |
Posted - Jan 26 2010 : 10:47:38 PM
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Hi Kirtanman, :)
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
When awareness expands beyond the body-mind (not just body; body-mind ... meaning: when awareness expands past all form ... including thoughts, feelings, sense of self) ... one is essentially on the "other" side of the bindu from objectivity.
There is something that is not quite right with this statement. It doesn't feel right to me. An expansion into and past all form is on one side of the bindu, isn't it? It's on the side of creation. On the other side is the unspeakable. That's what I intuit, not from practical experience, as the only thing I've ever seen that is a vast nothingness is the void and the void can't be on the other side.. can it?
:)
TI |
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adamantclearlight
USA
410 Posts |
Posted - Jan 26 2010 : 11:06:00 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by alwayson2
Adamant,
if you visualize, can actually literally SEE the visualization?
If yes, you are clairvoyant.
Yes. I see the visualization very clearly. But it's just an image. You know, the image is an interdependent phenomena, something like a mantra, but with lines, dimensions, motion (circling mantra) and color.
Adamant |
Edited by - adamantclearlight on Jan 26 2010 11:20:42 PM |
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adamantclearlight
USA
410 Posts |
Posted - Jan 27 2010 : 4:00:57 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Clear White Light
There seems to be a lot of advanced vajrayana knowledge in this thread. This is an area which I have not yet investigated into nearly as deeply as I would like. It seems somewhat impenetrable at times. Can anyone recommend some good books in the vajrayana vein?
Okay, Found a great starter: "The Bliss of Inner Fire," by Lama Yeshe. Gives an excellent overview of the tantra path.
Adamant |
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Clear White Light
USA
229 Posts |
Posted - Jan 27 2010 : 4:16:04 PM
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| Thanks Adamant. I will add that to my list. :) |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jan 27 2010 : 8:58:09 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Tibetan_Ice
Hi Kirtanman, :)
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
When awareness expands beyond the body-mind (not just body; body-mind ... meaning: when awareness expands past all form ... including thoughts, feelings, sense of self) ... one is essentially on the "other" side of the bindu from objectivity.
There is something that is not quite right with this statement. It doesn't feel right to me. An expansion into and past all form is on one side of the bindu, isn't it? It's on the side of creation. On the other side is the unspeakable. That's what I intuit, not from practical experience, as the only thing I've ever seen that is a vast nothingness is the void and the void can't be on the other side.. can it?
:)
TI
Hi TI,
The bindu is the exact balance-point between emptiness and form.
Different models/maps put this point in slightly different "places" ... but that's the point they're making.
I was referring to how it *seems* when the bindu is transcended in yogic sadhana ..... not how awareness actually operates.
Awareness actually *starts* on the "other side" of the bindu from objectivity, and awareness moves .... and subject and object divide, and grow progressively more distinct ... until subject and object dissolve and grow progressively less distinct, and dissolve back into original awareness, and awareness moves ... and subject and object divide ...."
And so on, and so forth, worlds without end.
However, as individual selves; we're object-perceptions *thinking* we're subjects; we live entire lifetimes with a much-less-than-50% experience of actuality ... until practices facilitate the experiencing of the wholeness, when then "thaws" out the objectivity-only view of the individual self; unenlightenment is no longer created, the dream of suffering and limitation dissolves, and it's all (quite literally) good. Perfectly so.
I thought the bindu article on Swami Jnaneshvara's site described the bindu symbolism and dynamics very, very well (quite possibly better and more clearly than I'm doing ) ; that's why I posted it; here it is again; I highly recommend it:
http://www.swamij.com/bindu.htm
And here's an excerpt (yes, it's a repeat; I feel it's very important, and so, am posting it again; if you {anyone reading} really get this, and practice accordingly .... you get enlightenment; "worth reading", I'd say. )
"It is common for people to say that Meditation is an ongoing process, which has no final goal, as one encounters experience after experience.
However, this is true only for those who choose to remain in the relatively shallow waters of the Gross and Subtle planes, where there are countless combinations and permutations of objects and events, perceptions and conceptions.
There are very few who seek to go beyond all of this activity in the Gross and Subtle, to the Causal and Absolute from which all of this emerges and into which it returns. For the few who do, Truth or Reality is found. It is to be found on the other side of the Bindu, through an experience known as Piercing the Bindu (Bindu vedhana).
All of the other practices lead one in the direction of this. It happens at the end of the mind, through what one may call God, grace, guru, shakti, or luck, depending on one's perspective.
It is the job of the aspirant to do all of the preparation practices, while being ever mindful of the convergence point toward which he or she is headed. To understand this is to have a higher understanding of the principle and practice known as surrender. "
When I wrote "when awareness expands beyond the body-mind" (again, from the "objectivity side"), I was referring to the same exact dynamic as where Swami Jnaneshvara says:
"There are very few who seek to go beyond all of this activity in the Gross and Subtle, to the Causal and Absolute from which all of this emerges and into which it returns. For the few who do, Truth or Reality is found. It is to be found on the other side of the Bindu, through an experience known as Piercing the Bindu (Bindu vedhana). "
I hope that helps clear things up.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
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Edited by - Kirtanman on Jan 27 2010 9:56:51 PM |
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michaelangelo7
USA
89 Posts |
Posted - Jan 28 2010 : 2:58:04 PM
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| i do not agree with kirtanman or swami jnaneshvar. the bindu or light point is astral or subtle light, piercing or penetrating it will result in the loss of body consciousness and all that remains is the light. passing thru the bindu only takes you to the astral/subtle plane, it does not take you to the absolute nor even the causal plane. |
Edited by - michaelangelo7 on Jan 28 2010 3:03:24 PM |
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alwayson2
USA
546 Posts |
Posted - Jan 28 2010 : 3:46:50 PM
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wow this thread got out of my hand lol
Anyway, to reiterate, I have a hunch the thigle will dissolve the physical body into the light body. |
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adamantclearlight
USA
410 Posts |
Posted - Jan 28 2010 : 4:31:55 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by alwayson2
wow this thread got out of my hand lol
Anyway, to reiterate, I have a hunch the thigle will dissolve the physical body into the light body.
Good hunch, b/c this is what Togal is about.
Adamant |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jan 28 2010 : 7:33:51 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by alwayson2
wow this thread got out of my hand lol
Anyway, to reiterate, I have a hunch the thigle will dissolve the physical body into the light body.
Apologies, Alwayson!
Though you know by now: that's how threads go around here .... and you've helped a few of them "veer" at times, too; not a bad thing .... it all goes how it all goes.
Still ... it wasn't/isn't my intention to derail your thread, at all.
"Carry on."
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
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I have a hunch that the star is important
