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 Other Systems and Alternate Approaches
 Gumpi's Views On Scenery
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gumpi

United Kingdom
546 Posts

Posted - Jan 17 2010 :  6:09:11 PM  Show Profile  Visit gumpi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Message
My chiming in here is simply to say that i do not agree with the AYP approach to scenery.

Kriya yoga, which is spinal breathing, and not the other way around, is very clear on the goals of practice. That is, there is definite scenery that people encounter universally, and these mileposts designate enlightenment experiences, and that all this is documented and layed out. So the idea that the "scenery" is like an obstacle is blatantly incorrect.

I won't be surprised if my post doesn't appear, but if it does, i want to try to explain why i don't agree with the scenery argument and nothing else. It is obvious that when people meditate by habit and they go through bad and good experiences, that concentrating on the practice or meditation is essential, but this can be done in loads of different ways, it just depends on the awareness or quality of attention involved in meditating. Having said that, people with mental sensitivities should not be meditating because their physical and physiological makeup is not sufficiently prepared for it.

Can there be a post on the AYP forums discussing scenery or is that off limits? If so, i believe you should make room for it at least.

Kirtanman

USA
1651 Posts

Posted - Jan 17 2010 :  9:43:33 PM  Show Profile  Visit Kirtanman's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Gumpi,

I'm not sure I'm quite clear on your objection to the AYP teachings regarding scenery.

AYP doesn't teach that scenery is an obstacle.

Rather, AYP teaches that the wide and varied experiences which may be encountered as a result of meditation and other AYP practices ... visions, ecstatic energy experiences, and so on ..... should be treated as scenery, so that they don't become obstacles.

By treating any experiences as scenery ... we keep progressing. Awakening, and ultimately enlightenment, continue to unfold.

We are then able to realize the full benefits of yogic practices ... experientially knowing the full freedom of our own true nature.

Alternately, if visions, or energetic experiences, etc. ... are given undue attention ... they can potentially become stumbling blocks or obstacles, because it is only the limited ego-mind that would give such events undue importance. The vision, or whatever, becomes and object of focus, with the limited ego-mind focusing on it, and making a big deal out of it.

And so, AYP isn't saying that scenery is an obstacle. Most of us who practice AYP consistently, over time, experience a fairly wide variety of "scenery". We have experiences, on various levels, that we never imagined to be possible, once we get our limited minds out of yogic practices and just do the practices, daily.

Then, practices become like exercise ... the aggregate benefits are realized fairly quickly.

Giving undue attention to scenery in meditation would be like exercising, and saying: "Oh, wow, I'm sweating? I wonder if other exercisers sweat? I wonder what sweat means?"

Or, "My shoe got untied! I must have shoe karma!"

.... and so on.

It's best to just do the practices, twice-daily, like clockwork, and have a little patience.

Approaching it that way, "all will be revealed", literally.

Paying undue attention to scenery would be like second-guessing the value of meditation or other practices, themselves; it would make a stumbling block out of something that isn't a stumbling block.

I hope this helps.

Wholeheartedly,

Kirtanman


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Etherfish

USA
3615 Posts

Posted - Jan 17 2010 :  10:46:39 PM  Show Profile  Visit Etherfish's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Good post Kirtanman; you covered it.
I don't agree Gumpi that scenery is universal and indicates enlightenment mileposts.
I have read a lot about different people's scenery here, and what I have experienced very rarely coincides with anyone else's. And I don't see any patterns emerging either that would show a universality.
If you see them, maybe you can write a map here.
But i do see people experiencing milestones in a different order than other people.
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gumpi

United Kingdom
546 Posts

Posted - Jan 20 2010 :  2:25:15 PM  Show Profile  Visit gumpi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Firstly, i think that saying scenery is second place to practice is some kind of oxymoron. Why are you practising in the first place? Do you have a goal or not? If you have no goal i don't understand why you are practising. Attachment to results is different to having a goal. And i will submit here that there IS a "scenery" experience that is universal and takes you to that goal: the spiritual eye.

I agree that people have all kinds of different experiences along the way that some people may or may not encounter. But this is directly unrelated to the spiritual eye.

If people do not understand what the spiritual eye is or how it is important in yoga practice i would suggest that they read Paramahansa Yogananda's writings in depth.

On a linked note, not to long ago i wrote a post here asking "what is the purpose of spinal breathing?". I didn't get much response to that. People are coming to AYP, seeing all these practices and using them without understanding why they are doing it, or rather, whether these practices deliver consistent and scientific results. Nobody here questions the scientific basis for spinal breathing. How does it work? What exactly does it do? How does it relate to the physical body and how that works?

In Kriya yoga, which spinal breathing derives from, the practice of moving cool and warm currents up and down the spine is said to be directly related to the amount of evolution a human can increase their spiritual attainments to, together with samadhi. So 2000 repititions of moving the currents will produce so many samadhis. Whether you agree with this interpretation or not, it is not in line with the teachings of kriya yoga. If it wasn't important at all i fail to see the significance of its existence.

What i want to know, what i want an answer to, is how yogis achieve the breathless state of samadhi. So far, nobody at this website or anywhere else has ever explained how this is accomplished. If it really exists there should be a procedure or mechanism that makes it possible and explainable. Simply saying that samadhi is achievable through I AM meditation, which is exactly the same practice as Transcendental Meditation, has no scientific explanation or displays no criteria by which to judge if it is samadhi or not. On the other hand, a breathless state DOES provide evidence of a state of samadhi directly. According to the literature, we know a person is in samadhi when the breath is stopped effortlessly without strain because the physical senses are shut off completely, which is pratyahara, due to the energies of the heart and internal organs being redirected back into the spine and brain. It is also the state of samadhi because once the 5 senses are switched off the mind is stilled automatically.

Now, I AM mantra meditation is a process where you concentrate on the mantra until it becomes refined to a "fuzzy" level and when you notice you are off into other thoughts you bring your attention back again and again. This is NOT a thought-free state, hence it is not samadhi. It isn't even concentration, since the mind is dissipated into other thoughts and not centred on only one thought at a time. To my recollection, nobody on this website has said that the mantra drops away completely along with all the other thoughts and they rest in thought-free samadhi. Instead, the procedure of practice is emphasised over anything like that, so that the person continuously engages their minds in the repitition of the mantra. Furthermore, if such a state of thought-free awareness does arise, it is likely to be a product of hypnotic suggestion. And since I AM is the exact same procedure as TM, we have a lot of information at our fingertips to find by a web search that can reveal the pitfalls of this approach. Many studies have been done on it, and the conclusion is as follows: TM is NON-DIFFERENT to rest; the mantra itself has no potent effect in and of itself, any phrase will do the same. Obviously, if you are using a phrase you resonate with, your subjective experience will be different to some extent depending on how you relate to it - but the physiological conditions produced by the practice as a whole have no significant differences than those that are produced by resting completely.

So how are you proving you are in samadhi by this mantra meditation practice? At least kriya yoga does have a sign by which people can ascertain the state of samadhi.

Back to the spiritual eye. I have no opinion one way or the other about whether it really exists or not (though there are plenty of people on this website who have said that it does exist). But assuming it does exist the conclusion is inevitable: you need to penetrate it to enter samadhi. Further, assuming that samadhi is the goal, the spiritual eye is the ONLY MEANS of achieving that goal. What other ways do you know of to attain samadhi that doesn't involve the spiritual eye? Can you tell me please? Because i have never heard of anything else before.

So back to the original topic. If the spiritual eye is "scenery" and scenery is less important or less significant or less anything than practice, what is your goal? Tell me what your goal is and i will see if i can answer you.
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CarsonZi

Canada
3189 Posts

Posted - Jan 20 2010 :  3:12:59 PM  Show Profile  Visit CarsonZi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Gumpi

quote:
Originally posted by gumpi

Firstly, i think that saying scenery is second place to practice is some kind of oxymoron.


No offence, but thoughts aren't reality. They are just thoughts. No point in believing them....especially if they are causing you suffering, which seems like the case here. Just my perspective though.

quote:
Originally posted by gumpi

Why are you practising in the first place?


Personally I practice because it enhances my life in innumerable ways.

quote:
Originally posted by gumpi

Do you have a goal or not?


Nope...no goal. Having a goal indicates that there is somewhere to get to other then right here. There's nowhere to go, nothing to be other then This right here right now.

quote:
Originally posted by gumpi

If you have no goal i don't understand why you are practising.


You don't need to understand. It isn't possible to understand things like this with the mind. You can only Know with your Heart.

quote:
Originally posted by gumpi

Attachment to results is different to having a goal.


Indeed. Having no attachment, and no goal is the best way to see results....IME anyways. Just be as you are and do as you do.

quote:
Originally posted by gumpi

And i will submit here that there IS a "scenery" experience that is universal and takes you to that goal: the spiritual eye.


Sounds like attachment to a goal to me.

quote:
Originally posted by gumpi

I agree that people have all kinds of different experiences along the way that some people may or may not encounter.


Glad we can agree on this

quote:
Originally posted by gumpi

If people do not understand what the spiritual eye is or how it is important in yoga practice i would suggest that they read Paramahansa Yogananda's writings in depth.


I know what it is and have read tons of Paramahansa's writings. IMO language and definitions are (for the most part) an obstacle. We could have the exact same experience and we would still reiterate that completely differently....doesn't mean a thing. Each journey is completely individual.

quote:
Originally posted by gumpi

On a linked note, not to long ago i wrote a post here asking "what is the purpose of spinal breathing?". I didn't get much response to that.


The purpose of SBP (for me) is purification of the nervous system. Simple, and it works.

quote:
Originally posted by gumpi

People are coming to AYP, seeing all these practices and using them without understanding why they are doing it, or rather, whether these practices deliver consistent and scientific results.


You speak for the "people?".....I don't see how you could possibly think you know what others' understanding or experience of AYP is. All folks can do is write about their understanding and experience, and words are very misleading and often spiritual truth is impossible to put to words. The only way to KNOW whether the "practices deliver consistent and scientific results" would be to practice them consistantly yourself....that's the only way you could ever know. And what works for one will not always work for another, so just because you SAY they don't work, doesn't mean they don't. They do work....especially for me!

quote:
Originally posted by gumpi

Nobody here questions the scientific basis for spinal breathing.


Well, YOU certainly do....that's at least somebody!

quote:
Originally posted by gumpi

How does it work? What exactly does it do? How does it relate to the physical body and how that works?


Doesn't matter. The fact is, it does. At least for some people.

quote:
Originally posted by gumpi

In Kriya yoga, which spinal breathing derives from,


......in your opinion.

quote:
Originally posted by gumpi

the practice of moving cool and warm currents up and down the spine is said to be directly related to the amount of evolution a human can increase their spiritual attainments to, together with samadhi. So 2000 repititions of moving the currents will produce so many samadhis.


How many repititions have YOU done? How many samadhis were reached? Are you talking from experience here or just speaking someone else's truth? Just curious.

quote:
Originally posted by gumpi

Whether you agree with this interpretation or not, it is not in line with the teachings of kriya yoga.


Whether you say AYP works or not, it doesn't change others' experience with it. Same deal.

quote:
Originally posted by gumpi

If it wasn't important at all i fail to see the significance of its existence.


What is important is abiding happiness no matter the external circumstances. Are you happy in your life Gumpi?

quote:
Originally posted by gumpi

What i want to know, what i want an answer to, is how yogis achieve the breathless state of samadhi.


Advanced yoga practices.

quote:
Originally posted by gumpi

So far, nobody at this website or anywhere else has ever explained how this is accomplished.


That's because it isn't accomplished....it just happens.

quote:
Originally posted by gumpi

If it really exists there should be a procedure or mechanism that makes it possible and explainable.


"Should"??? Fighting with reality here.

quote:
Originally posted by gumpi

Simply saying that samadhi is achievable through I AM meditation, which is exactly the same practice as Transcendental Meditation, has no scientific explanation or displays no criteria by which to judge if it is samadhi or not.


What difference does it make whether you can tell if someone else is in samadhi? What difference does it make what practice brought another to samadhi. What matters is what works for YOU! Judgments need to be dropped dude. And samadhi isn't the end-all-be-all....lots of people reach samadhi and still continue to suffer during their daily lives. Yoga is about the cessation of suffering not about "achieving" samadhi.

quote:
Originally posted by gumpi

On the other hand, a breathless state DOES provide evidence of a state of samadhi directly.


Not that this would make any difference to you, unless you are the one in samadhi. What good does it do YOU knowing someone else is in samadhi?

quote:
Originally posted by gumpi

According to the literature, we know a person is in samadhi when the breath is stopped effortlessly without strain because the physical senses are shut off completely, which is pratyahara, due to the energies of the heart and internal organs being redirected back into the spine and brain.


Sure? So........????

quote:
Originally posted by gumpi

It is also the state of samadhi because once the 5 senses are switched off the mind is stilled automatically.


Indeed....but again....so?

quote:
Originally posted by gumpi

Now, I AM mantra meditation is a process where you concentrate on the mantra until it becomes refined to a "fuzzy" level and when you notice you are off into other thoughts you bring your attention back again and again.


Correct.

quote:
Originally posted by gumpi

This is NOT a thought-free state, hence it is not samadhi.


Again, correct IMO. It is not a thought-free state until it is.

quote:
Originally posted by gumpi

It isn't even concentration, since the mind is dissipated into other thoughts and not centred on only one thought at a time.


The purpose of Deep Meditation is to increase the amount of inner silence one experiences OUTSIDE of meditation and out in daily life. Again, at least IMO.

quote:
Originally posted by gumpi

To my recollection, nobody on this website has said that the mantra drops away completely along with all the other thoughts and they rest in thought-free samadhi.


Whether it has been stated or not, it happens. It has happened to me many times. There, it has been stated....for the record

quote:
Originally posted by gumpi

Instead, the procedure of practice is emphasised over anything like that, so that the person continuously engages their minds in the repitition of the mantra.


Yes. Until the mantra drops away and we find ourselves back in thought. Then we continue to engage the mind with the mantra. And again, my understanding of the reasoning behind this is because samadhi is not the purpose here....abiding inner silence 24/7, in and out of meditation is the purpose.

quote:
Originally posted by gumpi

Furthermore, if such a state of thought-free awareness does arise, it is likely to be a product of hypnotic suggestion.


Again with the hypnosis....you seem pretty attached to this particular perspective Gumpi.....it seems to come up in just about every one of your posts.

quote:
Originally posted by gumpi

And since I AM is the exact same procedure as TM,


It isn't....but whatever you believe. Sorry, continue....

quote:
Originally posted by gumpi

we have a lot of information at our fingertips to find by a web search that can reveal the pitfalls of this approach.


Perhaps on the TM procedures, which are in fact different from AYP Deep Meditation. But again, you will believe what you will believe....who am I to tell you otherwise....

quote:
Originally posted by gumpi

Many studies have been done on it, and the conclusion is as follows: TM is NON-DIFFERENT to rest; the mantra itself has no potent effect in and of itself, any phrase will do the same.


TM doesn't use "i am" as a mantra. One difference between the two systems.

quote:
Originally posted by gumpi

Obviously, if you are using a phrase you resonate with, your subjective experience will be different to some extent depending on how you relate to it - but the physiological conditions produced by the practice as a whole have no significant differences than those that are produced by resting completely.


Well, that may be your experience or it may be your belief....but that is certainly not Truth for me in particular. AYP DM has produced some physiological conditions here that are MUCH different then regular rest. You remember I was addicted to methadone right? Sleep never got me clean in 10 weeks without any withdrawals....that was AYPractices.

quote:
Originally posted by gumpi

So how are you proving you are in samadhi by this mantra meditation practice?


No proving here. Feel no need to prove anything....to you or anyone else. The proof is in the pudding as they say.

quote:
Originally posted by gumpi

At least kriya yoga does have a sign by which people can ascertain the state of samadhi.


Perhaps you should be practicing Kriya then?

quote:
Originally posted by gumpi

Back to the spiritual eye.


Sure.

quote:
Originally posted by gumpi

I have no opinion one way or the other about whether it really exists or not (though there are plenty of people on this website who have said that it does exist). But assuming it does exist the conclusion is inevitable: you need to penetrate it to enter samadhi.


Hmmmm..... This conclusion was arrived at how? By reading a book?.....some posts?......through experience? Just curious.

quote:
Originally posted by gumpi

Further, assuming that samadhi is the goal, the spiritual eye is the ONLY MEANS of achieving that goal.


First, samadhi isn't the goal....at least not for me and a few others I know for sure.

Second, exactly how did you arrive at the conclusion that the only way of acheiving samadhi was by penetrating the spiritual eye?

quote:
Originally posted by gumpi

What other ways do you know of to attain samadhi that doesn't involve the spiritual eye?


A consistant and effective meditation practice (perhaps combined with some other consistantly applied advanced yoga practices).

quote:
Originally posted by gumpi

Can you tell me please? Because i have never heard of anything else before.


You've been told all this before dude. Perhaps you just don't want to hear the answers you are given.

quote:
Originally posted by gumpi

So back to the original topic. If the spiritual eye is "scenery" and scenery is less important or less significant or less anything than practice, what is your goal? Tell me what your goal is and i will see if i can answer you.



Again the only goal here is abiding happiness 24/7 regardless of the external circumstances.

Hope this helps.

Love.
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riptiz

United Kingdom
741 Posts

Posted - Jan 20 2010 :  3:18:19 PM  Show Profile  Visit riptiz's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Gumpi,
I am surprised when some of my posts appear and recently had one rejected although Yogani's reply was in the same context as mine but worded differently.Anyway I am digressing.
Regarding samadhi, I have regularly stated that I enter samadhi almost everytime I do any sadhana and sometimes when I simply sit at work.I experienced this state on the very first time I used TM way back in 1976.I have no idea how I got to this state but I had this for two weeks each time I sat for meditation along with altered consciousness during my daily life, which was like dual consciousness.I was in my world and all else were in theirs.I even enter samadhi(empty of thoughts or any other senses)with my eyes open when doing japa which often makes it difficult to do any set number of rounds.I recently sat for japa and only achieved about 14 rounds in 1 hour. I entered samadhi and returned to normal consciousness after 25 mins.I have no idea how this happens and it is not something I aim to do but my sadguru told me at xmas that the practice of japa was aiming for samadhi.Unfortunately very little research has been done on sadhana and results.Hopefully we will all become quantum physics experts and start to understand a little.
L&L
Dave

Edited by - riptiz on Jan 20 2010 3:27:03 PM
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YogaIsLife

641 Posts

Posted - Jan 20 2010 :  3:43:25 PM  Show Profile  Visit YogaIsLife's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Firstly, i think that saying scenery is second place to practice is some kind of oxymoron. Why are you practising in the first place? Do you have a goal or not? If you have no goal i don't understand why you are practising. Attachment to results is different to having a goal.


Hi gumpi,

Somehow I feel this discussion will lead nowhere but I felt like saying this while reading your words:

There is no goal to practice, meaning no future purpose. When you go to bed what is your goal? Do you want to sleep why?

For me it is very simple: practice is its own reward. Simply. Of course it changes you. And of course over time you may notice differences. But if you make that your goeal then your progress will be minimal, whereas if you practice for the sake of experiencing whatever is there in the moment, you will go much further. A paradox, as you can see

My 2 cents.
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gumpi

United Kingdom
546 Posts

Posted - Jan 20 2010 :  4:09:52 PM  Show Profile  Visit gumpi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Carson,

THank you for your response. I could reply point by point but it is tedious and time consuming. Suffice to say that there are points i think we disagree on. Abiding inner silence 24/7 is terms that Yogani has used and that i couldn't find anywhere else, but it is completely different to yoga as i understand it. I am happy for you to have this as your goal but it is not the goal according to Patanjali, who's sutra speaks about samadhi all the way through with the definition at the beginning that "yoga is the cessation of the modifications of the mind stuff" with the view to liberation, or the destruction of reincarnation on the physical sphere. I take this as the purpose of yoga philosophy as it is standardly expressed in general.

TM and Deep Meditation a la AYP follow the same procedure of meditation. 20 minutes 2 times a day with the same directions on how to concentrate. I should have made this clear previously, which is all i meant.

I can't speak for your experience, obviously. I think that Deep Meditation has helped you to get off the drugs and so on. Did you practice any other meditation method before this one? Do you have anything to compare it to other than sleep? I would be willing to concede that AYP helped you a lot but i wouldn't be persuaded to accept that intoning the words "I AM" has any special qualities beyond what the practitioner themselves claims for it.

It is irrelevent as to what my own personal experiences are.

I mention hypnotism a lot because it is not something that can be ruled out in every case. That doesn't mean i believe it occurs in your case or anybody else's case on this website. It is just food for thought.



Dave, thanks for your reply. We each experience differences with meditation that are no less valuable because of that. I am simply saying that the spiritual eye is a marker along the way that has a definite universal quality to it and i am asking questions here to try to ascertain the truth of that. If you haven't experienced the spiritual eye and it doesn't feature much in your model of yoga i have no qualms with that. These things could very much depend upon karma. I am just disappointed sometimes that things couldn't be a bit more simpler.


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Clear White Light

USA
229 Posts

Posted - Jan 20 2010 :  4:45:17 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Gumpi,

Even when we consider every language of every organism on every planet in the multi-verse, there will still not be enough words to tell you what is true and what is not

One hundred million words mean nothing in the face of one second of actual experience. If you cannot discipline yourself to maintain a daily practice routine, all you will ever have are words.

Edited by - Clear White Light on Jan 20 2010 4:52:19 PM
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CarsonZi

Canada
3189 Posts

Posted - Jan 20 2010 :  5:13:31 PM  Show Profile  Visit CarsonZi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Gumpi

quote:
Originally posted by gumpi

THank you for your response. I could reply point by point but it is tedious and time consuming.


Preaching to the choir....I know exactly how tedious and time consuming it is....I am doing it right now.

quote:
Originally posted by gumpi

Suffice to say that there are points i think we disagree on.


Indeed.

quote:
Originally posted by gumpi

Abiding inner silence 24/7 is terms that Yogani has used and that i couldn't find anywhere else, but it is completely different to yoga as i understand it.


Perhaps one of the things that puts AYP in a league all it's own?

quote:
Originally posted by gumpi

I am happy for you to have this as your goal but it is not the goal according to Patanjali.....


Patanjali was a great Indian sage, but he doesn't get to set goals for me nor for anyone else unless they let him. We each are in control of our own reasons for practicing.....until we aren't

quote:
Originally posted by gumpi

......who's sutra speaks about samadhi all the way through with the definition at the beginning that "yoga is the cessation of the modifications of the mind stuff" with the view to liberation, or the destruction of reincarnation on the physical sphere. I take this as the purpose of yoga philosophy as it is standardly expressed in general.


Your choice, same as it is my choice to practice due to the innumerable ways it enhances life for me.

quote:
Originally posted by gumpi

TM and Deep Meditation a la AYP follow the same procedure of meditation. 20 minutes 2 times a day with the same directions on how to concentrate. I should have made this clear previously, which is all i meant.


I understood what you meant.

quote:
Originally posted by gumpi

I can't speak for your experience, obviously. I think that Deep Meditation has helped you to get off the drugs and so on.


Meditation created the ability for me to mentally drop my addictions to drugs (and other things too).....Pranayama made it physically possible to drop my addictions without withdrawal symptoms....something I am still astounded by a year and a half later.

quote:
Originally posted by gumpi

Did you practice any other meditation method before this one?


Yes. I came to AYP after practicing Kriya Yoga (taught to me by the SRF) and Vipassana meditations (taught to me by a Buddhist society here in Calgary). I also had dabbled in trataka (focusing on a flame, self taught). And I had extensive experience with many different altered states do to my extensive use of entheogens for a dozen or so years prior. Ayahausca to Ketamine to Morning Glory.

quote:
Originally posted by gumpi

Do you have anything to compare it to other than sleep?


Yes.

quote:
Originally posted by gumpi

I would be willing to concede that AYP helped you a lot


Very noble of you

quote:
Originally posted by gumpi

but i wouldn't be persuaded to accept that intoning the words "I AM" has any special qualities beyond what the practitioner themselves claims for it.


Again, your perogative. Doesn't mean it doesn't, doesn't mean it does....only personal experience can show you Truth for you.

quote:
Originally posted by gumpi

It is irrelevent as to what my own personal experiences are.


Irrelevant for me, not irrelevant for you.

quote:
Originally posted by gumpi

I mention hypnotism a lot because it is not something that can be ruled out in every case.


Nor can insanity....doesn't mean it plays any part whatsoever though.

quote:
Originally posted by gumpi

That doesn't mean i believe it occurs in your case or anybody else's case on this website. It is just food for thought.


Consider it pondered

Love.
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YogaIsLife

641 Posts

Posted - Jan 20 2010 :  5:54:12 PM  Show Profile  Visit YogaIsLife's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
I am just disappointed sometimes that things couldn't be a bit more simpler.



Aren't we complicating them sometimes? How much simpler can it be than this: just to be, in this moment, as it is. stop everything and do this. can you do it? Can it be any more simple?

whatever is there (thoughts, doubts, irritations) - accept them as they are. simple.
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gumpi

United Kingdom
546 Posts

Posted - Jan 20 2010 :  6:22:49 PM  Show Profile  Visit gumpi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Carson, i feel that the way you have responded to my posts is very intimidating and hostile. Do you have any particular reason why you decide to respond sentence by sentence? Because i am not perceiving that it is an attempt to render help or advice.

[your interpretations are ok but it is the truth that matters] - this is the kind of response you have been giving.

I absolutely feel no need to respond to what you said word by word not only because it is time consuming and tedious, as i said before, but also because it is so mind numbingly extra that i find myself sighing a lot. But don't let that give you cause to respond if you can help it.

So you practiced the SRF techniques before AYP but you found them wanting? What then gave you the confidence to say that AYP helped you more? Were you given kriya yoga by SRF? How long did you practice the SRF techniques before beginning AYP? What drew you to SRF?

"I understood what you meant."

If you understood what i meant you wouldn't have responded the way you did, which was to try to point out that when i said AYP meditation and TM are the same that they were actually different. Your reasoning as to their difference was spurious in reality and of little consequence to what i clarified.

In any case i am happy that you are finding the results you are but your way of replying to me indicates you still have some work left to do.



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brother neil

USA
752 Posts

Posted - Jan 20 2010 :  7:37:01 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
well Gumpi I think the AYP view on scenery may be something like this.
say your going to the beach,
your goal is now to drive, if something beautiful comes up on the drive sticking your head out the window to look at it you may get hit by another car. Now, once the drive is done, you are at the beach and the goal is to play at the beach, so you do that.

meditation is driving, at the end of meditation your at the beach so to speak.

I can appreciate you wanting to prove AYP wrong, i have done that myself with AYP as well as other systems of practice. Now my view, hey whatever works for you is great and who am I to doubt you.

Now I think would be a good time for popcorn while I watch this boxing match

best to you brother

Neil


Edited by - brother neil on Jan 20 2010 7:39:54 PM
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CarsonZi

Canada
3189 Posts

Posted - Jan 20 2010 :  9:33:40 PM  Show Profile  Visit CarsonZi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hey Gumpi

quote:
Originally posted by gumpi

Carson, i feel that the way you have responded to my posts is very intimidating and hostile.


Sorry that you feel that way...I had no hostility in my heart when I wrote my responses, nor was I trying to intimidate you. Sorry you felt that way. Seriously.

quote:
Originally posted by gumpi

Do you have any particular reason why you decide to respond sentence by sentence?


Yup. I like to be thorough and I find it easier to address everything that is said this way. If you notice, I do this with just about every post I respond to. Don't take it personal.

quote:
Originally posted by gumpi

Because i am not perceiving that it is an attempt to render help or advice.


I know better then to try to help or give you advice Gumpi. We have had several "go-at-it's" in both public and private. I am merely here having a discussion with you because I felt drawn to do so.

quote:
Originally posted by gumpi

[your interpretations are ok but it is the truth that matters] - this is the kind of response you have been giving.


Truth does matter. But truth is individual and must be discovered for oneself. I can't tell you what truth is, only you can know what truth is for you.

quote:
Originally posted by gumpi

I absolutely feel no need to respond to what you said word by word not only because it is time consuming and tedious, as i said before, but also because it is so mind numbingly extra that i find myself sighing a lot. But don't let that give you cause to respond if you can help it.


That's fine Gumpi...I have no need for you to respond the way I do.

quote:
Originally posted by gumpi

So you practiced the SRF techniques before AYP but you found them wanting?


Indeed. I wasn't getting any results with the Kriya Yoga system.

quote:
Originally posted by gumpi

What then gave you the confidence to say that AYP helped you more?


Experience. AYP DID help me more. In many ways.

quote:
Originally posted by gumpi

Were you given kriya yoga by SRF?


Yes.

quote:
Originally posted by gumpi

How long did you practice the SRF techniques before beginning AYP?


Not quite two years.

quote:
Originally posted by gumpi

What drew you to SRF?


Autobiography of a Yogi.

quote:
Originally posted by gumpi

"I understood what you meant."

If you understood what i meant you wouldn't have responded the way you did, which was to try to point out that when i said AYP meditation and TM are the same that they were actually different. Your reasoning as to their difference was spurious in reality and of little consequence to what i clarified.


The techniques may be similar (in fact are pretty similar), but they are indeed different. One way is in the mantra that is used.

quote:
Originally posted by gumpi

In any case i am happy that you are finding the results you are but your way of replying to me indicates you still have some work left to do.


Thanks for the appreciative joy Gumpi. I hope you find what you are looking for. (and yes, I do still have work to do....we all do).

Love.


Edited by - CarsonZi on Jan 20 2010 9:34:12 PM
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Tibetan_Ice

Canada
758 Posts

Posted - Jan 20 2010 :  10:06:27 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
quote:
Originally posted by gumpi

So you practiced the SRF techniques before AYP but you found them wanting?


Indeed. I wasn't getting any results with the Kriya Yoga system.



Hi Carson :)
If you don't mind me asking a few questions...

1) Did you ever get the initiation ritual from SRF in person? Did they give you the special Kriya Yoga practices?

2) How would you compare the SRF spinal breathing to AYP spinal breathing? (I'm looking for details here, not a generalized statement.. )

3) How long did you do the Self Energization Exercises for? Did you do the Hong Sau technique and the Aum technique?

Thanks.

:)
TI
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Victor

USA
910 Posts

Posted - Jan 21 2010 :  01:50:30 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Gumpi,
I don't want to go into point by point debate but I do want to respond to two points that you make. First the question of samadhi as the breathless state and what is it about AYP that might bring it about. I can't speak for a high state of samadhi as I am still a relative beginner in meditation with mantra ( 5 years daily practice) but I can tell you a significant difference between AYP mantra meditation and TM and that is kechari. Otherwise I agree with you (as far as I know) that the technique is essentially the same although the mantra may differ.
I have made this personal observation. When sitting quietly if I place my hand in front of my nose I can feel the air of my breath coming from my nose. I feel it brush my fingers. When I then practice kechari and place the hand in front of my nose I don't feel the breath brush my fingers. I don't claim that the breath actually stops but it does change, it feels that it becomes more internal, like it sort of recycles itself or becomes much more still. This is my experience and has been the same ever since I learned to practice stage 3 kechari so there you have it. As meditation deepens the breath changes and becomes more still.
The next point is the statement that your own experience is irrelevent.
This is the most major objection that I have to all of your speculations. This practice is experiential, your experience really is the ONLY thing that matters here. The experience that you have in your own daily practice. This is it, this is what it is all about. All the rest is speculation and mental gymnastics. So please, can you tell us what your personal practice consists of? Do you practice kechari? Do you practice pranayama?
In my own understanding and and from what I have been taught the two main differences in AYP from Iyengar pranayama which I have been trained in and from TM which I have read about are twofold. One is the addition of the dynamic jalandhara in pranayama which has made a significant improvement in adding a fluid quality to my practice of pranayama which had not existed in Iyengar pranayama and the second is the addition of kechari mudra which has really been the main thing that has allowed me to have a steady meditation practice previous to which I had too much surface restlessness to sit steadily. The rest is essentially an integrated package that seems to work well. It is teh package that Yogani has put together, not to compete with kriya or other systems but to offer to people who perhaps have not learned kriya or other excellent systems or for those who have been trained in these practices and have had missing pieces to the puzzle. Kriya is also an integrated practice that I have heard also works well. Eventually you must make the practice your own and take all of these teachings and make them your own so rather than constantly comparing systems I would say that the thing to do is to practice in the best way that you can and if a new teaching gives you a new piece to the puzzle (kechari, chin pump, a certain mantra) then use it to your best advantage. Comparing systems is a relatively modern middle class western form of shopping that is a luzury that ancient yoga students didn't have. They were fortunate if they could find a teacher within their area who would share with them. Shopping is fine in the beginning stages but once you have learned a bit it is time to put it to your own practice and become dedicated to your own process.
So...
what is your daily practice and your own personal experience? That is all that I personally am interested in, the rest does not interest me much at all.

Edited by - Victor on Jan 21 2010 01:57:06 AM
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Clear White Light

USA
229 Posts

Posted - Jan 21 2010 :  07:42:26 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Gumpi,

I must seriously question your motives for making threads like this. In countless other threads, people have made all kinds of effort to give you the best advice they can manage. However, when they do so, you ignore their advice stating that it is too "tedious and time-consuming" to respond with the same care and attention that others have. This is very telling. If you find it too tedious to properly respond to your own thread, I can only imagine how this laziness must carry over into other aspects of your life. Perhaps you are just too lazy to put the time necessary into this process. I hope one day you can over come this and move beyond merely playing with words.

Good luck to you
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CarsonZi

Canada
3189 Posts

Posted - Jan 21 2010 :  10:56:40 AM  Show Profile  Visit CarsonZi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi TI

quote:
Originally posted by Tibetan_Ice

If you don't mind me asking a few questions...


Of course not

quote:
Originally posted by Tibetan_Ice

1) Did you ever get the initiation ritual from SRF in person?


No. I could not afford to go and meet a guru at the time. (nor now, not that I would)

quote:
Originally posted by Tibetan_Ice

Did they give you the special Kriya Yoga practices?


No, I don't think so....I was working just with the regular lessons (if that is what they are called)....the ones that are mailed to you every month or whatever.

quote:
Originally posted by Tibetan_Ice

2) How would you compare the SRF spinal breathing to AYP spinal breathing? (I'm looking for details here, not a generalized statement.. )


Are you talking experientially or talking in practice? Experientially I did not find any benefit to SRF pranayam...perhaps I was just not "ripe" enough, I don't know. AYP pranayama got me off methadone in 10 weeks without withdrawals....experientially a HUGE difference. Practice-wise, the SRF pranayam has specific sounds that go with the inhale and the exhale and it does not have kechari mudra.

quote:
Originally posted by Tibetan_Ice

3) How long did you do the Self Energization Exercises for?


Are you talking per practice or in total?

quote:
Originally posted by Tibetan_Ice

Did you do the Hong Sau technique and the Aum technique?


Yes to both

quote:
Originally posted by Tibetan_Ice

Thanks.


Anytime

Love.
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Etherfish

USA
3615 Posts

Posted - Jan 21 2010 :  8:29:53 PM  Show Profile  Visit Etherfish's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
I used to do SRF before here also, and had received kriya, but did not practice it very long before coming here. The SRF techniques are very complicated, and VERY time consuming. They only ask you to practice once a day, but by the time you receive kriya, that one practice is a minimum of two hours, and they recommend more.
So when I started AYP and soon got results I wasn't getting with SRF, I decided to abandon SRF.
Nothing against Yogananda at all.
But there is a possibility that people who run SRF have advanced at an earlier time when it was necessary to practice such complicated and time consuming things, and maybe it is not now? I don't know. I just go with what works for me.
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Tibetan_Ice

Canada
758 Posts

Posted - Jan 21 2010 :  8:48:13 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish

I used to do SRF before here also, and had received kriya, but did not practice it very long before coming here. The SRF techniques are very complicated, and VERY time consuming. They only ask you to practice once a day, but by the time you receive kriya, that one practice is a minimum of two hours, and they recommend more.
So when I started AYP and soon got results I wasn't getting with SRF, I decided to abandon SRF.
Nothing against Yogananda at all.
But there is a possibility that people who run SRF have advanced at an earlier time when it was necessary to practice such complicated and time consuming things, and maybe it is not now? I don't know. I just go with what works for me.


Hi Etherfish :)
When you received kriya, did it contain a 'spinal breathing' technique? If so, did it involve bringing the light down from above the head and into the spine?

Thanks.
:)
TI
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Wil

Sweden
108 Posts

Posted - Jun 21 2021 :  10:49:52 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
I was looking to reaffirm that I use the word Scenery correctly and Kirtamans first post here made it very clear. Furthermore, this post is gold!
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maverick angel

France
42 Posts

Posted - Jun 23 2021 :  09:09:10 AM  Show Profile  Visit maverick angel's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
I totally concur with the OP, that the advice on scenery is incorrect, There are certain visions that are indicative of important spiritual events occurring but you have to go to the visionary yoga traditions of Tibet get any understanding. The highest yoga tantras and the Great Perfection traditions of both Buddhism and Bon work very closely with particular visions. They have identified a system of luminous channels which serve as pathways for luminous awareness. The body is literally wired for vision.They are a soteriological dimension of the body. The most important is the crystal tube which runs from the heart to the eyes. Through this the luminous awareness at the heart can project itself out of the eyes into the world and see itself, allowing the ultimate to recognise itself. I know this from personal experience also. The only book on the subject of visionary yoga is Naked Seeing by Christopher Hatchell. https://www.amazon.com/Naked-Seeing...p/0199982910
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Christi

United Kingdom
4156 Posts

Posted - Jun 23 2021 :  12:47:18 PM  Show Profile  Visit Christi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Maverik Angel,

AYP is a particular system of yoga that uses certain practices. These practices do not change as visions or spiritual experiences arise. They are designed to take someone all the way home, without changes needing to be made along the road. For example, Deep Meditation remains the same all the way to the arising of unity, bliss, self-realization and divine love. Spinal Breathing remains the same all the way to the end of the process of kundalini and the arising of ecstatic living.

So, the teaching on scenery in AYP is correct, because of the specific nature of the practices being used. It is correct within the specific context of the AYP system. When experiences arise, they can be enjoyed, just as we can enjoy the passing scenery occurring out of the car window when we are driving into the mountains. We can even stop the car for a while and get out and enjoy the visions. But the visions are not the destination. The destination is beyond anything that can be perceived with the senses, whether they are external senses or internal senses.

There are some systems of yoga that require people to change their practices depending on the scenery that is arising in the moment. These paths are perfectly valid paths, but they use a different system. Of course every time someone changes a spiritual practice, there is a clunky stage they have to go through, to settle in with the new practice. So, having a system that requires changes to practice methodology, depending on scenery arising in the moment, is not necessarily better. Another problem that I have seen arise occasionally in these schools, is that people can begin to become attached to the scenery. If the scenery arising gives people a sense of attainment and progression, then there is the danger of identification with and addiction to particular experiences. These are just potential dangers to be aware of, not necessarily things that will arise for everyone.

So, all methodology has its pros and cons. For AYP, Yogani deliberately chose practices that were not dependent on scenery arising. For example this is one reason that nada yoga is not used in AYP, because it is dependent on inner sounds being present. See this forum post on that:

https://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic...D=6517#58326


Christi
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