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Maximus
India
187 Posts |
 Posted - Jan 02 2010 : 12:44:31 PM
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| For quite sometime I have been reflecting on the preciousness of life and the horror of losing it all at death (for those interested,had started this thread http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....OPIC_ID=5805 back then). That worry led me to realize the foolishness of relying on the concept of reincarnation. Nothing can be more useless as this concept of reincarnation. The concept is true (something gets reborn, alright), but is utterly useless for any practical purpose because I will be a fool to believe that I will be gifted a body again. It is not me that created and sustained the body. I don't at all understand the workings of the body, and wonderfully intelligent things are happening every moment in my body - heart beat, senses working etc, not a fraction of this hard work will I ever complete in my lifetime. It is God that is doing all this for me, for the wretched man. It is really a different entity, God itself. Or call it intelligent nature (I have become firmly convinced in Creationism, as against evolution of mere matter). Googling along my thoughts, I came across these lines in the Bible which seem to confirm my thoughts: "you are not your own; you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body" . But commentaries on these lines invariably refer to blood of christ etc which make no sense to a non christian like me. Can someone explain better? |
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cosmic
USA
821 Posts |
Posted - Jan 03 2010 : 5:59:37 PM
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Hi Maximus,
You bring up a great point. There is no guarantee of getting another body after this life is over. As I see it, there is no guarantee of anything beyond this life, or even beyond this moment. I feel that the life we have now should be cherished and lived to the fullest.
Regarding beliefs (any belief), their usefulness really depends on you, doesn't it? Your approach makes a huge difference in the application of any belief.
For some people, beliefs are no big deal. For others, belief is law. You can use any belief to improve your life or cripple yourself. You are the determining factor, as I see it.
quote:
Originally posted by Maximus
"you are not your own; you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body" . But commentaries on these lines invariably refer to blood of christ etc which make no sense to a non christian like me. Can someone explain better?
One possible interpretation: Your body is borrowed and one day will have to be returned. Treat it well and be grateful for it. Take care of the body and use it for good. Live life to the fullest.
Happy new year to you 
With Love
cosmic |
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omarkaya
Spain
146 Posts |
Posted - Jan 09 2010 : 09:47:00 AM
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| even its riencarnation true or not,ive found out that quality of this existence is so dependable from planets influence,,self behavior,will power (luck? i believe there is no luck)power,intelligence,action,right reaction and a million of stuff that makes a single minute of our life, be one way or a different way.all this facts must mean something,why my life is this way and your life is that way,when we know that a right horoscop is fundamental to have a good quality of life,and that having bad planet influence can have such a rough impact in someones life,can somebody explain me, why people have to depend on this?WHY!!!,it must be something transcendental on it, it without doubt has to obey to a reason, it must be attached to a certain sense,or could it be that the reason of the quality of my life, was engineered by another body life actions?i think that the universal LAW of cause and effect is all around us,we can see it on nature ,relationships,illness,etc etc etc. |
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saved
USA
1 Posts |
Posted - Jan 23 2010 : 6:29:32 PM
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Hi Maximus
I applaud your search for the truth in a world of confusing and conflicting answers. Your search is leading you in the right direction. The bible also says it is appointed to a man to die ONCE and then the judgment. It says this because God created the world. You are right that such order and beauty could not happen by itself. And in the beginning, God created man and woman and lived in peace and harmony with them in the Garden of Eden. There was only one rule from God- do not eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge or you will die. Only one rule. But an angel called Lucifer who had lead a rebellion against God and had been cast out of heaven took on the form of a serpent and invaded this paradise to get back at God. He told Eve and Adam that God was lying about eating the fruit and that He was holding them back,that they could be so much more if they just got out from God's rule. They believed his lie and ate the fruit and immediately felt not better but ashamed and they covered their nakedness with leaves. When God came to them and their disobediance was obvious, he killed two animals and covered them with the skins. This is the first example of blood being spilled to cover one's sins. Since Adam and Eve had made a decision that they could run their lives better without Him, he sent them out of the beautiful garden where he had provided for all their needs and told them that the lives without his generous provision would be ones of painful toil, of sweat and death. He predicted that an unnamed offspring of Eve would crush the head of the snake. Not long after that their son Cain killed his brother Abel and so began the long descent of man into violence, selfishness, greed, vanity and lust. The Old Testament of the Bible is largely the history of the Jewish people who become a race favored by God when he picked out a reverent man named Abraham and told him his descendants would become a great nation and that through him all people on earth would be blessed. Many centuries transpire. God continues to love his people who he created but over and over they disobey him and worship false gods and idols. God gives them the 10 Commandments to follow but while Moses us up on the mountain getting them his people are building a golden calf to worship. When the Jewish exiles from Egypt lead by God reach the promised land to be named Israel, God tells them they are to pay for their many sins by regularly sacrificing animals in the Temple to cover the sin. Again blood is spilled to cover sin. Obviously sin is not to be taken lightly and a righteous God holds people accountable for their actions. This is His world and our actions upon it are important to Him. Time and again, you see God's grief that his people turn their backs on Him and commit great sins. But the Bible tells us in the New Testament that all along he has had a a plan of salvation to bring home his beloved children by dealing once and for all with their thousands and millions of sins or actions against him. In the old testament book of Isaiah, chap 9 the prophet predicts 700 years before Jesus that "the people walking in darkness have seen a great light... for unto us a child is born a son is given ... and he will be called wonderful counselor, mighty God, everlasting father and the prince of peace." A prediction that will be fulfilled in Jesus. You can see God's plan unfolding. Again in Isaiah 53 the prophet speaks of one who is to come who will be " despised and rejected... Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows ...he was pierced (on the cross) for our transgressions...the punishment that brought us peace was upon him and by his wounds we are healed. We all like sheep have gone astray each of us has turned to his own way and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all." The allusion is to a sacrificial animal who took on the sins of the person it was sacrificed for. But unfortunately no sooner had the person left the temple, then he began accumulating new sins. God knew something more had to be done. But he had to show his people that they were not capable of obeying all the laws all the time because of their selfish sinful natures. A more permanent solution was waiting in the wings.
Then as the new testament begins, a small child is born in a manger,an animal's feeding trough, in the small town of Bethlehem. He was born in a manger in a stable because their was no room in the inn for his very pregnant mother just liketoday when there is no room in many hearts for Jesus. His is not a normal birth. His mother has been visited by an angel and she has conceived a child through the spirt of God coming upon Her. It is a virgin birth, a miraculous birth. The angel tells his mother that his name will be Jesus which mean God saves. More angels announce the birth to a group of shepherds who are watching sheep who are destined to be sacrificed at the temple for sins. This is no coincidence. Wise men from the east follow a brilliant star pointing the way to the stable. Many years later when his cousin John sees him he declares, "behold the lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world." In the Book of John, his disciple, he wrote of Jesus, "In the beginning was the Word and Word was with God and the Word was god and he was with God in the beginning... the Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us." He was God. He performed many miracles including raising a girl and his friend Lazarus from the dead to affirm his identity and his message. One of the most important things he said wasin John 3:16 "For God so LOVED the world that he gave his only son that those who believe in Him will not perish but have eternal life." In John 14:6 He added "I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes through the father except through me." The reason he said that is that all along he was meant to be the perfect, sinless lamb to be slaughtered to pay the price of all mankind. After being whipped and beaten by the Romans, scorned by his own people, he is nailed to a cross. His last words are "it is finished" In Greek, the word refers to the cancelling of a debt. The debt in this case is the sin debt of mankind. The perfect sinless blood of Jesus pays the debt. It is Jesus who has undone Satans plan wso long ago in the Garden of Eden. He is the one who God predicted to strike Satan on his head. To understand Christ's sacrifice imagine that you stand before a judge guilty as you could be, with absolutely no hope of escaping punishment and for no other reason but great love and compassion the judge steps down from his bench and pays your penalty himself. The payment made so painfully by Jesus must be claimed in faith or it is worthless. Those who claim it in faith are called children of god and they are guaranteed that when they die they will go to heaven and once again will live in great peace with God as He always intended. We know it is true because Jesus is the only great religious figure who came back from the dead. His empty tomb is our proof that this great news is true. This is called the Gospel or the Good News. I hope and pray that is is good news to you and all who read it. It is the greatest love story of all time. God who loves us has come down to earth and lived as we do and offered himself in sacrifice to pay the horrible accumulated price of our selfish disobediance. Don't walk away from his offer. He holds out two nail pierced hands to you to show you just how much he wants you home with Him. "In my Fathers house are many rooms. I go to prepare a place for you," Jesus promises. Grasp that promise. Nothing else in life means anything after death[/size=5]. |
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adamantclearlight
USA
410 Posts |
Posted - Jan 23 2010 : 9:28:53 PM
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Hey Saved, We're all saved now. Thanks.
Adamant |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jan 23 2010 : 11:41:27 PM
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Hi Saved,
Are you sure about all that?
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
PS- Welcome to the AYP Forum. This is a great place to become familiar with the yogic practices that can help you know in your own experience that "the kingdom of heaven is within you".
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Edited by - Kirtanman on Jan 23 2010 11:48:27 PM |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Jan 24 2010 : 10:02:02 AM
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Welcome Saved,
I have to disagree that the Jewish people are favored by God. They are chosen however, and seem to be given a really rough time. These rough times can be used spiritually to overcome their egos.
I would not wish to be one of them as they have a hard time.
Many of the things in the bible are metaphors for yogic truths and methods to realize the christ within each of us. Yogananda was one who realized this and never spoke harshly of the bible, while constantly showing his students the parallels.
Since you are here, I think maybe you are one who can see those connections also.
There is nothing wrong with preparing for death, but then one must do daily practices to be with God while we are alive. It is not just for our own benefit, but for all mankind. |
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YogaIsLife
641 Posts |
Posted - Jan 25 2010 : 2:48:58 PM
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Great topic Maximus. I sense your inquiry and search is sincere, as I have read your past posts. And you ask some pertinent questions. Do seek the answer, just try to remain calm and not burn yourself out. The answers are there and they will come.
All the best. |
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YogaIsLife
641 Posts |
Posted - Jan 25 2010 : 2:51:27 PM
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Just a thought: if there is no guarantee of anything after death why not take advantage of the only present reality (this moment) to the fullest?
(Now, you must find out for yourself what "taking advantage of this moiment to the fullest" really menas to you of course... ) |
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omarkaya
Spain
146 Posts |
Posted - Jan 25 2010 : 4:52:11 PM
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| since we agree that we live on maya,how could we live this life to the fullest?however,how many chances have the human being to get out of maya.i think the pursuit of enlightement should be goal of every human being.that could mean living this life to the fullest and the other way could mean being fooled by life. |
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miguel
Spain
1197 Posts |
Posted - Jan 25 2010 : 5:03:06 PM
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quote:
since we agree that we live on maya,how could we live this life to the fullest?however,how many chances have the human being to get out of maya.i think the pursuit of enlightement should be goal of every human being.that could mean living this life to the fullest and the other way could mean being fooled by life.
Great. |
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YogaIsLife
641 Posts |
Posted - Jan 25 2010 : 5:10:15 PM
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quote:
since we agree that we live on maya,how could we live this life to the fullest?however,how many chances have the human being to get out of maya.i think the pursuit of enlightement should be goal of every human being.that could mean living this life to the fullest and the other way could mean being fooled by life.
Interesting...so you say life is illusion. What is real? What is the difference between the manifest and the unmanifest?Liberation from what, and towards what?
P.S.: Just to clear any misconceptions, when I say "live life to the fullest" I don't mean go party hard and get drunk (although nothing is wrong with this). What I mean is live this moment fully present. That is all. But I did say it is anybody's choice to decide what it means to live this moment to the fullest, noone else to tell what is best for anyone. We are our own masters, there is no other way. This is how I feel at least. |
Edited by - YogaIsLife on Jan 25 2010 5:34:12 PM |
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omarkaya
Spain
146 Posts |
Posted - Jan 25 2010 : 6:34:04 PM
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| what about being liberated from senses needs and wordly pleasures ego needs nonexistence worries,how could you fully implicate your self in fully living the present when the present wont give you no enlightenment but momentary illusive distraction or pleasure and consequently frustration and dissatisfaction.what about being in peace living the secret grace of god inside you and enjoy the ananda of wisdome and liberation,i believe that the happiest life is given to you by god and when you live in gods grace you become filled up and the wordly implication doesnt attracts you anymore,i would not talk like this in this forum if its not because its a truth seekers forum,and imagine that we are here questioning and discussing spiritual topics. |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jan 25 2010 : 7:44:24 PM
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Hi Omarkaya,
Words and concepts can often get in the way; some of the other expressions in this thread may be closer to your current view, than you might realize.
quote:
Originally posted by omarkaya
what about being liberated from senses needs and wordly pleasures ego needs nonexistence worries,how could you fully implicate your self in fully living the present when the present wont give you no enlightenment but momentary illusive distraction or pleasure and consequently frustration and dissatisfaction.
This all boils down to who in living in the present.
If it's ego-mind, then yes, the dream of bondage continues.
If it is the freedom of the liberated self living this moment, as the wholeness of awareness ... which is effectively synonymous with presence; then there is celebration; liberation and enjoyment.
quote:
what about being in peace living the secret grace of god inside you and enjoy the ananda of wisdome and liberation
The greatest news of all: living the secret grace of God, and living life to the fullest, are not mutually exclusive, in any way.
Full liberation is full enjoyment.
When all is living celebration, and at the same time utter release to the glory of God (Self, Peace; whatever the ishta - highest ideal - that is ultimately the inherently unbound awareness of the wholeness that we each and all are, now) ... that's about as closely as possible as the condition of enlightenment can be described in words.
quote:
i believe that the happiest life is given to you by god and when you live in gods grace you become filled up and the wordly implication doesnt attracts you anymore
So-called worldly activities (friends, family, food, sex, music, fun, etc.) can be a beautiful, natural and harmonious aspect of the overall experience of enlightenment and liberation; enlightenment isn't freedom from being human ... it's freedom to be fully human.
If there's a single greatest block to enlightenment, it's probably ideas about enlightenment.
That's why yoga is so beautiful -- yoga is not about belief, yoga is about practice, and enjoying the liberation that results.
I hope this is helpful.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
"Do whatever you want, and meditate."
~Swami Lakshmanjoo |
Edited by - Kirtanman on Jan 25 2010 9:40:13 PM |
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omarkaya
Spain
146 Posts |
Posted - Jan 25 2010 : 8:39:36 PM
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hello kirtanman,well i dont want to get into analyzing what does it mean renunciation liberation and ananda,i think your point of view is very positive and optimistic but i consider that is not correct,sorry.however it could be a good motivation for most of citizens that want to have a normal life with a gentle touch of spirituality.family distraccions funny pleasures, sexual life involve to much attention,and emotion,for an orthodox spiritual life,not in vain,some yogis and spiritual people reclude themselves in asharams and himalayan monasteries to fully live their spirituality,without distractions and tentations.but it is true that even enjoying a "healthy"normal life,one can live the gods grace,everyone is different,but for most of higher spiritual practices and stages of spirituality,renouncement is necessary.kirtanman,im not saying you are wrong,i just think different. |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Jan 25 2010 : 9:01:18 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
"Do what you want, and meditate."
~Swami Lakshmanjoo
I LOVE this, K-man!
It is so universal . . .applies to so many threads on the forums. . . |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jan 25 2010 : 9:34:55 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
"Do what you want, and meditate."
~Swami Lakshmanjoo
I LOVE this, K-man!
It is so universal . . .applies to so many threads on the forums. . .
Cool; Thanks, Ether!
And I most certainly agree.
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jan 25 2010 : 9:56:50 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
"Do whatever you want, and meditate."
~Swami Lakshmanjoo
I LOVE this, K-man!
It is so universal . . .applies to so many threads on the forums. . .
Cool; Thanks, Ether!
And I most certainly agree.
And, as you may have noticed .... I changed the original quote by one syllable (the word "what" became "whatever").
Here's the background on that quote:
Swami Lakshmanjoo was giving a series of lecture of the Bhagavad-Gita, specifically Abhinavagupta's recension, which provides a summary verse for each chapter.
Here are Swami Lakshmanjoo's exact comments, from the audio transcript:
"Swami Lakshmanjoo: Now the conclusion of the fourth chapter.
vidhatte karma yatkincidakçecchåmåtrapurvakam /
tenaiva subhabhåjah syustriptåh karanadevatåh // 4 //
The conclusion of this chapter is, the flow of your organs of senses towards enjoying objective world . . . what you have to do there?
You have not to control your organs of senses. Don’t control your organs.
Viddhatte karma yat kincit akçecchåmåtra purvakam
Whatever you think, your mind says that, “I want that thing”, get that thing and enjoy. Don’t control your mind in that way. If you control your mind nothing will happen, you will only suffer.
Don’t control it, do it according to the choice of your mind.
Tenaiva subhabhåjah syuh, then your mind will be directed, focused uninterruptedly with meditation; then you can meditate properly.
John: So the point here is, if you try to control your mind and do all these giving up this and that, then you’re taking your attention away from maintaining awareness and controlling this. And that only causes more agitation.
Swami Lakshmanjoo:: Yes, that is the main point of this chapter.
Denise: So you should do whatever you want?
Swami Lakshmanjoo: Whatever you want, you do and meditate! Don’t waste your time, don’t waste your time in controlling. If you want to eat something, eat and sit and meditate. If you want to enjoy go to pictures (movies), go and see and come and meditate.
Denise: But meditate!
Swami Lakshmanjoo:Yes Meditate, it is meant for meditation. Enjoyment of world of senses is meant for meditation. It is not meant for not-meditation. You have to meditate and you have to enjoy this world for the sake of meditation. Go, do everything, but be focused towards meditation–remember Lord."
~Source
**
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
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Edited by - Kirtanman on Jan 25 2010 10:23:20 PM |
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omarkaya
Spain
146 Posts |
Posted - Jan 26 2010 : 12:59:57 AM
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| the secret might be on not to control but transcend the mind,by witnessing it,mind is very playful,we cant or shouldnt experience everything it desires.but through knowledge and discernement we can transcend it.this is buddhi yoga the path of wisdome through which we perceive our habitual and therefore binding karmic patterns of thought and behavior.the term buddhi stems from the same verbal root buddha/awekened)thus when wisdome dawns on us,our sense of identity shifts from the body mind and external world to the witnessing self.to the degree that this shift has ocurred within us we are free.this inner freedom from our karmic conditioning coincides with our self realization of indiluted happiness or bliss(ananda)which like being and consciousness is a hallmark of the transcendental self,thats why self realization is the end of all suffering(dukkha).this is the highest human objective. |
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YogaIsLife
641 Posts |
Posted - Jan 26 2010 : 06:46:57 AM
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Hi omarkaya
I guess we have to agree to disagree then I do agree with your last post: mind is the "culprit", in a way - coloring our world, changing and shifting it between "heaven" and "hell". To the degree that this conditioning does not bond us, we are free, I agree wholeheartedly.
But I don't agree that yogis in a mountain cave or monastery are closer to "god's grace" than any "ordinary" human being. WE ARE God's Grace. No need to do anything about it, except remembering it - if you are so inclined (this desire is also divine, as any desire is, the way I see it). We have been too lost in thought, in dreaming, to forget the reality of our existence.
But I understand where you are coming from and, like you say, everyone is different, and that is ok.
I love the quotes Kitarnman! Always a pleasure to "read" you. Thanks! |
Edited by - YogaIsLife on Jan 26 2010 06:47:33 AM |
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omarkaya
Spain
146 Posts |
Posted - Jan 26 2010 : 11:32:02 AM
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| Well,Yogaislife,i hope that next time you read my post, you read it well.sorry but ive never said that to live in a cave was synonyme of living the gods grace,second,i dont think that desire is devine quality but rajasic,unconditional love ,YES it could be divine.Thanks miguel for your supporti can tell you its hard to find. |
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YogaIsLife
641 Posts |
Posted - Jan 26 2010 : 1:20:43 PM
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Hi omarkaya, sorry if I misread your post. Not intended.
I understand what you mean. But you know, words are still only words (or concepts) and are very limited. I truly believe that deep down we all feel/want the same.
With this in mind I'll try to define to you what I mean by desire. Desire is that feeling that wells up inside of you. All of life, all of creation, is a fruit of desire. Your search for enlightenment is desire, as is the need for two lovers to passionately make love - I see no difference between the two.
There would be nothing without desire. Desire is the primordial force behind creation. This is what I came to understand at least, observing my own desires in motion. Desire, Joy, Ecstasy, Wonder - all the same. The force steming from Love and moving towards Love.
As such, all desire is divine (because it comes from inside, as a response to an inner call or wanting to experience), even those considered "ungodly", "worldly" or even (horror!) "evil"!.
At the root of all desire is Love. What else could there be?
Cheers! |
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omarkaya
Spain
146 Posts |
Posted - Jan 26 2010 : 1:39:39 PM
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| Sorry,YogaisLife,we both know that sex is absolutely possible without love,and sometimes can be totally devoid of any love,but animal instint.desire is not behind all creation,desire is a human concept,nature dont act out of desire,but because we as humans feel desire in our corrupted karmic pattern mind,we tend to put the expression in all concepts and situations,desire is not a need,desire is caprice of the mind,is the infatuation of a non existed need.creation was not made out of desire.desire can be out of carnal or sensual motivation,it can be out of ego satisfaction,it can be a excuse of ego needs. |
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YogaIsLife
641 Posts |
Posted - Jan 26 2010 : 3:03:30 PM
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are humans part of the divine creation? If so, and, as you put it, the "corrupted karmic pattern mind" of humans must be as well. As such, is there anyhting "wrong" with any of it? IS there a "good" side of creation and a "corrupted" one? Or are these just a result of a limited vision of reality based on duality and relativity? In the whole is there any right and wrong "sides"? There is, if/when you are trying to achieve something, for example, union with god (which you are never really seperate from anyway...)
To be honest I sense this discussion will lead nowhere. I believe discussions only have one of two fruitful purposes - to uplift or inspire. Any discussion for the sake of proving ourselves right or wrong is rather pointless, dont you think? We are engaging in a purely philosophical debate, based on concepts we both have of "sex". "love", "enlightenment", "ego", "desire", etc. Of course what you say is right, as it is what I am saying. |
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omarkaya
Spain
146 Posts |
Posted - Jan 30 2010 : 5:13:51 PM
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| creation is of divine origin,we agree on that point.but the purpose of creation has a meaning.nature or divine creation is all the time challenging humans,physically,psychicaly and spiritualy.we came here to learn,life its an endless examination,we could not let ourseves failling the exams because of the excuse of the divine origin of the examinator,that could be double wrong.the meaning of existence is spiritual evolution.human is from divine origin,and little by little,has to untide his self from his animal plane.from maya or world of senses.its like ascending from chakras from the muladhara till dissolution.these are the stages of consciousness that he has to overcome. |
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omarkaya
Spain
146 Posts |
Posted - Apr 18 2010 : 3:38:56 PM
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| if you purify your muladhara and swadisthana chakras ,your mind ,your needs,desires and existence will change so much that you wouldnt recognize your self.thats why in tantra and yoga the purification of chakras are of so much capital importance.the desires of someone who hasnt purified his chakras are so much different than someone who has purified them,that we could certainly talk about two different human beings.the purity of our blood is the quality of our consciousness. |
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"You are not your own; you were bought at a price"
