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gumpi
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
 Posted - Oct 28 2009 : 11:11:23 AM
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Tricky subject this one. I don't know the answer. Should you have expectations from practice or not? Do you want to know God? And what if expectations can lead to self hypnosis? Is it better to have no expectations or should your bhakti, desire, be for God?
What bugs me is after practisings nothing happens. Then i start to feel skeptical and go into periods of disbelief etc.
And why, to me, are most of my experiences psychic and not of God? What IS God?
I firmly believe that the most predominent experiences most people in the world have, whether they practice spirituality or not, is precognition from dreams, coincidences, and out of body experiences. What does this mean? It could mean that a vast majoritity of meditators are experiencing things they take to be genuinely spiritual phenomena but which are simply self hypnosis. Then again, it could mean that some are just luckier or more blessed than other, and for reasons that are inexplicable.
You don't want to eclipse your faculty of doubt because the sleep of reason lets monsters in. Neither do you want to plunge into fully fledged skepticism and atheism if you have had experiences you cannot adequately explain. You don't want dry periods. But then again, you don't want to spend so much energy and time invested in meditation if the experiences just aren't simply coming.
What is the answer? |
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standingstone
USA
25 Posts |
Posted - Oct 28 2009 : 12:36:43 PM
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yes our expectations do count. I think to sustain a meditation practice on a daily basis you have to bypass the critical factor of the conscious mind to some extent, at least at first, in order to establish a habitual workable depth and clarity.
As far as the dreaded H word goes, there's no escaping hypnosis. It's just an increase in the threshold of suggestibility, nothing more, nothing less. people have a regular level of suggestibility that fluctuates many times a day with the ultradian rhythms and the natural trance cycle, and we call the increased level hypnosis, but suggestibility is always there to some degree.
Therefore you are already in hypnosis giving your self suggestions like "after practicing nothing happens." You're probably so full of suggestions and expectations about what you will experience based on selective thinking about yourself and how the world works or even how god is, that these suggestions can get reinforced when you sit down to meditate.
repeatedly reinforcing the effects of suggestion is known to hypnotists as compounding. So you might as well embrace it.
embracing the fact in this case might entail examining the mind and really noticing the suggestions, beliefs and expectations that are already in place as evidenced by thoughts, feelings, sensations etc. would be interesting at the very least. maybe eventually you could experience a reality totally free from expectation.
Im pretty sure it's been said the key to unconditional love is to have no expectations. But is that also an expectation?
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Christi
United Kingdom
4429 Posts |
Posted - Oct 28 2009 : 1:30:19 PM
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Hi Gumpi,
It's good to expect results from your spiritual practice, after all, why else would you practice. Expect miracles on a daily basis.
Do you have a regular set of spiritual practices that you do every day or twice a day and if so what are they?
If you don't practice daily, how often do you practice, and what do you do? |
Edited by - Christi on Oct 28 2009 1:32:00 PM |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Oct 28 2009 : 3:08:18 PM
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Expectation is for the Ego. This means that you are selfish in your approach to Yoga. Try to be selfless in this, do the meditation not for yourself but only for others.
You get no reward by helping yourself just a short moment of happiness. If you create this need in yourself you create the means for you to suffer.
Meditate to improve everyone elses lot in life.
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gumpi
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
Posted - Oct 28 2009 : 3:28:20 PM
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| SO already there are 2 posts saying that expectation is bad or somehow inadequate, and one post saying i should expect everything. |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4429 Posts |
Posted - Oct 28 2009 : 3:38:13 PM
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Hi Gumpi,
quote:
SO already there are 2 posts saying that expectation is bad or somehow inadequate, and one post saying i should expect everything.
Not everything, just miracles on a daily basis. 
If you aren't getting anywhere with your practices, it could well have a lot more to do with what you are actually doing, and a lot less to do with what you are expecting.
So I'll ask the question again:
Do you have a regular set of spiritual practices that you do every day or twice a day and if so what are they?
If you don't practice daily, how often do you practice, and what do you do?
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gumpi
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
Posted - Oct 28 2009 : 3:45:35 PM
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standingstone,
With all due respect, i think it is wrong to suggest that there are non-hypnotizable people and that everybody is subject to hypnosis because of rhythms of nature. Lots of people sleep during the day and work at night.
Again, i didn't say "nothing happens" when i meditate. I simply asked what are people to do if they have expectations.
I don't have beliefs, expectations and what not when i meditate except for endeavouring to experience something out of the ordinary. If this is wrong somehow i want to know why. I am not interested in platitudes about personal failures.
Unconditional love is something that occurs when relationships occur. That is, you love because you know. Nobody knows God. And when they claim to know God, i want evidence. At least, i want some kind of experience or description of what the conditions for knowing God are. If no such thing exists, i conclude that there is no such thing as God because it makes no difference to experiences either way. |
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gumpi
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
Posted - Oct 28 2009 : 3:50:07 PM
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I don't think it matters what i practice or don't practice. You may say it does matter, but then you would also have to claim that people who don't practice AYP or similar things or ANYTHING else are somehow doing something wrong. I don't agree with that assessment.
On the other hand, if you just mean do i practice anything at all, the answer is yes, i do. I meditate. What else needs to be known? I have meditated a lot for nearly 9 years. I'm sorry, but i have not got an answer to my question. |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4429 Posts |
Posted - Oct 28 2009 : 4:06:57 PM
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Hi Gumpi,
quote:
I don't think it matters what i practice or don't practice. You may say it does matter, but then you would also have to claim that people who don't practice AYP or similar things or ANYTHING else are somehow doing something wrong. I don't agree with that assessment.
I wouldn't say that anyone is doing anything wrong. But if someone is finding that they are getting very little result from their spiritual practices, then the first question would be, what are those spiritual practices?
quote:
What bugs me is after practisings nothing happens. Then i start to feel skeptical and go into periods of disbelief etc.
quote:
You don't want dry periods. But then again, you don't want to spend so much energy and time invested in meditation if the experiences just aren't simply coming.
quote:
I meditate.
Thanks for clarifying about your spiritual practices. It isn't always possible to get answers which will feel 100 percent satisfying to the rational mind. This is because it is the nature of the rational mind to doubt and to divide. It is only spiritual practice which takes us beyond the rational, discursive mind. The extent to which it does that, depends very much on the practices we do, and on how we do them.
You may find it helpful to add spinal breathing pranayama to your practice. It kind of takes spiritual practice to a whole new level.
You also may find this lesson useful:
http://www.aypsite.org/366.html
All the best.
Christi |
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gumpi
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
Posted - Oct 28 2009 : 4:19:11 PM
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| I have to disagree that the rational mind is necessarily a "bad" thing. After all, if you claim to know God, you should be able to prove it. |
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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
Posted - Oct 28 2009 : 5:38:05 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by gumpi
SO already there are 2 posts saying that expectation is bad or somehow inadequate, and one post saying i should expect everything.
Gumpi
Expectation is neither bad or inadequate, these are your own words. This is your expectation, does it make you feel good to have it ? That is your answer.
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gumpi
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
Posted - Oct 28 2009 : 6:48:16 PM
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| i should have put "bad" and "inadequate" in quotation marks. |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Oct 28 2009 : 8:08:49 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by gumpi
I have to disagree that the rational mind is necessarily a "bad" thing. After all, if you claim to know God, you should be able to prove it.
Hi Gumpi,
You're trying to understand the unlimited (God) using the limited (thinking, reason, proof).
Reality doesn't work that way, and no amount of "shoulding" will make it so.
You doubt the nature of AYP practice results, because you haven't experienced them.
I'm guessing that the crux of the reason you haven't experienced them, is that you haven't followed the minimum recommended practice guidelines (2 daily sessions, of 20-30 min. each, involving both spinal breathing and deep meditation).
Your practices don't have to be identical to AYP ... it's just that consistent daily practice, the amount of daily session time, and the general mix of practices ... have all been proven to yield significant results ... and for quite a few people, now.
It's like this:
Yes, it's pertinent to have expectations of attaining certain benefits from a physical exercise program.
No, it's not pertinent to exercise inconsistently, or by structuring your own program ... and have expectation of attaining certain benefits from a physical exercise program.
Meditation and yoga are identical ... and every bit as replicable.
It's very simple .... just as with exercise:
Results are experienced by following, not by fighting.
And, by the way ... for what it's worth: consistent daily practices really do seem to be the key as to why you're not getting results. We've (as a forum group) had discussions in the past about chemical intake, lifestyle, etc. ... and the detrimental effects those things can have.
HOWEVER (and it's a BIG however) .... we've seen a few people now, who have some decidedly non-yogic habits (according to yogic tradition, I mean), in one way or another, including chemical intake ... and who have still experienced good results from practices.
And so, Point Being: if you'll just practice daily, per AYP guidelines for a few months .... and truly do that .... it's virtually guaranteed that you'll stop circling back to this kind of doubt and argument, even if you don't make some of the "lifestyle changes" we've all discussed in the past.
There are two reasons for this:
1. You'll experience the benefits that those of us with good practice results talk about, directly --- as opposed to trying to understand them "from the outside", with limited thinking mind ... which simply doesn't work, and isn't possible; the infinity of subjective formlessness (aka your true nature, aka the benefits of yoga practice) can't be known via the limitation of objective form (aka thinking mind).
2. You'll experience inner silence, and, as a result of that silence, the power *of* thinking mind to pull you back in to the noise of all that thinking and mental conflict ... will reduce greatly; you'll feel some distance from it .... and that alone will make a world of difference for you.
Intending you all possible success with yoga and meditation ...
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
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machart
USA
342 Posts |
Posted - Oct 28 2009 : 9:05:35 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
HOWEVER (and it's a BIG however) .... we've seen a few people now, who have some decidedly non-yogic habits (according to yogic tradition, I mean), in one way or another, including chemical intake ... and who have still experienced good results from practices.
Wholeheartedly,
Kirtanman
The K-man is absolutely correct!
I drink alcohol moderately, smoke cigars once in a while and have coffee (with caffiene) every morning (my worst vice)...and most importantly have sex with my wife as often as possible! All very non-yogic....according to some....
But I can attest to the efficacy of the AYP practices which I have added to my hatha practice in the last 1.5 years.
You don't have to be a monk to reap the benefits of AYP!
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - Oct 28 2009 : 9:34:41 PM
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| "Let go of the past, let go of the future, let go of the present, and cross over to the farther shore of existence. With mind wholly liberated, you shall come no more to birth and death." Dhammapada |
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littlejerry
USA
60 Posts |
Posted - Oct 28 2009 : 10:29:29 PM
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hey everyone,
Expectations.... theres a difference between just thoughts and expectations i think expectations have a feeling involved with them. Now... thinking about different possibilities is a good solution to counter acting expectations, with expectations comes to violent of a rollercoaster for me... so i think of different possibilities for what i'm doing. For example lets say your going on a date with someone (this is the easiest for me) there are so many possibilities of what could happen with you and this person that well now that i'm thinking about it its not worth thinking about possibilities... i'm not to the point of doing that yet though... thinking about the possibilities helps me be "ready" for what happens.
Well hope everyone is doing well
littejerry |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4429 Posts |
Posted - Oct 29 2009 : 05:08:29 AM
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Hi Gumpi,
quote:
I have to disagree that the rational mind is necessarily a "bad" thing.
Again:
I didn't say that the rational mind was a bad thing. That's your word. I said that it was the nature of the rational mind to doubt and divide. The rational mind can actually be a very useful tool, if we are able to use it properly. This is why they sometimes say that the mind is a good servant, but a poor master.
The rational mind is not always a useful tool when it comes to liberation. This is because liberation is about unity, not division, and about certainty, and not doubt. So in meditation practice we are continually learning to put the discursive mind aside in order to come to know the true nature of mind beyond the limited rational mind.
When this bigger picture is entered, we can pick up the rational mind as and when it is needed, without it having to dominate our life.
quote:
After all, if you claim to know God, you should be able to prove it.
Nobody needs to prove the existence of God. Everyone needs to find God in their own hearts.
All the best.
Christi
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Akasha
421 Posts |
Posted - Nov 07 2009 : 7:43:06 PM
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Hi Gumpi,
You might want to consider adding on more practices, while observing self-pacing.
As someone on the under-sensitive end of the bell-curve who has taken on additional practices having taken on YMK & Samyama, (the latter of which i was unsure as to the efficacy) i might as easily slip over to the over-sensitive end.
So my practice looks a little like this:-
-Sit in a seat or in siddashana
-Engage the breath using the full yogic breath , ujjayyi breathing, in an easy fashion.
- Start with SbP-10 mins or more
-Yoni Mudra Kumbhaka with chin pump-3 or 4 rounds
--ease back into gentle breathing
-_Introduce the mantra--i.e Deep meditation(sreee sree iam iam)
-Do samyama- the last two sutras have found useful -inner senuuality( like a hollow body meditation) and akasha
And add on a few folk - pretty much anyone here who needs it,sounds like they might be suffering etc
-Rest easy for a few mins
Stopped lying down so much depending on the openings as don't feel so tired coming out of the turiya deep trance state. Might have an eye-patch.
Have found delayed effects with YMK specifically crown activity a few days later after regular practice. You see i am sill trying to navigate the meaning of self-pacing, seeing as i've become a little more agressive.
As some one with a disturbance in the energy body i've found sitting in siddhasana tricky, so you can place an pbject under the perimeum to stimualte the root, and the brain. Foocus on the whole groin.In my case my leftleg felt denser,less hollow.
Be carfeul not to favour areas of the body relating to areas of the brain that are more dominant over areas of the body relating to areas of the brain-gross and subtle , that are dormant.
So on the inhalee with SBP- this might be useful to one of Iced Earth's posts- be aware of the whole groin especially if you have a tight leg,one more than the other, as there nerve plexuses runninig from the root/perimuem end of the spinal nerve( sacral plexus) into the fold at the groin into the leg(s). Does that leg feel less hollow,more dense(=>less awake)?
Then we ride the spinal nerve with the breath,engaging mulabandha and and sambhavi mudra ,if you are ready for that. Sambhavi mudra and kumbhaka are both powerful stimulators of ecstatic conductivity/kundalini, the latter often has delayed effects if employed consistently. In that case i have chosen to back off practice or just employ the 2 core practices.
As i say, i am still tryiing to navigate the meaning of self-pacing since becoming more agressive with additional practices.
Although i am usually very cautious about yoga practices having learnt the hard way, you could say, a few years ago,i am tending to use a bigger plate less often which may not be a good thing but this ispartly becuase i am still trying to navigate a self-pacing strategy.I tend to back right off when i get an openiing whch is becoming quite common. So i may not even practice for a few days.Like twiddling my thumbs kinda thing, i think i've got plenty of bhakti, and life is alirght to me just now. I feel i've got a better handle on SBP with the full array of mudras and bhandas although i have'nt quite mastered it yet.For someone with probably an under-senstive nervous sytem which you might have, i like to draw on any help i can get.
quote:
the sleep of reason lets monsters in.
 Sounds like Goya;he liked to talk about/portray the wretched(those in interminable suffering,darkness etc).
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Nov 08 2009 : 08:49:54 AM
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Asanas can be a good practice to add if you have a lot of emotional background. For some reason I have an aversion to asanas, and have started bridges and stretches practiced by contortionists, but even they say what they do is very close to asanas.
These kind of exercises release stored emotions like crazy. For me it isn't immediate; it happens off and on for hours after the stretches.
It is my belief that release of these emotions is part of the purification of the nervous system.
After a few weeks of this I have noticed spontaneous stopping of thoughts and complete loss of attachment without having to make any effort. |
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Patrick333
USA
2 Posts |
Posted - Nov 11 2009 : 9:10:51 PM
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| I agree with Karl. |
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Expectations
