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lucilledweck
United Kingdom
9 Posts |
 Posted - Sep 29 2009 : 11:26:20 AM
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Its been bothering me for a while. Patanjali's yoga sutras gives us a format /structure for yoga which interestingly describes a series of stages of practices without being too specific as what they are. Generally most yoga I come across ignore the specific stages.
There are no practices described for the Yamma and Niyamma purifications. Asana is described as a state of mind rather than a practice. Where do the asana practices come from?
Pranayama is described as slowing the flow of prana in the body. We tend to take it as meaning the breath, but prana coming in to the body could also be food for example, so where do the practices we use come from?
If Patanjali very clearly states the format should be done in stages how do we know that the practices we do, (doing several stages at once), although affective, does not produce a very watered down affect,and that we may be missing something fundamental.
Who changed the rules? |
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yogani
USA
5242 Posts |
Posted - Sep 29 2009 : 12:43:10 PM
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Hi Lucilledweck:
As with all human knowledge, practical spiritual methods have evolved over the centuries, and they continue to evolve.
This lesson was just posted, which might add some perspective:
http://www.aypsite.org/364.html
How's that for timing? 
The guru is in you.
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Sep 29 2009 : 12:50:09 PM
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Hi Lucilledweck and welcome to the forum.
Patanjali was not the inventor of Yoga, although many think he was. He was an amazing guy, and he codified a system of Yoga called "Ashtanga Yoga" which was around before his time, and which he practiced. Yoga itself is a lot older than Ashtanga Yoga, and it's roots are reflected in the Vedas and the Upanishads. It may well be even older than these.
The Yammas are the avoidances, so they are simply things to try to refrain from doing, like killing people. The Niyamas are things to try to do and they do include specific practices, such as the cleansing practices: kapalbhati, basti etc.
Asana literally means seat, and in the old days it simply meant that. The asana is also the thing you sit on, as well as the posture you sit in. By extention it could also mean the posture held by the body (sitting or standing).
Some pranayama practices involve slowing the breath whereas others involve speeding it up such as bastrika. Pranayama doesn't so much slow the flow of prana in the body, as increase it and extend it. One of the meanings of the word "ayama" is to extend, so prana + ayama =pranayama, to extend the flow of prana in the body.
As for where the practices come from, Yoga has been evolving since the beginning, and practices have been added and changed throughout history by the practitioners themselves. If something new works better than the old, then the new is included and the old is discarded. These are quite exiting times because Yoga is evolving faster now than at any time in the past. Pretty much all the Yoga teachers I know teach Yoga in stages of development, and here in AYP the same is done. If you follow the lessons through carefully you will see how the progression works, with some practices being taken on later than others. Some practices cannot be taken on at all for quite some time, until certain pre-requisites have been met.
So in short, nobody has changed the rules, and everybody has. We are all part of the evolution of Yoga, as well as the beneficiaries of it.
Christi |
Edited by - Christi on Sep 29 2009 12:55:49 PM |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Sep 29 2009 : 12:56:33 PM
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Hi Yogani,
We cross posted. |
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yogani
USA
5242 Posts |
Posted - Sep 29 2009 : 1:34:44 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Christi
Hi Yogani,
We cross posted.
Excellent reply.
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manig
India
88 Posts |
Posted - Sep 29 2009 : 2:20:56 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by lucilledweck
Where do the asana practices come from?
When you are happy.. why your lips take form of a smile?
When you are sad.. why your face becomes dull?
Its the expression of your inner. Its done automatically!!!
During meditation, Patanjali and sages before him had changes in their inner being that was also expressed in their physical being in the form of asanas/postures/mudras.
Patanjali thought why can't if the inner changes bring outer changes in the body... the reverse can also be done. By doing those postures, inner changes can also be brought.
I remember in a book Osho said... if you go in a room and shout loudly YES!! you will feel a change in your inner being.. a sense of strength.
Similarly if you say loudly NO!!... you will feel down. |
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lucilledweck
United Kingdom
9 Posts |
Posted - Sep 29 2009 : 3:32:22 PM
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Thank you for your replies.
I do take on board that the practices are evolving.
Also of course I understand the Yammas are avoidances which If you take on board become much more difficult than say not killing someone. How does someone not harm,or not receive when even using this forum is a type of receiving that could incur a psychological debt (just look at the thank you page), or not steal when even wasting time at work could be seen as a form of stealing. Maybe I haven't given you the best examples but I'm sure you can understand what I mean.
Yes, when I posted my note I did afterwards think of the specific practices given for the cleansing practices.
What I was referring to was the idea that the purifying practices generally help you with your progress with the Yammas and Niyammas.
I have heard many times that asana means a seat and yes somehow that has come to mean the asanas we all know and love.
I know that the sun salutation comes from a tantric practice, I was wondering if anything more specific was known about the asanas. I know there are different categories of asana such as true asana, classic,geometric that have been developed through the centuries and are still being developed
I have heard that the asanas developed from tantric practices I wondered if anyone new any more.
As for Pranayama I looked it up in Yogasutra Patanjali by Bangali Baba Commentary of Vyasa .Chapter 2 Sutra 49.
'When posture is achieved , Breath control (Pranayama), i.e.., the separation of the movements of inspiration and expiration, takes place..........................In the separation of their movements, the cessation of them both is Pranayama (breath control).
In this version they mention breath control for Pranayama but prana is constantly flowing in and out of the body in the form of water, food, air, light,and sound. I suppose probably air was chosen as it was deemed to be most effective. I just wondered if anyone knew anything more about this.
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lucilledweck
United Kingdom
9 Posts |
Posted - Sep 29 2009 : 3:38:48 PM
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Lovely, thank you Manig.
Sometimes my brain gets very tunnel visioned and I miss the bigger picture.
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Sep 29 2009 : 4:41:50 PM
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Hi Lucilledweck,
Many Sanskrit words have many meanings. Prana for example means air, wind and breath as well as being used to describe the subtle energies that exist in all aspects of creation. Most people speaking Sanskrit a couple of thousand years ago would have used the word prana for air or breath. The second part of the word pranayama can come either from yama or from ayama. These two words have opposite meanings as the suffix "a" makes a word into the negative. The word yama means restraint or control, and the word ayama means extention or expansion. Because of the rules for joining words in Sanskrit, a word ending with an a being joined to another word beginning with an a makes a short a. So:
Prana+yama =pranayama.
and...
Prana+ayama =pranayama.
This means that the word pranayama can mean any number of things ranging from the restraint of air or breath, to the extention of subtle energy. This is why you will see different definitions given for the word in different places. One pranayama practice involves the separation of the inbreath and the outbreath by putting breath retention (khumbaka) between them. So this could be what the commentator you read was reffering to.
I have never heard the term pranayama used to refer to the act of fasting (for example). I think you are right, that the air was chosen because of it's effectiveness. There is a very close connection between the movement of the breath, and the movement of prana in the body; much closer than the connection between prana and food or sunlight.
Christi |
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brother neil
USA
752 Posts |
Posted - Sep 29 2009 : 9:28:13 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by lucilledweck
Lovely, thank you Manig.
Sometimes my brain gets very tunnel visioned and I miss the bigger picture.
tunnel vision is also called concentration, a very important limb in yoga 
brother Neil
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lucilledweck
United Kingdom
9 Posts |
Posted - Sep 30 2009 : 12:39:33 PM
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I appreciate your positive viewpoint Brother Neil.
Thank you Christi for your thoughts.
I suppose my question is a little academic...................
I'm not sure how useful it is. |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Sep 30 2009 : 1:22:57 PM
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Hi Lucilledweck,
quote:
Thank you Christi for your thoughts.
I suppose my question is a little academic...................
I'm not sure how useful it is.
Sorry, was that a bit technical? 
Christi |
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brother neil
USA
752 Posts |
Posted - Sep 30 2009 : 9:40:03 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by lucilledweck
I appreciate your positive viewpoint Brother Neil.
your welcome
with love
brother Neil
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krcqimpro1
India
329 Posts |
Posted - Oct 01 2009 : 08:03:58 AM
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Hi Yogani or Christi,
Is the Dynamic Jalandhara a modified version of Thokar of Lahiri Mahasaya? Is there a video available on youtube or somewhere, showing how the Thokar is done? Christi, I read many posts of yours on the SRF practices and thought you might know. I am certain Yogani does.
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lucilledweck
United Kingdom
9 Posts |
Posted - Oct 01 2009 : 10:59:40 AM
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No Christi,
Your answer was great .
I was already aware of those definitions for Pranayama, It made me look at the nature of my question.
It was suggested to me before that Pranayama does not necessarily specify breath, and it struck me as an interesting idea.
I feel sure that the practices we do have their roots in other disciplines such as Tantra, and my question was about that really.
But I did subsequently think that it really doesn't matter where they come from.
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Oct 01 2009 : 2:28:04 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by krcqimpro1
Hi Yogani or Christi,
Is the Dynamic Jalandhara a modified version of Thokar of Lahiri Mahasaya? Is there a video available on youtube or somewhere, showing how the Thokar is done? Christi, I read many posts of yours on the SRF practices and thought you might know. I am certain Yogani does.
Hi krc,
I'm afraid I have no idea. I have never studied under the SRF, so all I know about their practices is what I have heard from Kriyabans.
Christi |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Oct 01 2009 : 2:39:50 PM
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Hi Krish....
You may want to read through this thread here: http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....OPIC_ID=1845
specifically this post here:
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....D=1845#23763
I think the main difference (although there are several subtle ones) between Thokar and AYP Chin Pump is that Chin Pump utilizes a "top end/full breath" kumbhaka. I could be mistaken and there may be a stage of Thokar that includes a kumbhaka, but from my (albiet very limited) understanding of Thokar is that it is practiced without any breath retention.
Hope this helps.
Love,
Carson |
Edited by - CarsonZi on Oct 01 2009 2:40:51 PM |
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Yonatan
Israel
849 Posts |
Posted - Oct 03 2009 : 1:36:00 PM
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Hi, yesterday a question or a doubt popped up in my mind, which has prevented me from going deep into meditation today. The question is: where did the Samyama practice done here in AYP come from originally? I looked on the internet for this practice of picking up a faint thought or idea and dropping it into silence and haven't found anything, some sources state that samyama is focusing on an object until it leads to absorption into it and knowledge. Is it an ancient practice done by sages of the past? I know it works and purifies from trying it (sometimes leading to overload).. I just want to know where this specific practice came from..
Thanks for your help
Yonatan |
Edited by - Yonatan on Oct 03 2009 1:46:20 PM |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Oct 03 2009 : 1:49:30 PM
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Hi Yonatan,
All I know about this practice is that it was brough to the West by Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, and it was taught to him by his teacher. How far back it goes beyond that I don't know.
Christi |
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Yonatan
Israel
849 Posts |
Posted - Oct 03 2009 : 1:57:05 PM
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| Thanks Christi |
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brother neil
USA
752 Posts |
Posted - Oct 04 2009 : 4:43:20 PM
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actually I think they were etched in stone on meteors sent out from the sun, but I could be wrong
brother Neil
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Where do the practices come from
