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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
 Posted - Sep 08 2009 : 1:24:38 PM
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Namaste Friends.....
So....
How important is it to you to stop labeling/defining/narrating Life and to start experiencing it without all the mind-chatter? I have come to the realization that I have a habit of "narrating" life as I go about my day. An example could be....walking around the offleash dog park letting my dogs (and I) get a little exercise when I notice that I am narrating my experience to myself instead of just experiencing it. I will be saying to myself things like, "Oh, the sun is so warm, I just love walking around in the sunshine" instead of just enjoying the warmth of the sun and the fact that I am capable of enjoying it right now. Does anyone else have difficulties with this? I have personally gotten to a point where I am basically conscious of my thoughts most of the day now, and I don't attach to (or believe) many of these thoughts, but I still find myself narrating my experiences to myself. I know that doing this is pointless, and I can see that it is not these thoughts that make up reality but instead my experience regardless of these thoughts that makes up reality, but I still am having difficulty dropping this habit of narrating my life as I live it. I'm sure that this will drop of itself in the future, but I am wondering if anyone out there has any specific practices or techniques they would like to share that may help me start to end this habit of nearly constant narration. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks and Love to All!
Love,
Carson |
Edited by - CarsonZi on Sep 08 2009 1:27:15 PM |
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christiane
Lebanon
319 Posts |
Posted - Sep 08 2009 : 2:01:26 PM
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Hi Carson
not much to say except: start with simple things!
It's starting to happen with me and the first time was under the shower: the immediate feeling of the freshness of the water on my skincame by itself, then I noticed that for the first time, I had a direct feeling, with full consciousness, with no thought in the mind at THAT moment.. It was very pleasurable, as if the fresh feeling was experienced for the very first time!
I'm also impatient to see this "labeling" thing drop with time..
(as well as my impatience!)
Love |
Edited by - christiane on Sep 08 2009 2:03:00 PM |
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yogani
USA
5242 Posts |
Posted - Sep 08 2009 : 2:08:25 PM
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Hi Carson:
There is nothing wrong with narrating if that is what happens. I'm a pretty good narrator myself. Let's see, now there is typing, now there is sending, now it is off for a walk -- doop-de-doop.
The fact that you are questioning all this simply means you are moving beyond it already. No need to dive back in to manage it all. That sort of defeats the purpose, doesn't it? It is just the opposite. You can let it go as it likes. What has it got to do with your witness, your Self?
Your activities, outer or inner, don't have to change one iota, though they might. Whether or not they change isn't anything you have to be judging, or supervising, though it might seem like you are.
In the end it will all still be happening, and it will be okay. We gradually learn to be "in it but not of it." The "it" will not necessarily change.
We are finding our existence to be the depth of the ocean. Just because the ocean realizes itself does not mean the waves on the surface will suddenly be doing something different or going away. Of course, as the ocean radiates, there will be that divine outflow for the betterment of all. So the waves will tend to line up for evolutionary purposes. Then the narration becomes interesting, kind of like watching a cool movie. That guy who keeps narrating and questioning what is happening is part of the movie too. Relax and enjoy the show. 
The guru is in you.
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Sep 08 2009 : 2:29:03 PM
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Hi Christiane, Yogani, thank you both for your input!
I guess the difficulty isn't so much with the narration itself, but more with what the narration entails. Meaning, the narration often includes judgments about the moment, about how I feel about the moment, or just plain judgements in general...whether they are outright stated (to myself) or just implied. Take my example in the original post....I may not be outright saying "this moment is great!", but I am definitely implying that, and this is what I am trying to get away from I think. With the habit of narration comes the habit of judging things, at least for me. I guess your advice applies either way Yogani, but I just wanted to clarify that it isn't the narration that is the problem persay, it is the judgements that are imbedded in the narration that are. Thanks for the advice.
Love,
Carson |
Edited by - CarsonZi on Sep 08 2009 2:30:33 PM |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Sep 08 2009 : 2:59:48 PM
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Hi Carson
Thanks for sharing
Opinions about the moment and the objects filling it...you know how..when you sit behind somebody on a bus...and you hear them expressing their opinions?.....It is really quite innocent, isn't it.....it's what minds do. We imagine this reference point inside.....and compare everything to that...pattern....or dot. This is quite innocent too. It just happens. Maybe the main....contraction here....is that you are judging the inner chatter as something of an obstacle? When it isn't.....because like Yogani wrote....once you see it...you are already beyond it :-)
Or like that guy Vishrant that touched heart here yesterday said:
"Be tenderly ok with whatever is happening inside yourself".
Then relaxation happens...gentleness.....and nothing is wrong 
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Ananda
3115 Posts |
Posted - Sep 08 2009 : 3:19:18 PM
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| lovely, thank you everyone |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Sep 08 2009 : 3:51:26 PM
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Hi Katrine, Ananda
quote:
Katrine said: "Opinions about the moment and the objects filling it...you know how..when you sit behind somebody on a bus...and you hear them expressing their opinions?.....It is really quite innocent, isn't it.....it's what minds do. We imagine this reference point inside.....and compare everything to that...pattern....or dot. This is quite innocent too. It just happens."
Innocent? ..... Hahaha....
Yes, something similar happens here.....every moment is judged against another moment, or is compared in some way to a reference point.....I find it can be an obstacle to living in the moment....I end up living in my mind, my thoughts. Not necessarily believing my thoughts, just paying more attention to them then to my experience in this moment. I long to just BE all the time. I have experienced Unity, and I want to Be that experience, 24/7. Perhaps I need to learn more patience as Christiane suggested. Not perhaps....I do need more patience. But I can see in this moment right now, that being impatient is indicitive of something being "wrong" with how things are right now....and if all things are as they "should" be all the time, then it is just a matter of perspective shifting in order to realize this. Be easy with it. I don't know what this means, it just came out. Anyways..... ...answering my own questions here
quote:
Katrine wrote: "Maybe the main....contraction here....is that you are judging the inner chatter as something of an obstacle? When it isn't.....because like Yogani wrote....once you see it...you are already beyond it :-)"
Hahaha....yes of course. Stop judging the judging and see things for what they are.....perfect
Thanks guys....you are the best sounding board(s) out there
Love,
Carson
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Edited by - CarsonZi on Sep 08 2009 3:52:09 PM |
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miguel
Spain
1197 Posts |
Posted - Sep 08 2009 : 6:06:10 PM
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Hi Carson and al the people here.
I think this tool will help to keep you in the now. With this tool developed by shanti you can use your own narrations-toughts like fire for the practice.The more you practice,the more you "get in to the now".
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....OPIC_ID=3489
I use to practice it sometimes and its very useful for keep my self in the now.You only must dissolve your mental voice in the inner silence.
Powerful tool,dont forget to self pace.
Hope it helps.
And another one:
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....OPIC_ID=4351
I love the first one,much more than the second one.
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Edited by - miguel on Sep 08 2009 6:21:01 PM |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Sep 09 2009 : 05:28:46 AM
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Hi Carson
quote:
Not necessarily believing my thoughts, just paying more attention to them then to my experience in this moment. I long to just BE all the time. I have experienced Unity, and I want to Be that experience, 24/7.
Yes......I am very, very familiar with this longing Carson.....it is my whole life. It has gone from longing to BE....and more and more love for God......and then....as the reality of the nothingness of existence unveils itself...... this longing to BE has gradually over the years transformed into more and more longing NOT to be. Because it became more and more evident that all I was....was in the way. But even this longing NOT to be has to be transcended.....Because - after all - I am. And if I resist the fact of the conceitedness and the selfishness inside here....then this very resistance keeps it "alive".......And the longing to BE is so strong....so it can also "push away" what is in the process....and this doesn't work.
So that is why loving kindness...patience.... is so crucial.
In order to bear the inner weakness that wants other things than God (which is always "something else" than what is happening right now)....in order to bear this inside oneself.......a lot of loving kindness is needed. Especially when one has matured to a point when one is aware of the workings of it. And "the world" does not offer loving kindness.....only heart offers it. And it is a silent offer.....yet it offers it all the time. All the time heart loves us....
I forget this again and again when I am in the way. I can't hear it then......
The world on the other hand....it offers plenty of opportunities to be exposed as nothing.......so if one can only listen .....then....if there is inner openness....then the loving kindness will come from inside yourself and you stay in this kindness....and let it embrace and melt the "unwantedness" into itself.
Then loving kindness is all there is....and the world starts to shine with it. The depth of the shine unveils itself then....as Love.
Since I am always deaf in the "tension point"...(and I am always in such a point....the place where growth happens...the place inside where I am not alligned to what I am in essence).....it is such a blessing that there are a few rare people who both love and know me...and are not afraid to say what is the fact of any conceitedness and selfishness inside. My childeren f.ex....and my true friends. To be in the company of those who can both point out the inner weakness when I am blind to it, and at the same time accept it with loving kindness so that more and more of the fear of being exposed uncontracts every time a new opening is on its way......well .......these people are like a guru here. This is the Satguru. Those people....they may unleash the pain of the unwantedness inside....like your inner guru feeling the pain of noticing that you are listening more to the chatter than the facticity permeating it....but this pain....if it is accepted.... embraced......the love of this gentle holding will melt it into itself.
And therefore I do not shun life and its attachments....even though it hurts. It turns out that it is not necessary to let go of things.....only the attachment to them So your chatter....it can stay. Just let it be as it is. And don't let it fool you into thinking that something is wrong
Through deep meditation and the other practices.....one becomes less and less dependent on the loving kindness in other people...and more and more able to allow it within oneself. And something magic happens......more and more people that are expressing loving kindness starts to pop up around onself.....or so it seems here....it's a mystery, no?
So...as well as love is the inner guru..as such...pain is also the inner guru. The yearning is itself God:
The yearning is itself God
But without the ability to perceive the love....it is hard to release the yearning....it needs something to die into.....
And Love is Silence.....and the practice of Deep Meditation is all about establishing this to a greater and greater extent inside.
And then Samyama can happen all over the place.....
We are so much the same....all of us. That is why I say that it is innocent. We don't know! We only think we do.....and when this is seen inside oneself.......everything becomes innocent.....in the accepting that I don't know......openness can stay open.....even when it hurts.
Gosh....such a long post.....to say so little....
I am very grateful for your chatter and your openness |
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Yonatan
Israel
849 Posts |
Posted - Sep 09 2009 : 07:36:27 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Katrine
I am very grateful for your chatter and your openness
I am to yours.. [img]icon_heart.gif[/img] |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Sep 09 2009 : 07:52:53 AM
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Sep 09 2009 : 08:04:46 AM
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Awesome replies by everyone here. Thanks.
Carson,
In my experience, the chatter does not stop.. at least it hasn't here... but the attachment and judgement of the chatter is less and less and less. Before practices.. it's like your mind has a 100 acres filled with thoughts. When you start meditation, the 100 acre increases to maybe 200 acres with 100 acres of thoughts and 100 acres of silence. As you keep going, you experience your mind as 100,000 acres with 100 acres of thoughts. The 100 acres of thoughts stays there always, that is what the mind does.. but the silence increases and so the thoughts seem like a tiny spec in that vast silence.
I waited for a long time for the mind to stop the chatter.. but clearly it has no plans of stopping.. and the harder I try, the more frustrated I get and the stronger the focus on the mind chatter. One thing that did help was the dropping technique (the one Miguel referred to above).. when you realize you are thinking, drop the thought, don't give it a logical end, don't give it any explanations or importance by saying "I have to get this chatter to stop".. chatter.. drop.. chatter.. drop again... so on. But then again, self pace this practice too... I know I OD'ed on it. This technique is not for thoughts that need self inquiry. But random (at times annoying) thoughts that surface all day long and take up so much on our energy... like "Oh, the sun is so warm, I just love walking around in the sunshine. I don't get why I have to tell myself I am enjoying the walk. Why does my mind need to tell me what I am already experiencing. Why? Why? Why?" or "Let's see, now there is typing, now there is sending, now it is off for a walk -- doop-de-doop. What is doop-de-doop? Why not doop-di-doop or doop-da-doop? hmmm.... Here I go again.. my mind has to tell me what I already know I am doing. Shut Up mind!!!".. when you realize you are thinking the thought.. just drop.. stop thinking the thought. |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Sep 09 2009 : 12:07:31 PM
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Hi Miguel, Katrine, Yonatan, Shanti and All
Thank you all for the wonderful advice and contributions....so lucky to have this community to bounce things off of.....much gratitude to everyone who contributes and to Yogani for giving us this venue.
@Miguel....thank you for reminding me about this practice of Shanti's....it is a great one isn't it.....I do something similar most of the day, although it is probably not as "structured". I try to be mindful all day long.....I observe my thoughts as they arise, and I let go of them as I notice them....I try not to "entertain" thoughts anymore...I have identified that this is a very real source of suffering for me, so I am pretty diligent about dropping thoughts as they arise. This is in general though....there are still many times throughout the day where I will "lose awareness" and begin to get caught up in thought. But I find that if I don't really make a "practice" out of it, I don't really need to "pace". I am easy with this "practice" and try not to be too forceful....I think when Yogani uses phrases like; "gently favor", he is very wise....."gently favoring" is vital IME. Forceful application of just about any practice is often more harmful then good in the long run IME. Just my experience though and YMMV (your milage may vary)
@Katrine.........thank you for your wonderful sharing (as always)...there is always so much loving wisdom in your posts....i feel it strongly these days. Thank you.
quote:
this longing to BE has gradually over the years transformed into more and more longing NOT to be
In Buddhism (I am always reluctant to talk about the B word on AYP as there are so many practitioners here who know so much more then I do), at least the way I understand it, the Second Noble Truth states that there is an origin of suffering and that the origin of suffering is attachment to the three kinds of desire: desire for sense pleasure (kama tanha), desire to become (bhava tanha) and desire to get rid of (vibhava tanha). My desire has been to "become", as was yours at least for a while...then it transformed into the desire "to get rid of", or "NOT to be". These desires are still rooted in suffering. Time for me to let go of this desire in favor of......Love? Not sure what I should "gently favor" over the desire to "Be".....(likely "thinking" too much again)
quote:
in order to bear this inside oneself.......a lot of loving kindness is needed......And "the world" does not offer loving kindness.....only heart offers it.
Yes, wise words indeed....no one can Love someone who does not Love themselves....it just isn't received until Love is felt from within. Truly an obstacle for many (myself included) in Western society....the idea that we are "flawed" from birth is so imbedded in our minds that it can be hard to shake....and often when you think you have shaken it, it reappears in an area you thought was totally "cleared". At least that is the way it has been happening here.
quote:
it is such a blessing that there are a few rare people who both love and know me...and are not afraid to say what is the fact of any conceitedness and selfishness inside.
You've read "Real Love" right? Absolutely a blessing to have "wise friends" who can see you for who you are, and love you unconditionally regardless. Even having just one of these "wise friends" can radically change one's life. I have several now and my life is exponentially different for it.... *bowing in humble gratitude*
quote:
So...as well as love is the inner guru..as such...pain is also the inner guru. The yearning is itself God.
Yes, so true....all of Life is the guru....if you let it. Just be open and listen as all the answers, all the directions, all the instructions are being given every moment of every day.....just need to be open enough to receive it....thank you
@Shanti....
quote:
Before practices.. it's like your mind has a 100 acres filled with thoughts. When you start meditation, the 100 acre increases to maybe 200 acres with 100 acres of thoughts and 100 acres of silence. As you keep going, you experience your mind as 100,000 acres with 100 acres of thoughts. The 100 acres of thoughts stays there always, that is what the mind does.. but the silence increases and so the thoughts seem like a tiny spec in that vast silence.
I LOVE this analogy Shanti!! If it's ok, I might steal it and use it myself occasionally....it just fits so perfectly
What you are describing is actually my experience as well, despite how this thread may make it seem.....when I think back on the past, especially on my "state of mind", I remember that I used to complain of being "hyper-aware", or seeing and noticing everything, and that the people around me were "sleeping" and didn't notice Life as it past them by....I found this extremely frustrating (this caused a huge portion of my "angry personality") and used to mull over it in my mind all day long...I used to be thinking about a thousand different things at the same time and used to believe every thought I had was "Truth", especially that I was infinitely more intelligent then every person around me. NOW, my mind state is MUCH different....I have SPACE in my mind....I have a Silent Core. I used to be unable to deal with even relative silence. I used to have to sleep with music or tv on....I could not be in my car without the stereo playing, always had to have multiple distractions because the Silence was deafening (and insanity provoking) back then. Wow....when thinking back on the way things were, I can see that there has been incredible amounts of progress made, and I should really stop complaining already....I am lucky to be where I am right now, and if the past year and a half or so is any indication of what the next while is going to be like, then......, all is well.
Anyways, thank you everyone for helping me to put this into perspective.....I feel much better about things right now. Thank you
Now, off for a walk, doop-de-doop
Love,
Carson |
Edited by - CarsonZi on Sep 09 2009 12:16:06 PM |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Sep 09 2009 : 12:48:39 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
@Shanti....
quote:
Before practices.. it's like your mind has a 100 acres filled with thoughts. When you start meditation, the 100 acre increases to maybe 200 acres with 100 acres of thoughts and 100 acres of silence. As you keep going, you experience your mind as 100,000 acres with 100 acres of thoughts. The 100 acres of thoughts stays there always, that is what the mind does.. but the silence increases and so the thoughts seem like a tiny spec in that vast silence.
I LOVE this analogy Shanti!! If it's ok, I might steal it and use it myself occasionally....it just fits so perfectly
It's not mine.. so you are welcome to steal it . This came from something similar Nithyanada said in one of his videos when he was describing his mind. |
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manig
India
88 Posts |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Sep 09 2009 : 4:03:07 PM
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Carson
quote:
Time for me to let go of this desire in favor of......Love?
Now for you to gently embrace this desire.....accept it.....so that it can be as it is. This is when you stop reacting to it....it is allowed to stay......and in this loving act....it can drop.
Much love to you. |
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miguel
Spain
1197 Posts |
Posted - Sep 09 2009 : 4:15:29 PM
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Hi Carson,
"gently favor"
I think this is a key word and factor that we never should forget.Very important.
I think we must gently favour "the change over the long term" cz its a dramatic change (in a possitive sense),and mind and thoughts are very subtle and delicate.Like a garden.It needs time and care.
ps-the same thing with all the aspects of life.This universe is very delicate but so big and powerfull at the same time.
Tke care bro and i feel happy about the progress in all aspects of your life that you talk about |
Edited by - miguel on Sep 09 2009 4:31:03 PM |
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cosmic
USA
821 Posts |
Posted - Sep 10 2009 : 6:26:22 PM
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Hey brother Carson, I can relate with the narrating of life and how annoying it can be at times. For me, the narration hasn't stopped, but it has become much less. And when it does happen, it's more okay than it was before. When I become aware of the narration, sometimes it helps to ask questions like:
Do I need this thought?
Can I BE without this thought?
Can I still act without this thought?
quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
I long to just BE all the time.
When are you NOT?
I came to accept this inner narration when I realized that it doesn't replace experience. Sometimes people (myself included) talk like "I just want to experience instead of think about it" and "I want to be fully present all the time", etc. But the narration is part of the experience. When there is narration, you are experiencing narration, on top of whatever else you're experiencing. When you're not present, you're experiencing non-presence. There is no escape from experiencing. There is no escape from BEing.
quote:
Originally posted by CarsonZi
I am always reluctant to talk about the B word on AYP as there are so many practitioners here who know so much more then I do
Let them. Nobody has a monopoly on Buddha's teachings, or on Truth. Trust your own knowing, Carsonji.
With Love
cosmic |
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littlejerry
USA
60 Posts |
Posted - Sep 14 2009 : 08:22:21 AM
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Carson,
A few things that have helped me are #1... thought labeling... you know your labeling/narrating, so its a sunny day sun feels good whatever... hum a descriptive thought on the weather. #2 A few concentrated breaths will help you to be in the "moment" helps me at least. I think when your focused on something... can be anything people see that you are focused, what i mean is when and if you concentrate on ur breath... noone will notice. Breath in breath out. And heck if you can do multiple of these might even be better. Can take away from unwanted thought processes.
no ones responded to my QUOTE topic on poetry and illuminations so i'll put my "phrase" here.
The past is a memory.
The future is a possibility.
The present is a definition. |
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littlejerry
USA
60 Posts |
Posted - Sep 14 2009 : 08:26:13 AM
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sorry,
Thought labeling... be more specific... narrating is very general... if you cant stop the thoughts then label them more specifically and with more description. Think on this while your trying to do it... "so i know i was narrating, but i'm walking my dog in the park" walking my dog in the park walking my dog in the park haha idk... taking my loved animal... one of gods creatures for a walk so he can stretch is legs enjoy the weather drain some energy so he wont be waking me up in the middle of the night bouncing off the walls.
Thanks |
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The Habit of Narrating
