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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
 Posted - Aug 03 2009 : 9:48:59 PM
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Hi All,
There's been much discussion in the forum about Advaita being "anti-practices".
In all of my relatively extensive study of Advaita, and Advaitic traditions from around the world, and as found within the mystical schools of all religions, I have yet to come across this (anti-practices attitude).
Quite the opposite, actually --- they each and all have extensive and sophisticated systems of yoga/yogic practices -- and all emphasize the utter necessity of practices, in order to realize true nature.
The one exception I've seen to this rule, is in the "neo-Advaita" which has expanded rapidly in recent years.
It seems to me that neo-Advaita is to Advaita, much as neo-Tantra is to Tantra ... a highly-altered version of the original system, which bears very little resemblance to the original, except in name only.
And so, it may be fair to say the neo-Advaita, in general, has an "anti-practices" attitude.
However, it does not seem fair or accurate to say that Advaita, or the many Advaita systems from various religions that we're discussing here, have anything but a clear, accurate and highly enthusiastic attitude regarding practices.
Ironically, the one "gap" in my knowledge is Advaita Vedanta itself - though I don't get the impression that there is, or was, an "anti-practices" attitude there.
I can say confidently, that none of the other Advaitic systems with which I am familiar (Kashmir Shaivism, non-dual Shaivism of South India, Vajrayana Buddhism, Dzogchen, non-dual schools within Taoism, Kabbalah, Sufism, mystical Christianity, Hermetic Alchemy, etc. -- have any attitude toward practices other than: they're essential -- and they work.)
I hope this is helpful.
Advaito'ham,
Kirtanman |
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porcupine
USA
193 Posts |
Posted - Aug 03 2009 : 11:11:22 PM
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| Kirtanman, beloved! how can practices have any use if dirt is the same as rain? if the sun eats my pillow in the morning, will this love poem to you be the same? |
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Ananda
3115 Posts |
Posted - Aug 04 2009 : 04:23:39 AM
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brother K all of advaita is about practice, it involves bhakti and constant inquiry (meditation on the origin of thoughts) on the source on That and either these people admit it or not they are doing practices by just being still there and dropping stuff...
but to be fair regarding what their gurus say all of that practice stuff is dropped at some point for the ego is killed or has become very transparent and nothing is remained but that and it's automatically flowing and here is the difference between someone like an advaita teacher and Yogani and here i cannot add on anything concerning leaving practices behind or not bcz for these advaita teachers the evolution process has become automatic (seek first the kingdom of God and all will be added to you) and they seem to have found it.
it's best if we leave it to the master if he would like to chime in. |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Aug 04 2009 : 08:34:40 AM
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Hi all,
Nice discussion...
I found this video which has an interesting take on the relationship between doing, non-doing, and that which depends on grace alone (in this case the grace of a master):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t8bU...ture=related
Christi |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Aug 04 2009 : 10:44:27 AM
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Hi Christi and All....
Is there a copy of this video on Google video? I can't watch youtube videos at home or at work, but I can watch Google videos at work. If you (or anyone else that can see the video) and can see that there is a copy on Google, would you mind posting a link for me please? I would really like to watch this video....Thanks and sorry for any inconvenience.
Love,
Carson |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Aug 04 2009 : 11:08:52 AM
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Carson,
It seems to be on Youtube only. It is a poetry by Rumi.
Here is what it says:
A Basket of Fresh Bread ..
The Prophet Muhammad said,
"There is no better companion
on this Way than what you do. Your actions will be
your best friend, or if you're cruel and selfish,
your actions will be a poisonous snake
that lives in your grave."
But tell me,
can you do the good work without a teacher?
Can you even know what it is without the presence
of a Master? Notice how the lowest livelihood
requires some instruction.
First comes knowledge,
then the doing of the job. And much later,
perhaps after you're dead, something grows
from what you've done.
Look for help and guidance
in whatever craft you're learning. Look for a generous
teacher, one who has absorbed the tradition he's in.
(these lines [in italics] are not on the video... but wow these lines are awesome!!!)
Look for pearls in oyster shells.
Learn technical skill from a craftsman.
Whenever you meet genuine spiritual teachers,
be gentle and polite and fair with them.
Ask them questions, and be eager
for answers. Never condescend.
If a master tanner wears an old, threadbare smock,
that doesn't diminish his mastery.
If a fine blacksmith works at the bellows
in a patched apron, it doesn't affect
how he bends the iron.
Strip away your pride,
and put on humble clothes.
If you want to learn theory,
talk with theoreticians. That way is oral.
When you learn a craft, practice it.
That learning comes through the hands.
If you want dervishood, spiritual poverty,
and emptiness, you must be friends with a sheikh.
The mystery of spiritual emptiness
may be living in a pilgrim's heart, and yet
the knowing of it may not be his.
Wait for the illuminating openness,
as though your chest were filling with Light,
as when God said,
"Did we not expand you?"
(Qur'an, XCIV,1)
Don't look for it outside yourself.
You are the source of milk. Don't milk others!
There is a milk-fountain inside you.
Don't walk around with an empty bucket.
You have a channel into the Ocean, and yet
you ask for water from a little pool.
Beg for that love-expansion. Meditate only
on THAT. The Qur'an says,
And he is with you
(VII,4)
There is a basket of fresh bread on your head,
and yet you go door to door asking for crusts.
Knock on your inner door. No other.
Sloshing kneedeep in fresh riverwater, yet
you keep wanting a drink from other people's water bags.
Water is everywhere around you, but you only see
barriers that keep you from water.
The horse is beneath the rider's thighs, and still
he asks, Where is my horse?
"Right there, under you!"
Yes, this is a horse, but where's the horse?
"Can't you see!"
Yes, I can see, but whoever saw such a horse?
Mad with thirst, he can't drink from the stream
running so close by his face. He's like a pearl
on the deep bottom, wondering, inside his shell,
"Where's the Ocean?"
His mental questionings
form the barrier. His physical eyesight
bandages his knowing. Self-consciousness
plugs his ears.
Stay bewildered in God,
and only that.
Those of you who are scattered,
simplify your worrying lives. There is one
righteousness: Water the fruit trees,
and don't water the thorns. Be generous
to what nurtures the Spirit and God's luminous
reason-light. Don’t honor what causes
dysentery and knotted-up tumors.
Don't feed both sides of yourself equally.
The spirit and the body carry different loads
and require different attentions.
Too often
we put saddlebags on Jesus and let the donkey
run loose in the pasture.
Don't make the body do
what the spirit does best, and don't put a big load
on the spirit that the body could carry easily. |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Aug 04 2009 : 11:22:02 AM
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Wow.....Thank you Christi for sharing the video and thank you Shanti for posting this transcript for me.....all I can say is "Wow".
quote:
"There is no better companion on this Way than what you do. Your actions will be your best friend, or if you're cruel and selfish, your actions will be a poisonous snake that lives in your grave."
quote:
Mad with thirst, he can't drink from the stream running so close by his face. He's like a pearl on the deep bottom, wondering, inside his shell, "Where's the Ocean?" His mental questionings form the barrier. His physical eyesight bandages his knowing. Self-consciousness plugs his ears.
quote:
Too often we put saddlebags on Jesus and let the donkey run loose in the pasture.
Love,
Carson |
Edited by - CarsonZi on Aug 04 2009 11:23:08 AM |
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yogani
USA
5242 Posts |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Aug 04 2009 : 1:20:13 PM
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Hi all,
My main reason for posting the link for this poem (apart from the fact that it is an amazing poem in it's own right, writen about 750 years ago) is because of the way Rumi treats with dvaita, advaita and the Grace of a master in one poem without any seeming discord between the three.
In the opening lines he seems to suggest the importance of action:
"But tell me, can you do the good work without a teacher?
Can you even know what it is without the presence of a Master? Notice how the lowest livelihood requires some instruction. First comes knowledge, then the doing of the job."
Then, almost in the same breath, he goes on to say that practices are of no use:
"If you want Dervish-hood, spiritual poverty and emptiness,
You must be friends with a Shayk
Talking about it, reading books, and doing practices don’t help." (This line is on the Youtube version but not on the transcript above)
And then there are lines covering aspects of the process of energetic transformation and the importance of the radiance of a master:
"Wait for the illuminating openness, as though your chest were filling with light. As when God said “Did we not expand you?”
Beg for that love expansion. Meditate only on that...
There is a milk-fountain inside you."
And:
"Soul receives from soul that knowing."
(Again this line is on the Youtube version, and not on the transcript above)
For me, this poem is an example of how an integrated spiritual tradition (in this case Sufi) blends both dual and non-dual aspects of the spiritual path without any problem at all. In my experience, Yoga does this too, and in a funny kind of way, even the Neo-Advaitins are playing their part in the grand scheme of things. 
Christi
p.s. Thanks for the transcript Shanti.  |
Edited by - Christi on Aug 04 2009 3:16:39 PM |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Aug 04 2009 : 1:29:42 PM
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Hi Yogani,
Thanks for the link to the other thread... I am looking forward to the new main lessons on Jnyana Yoga.
Christi |
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Katrine
Norway
1813 Posts |
Posted - Aug 04 2009 : 5:17:14 PM
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Hi Christi
That was a beautiful video....thank you.
And thank you also for your discource regarding the blending of seemingly different practices.
Like blending Jnana, Bhakti and Karma into one natural...whole... expressional .....teaching....like a triad....or live triad Yoni.
I must look into this Sufi thing....this tradition.....I find great resonance with what you wrote..... thanks again |
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Ananda
3115 Posts |
Posted - Aug 05 2009 : 01:18:19 AM
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that's beautiful Christy,
quote:"Soul receives from soul that knowing."
the suffi technical name for this is "Al Mousarara", teaching through silence directly from the cave of lights "heart of the sheikh" to the "heart of the mourid" the student. |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Aug 05 2009 : 7:54:03 PM
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quote:
That was a beautiful video....thank you.
And thank you also for your discource regarding the blending of seemingly different practices.
Like blending Jnana, Bhakti and Karma into one natural...whole... expressional .....teaching....like a triad....or live triad Yoni.
I must look into this Sufi thing....this tradition.....I find great resonance with what you wrote..... thanks again
Hi Katrine,
Yes. Just as Suffism blends dvaita, advaita and grace, it also fuses jnyana yoga, bhakti yoga and karma yoga. Of course, at the most esoteric level, all the great traditions do... Suffism, Christianity, Buddhism, Hinduism.
In fact, once you get to this level, where the individual is expanding into Divine consciousness through continual surrender, and Divine consciousness is pouring into the individual as grace, it is difficult to tell one path from another. They all merge into each other, and the labels fall away.
I think you would love the Sufis.
Christi |
Edited by - Christi on Aug 05 2009 8:20:41 PM |
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porcupine
USA
193 Posts |
Posted - Aug 08 2009 : 5:37:28 PM
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| there are no sufis and no people, end it there |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Aug 15 2009 : 08:48:33 AM
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Hi Porcupine.
quote:
there are no sufis and no people, end it there
Or... there are many Sufis and billions of people. Just another angle. 
Never end it.
Christi |
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porcupine
USA
193 Posts |
Posted - Aug 23 2009 : 12:04:37 AM
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| this is sacred |
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - Aug 24 2009 : 02:29:00 AM
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Kirtanman, Whether one needs formal practice or not is a matter for the practitioner and the guru (inner and/or outer) to decide. Non-meditation and non-doing is not wrong. Those who are already very realized can practice like this. Those who realize self-liberation are always deep in meditation. Though it is rare, the fact that it is possible sheds light on the truth. It is something to which we can all aspire. Until, then, there are the practices.
Christi, I thought people don't need teachers and transmission? In the Rainbow Body thread you said people don't need transmissions or teachers... I don't follow you, really... Let me help you understand something wonderful...
Actually, Sufi poem is an example of the Mahasiddha path and Guru Yoga: 1) Direct introduction by the realized master; 2) Dispelling doubts about that unique state and 3) Continuing in confidence in self-liberation (without or with formal meditation).
The Mahasiddha path transcends lineages, traditions and practices. Once one recognizes the nature of mind, there is no need for inner silence meditation or witness as formal discrete practices. The nature of mind is already both. That seeing and direct knowledge is the fruit of all practices combined.
"Soul receives from soul that knowing." <-- Lineage transmission. |
Edited by - Konchok Ösel Dorje on Aug 24 2009 1:12:23 PM |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Aug 25 2009 : 10:16:02 PM
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Hi Konchok,
quote:
Originally posted by Konchok Ösel Dorje
Kirtanman, Whether one needs formal practice or not is a matter for the practitioner and the guru (inner and/or outer) to decide. Non-meditation and non-doing is not wrong. Those who are already very realized can practice like this. Those who realize self-liberation are always deep in meditation. Though it is rare, the fact that it is possible sheds light on the truth. It is something to which we can all aspire. Until, then, there are the practices.
I agree with what you've written 100%, and never intended anything else I've written to convey a different view.
My entire purpose in starting this thread was to clarify the misconception that Advaitic paths are against practices, which was kind of a "running myth" here at the AYP Forum, for a while.
All Advaitic paths I know of *do* teach that practices are necessary -- and so, I felt that a thread highlighting this actuality, might help forum members and visitors to have an accurate understanding of the harmonious, essential relationship between practices and realization.
However, this does not disagree with your statements above.
I agree fully that non-meditation and non-doing are not wrong.
They're not even non-conducive to realization, necessarily.
In most cases, though -- if a given practitioner is experiencing life/living in terms of philosophies, realization, practices or not, etc. --- then it is likely that practices, appropriate/applicable to their current consciousness -- as outlined in Kashmir Shaivism -- and I'm pretty sure as outlined in Vajrayana, (though I will defer to you for confirmation of that) -- will be beneficial, and that the practitioner will be so guided by the guru (inner and/or outer, as you say).
And so, I wasn't speaking in a sense that "practices are necessary, and {therefore} non-practicing is wrong" ... but rather "Practices are in harmony with Advaitic philosphies; Advaitic philosophies do not say that practices are wrong."
My purpose, as mentioned above, being to clarify the misconception that Advaitic schools teach that practices reinforce duality, and that practices are therefore bad/counterproductive.
In my experience, some neo-Advaita teachers proclaim this, but no traditional Advaitic school (Advaita Vedanta, as I can now confirm; Advaita Shaiva//Kashmir Shaivism, Buddhist Non-Dual Schools {Dzogchen, Vajrayana and others}, Kabbalah, Mystical Christianity, Sufism, and so on) teach that the non-duality of reality, and the apparent duality of practices, are in any kind of disharmony.
Nearly every awakening trajectory involves the sense of movement from dreaming-conceptual-duality to knowing-reality.
The yogic practices of Advaita are the alarm clock of awakening, spread out over a bit of dream-time.
I hope this helps clarify what I meant by "necessary".
I would guess, that with your own Vajrayana path as reference point, you understand what I'm saying, yes?
Vajrayana is non-dual in essence -- and, Vajrayana contains practices which help the reality of non-duality be known.
Being non-dual in essence, Vajrayana (and its gurus/teachers/advanced practitioners) know that ultimately, practicing or non-practicing is consciousness being consciousness ..... either consciously, semi-consciously or unconsciously ... because the spectrum of consciousness "consciousness-ing" .... is all there ever is, now.
(And please correct my statements if they do not reflect Vajrayana accurately; basically, I'm saying about Vajrayana what I could say about Kashmir Shaivism or Kabbalah ... because all essentially non-dual paths are that similar, that I feel safe in "so doing" .... however, I am not claiming to have more than passing familiarity with Vajrayana, specifically.)
Hope that helps clarify "my" (non)-position.
Heart Is Where The AUM Is,
Kirtanman
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Edited by - Kirtanman on Aug 25 2009 11:03:03 PM |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Aug 26 2009 : 04:36:22 AM
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Hi Osel,
quote:
Christi, I thought people don't need teachers and transmission? In the Rainbow Body thread you said people don't need transmissions or teachers... I don't follow you, really... Let me help you understand something wonderful...
Actually, Sufi poem is an example of the Mahasiddha path and Guru Yoga: 1) Direct introduction by the realized master; 2) Dispelling doubts about that unique state and 3) Continuing in confidence in self-liberation (without or with formal meditation).
The Mahasiddha path transcends lineages, traditions and practices. Once one recognizes the nature of mind, there is no need for inner silence meditation or witness as formal discrete practices. The nature of mind is already both. That seeing and direct knowledge is the fruit of all practices combined.
"Soul receives from soul that knowing." <-- Lineage transmission.
That's right. I believe at the present time many people are evolving spiritually even though they have no spiritual teacher and have never received direct spiritual transmissions. Nothing I wrote above contradicts that. Of course we are blessed (as you and I are) if we have come into contact with pure spiritual teachers and we are also blessed if we have come into contact with spiritual transmissions. We both have a great deal to be grateful for.
Thank you for sharing your wisdom on the Mahasiddhi path.
Christi
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A Word on Yogic Practices in Advaita
