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YogaIsLife
641 Posts |
 Posted - Jul 28 2009 : 06:13:47 AM
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Hi,
I have been wondering about the 'inward' nature of most, if not all, eastern spiritual traditions, or all of the mystical traditions of the world, such as Yoga, Advaita, Buddhism, Self-Inquiry, etc. They all seem to have something in common - they advocate looking for God inside. They all emphasize searching within, either by inquiry (who am I?), meditation on an object, or any other technique.
I can't help but wonder if this is the *only* way. Wouldn't it also be possible to find God (I use this interchangeably with the understanding or realisation of ultimate reality) investigating and/or communing with the "outer" reality? I believe so.
For example - the examination of a plant, or the sun setting, or the wind blowing, etc. can make arise the same questions (and excitations/desires to know) inside that might prompt one in the quest for the truth - what is all this? What moves the wind? What is the essence of a plant? By whom and to whom and of whom is all this created? We might find, through this investigation, that the essence of a blade of grass is the same as our own essence.
I wonder if you know any particular spirtual tradition or culture that advocates this kind of a path. It seems to me that most of the world indigenous oral (as opposed to having a written record) cultures lived this kind of spirituality. I am reminded of the American Indians and their deep communion with all the 'spirits' of nature and the 'Great Spirit', creator of all, and present on all things. I am reminded how their rites of passage or the wisdom of a medicine man is gained by spending a long period alone in the wilderness for a deep communion (and merging) with the great spirit or creator (god).
What do you think? And please, if you know or practice any of the 'outer' traditions, do share!
Thanks!
YIL |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Jul 28 2009 : 09:01:08 AM
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The "outer" also needs to be experienced from the "inside". Hence we are told to first go inward and then the whole world will become clear. And BTW the inside and outside are concepts. There is no inside and outside. There is awareness/stillness (shiva) and movement (shakti).
You are welcome to do inquiry on why the wind blows or the wind blowing. You will come to the same answer.. the wind exists because "you" believe the wind exists. So who are "you"?
I don't like getting replies like this. So sorry for replying to you this way. The reason they ask you to go inward is to save on time. But you are welcome to start with the outside.. it will take to the same place. When you realize, "you" are a concept.. everything else falls away. You are that "plant" and "the sun setting" and "the wind blowing". It all arises from the same place "you" arise.  |
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YogaIsLife
641 Posts |
Posted - Jul 28 2009 : 09:46:20 AM
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Hi Shanti and thanks.
quote:
You are that "plant" and "the sun setting" and "the wind blowing". It all arises from the same place "you" arise.
Yes, this is what I feel. So, in reality it is not any faster to go inwards or outwards. If you ask with dedication 'what is this flower?' you might be surprised at the answer!  |
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Peter
Italy
25 Posts |
Posted - Jul 28 2009 : 10:02:26 AM
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Hi YIL,
I would be wary of snuffing the possibility of you being able to probe this issue through your own direct experience by providing you with a handy answer... Indeed, it far easier for me to answer you than to allow you to answer yourself....
So I would only ask how exactly it is that you know of this inside and this outside?
Shanti has broadly pointed a way, but it is for you to precisely discern the only path that is yours toward whatever answer you can know.
With Love,
Peter |
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YogaIsLife
641 Posts |
Posted - Jul 28 2009 : 10:42:15 AM
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Hi Peter and thanks for writing,
I am not sure I understand what you mean, but I guess you say that it is not possible to know anything "outside" ourselves...and I guess that is true. Maybe I did not make myself clear but what I am trying to point at is the different "ways" to the source or truth. I wondered if, like in shamanic traditions, etc., it is not possible to arrive at the same understandings and realisations despite not emphasising so much the "going inwards" as in eastern mystical traditions. I believe so, but this is only a hunch of course. In the end the "inside" is the "outside", as may be realised.
In other words, what I am aiming at is the many forms in which desire or motivations to wanting to know the truth can come from - from the beauty and wonderment that one can feel while watching a sunset, to the deep insights and inner visions of a meditative seat. Is this not so? I guess then one must listen to and follow what is more attuned to one's own heart, the way it sings in each particular individual...but maybe I am just being to lyrical about it!  |
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YogaIsLife
641 Posts |
Posted - Jul 28 2009 : 11:03:41 AM
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Hi again Peter,
I re-read your post and I hadn't understand very well the first paragraph but now I do! It's the language barrier!
I get it now - I should search for my answer myself. I think it is a good idea. I think the questions themselves are a sign that the answer is there somewhere for me to find I sometimes feel a tingling of excitiment when the questions seem to point to something important for me...
Thank you very much for that my friend! |
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atena
113 Posts |
Posted - Jul 28 2009 : 2:47:17 PM
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Some daoists like Michael Winn make distinction between 'heaven/sky/formless centered' and 'earth/body/form' centered spirituality. I don't quite understand exactly what he means by that but what I do is that they're supposedly different polarities of the 'same thing' The current mainstream trend being the formless centered spirituality.
Another interesting notion he has is that the nature 'speaks' silent language of chi which can be learned through a progressive training called '7 alchemy formulas of immortality' taught by universal tao and healing tao.
Thats the stuff I'm pretty much into, but I'm a beginner with all of this, still playing with the 1st formula, so I can't speak any of this with certainty. Anyway, just some food for thought. |
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YogaIsLife
641 Posts |
Posted - Jul 28 2009 : 3:21:52 PM
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Thanks atena, that's great!
Seems interesting those views you mentioned and the fact that nature 'speaks' a silent language. I for one, pretty much thing so. We lost our ability to listen, as we also pretty much lost our ability to listen to ourselves. But it's coming back, it seems
As for the two sides of the same thing, it seems Shanti above agrees with you but calls it by two different names - shiva and shakti. I guess they are metaphors for the same underlying reality.
What I find interesting is how the knowledge of the ancient cultures, because it was oral (not written) and because they pretty much disapeared, is almost completely lost. It was in any case so intimately connected to their environment ("all is one") that it only makes sense in a natural and living setting. I guess modern spirituality, mainly based in written documents from the east that center around conscioussness/awareness on its own, is thus more "portable", and can work in more "artifical" nature-separated environments, like our modern civilisations. I don't know, just some food for thought. |
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grihastha
USA
184 Posts |
Posted - Jul 28 2009 : 3:49:34 PM
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This is an excellent question. From my point of view the answer is 'yes,' and it is to be found in Kashmir Shaivism (the Vijnana Bhairava Tantra and Yoga Spandakarika) and Mahamudra/Dzogchen (and certainly in Taoism).
Everything is perfect!
gri |
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HathaTeacher
Sweden
382 Posts |
Posted - Jul 28 2009 : 4:42:10 PM
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Hi YIL (BtW., I still strongly agree with your alias!
It's instrumental here to keep Yoga/Tantra and religious systems apart as two distinct categories, because the former are a lot older (4-5 thousand yrs., probably more) and because I think Tantra enables us to do what you're looking for (by fine-tuning our instruments through exercises for body and mind) : adoring the divine (Brahman = an absolute quality) in manifest nature (Maya) directly. It doesn't order you to become a Hindu or Christian, not even to have a manifest God at all (Ishwara = manifestation of Brahman = Gods in teistic religions). Your beliefs needn't even be teistic (Zen isn't, BtW, and has its roots in Tantra). Minds are just as individual as bodies, some are attracted to Ishwara whereas others find it a roundabout way on basically the same route.
But Yoga/Tantra does train us to open our mind and spirit (Frank Zappa: "The mind is like a parachute. It works only when open.")
The divine quality is always out there, in the sunset, sunrise, sound of the surf, straw of grass, kitten, tits and intimate parts of a loved one (down to every single pore). All we have to do is open ourselves to it - or more precisely, to liberate ourselves from the old habit of non-opening.
There are also very simple natural forms of meditation in yoga, for ex. by a waterfall or stream or surf, using the natural sound instead of a mantra.
A year ago, I've sat and sung long mantras with Kundalini yogis on a summer beach at 5 AM. to salute the sunrise. At noon, I took a naked swim near the same beach. When "dressed" in my towel again, the glittering waves gave me a direct genuine sense of presence and unity with the sand, the sea, the horizon, the sky and the sun rays, more than ever posible for me in any ceremony. As if my senses were even sharper than those of the first years of life. So, minds vary, faiths vary - but opening ourselves is key; without it, we would still be indifferent tourists trying to escape from home but never really reaching out to where we've come to.
I remember I found glimpses of full presence (or a sense of unity with the universe) in Erich Fromm's and D.T. Suzuki's Zen Buddism and Psychoanalysis, contrasting an open mind to analysis paralysis; later, in To Have or to Be, Fromm also contrasted a Japanese haiku to a poem by Tennyson. |
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Jul 28 2009 : 4:48:59 PM
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| There are some who self-realize through Christianity. I think it can be done if you don't cling to the symbols, but internalize them. Christ is treated as a metaphor of the awakened Self, and the cross as a symbol of dying to one's ego. (Similar to Shiva a metaphor for the Self, and the sivalinga of inner power). The Christian path may not start out that way, but the earnest seeker will inevitably bring the outer world (nature & symbols) inward. Like Shanti, I don't see any way around it, but this is a yoga forum, so most of us will see things similarly. :) |
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grihastha
USA
184 Posts |
Posted - Jul 28 2009 : 6:24:59 PM
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Over many generations in the West, we have slowly elevated consciousness out of its origins in nature. Consciousness has been extricated from the preconscious world of nature like a lotus rising from the mud of a riverbed, and we have gradually cultivated a sense of independent self-identity. This is an awareness that gives us the illusion of separation and autonomy, as well as the insecurity and alienation that accompanies it. According to Jung, as this separation from nature has evolved, archetypal forces once experienced in the world around have been drawn back and buried within the collective unconscious.
Seeing these archetypal forces as manifestations or projections of the unconscious gives us a psychological understanding of why we see the earth as a goddess, a forest as a deity, and the forces of nature as dragons and spirits. They become symbolic projections rather than real outer entities, This may give us autonomy and independence from the power of these elemental forces and may make these natural forces more understandable psychologically, but it also strips the land of its numinosity...
Tantra cultivates a return to the world where psyche and soma, consciousness and matter, are in an intimate inter-relationship. The understanding of subtle energy, both within the body and in the natural environment, makes this profound reconnection possible, principally through the body.
from The Psychology of Buddhist Tantra by Rob Preece (Snow Lion Publications, 2006) |
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - Jul 28 2009 : 6:34:58 PM
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| Whatever appears to your mind, examine it. Does it have an essence other than your mind? How do they appear? What is their mode of being? Inquiring that way allows you to integrate the outer and the inner. Ultimately there is no separation. |
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YogaIsLife
641 Posts |
Posted - Jul 29 2009 : 07:08:35 AM
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Hi all, and thanks for the wondeful additions to the discussion!
I think we are on to something here and the perspectives on tantra that hatha teacher and grihastha talk about seem to go close to the root of what I was talking about - to experience the divine directly immersed in life. You quote grihastha is particularly interesting and I have to check that book out...specially the first paragraph seems to illustrate what I was trying to explain - the cultivation of conscioussness outside the perceptive world can be seen as a form of detachment from the sensuous world. Even in meditation we are told to go within and to cultivate pure awareness, the one apart from all forms, and to be in the world but not of the world. This can create a sense of seperateness (or non-existance really) and it seems to be a step on the path, where sometimes people can get caught, from what I have gathered.
At the end there has to be a joining of the inner with the outer - what is "outside" is understood to be a part of ourselves. In fact it is: where do you feel the wind? Where do you feel the beauty of a flower? The feeling of the flower is inside yourself, and thus the flower is, in fact, a part of you, otherwise how would you actually feel it? There has to be a connection there...
Yes, tantra like you both suggested, seems to advocate the experience of the sensuous world directly, by refinement and opening of the mind and senses. This is a true marriage. There is something psychologically complex and subtle about meditation per se, if not understood correctly - it can become a refuge from the world. This is a trap, it seems to me. We have to be totally immersed in the sensuous world to experience it directly, as we have to be totally immerse in our own feelings and emotions (we have to become them) to be truly free. That is the joining. In the modern world we live too much separated from the sensuous world, and that is what created the separation we are trying to mend with yoga (=union). I like the phylosophy of tantra in this respect as it seems to advocate that true marriage. Will try to read more about it. Any suggestions of good books with the tantra philosophy in respect to this? I think the Vijnana Bhairava Tantra is one of this examples.
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Edited by - YogaIsLife on Jul 29 2009 07:25:33 AM |
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grihastha
USA
184 Posts |
Posted - Jul 29 2009 : 10:41:28 AM
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Hi YiL,
Yeah, the Rob Preece book is excellent - well worth the read. He puts things into a Western context without going overboard. I quoted from a longer passage which, now that I think about it, got rid of my last remaining objections to the Buddhist stream of tantra.
Other books - at the risk of sounding like a publicist (since I've been ranting about these books lately), I can't recommend Daniel Odier's books highly enough, particularly 'Yoga Spandakarika' and 'The Tantric Quest.' I was looking for the same thing you are, I think, and Odier gave me an incredible affirmation. Plus they're excellent springboards for deeper study.
A lot of ecstatic mystics saw communion with the divine - even the ones who preached non-dualism - as coming from without as well as from within. Ramakrishna saw Kali in everything. A flower would put him into samadhi.
Emaho!
gri
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miguel
Spain
1197 Posts |
Posted - Jul 29 2009 : 10:53:27 AM
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quote:
A flower would put him into samadhi.
wow... |
Edited by - miguel on Jul 29 2009 10:56:30 AM |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jul 30 2009 : 10:29:44 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by YogaIsLife
Hi,
I have been wondering about the 'inward' nature of most, if not all, eastern spiritual traditions, or all of the mystical traditions of the world, such as Yoga, Advaita, Buddhism, Self-Inquiry, etc. They all seem to have something in common - they advocate looking for God inside. They all emphasize searching within, either by inquiry (who am I?), meditation on an object, or any other technique.
**
I am reminded of the American Indians and their deep communion with all the 'spirits' of nature and the 'Great Spirit', creator of all, and present on all things. I am reminded how their rites of passage or the wisdom of a medicine man is gained by spending a long period alone in the wilderness for a deep communion (and merging) with the great spirit or creator (god).
What do you think? And please, if you know or practice any of the 'outer' traditions, do share!
Thanks!
YIL
Hi YIL,
I agree it's possible ... as others have said, the key is to realize that outer and inner are not different ... it's *all* appearing in the silent awareness that we each and all are experiencing this moment with/as now.
What we initially think of as "inner" is just the part of objectivity (focus, distinction) that the thought me *conceives of* as "inner".
The true "inner" is silent awareness .... and this silent awareness is.
Neither inner, nor outer .... but space/spaciousness .... still ... pervasive ... equally space itself ... equally the condensation of spaciousness perceived as objects by other condensation of space perceived as "me" perceiving objects.
There is no difference.
Non-acceptance makes all the difference.
Acceptance is unity; all the unity.
The orientation toward "inner" is purely because it's easier; silent spaciousness is more likely to be noticed as the experiencing self, the experiencing awareness which is, now, when all else stops and falls silent.
"Outer" ... the worship of objects ... often reinforces the thought of separate self which thinks it is separate from the object of worship.
Worshiper, Worshiping, Worshiped are One.
Even Ramakrishna took quite a while to understand that Ma Kali is his own infinite awareness.
And so ... "outer" ... the so-called exoteric churches and religions ... which teach that objects are real and separate ... and especially that God is real but separate .... reinforce the dream.
Spiritual paths which help one to know oneness via connection with all that is ... whether celebrated via nature, or silence or sexuality or posting at an online forum .... are revealing the reality of the oneness of reality.
In dropping all concepts .... reality appears .... and it is glorious.
All of it.
Tattvam Asi.
You Are That.
Kirtanman
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Edited by - Kirtanman on Jul 30 2009 10:30:40 PM |
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Realisation through the "Outer" World?
