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christiane
Lebanon
319 Posts |
 Posted - Jul 22 2009 : 09:53:58 AM
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A man went to a barbershop to have his hair cut and his beard trimmed.
As the barber began to work, they began to have a good conversation.
They talked about so many things and various subjects.
When they eventually touched on the subject of God, the barber said:
'I don't believe that God exists.'
'Why do you say that?' asked the customer. 'Well, you just have to go out in the street to realize that God doesn't exist.
Tell me, if God exists, would there be so many sick people?
Would there be abandoned children? If God existed, there would be neither suffering nor pain.
I can't imagine a loving God who would allow all of these things.'
The customer thought for a moment, but didn't respond because he didn't want to start an argument.
The barber finished his job and the customer left the shop.
Just after he left the barbershop, he saw a man in the street with long, stringy, dirty hair and an untrimmed beard.
He looked dirty and unkempt. The customer turned back and entered the barber shop again and he said to the barber:
'You know what? Barbers do not exist.'
'How can you say that?' asked the surprised barber.
'I am here, and I am a barber. And I just worked on you!'
'No!' the customer exclaimed. 'Barbers don't exist because if they did, there would be no people with dirty long hair and untrimmed beards, like that man outside.'
'Ah, but barbers DO exist! That's what happens when people do not come to me.'
'Exactly!' affirmed the customer. 'That's the point! God, too, DOES exist!
That's what happens when people do not go to Him and don't look to Him for help.
That's why there's so much pain and suffering in the world.' |
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Ananda
3115 Posts |
Posted - Jul 22 2009 : 11:38:50 AM
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hi Christina(f), and thk you for sharing and sorry to be a party breaker but a lot of people go toward him for help and get disapointed; sometimes bcz of the wrong kind of asking for help and sometimes it's just too unfair for some so let's blame it on karma .
i've read another version of this story by Anthony de Mello if my memory serves me right and in it a man was asking why was there so much suffering in the world and why doesn't God do anything about it and at night time the man hears a whispering sound saying i created you .
Love,
Ananda
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christiane
Lebanon
319 Posts |
Posted - Jul 22 2009 : 12:06:02 PM
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if they go to Him out of fear or begging, certainly they'll be disappointed..
Unless we become children again, (innocent, no-mind, playful) well.... you know the end of the sentence..
Talking about barbers and bears, many gurus look like they've never met God, I mean the barber  what a mysterious paradox..
Love... (from a lucky shaved born one )
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Jul 22 2009 : 12:13:59 PM
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It's is one thing to go to (surrender to) God in prayer (asking for help, whatever)....it is a completely other thing to expect God to answer your prayers the way you want. This is why people feel God doesn't answer prayers and are disappointed/disallusioned when they feel he hasn't, IMO.
Love,
Carson |
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gumpi
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
Posted - Jul 22 2009 : 1:48:52 PM
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Carson, an astute insight there. But we are old enough to know that demanding that God show us things is futile. I am not a trophy or object that can be bought, manipulated or chastised, i am just a human being that identifies with the God of everything.
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Manipura
USA
870 Posts |
Posted - Jul 22 2009 : 2:31:05 PM
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Nice story, Christiane...thanks. Last night at an advaita course we discussed good & evil. We use Nisargadatta's "I AM THAT" as a launching pad for our discussions. When he was asked by his questioner about good versus evil, Nisargadatta replied that he doesn't know good & evil. They're just mental constructs which we have created, but when we leave behind the dual structure of our thinking, we no longer engage in the experience of either/or. Instead, we see good/evil as interdependent (or non-dual).
Without good, there would be no evil.
Without suffering, there would be no joy.
Without darkness, there would be no light.
Without empty, there would be no full.
(and so on)
Using the suffering in the world as a proof that there is no God is a pretty lame argument. It presumes that we know the mind and intentions of God, and it ignores the outrageous beauty, joy, and good will that are in abundance. Not that this is a proof that God exists, but it at least cancels out evil as proof that he doesn't.
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christiane
Lebanon
319 Posts |
Posted - Jul 22 2009 : 2:49:54 PM
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I don't believe that God exists, nor do I disbelieve (S)he doesn't.
I believe in the Godliness that is in me and us simply because it has become part of my experience. Otherwise, all will remain a useless mental concept.
When I pray, I address it to whatever may hear my prayer...
I can call it my angel, my higher Self, the Source, Love, Light whatever... it could be my Lover, not as an individual, but as a light and love himself, as pure energy and heart..
Whatever God we pray is irrelevant.
The very state of being in prayer is enough.
Amen. |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Jul 22 2009 : 7:12:54 PM
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Not believing in God because he doesn't do what you think he should do is such a spoiled child way of looking at the world.
That thinking presupposes that you understand how the whole world works, and it's not working right. You would have to be God to see that viewpoint, so you must think you are equal to God to make such a statement.
This is the same kind of childish reasoning we see when people tell us poverty can be solved so easily - take money from the rich and give it to the poor! It is shallow thinking that shows lack of investigating the details of both sides of an argument.
"If daddy doesn't give me a pony, then he's a bad father!" might be perfectly logical to a two year old. . .
The barber's reasoning would be correct if he could prove:
1) We only live one life, and there is no karma
2) People never learn anything from suffering
3) Life is only good when everything is easy and comfortable
4) Interactions between people are not important, only the comfort of each individual
Now, if the barber were to say he doesn't believe God is what a particular religion says he is -
then he has a point much easier to defend.
And I'd tend to agree with him about most religions!
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Balance
USA
967 Posts |
Posted - Jul 22 2009 : 7:44:47 PM
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| Beliefs can change like other thoughts. How important is it how we believe or don't believe in something? Whatever we believe doesn't change the fact of our being. Whatever God is or isn't is impossible to put in word or thought. |
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grihastha
USA
184 Posts |
Posted - Jul 22 2009 : 8:47:19 PM
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This is an interesting discussion.
Who among us believes in a Supreme Being? In a CCTV God watching over us? A dice-playing God?
Just for the record, I don't. I think the barber's right. If you believe in a dualist universe, you ultimately have to explain why God has no affect, or why that affect is limited or partial. Religions are like the small print in contracts: there's always an escape clause for the Almighty.
Peace!
gri |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Jul 22 2009 : 9:10:31 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by grihastha
If you believe in a dualist universe, you ultimately have to explain why God has no affect, or why that affect is limited or partial.
gri
Why would you have to believe God has an effect?
I believe in God but I have no explanations, or expectations of him.
He is what he is, and it has nothing to do with my beliefs. |
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - Jul 22 2009 : 10:03:21 PM
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| Karma. |
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christiane
Lebanon
319 Posts |
Posted - Jul 23 2009 : 12:30:47 AM
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If God exists, (s)he must be the biggest joker in the Eternity (which (S)He IS!  ) coz (s)he created humans who created this barber story and are debating about Him/Her now...
And if God exists, who is his barber?!
aaaaaah....mindy mind! 
In smiling and laughing at a story/joke we meet God.
In the silent mind.. let's have a good shave |
Edited by - christiane on Jul 23 2009 04:26:46 AM |
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nandhi
USA
362 Posts |
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - Jul 23 2009 : 3:39:22 PM
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| There is no place where there is no suffering. This is the First Noble Truth discovered by the Buddha Shakyamuni. God has no choice regarding suffering. All sentient beings are responsible for their own actions and attachments. We have free will, after all. We also have the freedom to choose the noble path of non-attachment and escape the cycles of rebirth. In that moment, we surpass any idea of God or man. |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Jul 23 2009 : 5:42:54 PM
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God does not discriminate between a holy man, a poor man, an atheist, a criminal, a drug addict, an alcoholic, a man, a woman. God just loves and gives love to everything and everyone a 100%. Even if we are the most despicable person as per the judgment of the society, god loves us just as much as what the society defines as the most "pious" person. God will not say.. you eat meat so you are not going to get my 100% loving.. you only get 100% loving from god. The difference is, when we pollute our body/mind with stuff like (esp. in excess) alcohol, drugs, smoking, meats, junk food, lust, guilt, we are not a 100% available and hence not in a position to receive that loving. Our identification is with the outer world and we miss the loving God is sending us.
Hence yoga.
Thanks for the story Christiane. I remember reading it a while back and was really touched by it too. |
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chinna
United Kingdom
241 Posts |
Posted - Jul 23 2009 : 6:02:49 PM
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The difference between the following statements is negligible:
"There is no such thing as God. (atheism)"
and
"God is not in any sense a thing. (classical theism of all traditions)"
Properly understood, atheism and theism are indistinguishable. (Funny that their advocates are always at each others' throats. Theological illiteracy.)
Religions which forbid the divine to be named (Judaism, Islam, Advaita Vedanta, etc) and religions which refute the divine (some Buddhists) are both saying the same thing. Religious stories with names and forms point to the same reality.
Fully realising that atheism and theism are not-two can be a liberating answer to the ultimate prayer.
chinna |
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - Jul 23 2009 : 9:42:26 PM
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| For the record. The Buddha said that God is real. He just refuted that God is the ultimate reality. The Buddha taught that God is misinformed about his eternality, do to his being the first person. According to the Buddha, God is not the creator. He said there is no creator; all is impermanent, including God. Buddhists are not atheists. However, they do not worship God. For Buddhists, the human realm is the ultimate place with a balance of suffering and pleasure where we can attain enlightenment, that is see through all the possible realms into the ultimate reality, the Dharmakaya. |
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gumpi
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
Posted - Jul 24 2009 : 09:09:35 AM
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| Buddha was probably right. it would be interesting to know what he would think if he were around today, especially the last 12 years. |
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - Jul 24 2009 : 1:00:02 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by gumpi
Buddha was probably right. it would be interesting to know what he would think if he were around today, especially the last 12 years.
What makes you think he is not around today? The Dharmakaya is the basis of your mind. The primordial spontaneous empty awareness is the "identity" of the Buddha, and this is not different than your own mind. |
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gumpi
United Kingdom
546 Posts |
Posted - Jul 25 2009 : 09:05:49 AM
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What is the dharmakaya?
Awareness with or without thoughts is only God, only me. Buddha as an historical individual is no longer around on earth. If by "buddha" you mean the state of consciousness instead of the man, i know what you mean. |
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - Jul 25 2009 : 2:10:12 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by gumpi
What is the dharmakaya?
Awareness with or without thoughts is only God, only me. Buddha as an historical individual is no longer around on earth. If by "buddha" you mean the state of consciousness instead of the man, i know what you mean.
The Dharmakaya is the Buddha-nature within everyone, the nature of mind, not consciousness, without referent, emptiness, pure potentiality at the moment. As awareness it is the Sambokhakaya, the continuum, consciousness only to the extent it is non-conceptual compassion unbound, still without referent, the reflection of the Dharmakaya, the teacher as one's mind. A Buddha, (not The Buddha historical) is an emanation of the Dharmakaya in physical form, the one who points out the nature of mind to you, the stream of thoughts showing you the Dharmakaya. It is not God to the extent that it is your own mind and not external to you, empty of any name. It is the Buddha to the extent you recognize it in your own stream of being as compassion for all beings and dedication to lead all beings to buddhahood. God is an impermanent entity bound within the Form Realm of Samsara. The Buddha is simply the teacher, pointing out the empty nature of mind, beyond suffering, beyond hope, beyond form, beyond all formless meditations. The Buddha is at once a person, a mind, activities, a concept and the empty nature of mind beyond all concepts. Emptiness. The Dharmakaya is that spontaneously available potential within our mind at this moment. |
Edited by - Konchok Ösel Dorje on Jul 25 2009 2:20:19 PM |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Jul 25 2009 : 2:23:14 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Konchok Ösel Dorje
There is no place where there is no suffering.
I don't think there is any suffering in my life. Sure I have tiny problems, but they are certainly not what I would call suffering.
They just give me motivation to do something. |
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - Jul 25 2009 : 3:16:37 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
quote:
Originally posted by Konchok Ösel Dorje
There is no place where there is no suffering.
I don't think there is any suffering in my life. Sure I have tiny problems, but they are certainly not what I would call suffering.
They just give me motivation to do something.
Suffering has many degrees. Perhaps you are a good practitioner. Tiny problems are tiny sufferings. Suffering is the First Noble Truth. There is the suffering of suffering, the suffering of not getting what you want, and the suffering of fear of losing what you have. Everyone experiences these to some degree. Any attachment is suffering. Any effort to pinpoint some truth is suffering. Ultimately, there is no suffering. |
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Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Jul 25 2009 : 3:59:14 PM
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I need those tiny problems in my life. They are my reason for living. When there are no problems I am extremely lazy. I just sit there and do nothing. Then when a problem shows up it is like a gift to me. I love it. I have a reason for action.
Part of my job is I handle emergency calls and they are like treats to me; something for me to do that only I can do. I kinda go into hibernation mode, then when I get a call I'm alive again. I may be different than other people, I don't know. But I have a purpose for being here, and it doesn't seem like suffering at all. I have to use my body and mind to keep them from withering, and the problems that are given me fulfill that purpose. |
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - Jul 25 2009 : 4:32:23 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
I need those tiny problems in my life. They are my reason for living. When there are no problems I am extremely lazy. I just sit there and do nothing. Then when a problem shows up it is like a gift to me. I love it. I have a reason for action.
Part of my job is I handle emergency calls and they are like treats to me; something for me to do that only I can do. I kinda go into hibernation mode, then when I get a call I'm alive again. I may be different than other people, I don't know. But I have a purpose for being here, and it doesn't seem like suffering at all. I have to use my body and mind to keep them from withering, and the problems that are given me fulfill that purpose.
The human condition is the soil of buddhahood. Samsara and Nirvana find their source in your mind. |
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Why God allows pain and suffering
