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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
 Posted - Jul 21 2009 : 11:09:57 AM
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Hi Kirtanman,
quote:
Hi Christi & All,
Christi ... I'm not quite understanding how anything can be beyond Advaita?
And also: I'm not understanding the differences between "unity" consciousness and universal consciousness (?) ... and/or divine consciousness (?)
If you would be so kind as to clarify the terminology you used, that would be much appreciated!
And - I'm fairly sure it is just a terminology thing ... Advaita Shaiva/Kashmir Shaivism uses the terms you use ... but somewhat differently ... and my guess is: we're all likely talking about the same blend of awareness/consciousness ... but just using different terms for the stages or levels.
And again: any clarification would be helpful and appreciated.
Heart Is Where The AUM Is,
Kirtanman
Beyond advaita, in the sense of being further developments in the process of human spiritual evolution even after the realization of unity consciousness. In the terminology I used above, unity consciousness and universal consciousness are the same thing, and are advaita. When everything is seen to be non-dual, it is One... unity, everywhere (universal).
The other two terms I used... cosmic consciousness and divine consciousness refer to stages of progression beyond that awareness. As I experience it, both in terms of my own consciousness, and that of 'others'  , it is a double aspected process.
On the one hand, there is the refinement in sensory perception, which is ongoing. This is the increasing ability to perceive divine energy, divine light and divine love, everywhere and at all times. Our perceptions become elevated to higher and increasingly subtle, and incredibly beautiful levels.
Secondly, there is a gradual increase in the level to which we are able to transmit that divine light to others, directly, in silence. I have met people who are so evolved that they have to severely limit the amount of time that humans can spend in their presence to just a few minutes a day, in order to avoid damaging them on an energetic level. I have also met one man who had to limit his contact with humans to just a few seconds at a time. These people have little contact with the majority of humanity at the moment because we simply could not cope with the purity and intensity of the light that pours through them.
People working at this level are transforming the light of this earth into the divine light. This is the creation of heaven on earth that Christ spoke of. They have to be careful how fast the process happens, out of compassion for the rest of us. Self-pacing at the level of divine consciousness.
This is why you could say, that unity consciousness is really just the beginning of the path. Before that, it was just a kind of blind stumbling around in the darkness. 
I have no knowledge of Kashmiri Shaivism, so I can't really comment on that. All I can say is that in terms of mapmaking, there are some maps which are quite complex (like the kabala), and others that are quite simple (like yoga), but in my experience, they are all explaining the same terrain.
Christi
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miguel
Spain
1197 Posts |
Posted - Jul 21 2009 : 1:02:34 PM
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quote:
I have met people who are so evolved that they have to severely limit the amount of time that humans can spend in their presence to just a few minutes a day, in order to avoid damaging them on an energetic level.
It happens to me with mooji for example.Yogani spanish translations,amma,nisargadatta,babaji...also. |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Jul 23 2009 : 7:24:48 PM
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Hi Miguel,
Yes... Amma was the first human who I noticed was deliberately controlling the amount of time that people spent near to her. Interestingly, even in her state, Amma still does spiritual practices every day.
Christi |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jul 23 2009 : 9:47:36 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Christi
Hi Kirtanman,
This is why you could say, that unity consciousness is really just the beginning of the path. Before that, it was just a kind of blind stumbling around in the darkness.
I have no knowledge of Kashmiri Shaivism, so I can't really comment on that. All I can say is that in terms of mapmaking, there are some maps which are quite complex (like the kabala), and others that are quite simple (like yoga), but in my experience, they are all explaining the same terrain.
Christi
Thanks Christi - I just saw this reply; sincerely appreciated - thanks!
Kashmir Shaivism & Kabbalah actually both-each have some amazing correspondences, and at least a couple of Kabbalah scholars have theorized that they may have a common origin.
I agree that yoga is simple -- and Kashmir Shaivism (in my experiencing awareness), is simplicity itself ... though it may take a little patience-learning to get a feel for the template and symbolism ... as with Kabbalah ... which I've also found is simpler than it may seem at "first pass".
Yoga is simple enough, but since Samkhya (Patanjali's yoga) is inherently dualistic, it can get a little murky in spots (in my experiencing).
Kashmir Shaivism provides both the accurate map ... and the yoga to go with each major level of consiousness (the same triadic symbolism that all major religions use) -- which is why I really resonate with it.
And, I'm guessing the map you're describing points to the same reality: how awareness-consciousness actually operates; that's all that any descriptive system can point to, after all.
From the Kashmir Shaivism standpoint, Advaita just literally means: non-dual awareness ... from the standpoint of the only one who can really have it:
The "Shiva Awareness" of true nature; the subject that can never be an object; the unbound experiencer, aware that all form arises, displays and subsides in awareness -- which includes all consciousness and manifestation - from the cosmic to the the microcosmic.
If I understand the map you're outlining correctly, Kashmir Shaivism would equate the tattva of Ishvara with Cosmic Consciousness, and the tattva of Sadashiva with Divine Consciousness.
Sadashiva is Samana - unified mind, at the cosmic level; the upper limit of mind.
Beyond this is Unmana - literally, beyond mind - experiencing all form, gross and subtle in the universe, as displaying in your unaffected true nature of clear awareness.
Unmana is comprised of the tattvas of Shiva & Shakti - pure being, and its emanation ... from the standpoint of true nature, the Self, clear awareness beyond all form, and all that is reflecting in it, allowing it to know and experience itself, now.
Unlimited clear awareness is contained within-as Shakti - in the tattvas of Sadashiva, Ishvara and Suddhavidya.
After this - after pure subjectivity gives way to identification with form ... the concept of Maya and its limitations begin ... and identification with objectivity takes place as Purusha-Prakriti .... followed by the twenty-four tattvas of limited mind/thinking ... and ending with physical manifestation - Prthivi, or Earth.
As with Kabbalah, the more objective-gross are contained within the more subjective-subtle.
And so, even awareness of universe-as-self, universe-as-body -- Sadasiva -- isn't what Kashmir Shaivism would define as utter non-duality.
That's held only by Shivashakti - Being-Moving .. containing everything ... knowing nothing other than itself ... the place, as Christian Mystic Meister Eckhart cited as being "where distinction never gazed".
And that's not to say there's anything wrong or incorrect about the way you're using advaita ... neither I, nor anyone connected with Kashmir Shaivism, who I know or know of, is at all picky about how terminology is used (another reason I like Kashmir Shaivism).
It, like Kabbalah, is ultimately more about being a container, or template, for all possible states of being-consciousness-manifestion -- which it sounds like you're pretty much describing as well ... just with the term advaita in a slightly different, yet still-logical, place.
And thanks for the clarification; I didn't think we could be looking at it too differently, and it doesn't seem we are (though if we are, that's fine, too).
I just wanted to understand what you were saying -- and I think I do -- and so: thanks!
What you say about Amma, and other realized beings, with respect to their energy, and being around others, is interesting; hadn't heard that before.
Intending Advaita in Experiencing for All,
Kirtanman |
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miguel
Spain
1197 Posts |
Posted - Jul 24 2009 : 03:51:13 AM
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Thanks christi.She will be here i spain in october.
Im thinking about going to see her.
Is good to see that she still practice.Its wonderful,an infinite journey!It never ends! |
Edited by - miguel on Jul 24 2009 04:17:50 AM |
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Ananda
3115 Posts |
Posted - Jul 25 2009 : 12:10:32 PM
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brother miguel, don't think just go it's a great opportunity for expanding you have nothing to lose and i wish people like that could come and visit my country.
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Parallax
USA
348 Posts |
Posted - Jul 25 2009 : 5:55:00 PM
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Hey Christi and Miguel!!
Which Amma are we talking about?? The hugging saint? |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Jul 26 2009 : 11:30:52 AM
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Hi Parallax
quote:
Hey Christi and Miguel!!
Which Amma are we talking about?? The hugging saint?
That's the one. Sri Amritanandamayi a.k.a the hugging mother, or Amma for short.
http://www.amritapuri.org/amma/
Christi |
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Jul 26 2009 : 12:50:12 PM
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Hi Christi,
Interesting post.
quote:
have met people who are so evolved that they have to severely limit the amount of time that humans can spend in their presence to just a few minutes a day, in order to avoid damaging them on an energetic level. I have also met one man who had to limit his contact with humans to just a few seconds at a time.
How would it be damaging to people to be around say Amma for extended periods? In other words, how does the energy affect others, how would it manifest? Would it be a physical impact, affect their behaviour, etc.?
Any insight appreciated.
Thanks,
A
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Ananda
3115 Posts |
Posted - Jul 26 2009 : 3:04:35 PM
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brother Christy, i've heard about guys like the ones you mentioned and there are some like them in the suffi traditions.
but they and even Amma seem to have a lack of control on themselves if the case is like that for there are others and even greater teachers than those who where around people all the time don't wanna name but i can mention people like the Buddha and Abou el qassem bou el kher a suffi saint in case you are in Tunis i suggest you go and visit for he seems to be able of giving darshan and direct perception to others in an under control and very safe manner.
kindest regards,
Ananda |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Jul 26 2009 : 6:23:59 PM
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Hi Ananda,
quote:
brother Christy, i've heard about guys like the ones you mentioned and there are some like them in the suffi traditions.
but they and even Amma seem to have a lack of control on themselves if the case is like that for there are others and even greater teachers than those who where around people all the time don't wanna name but i can mention people like the Buddha and Abou el qassem bou el kher a suffi saint in case you are in Tunis i suggest you go and visit for he seems to be able of giving darshan and direct perception to others in an under control and very safe manner.
Please don't get me wrong... in the case of Amma, she does give darshan in a controlled and safe manner. She gives darshan to thousands of people every day, and there is no ambulance outside waiting to take people away.
But she does control the amount of time that people spend close to her physical body, and she does this in order to keep the whole process safe. Some people, who she knows can handle the degree of radiant energy that she is emitting, are allowed to spend longer periods of time close to her. Others, who she knows can cope with less, are sent away to sit at a safer distance. She needs to keep the charge high, as she is channelling divine light into thousands of people a day. So far she has given darshan to 24 million people.
The majority of cases where I saw people coming into trouble energetically from being too close to Amma for too long, was when they ignored her requests to move to a safer distance. Some people simply stayed put, even when asked to move, and they suffered later for it. I don't think Amma can be blamed for that.
The Buddha was not teaching primarily through shaktipat (transmission of divine energy), so he did not need to worry so much about the energetics involved.
The man I met who had to restrict his contact with humans to just a few seconds a day, no longer had a physical body. He was one of the ascended masters.
I know that in the Sufi tradition many masters use divine radiance as a principal method of transformation for their students. If I am ever in Tunisia it would simply be a joy to meet Abou el qassem bou el kher. Maybe we will go and visit him together one day?
Christi
“Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father.” [ Mathew, 13.43]
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Edited by - Christi on Jul 26 2009 7:19:06 PM |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4514 Posts |
Posted - Jul 26 2009 : 6:41:56 PM
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Hi Anthem,
quote:
How would it be damaging to people to be around say Amma for extended periods? In other words, how does the energy affect others, how would it manifest? Would it be a physical impact, affect their behaviour, etc.?
Any insight appreciated.
Thanks,
The energetic radiance, being emitted by a master has a similar effect on the subtle nervous system as energetic spiritual practices do. In other words if you spend too much time near a high level master, you could expect to experience the same symptoms of overload as if you were practicing too much pranayama or meditation every day. Headaches, skin rashes, irritability, shaking, confusion, feelings of burning inside etc. Adyashanti was once asked about this process and he said it was as if you had a room full of guitars, and you pluck a string on the guitar in the middle of the room. All the strings of the same pitch will vibrate automatically in the room. In the case of humans, the cord is the central channel (sushumna nadi), so energetic radiance is working directly on this nadi. Of course, most people who are radiating spiritual energy at a level where it could be damaging to others will have an open and active crown chakra, so energetic radiance activates the sushumna nadi between root and crown as much as between root and brow. This is one reason why it needs to be self paced carefully.
Christi
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Anthem
1608 Posts |
Posted - Jul 26 2009 : 11:25:50 PM
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| Thanks Christi for sharing your perspective, I see it a similar way too. |
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Ananda
3115 Posts |
Posted - Jul 27 2009 : 01:39:15 AM
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thank you for clarifying brother, and hopefully so if i ever get the chance to be able to take a trip out of lebanon but in case you're there yourself we can arrange a meeting for you if you like.
love |
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newtoayp
USA
8 Posts |
Posted - Jul 30 2009 : 4:24:02 PM
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Dear Kirtanman,
I started reading about Kashmiri Shaivism last month and know very little but was really fascinated. But then I also read on Buddhist forums that Hindu paths like advaita and kashmiri shaivism are samsaric paths which can only grant rebirth but not freedom from samsara. I don;t understand much but it seems because these methods have some conception of a god or universal self and not empty of everything. I am really confused. If someone who understands both views can explain in simple words for a simpleton if there is more to the yoga and other Hindu paths apart from higher rebirth, much of my confusion would end.
sarve janaa sukhino bhavantu |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jul 30 2009 : 8:12:44 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by newtoayp
Dear Kirtanman,
I started reading about Kashmiri Shaivism last month and know very little but was really fascinated. But then I also read on Buddhist forums that Hindu paths like advaita and kashmiri shaivism are samsaric paths which can only grant rebirth but not freedom from samsara. I don;t understand much but it seems because these methods have some conception of a god or universal self and not empty of everything. I am really confused. If someone who understands both views can explain in simple words for a simpleton if there is more to the yoga and other Hindu paths apart from higher rebirth, much of my confusion would end.
sarve janaa sukhino bhavantu
Hi NewToAYP,
There's a lot of back-and-forth of that type, between systems - ironically, at times, between the most (allegedly) non-dual systems.
The back-and-forth can be ignored.
Any non-dual system, whether grouped under Hinduism, or Buddhism (or any other "ism"), can serve as a fairly clear map home, once the symbols are understood.
But maps are not territories; menus are not food.
Tantric/Non-Dual systems (Kashmir Shaivism, Vajrayana Buddhism, Dzogchen, etc.) actually have much more in common with each other, than they do with their allegedly "parent" religion (Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism in the case of Kabbalah, etc.).
Kashmir Shaivism groups the distinctions between philosophies as Non-Dual, Partially Dual, and Dualistic (the Saiva Agamas, the Shaivite scriptures are divided according to these classifications).
In my experiencing, the more non-dual a system is, the more clearly it can serve as Another Useful Map (AUM) - because reality is non-dual; all experiencing occurs in a single field of awareness ... regardless of whether it is subject, object, subject-perceiving-object, or unified awareness knowing-being all this I am.
And, by the way:
The ultimate state of being (as Kashmir Shavism says) the ultimate subject -- the subject which can never be an object; original awareness, the natural state, buddha nature, etc. etc. etc. are all indicators of the same reality.
Anyone who cares to debate about the terminology may be speaking *of* the ultimate state ... but they're not speaking *from* it.
How accessible is the ultimate state?
It's what is reading these words right now.
And how to know, with all these different systems, which is correct?
By becoming it.
Only by becoming it can you be knowing.
Knowledge is bondage.
Knowing is liberation.
There's actually a living system, producing realization in "realtime" now, that is the equivalent ... or possibly even greater ..... than any of these.
Its name?
Advanced Yoga Practices.
It's what works for me.
Kashmir Shaivism became of interest for me only when the states produced by AYP practice needed some clarity ... yet the evolution of AYP is now containing, expressing, sharing and fulfilling all of the traditions held in memory from the past - thanks to Yogani, and thanks to all the AYPers, and practitioners of similar or similarly-effective systems who post here, and share the results of their practices, results and in some cases, awakening/opening/realization (not as an "end result" .. as Yogani says: "No special claims, here" ... special claims are the purview of limited mind).
Ultimately, the words used to describe the route don't matter.
If a map is accurate, its directions can be given in Devanagari (Sanskrit), Tibetan, Mandarin, Roman characters (English), Hebrew .... or any other character set or symbol-set .. and you'll still get/realize home, just fine.
It's the following of the map that's important -- not the language of its symbol-set, or the specifics of its symbols.
Many teachings are quite pure; it's the confusion of limited mind which makes them seem otherwise.
Home is real.
Home is all that's real.
Home is non-duality.
Home is right here.
Realizing-Knowing-Sharing this all is the true advaita.
Advaito'ham.
(I Am Non-Duality.)
May Knowing-Living This Consciously Be So For All,
Kirtanman |
Edited by - Kirtanman on Jul 30 2009 9:15:31 PM |
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newtoayp
USA
8 Posts |
Posted - Jul 30 2009 : 8:44:01 PM
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Many thanks, such words of encouragement do mean a lot to me. It is just that when people say I am wasting time with Yoga or Kashmiri shaivism as it will lead me nowhere and to follow Buddhism to make some real spiritual progress, I get confused. The confusion was because on tao bums a Buddhist said, not all non-dual schools are really non-dual and won't lead one to anything more than some bliss and heat. I was reading something like that on e-sangha and wondered if all paths lead to same truth was actually a new age idea like these Buddhists said. I think I need to stop paying attention to all that and focus on practicing.
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Edited by - newtoayp on Jul 30 2009 9:02:18 PM |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jul 30 2009 : 9:27:17 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by newtoayp
Many thanks, such words of encouragement do mean a lot to me.
Awesome to hear; glad my comments were useful.
Basically, the important system ... the best system ... is the system that works for you ... that awakens you to your true nature .... which isn't exotic ... isn't Buddhist or Hindu ..... but rather, is simply a map pointing you to the real .... simply pointing you to who you actually are - before all the thinking and concepts -- right here, right now.
If there's a lot of debate ... that debate is occurring at the level of thinking, conceptual mind .... which is not where reality is to be found.
Thinking is a subset of reality ... or it could be said that thinking happens *in* reality ... but thinking itself ... especially thinking that reality can be described or found by thinking -- especially "my thinking vs. your thinking" .... is a great tool ...... if continued dreaming is the goal.
If awakening/realization is what's intended ... that is never found by focus ... but by opening ... unclutching ..... relaxing into the openness of the real.
And that is what AYP helps us do/know/be.
Welcome - I hope you find AYP and this forum helpful!
Intending the Knowing of Reality; the Reality of Knowing; the Loving of Living; the Living of Loving - for All,
Kirtanman
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machart
USA
342 Posts |
Posted - Jul 30 2009 : 11:01:35 PM
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quote:
I think I need to stop paying attention to all that and focus on practicing.
Two monkey thumbs way up on THAT thought!
Welcome newtoayp! |
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Practice Shifting Toward Advaita (non-duality)
