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karl
United Kingdom
1812 Posts |
 Posted - Jul 04 2009 : 3:11:21 PM
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I have read Yogani's book and many others and in an intellectual sense I get it, in any other way I just cannot. Infact, it's weird, I read something about it and the moment I have read the words it's as though I have completely lost the sense of it.
For some reason I get the image of the Mona Lisa, the enigma of not understanding something even though it seems to be right in front of me.
I dont really understand the 'who is this thought occuring to?' and 'who am I?' asking either of those questions just results in the answer 'me'. I seem to get that 'me' is the more subjective and 'I' the more objective, but maybe thats just in the way the words are used.
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AYPforum
351 Posts |
Posted - Jul 04 2009 : 3:27:30 PM
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jul 04 2009 : 7:22:15 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by karl
I dont really understand the 'who is this thought occuring to?' and 'who am I?' asking either of those questions just results in the answer 'me'. I seem to get that 'me' is the more subjective and 'I' the more objective, but maybe thats just in the way the words are used.
Hi Karl,
You get this -- you just don't know you get this.
I get that you get it, because I just read your White Canvas analogy.
Realize that you're not looking *for* anything ..... you're looking, viewing, in actuality *from* the unformed clarity of your original awareness ... which is always, ever and only the White Canvas, now.
Just as, between drum beats is the silence containing all possible drum beats ... between moments of perception/specific thoughts ... is the gap of {silence, space, pure potentiality} containing all possibility.
Per the laws .... or, ultimately, maybe more like .... serving suggestions ...  ... of probability .... the next manifestation, in experience, after the hearing/creating of a drum beat .... is likely to be the hearing/creating of another drum beat.
Potentiality is infinite, patterns are probable.
Likewise, the thought that feels like "me experiencing this moment", is likely to create-be created after the infinity-eternity of the usually too brief to be noticed gap between momentary perception ... on the physical-mental planes of form, at least ... as a very slight different "me" experiencing a very slightly different moment.
Wondering, with thinking mind, about inquiry ... about whether it's "I" or "me" that is the more objective (and, just FYI - although both are designators only -- to help avoid confusion, it's usually the reverse of what you've stated - "me" is the more objective, "I" is the more subjective .... understanding that objectivity occurs within subjectivity, and is the more limited phase of consciousness) .....
Thinking, word-based inquiry is like drum beats trying to understand the deepest mysteries of drum beats with drum beats ..... or the Mona Lisa asking "What is this smile about?" ... with only the dried paint of her existing form as a toolset.
You can't understand the dynamics of light, frames and film from within the movie.
Step back --- step IN ---- Open --- Just Notice --- what's HERE when it's Silent? What's HERE when thought isn't creating perception of "my body" or "my mind".
If you have sufficient inner silence ... you'll notice something like Space ... something like Emptiness ... yet Awareness .... there is no delineated Spacetime HERE ... only Spaciousness .... Only HERE .... Only THIS ....
What is THIS?
Tattvam Asi ----- That (This) --- You Are.
Inquiry isn't about thought .... inquiry is about relaxing and opening the Awareness that Is Living (Every Moment) back into the infinity which precedes, supersedes and succeeds the forming of every moment.
Where is it found?
In the gap between formed moments.
As Adyashanti says:
"Slip now into the space between thoughts and exit the dream."
Thought-based inquiry is dead and frustrating.
Ask with your attention and your heart .... in the field of open, silent awareness .... just notice .... not in thoughts/thinking ..... just .... notice ... only ... open ..... in the silence .... what's *really* here?
I hope this helps.
With Liberty & Just This for All,
Kirtanman
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Edited by - Kirtanman on Jul 05 2009 10:48:17 AM |
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chinna
United Kingdom
241 Posts |
Posted - Jul 05 2009 : 6:36:19 PM
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Hi Karl
Another powerful enquiry, which avoids this tendency to objectify 'I', is "From where is all of this seen?" (or heard or felt, etc). When you enquire deeply in this way, you will see that the 'where' can never be identified. And when the non-existence of the 'where' is truly realised, the non-existence of the 'all of this' is also obvious. And then you are home.
A further enquiry which avoids the 'I' problem, and is more difficult than the above, but also very powerful, is to attempt to direct your attention to the faculty of attention itself.
The 'proof of the pudding' is in the enquiring. It's inevitable that ideas about self-enquiry will appear to be grasped briefly but will then slip away from us. What we are trying to think about cannot be captured in words, or indeed at all. It IS, when we are not.
chinna |
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YogaIsLife
641 Posts |
Posted - Jul 06 2009 : 09:53:15 AM
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I found I have the same problems than Karl and although sometimes I think I can understand that there is no 'I' or the idea of 'pure awareness', etc., it is a tough thing to realise and actualise. It is something that can't be really conceptualised I think and all the ways people point into a way of inquiry ('who is seeing this?' for example) are just pointers and may usually be not very useful if you haven't already had a flash of that pure awareness, and that is the tricky part I think.
For example Chinna, I found your post very clear and helpful. But the problem remains. I think it is almost as if a click is needed, a switch, a definite shift in conscioussness and the way things are seen. It seems to me that this cannot be made come about by one's will or effort or is it? If not maybe better to not care at all?
Sometimes I feel I might go 'mad' if I keep on inquiring "Who am I?" etc. Why is this? Probably the mind can#t take it? I stop it when I reach that stage and realise that I am probably not mature enough to be able to realise ultimate reality. So I let it be  But can somethign be done about this?
Thanks! |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Jul 06 2009 : 3:08:33 PM
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For the longest time I had no idea how to work with that kind of inquiry, and I still don't like it. To me it was very helpful to identify the mind first. To separate the mind "I" from the awareness. So, it may be helpful for some people to work with the question "who am I" or 'who is this thought occurring to?' but every time I tried that my mind came back with the answer "me". It was really frustrating!!!
To me the most helpful things was doing Byron Katie's Work. This was my first glimpse into how my mind was keeping me bound to my suffering. As I worked further with it I discovered Mind Filters, and as I worked more and more with identifying mind stories and separating the stories form "what is", I had my first opening on seeing how "I" was not this person I always thought I was (Five Stages). This was my first step into getting "I" was not "me".
Inquiring into "who am I" has worked for many, but it did not work for me. I needed to use a different route to get to the answer you get by asking "who am I". Maybe you can find your own way too Karl.
PS: I had the wrong topic (Something to try...) linked to the topic "five stage". I have fixed it. Sorry about that. |
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CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Jul 06 2009 : 3:11:23 PM
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I find it much more fruitful to inquire into "who I am not" then "who I am". That is just me though. Everyone is different.
Love,
Carson |
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YogaIsLife
641 Posts |
Posted - Jul 06 2009 : 4:01:51 PM
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Hi Shanti,
Read the posts you pointed at and found them beautiful, heartfelt and helpful. Thanks for sharing.
I can understand what you say about labels and stories and random feelings with no story attached. It is great to see (and thanks for sharing again) how you have been working on it over time and the progress you have achieved. As you said - baby steps :) That in itself is a lesson.
It can be hard to notice the feelings and accept them for what they are, but then again if it wasn't we probably wouldn't be here anyway. It is the work to be done, for the well being of ourselves and others I guess. Thanks for the inspiration. It keeps hope alive. |
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Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Jul 06 2009 : 4:27:39 PM
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Thanks YIL.
Yes baby steps. A journey of a thousand miles begins with but a single step. 
PS: I had the wrong topic linked to the five stage. I have fixed it. Sorry about that. |
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JDas
USA
74 Posts |
Posted - Jul 07 2009 : 03:39:44 AM
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Tks for that Kirtanman, nice. And tks to Karl for posing the ques.
And tks for the reference to Adyashanti. Like his simplicity. He's coming to Philly where I live and might check out his satsang.
So tks tks tks tks.
Jon
quote:
Originally posted by Kirtanman
quote:
Originally posted by karl
I dont really understand the 'who is this thought occuring to?' and 'who am I?' asking either of those questions just results in the answer 'me'. I seem to get that 'me' is the more subjective and 'I' the more objective, but maybe thats just in the way the words are used.
Hi Karl,
You get this -- you just don't know you get this.
I get that you get it, because I just read your White Canvas analogy.
Realize that you're not looking *for* anything ..... you're looking, viewing, in actuality *from* the unformed clarity of your original awareness ... which is always, ever and only the White Canvas, now.
Just as, between drum beats is the silence containing all possible drum beats ... between moments of perception/specific thoughts ... is the gap of {silence, space, pure potentiality} containing all possibility.
Per the laws .... or, ultimately, maybe more like .... serving suggestions ... ... of probability .... the next manifestation, in experience, after the hearing/creating of a drum beat .... is likely to be the hearing/creating of another drum beat.
Potentiality is infinite, patterns are probable.
Likewise, the thought that feels like "me experiencing this moment", is likely to create-be created after the infinity-eternity of the usually too brief to be noticed gap between momentary perception ... on the physical-mental planes of form, at least ... as a very slight different "me" experiencing a very slightly different moment.
Wondering, with thinking mind, about inquiry ... about whether it's "I" or "me" that is the more objective (and, just FYI - although both are designators only -- to help avoid confusion, it's usually the reverse of what you've stated - "me" is the more objective, "I" is the more subjective .... understanding that objectivity occurs within subjectivity, and is the more limited phase of consciousness) .....
Thinking, word-based inquiry is like drum beats trying to understand the deepest mysteries of drum beats with drum beats ..... or the Mona Lisa asking "What is this smile about?" ... with only the dried paint of her existing form as a toolset.
You can't understand the dynamics of light, frames and film from within the movie.
Step back --- step IN ---- Open --- Just Notice --- what's HERE when it's Silent? What's HERE when thought isn't creating perception of "my body" or "my mind".
If you have sufficient inner silence ... you'll notice something like Space ... something like Emptiness ... yet Awareness .... there is no delineated Spacetime HERE ... only Spaciousness .... Only HERE .... Only THIS ....
What is THIS?
Tattvam Asi ----- That (This) --- You Are.
Inquiry isn't about thought .... inquiry is about relaxing and opening the Awareness that Is Living (Every Moment) back into the infinity which precedes, supersedes and succeeds the forming of every moment.
Where is it found?
In the gap between formed moments.
As Adyashanti says:
"Slip now into the space between thoughts and exit the dream."
Thought-based inquiry is dead and frustrating.
Ask with your attention and your heart .... in the field of open, silent awareness .... just notice .... not in thoughts/thinking ..... just .... notice ... only ... open ..... in the silence .... what's *really* here?
I hope this helps.
With Liberty & Just This for All,
Kirtanman
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jul 08 2009 : 1:49:47 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Konchok Ösel Dorje
From Drubpon Rinpoche:
quote:
One should never leave the state of seeing the mind. If we don’t know how to look at our mind, then we should research space, and try to feel how the mind is. When we have a feel for space, then we can look at our mind. Space is like the example of mind. When our mind is in the natural state, the thoughts will naturally dissolve. Mahamudra is not like trying to watch thoughts or catch anything, it will not keep you busy. It is very peaceful and stable. When we begin to practice mahamudra we can practice one minute or two minutes and expand to one hour and more. When we give up distinguishing, then it doesn’t matter if there are thoughts or no thoughts, the thoughts do not effect us.
Perfect!
_/\_
I had a feeling we were saying the same thing in different ways, and per this beautiful, powerful and accurate quotation, we (including Adyashanti) are, if not saying the exact same thing, teaching/sharing the same pointers truth/reality -- just expressed in slightly different ways.
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YogaIsLife
641 Posts |
Posted - Jul 08 2009 : 3:46:34 PM
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Yes. Adyashanti actually said something that I think it's quite true and I also heard it said elsewhere, including Yogani. It is that the self-inquiry thing (with questions such as "Who am I") it's probably more useful for people who are ready to awaken, who are nearly there, almost ripe. In AYP terms that would be people with 'enough inner silence present'. For all the rest of us we can keep on meditating and using all other methods at our disposal (quite a few and powerful ones at that!) to get there. It is possible!
I find that as we progress we rely more and more in our own experiences and inner guidance, rather than trying to fit one of the many paradigms that the teachers, with all their good intentions, throw at us. Finally, it is in us we will find the truth, and all the confusion will finally clear. Aleluia! |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jul 08 2009 : 11:00:13 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by YogaIsLife
It is possible!
Finally, it is in us we will find the truth, and all the confusion will finally clear. Aleluia!
Beautiful, YIL - & - Yes, Indeed - you will.
You can't "not" - this truth you're seeking with the truth you're seeking - is who you/we each and all actually *are*.
And yes, it's the silence/silent awareness, which helps break the choke-hold of thinking that *is* Maya.
And also well know/remember what it's like to "not know" - we all go through that, until we don't any longer.
Basically, the two things I *know* will help, are:
*Daily practices.
*Stop believing in the value of thinking.
Body-minds are *so* culturally conditioned that "if it doesn't make sense to me", if "it's not logical or rational" that it can't be real or valid -- or, that if I get irritated or sad or whatever ... that the Holy Enlightenment Fairy hasn't descended and blessed me via the Wand of Woo-Hoo Enlightenment.
Both "I'm enlightened!" & "I'm not enlightened!" are equally likely to be equally untrue thoughts.
And neither has anything at all to do with actual enlightenment.
The light of silence breaks through ... it shines away the detritus of conditioned thinking .... enlightenment ensues.
Practices and inquiry are the two pillars that help erase the illusion of delay/facilitate awakening (<- erasing/facilitating are two perspectives, two sides of the same coin -- awake and dreaming -- for the same apparent process.)
As one of Adyashanti's teachers, Arvis Justi says:
"Only the phonies don't get enlightened."
Carry on ..... it's not only about three zillion times more worthwhile than you think ..... but three zillion times more wortwhile than you *can* think.
In Gratitude For All,
Kirtanman |
Edited by - Kirtanman on Jul 09 2009 9:43:43 PM |
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Kirtanman
USA
1651 Posts |
Posted - Jul 08 2009 : 11:23:51 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Konchok Ösel Dorje
Adyashanti's instruction to go between thoughts is wrong, because it is asking you to shun and reject what arises. This concern is an attachment and hence an obstruction.
Hi Konchok,
Just to hopefully clarify a bit, I was quoting a line from a poem of Adya's, in connection with a post describing aspects of my own (quote-unquote) experiencing of the inquiry process.
As it seems you are aware, per other posts of yours:
It is not that thoughts are a problem - it's that belief in, and attachment to thoughts ("I am who I think I am, and what I think is real.") which obscure reality.
Simply being with all as it arises is a fine practice, but certainly not the only useful one.
Noticing that there is a space between thoughts and perceptions, and "slipping between" them, is a technique; that's all -- but it's one which has proven effective for many yogis and yoginis for at least a thousand years (that we have written records of), and quite a bit longer than that, per oral traditions in both Tantric Hindu & Tantric Buddhist systems.
It's kind of like asking "Who Am I?" or "Where is the center?" -- it's simply a way, as all inquiry is, to help the experience of awareness expand beyond the constrictions of illusory, limited thinking.
Of 112 techniques given in the Vijnanabhairava, exactly 112 of them are designed to help awareness find, and use the "gap".
Concepts and terms, as you know ... can be potentially problematic ... so please know (as I'm guessing you may, per previous posts) that the "gap" is just a description of how it *appears* from the standpoint of limited mind.
Every moment originates in silent awareness.
Awareness moves, and creates general forming.
General forming creates specific forming.
Specific forming manifests.
Repeat as desire.
*However* .... most practitioners don't experience awareness this way .. there's too much identifying with the wave-foam of thinking to notice a gap, let alone to experience the actual creation, preservation and destruction of the universe of perception, every moment now.
That's where the silence experienced in meditation comes in.
That's where the gap comes in.
That's where just sitting, being, noticing, inquiring come in.
Is just sitting with thought better than "finding the gap"?
Depends on if it contributes to realization in the body-mind conducting the practice, I would say (and have experienced/am experiencing).
Here's a great video of Adyashanti's which will help clarify, I feel, that there are quite a few useful toolsets, based in/on a certain view ... which helps identification with illusory multiplicity open into its reality as unity living as multiplicity.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3WwS07wbJ0
(In the video, Adyashanti elaborates upon exactly what he meant, by the line from the poem I quoted .... the title of the video is Relationship With Thought.)
Hope this helps.
In Gratitude For All,
Kirtanman |
Edited by - Kirtanman on Jul 08 2009 11:25:00 PM |
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Sparkle
Ireland
1457 Posts |
Posted - Jul 09 2009 : 03:56:35 AM
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quote:
Every moment originates in silent awareness.
Awareness moves, and creates general forming.
General forming creates specific forming.
Specific forming manifests.
Repeat as desire.
Beautiful Kirtanman thanks |
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YogaIsLife
641 Posts |
Posted - Jul 09 2009 : 10:04:52 AM
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For me what works is this:
- stop believing (or even caring for) whatever anybody else says it is like or should be like (this only creates constructs in the mind - can be helpful for a while but have to be abandoned at some point)
- keep asking who has the experiences "you" are having, whatever the experience may be.
But above all don't force yourself! It is all following its way. Like it was repeated so many times before - you ARE the truth, it is already there. So just trust you'll find it. It is indeed a mixture of wanting it badly and at the same time not caring at all if you get it because, in a way, you already have it (it is there every single moment no?). Tough, hein?
It is so much fun to play with words... |
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chinna
United Kingdom
241 Posts |
Posted - Jul 12 2009 : 5:20:04 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by YogaIsLife
For example Chinna, I found your post very clear and helpful. But the problem remains. I think it is almost as if a click is needed, a switch, a definite shift in conscioussness and the way things are seen. It seems to me that this cannot be made come about by one's will or effort or is it? If not maybe better to not care at all?
Sometimes I feel I might go 'mad' if I keep on inquiring "Who am I?" etc. Why is this? Probably the mind can#t take it? I stop it when I reach that stage and realise that I am probably not mature enough to be able to realise ultimate reality. So I let it be But can somethign be done about this?
Thanks!
Yes, a click or shift in consciousness is a good way to put it. And yes, imagining that banging on at self-eqnuiry as a matter of will-power can get you there is a mistake. The enquiry needs to be real, from the heart, a perseverance in curiosity, not a mechanism. You need to fall in love with this enquiry process, to be fascinated by it. This may happen by falling in love with a teacher who points along this path, or just coming upon the yoga of self-enquiry and realising it is what you have been doing all your life.
If that teacher hasn't come along yet, or if it is AYP, then just keep going with the practices and invoke self-enquiry occasionally when you think of it during the day, as a real enquiry not a mechanism, even as a fun enquiry. The late Douglas Harding's 'On Having No Head' (there's website too) was a really creative fun approach, which demystified it all and made it real. Easy to underestimate him, since the exercises he offers are so everyday, but a jnani he was for sure, and the exercises can provoke a profound shift, or click, and have done so for many.
Reading Nisargadatta's 'I AM THAT' and other texts can also create the shift/click in people, and has done for many. It also helps in that he shows how real the enquiry is - there is no sense of just using 'Who am I?' as a repetitive question. It's a real deep challenging fascinating philosophical enquiry, and so one sees how deep and wide self-enquiry is......infinitely so. Not just a little question repeated like a magic spell until it 'works'.
An infinite question, which creates a subtle shift, which opens an infinite perspective. When you see how infinite the question is, the shift has happened.
I say 'a aubtle shift', and in perspective it is, but psycho-physically it brings with it Ma Kundalini too, if she hasn't already made her presence felt. So I'm sure Yogani is right - the easiest way is to do all the yogas, and then when the jnana-shift happens, it's not such a shock.
Happy enquiring, and stay cool with it , become so familiar with this exploration that it is part of you, that it is your self, so that in a sense, as you say, you no longer care about an outcome, the enquiry is the life and the life is enquiry
chinna
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This self inquiry thing ?
