|
|
 |
|
| Author |
 Topic  |
|
brother neil
USA
752 Posts |
 Posted - Jun 18 2009 : 02:22:43 AM
|
when it is all broken down, life is. How, and why dont really matter, cause life is. I believe yogani may even agree. SO if life is, why is it that people with this understanding will say they came here to serve a purpose?
just some thoughts
brother Neil
|
Edited by - AYPforum on Jun 18 2009 10:59:14 AM |
|
|
Shanti
USA
4854 Posts |
Posted - Jun 18 2009 : 07:35:41 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by brother neil
when it is all broken down, life is. How, and why dont really matter, cause life is. I believe yogani may even agree. SO if life is, why is it that people with this understanding will say they came here to serve a purpose?
just some thoughts
brother Neil
IMHO....  ...A person who has realized life is.. does not say s/he is here to serve a purpose... s/he is just living life... it's the ones who have not realized "life just is" apply the labels and determine what the purpose of the realized ones life is.  |
 |
|
|
Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Jun 18 2009 : 07:41:56 AM
|
| We can serve a true purpose by the way we interact with other beings. That is where our choices have meaning; nowhere else. |
|
|
|
grihastha
USA
184 Posts |
Posted - Jun 18 2009 : 08:09:17 AM
|
Aha. Self-justification. Gives rise to notions of sacrifice ('I reincarnated to help you, you ungrateful ****'). Next thing you know, you're the proud owner of 80 Rollers...
On the other hand, if enlightenment comes in the middle of life and without mahasamadhi, ie you're stuck here with all that boundless awareness on your hands, you might as well DO something useful with it.
Nah, it's a paradox, all right. |
|
|
|
grihastha
USA
184 Posts |
Posted - Jun 18 2009 : 08:10:21 AM
|
| In other words, what Shanti said... |
|
|
|
AYPforum
351 Posts |
Posted - Jun 18 2009 : 10:59:14 AM
|
| Moderator note: Topic moved for better placement |
|
|
|
brother neil
USA
752 Posts |
Posted - Jun 18 2009 : 11:07:17 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by AYPforum
Moderator note: Topic moved for better placement
but I wanted it to be front page news
satsang cafe is the place to be |
|
|
|
CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Jun 18 2009 : 11:16:53 AM
|
But you are oh so philisophical Brother Neil .....
On the topic itself though.....I think that those who reach a point of "stillness in action" 24/7 stop having ambitions of their "own". They cease to see things from a "me/mine" type of perspective and become "mere" outlets for Divine purpose/will. So if someone of this level of Realization said "I came here to serve a purpose" I think they would not be meaning "their own" purpose, but instead "The Divine Purpose".
Love,
Carson |
|
|
|
grihastha
USA
184 Posts |
Posted - Jun 18 2009 : 12:20:18 PM
|
| Ah, but is there any Divine Purpose in non-duality? |
|
|
|
CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Jun 18 2009 : 12:29:44 PM
|
I can't say from personal experience as I do not live in a state of Unity, but I would posit that ALL is Divine Purpose. Life is it's own Divine Purpose. I would suggest that in the beginning there was The Ultimate Creator/Infinity......what some might consider "God". "God" at some point had a "thought". I would think that this "thought" would have been to realize Itself for what it was...thus creating "finity" which began to express itself through physical manifestation and through Free Will. This allowed all the seemingly "finite" beings an opportunity to choose to "remember" where they came from or what their true nature is. This would be the "Divine Purpose" from my perspective. For the Infinite to allow itself to become Finite and forget who it truly is, so that over time it can choose to come to the Realization of it's True Nature, which is Infinite. This is only a theory at this point though.
Love,
Carson |
|
|
|
grihastha
USA
184 Posts |
Posted - Jun 18 2009 : 1:01:10 PM
|
Absolutely. Pretty much Kashmir Shaivism in a nutshell...
But there's still a paradox. "God" abides in satchitananda, absolute consciousness/absolute bliss, forever beyond duality, and therefore beyond purpose. So God has to harness purpose in order to achieve purposelessness.
Hey, if you lived in a state of Unity, you couldn't say anything from personal experience - or anyway, that's what we're here to find out, yeh?
Love!
g |
|
|
|
CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Jun 18 2009 : 1:10:36 PM
|
Perhaps this is semantics but....
quote:
Originally posted by grihastha
"God" abides in satchitananda,
"God", Infinity doesn't "abide" in anything....Infinity IS satchitananda.....probably semantics.....
quote:
Originally posted by grihastha
So God has to harness purpose in order to achieve purposelessness.
I agree other then the use of the phrase "has to", which I think should read "chooses to".
Love,
Carson |
Edited by - CarsonZi on Jun 18 2009 1:45:37 PM |
|
|
|
grihastha
USA
184 Posts |
Posted - Jun 18 2009 : 1:39:33 PM
|
Good points, Carson.
If you divide 'God' into Shiva - pure consciousness - and Shakti, who you could call 'purpose,' you have God being both beyond purpose AND purposeful. So yeah, you have passive and active, imminent and transcendent, like milk and its whiteness. But the concept is that this is done without intent.
I dunno - I base my entire spiritual conception around the notion (and the earnest hope) that there is no Ultimate Creator and no purpose. I hate the idea of a divine plan, for some reason!
Unless, of course, the notion that God just wants to dance with God could be called purpose, in which case I'm right there...
Nameless and formless, as Sri Ramakrishna said, is how I ultimately understand 'God,' although it's my divine pleasure to see Ma in everything (self indulgent? Moi?).
|
Edited by - grihastha on Jun 18 2009 1:46:12 PM |
|
|
|
Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Jun 18 2009 : 1:39:52 PM
|
I don't think there is any such thing as "forever beyond duality" as long as there is a connection with this world we live in.
The purpose here is for everyone to become enlightened.
Until that is satisfied, there is a purpose.
You can choose to move on and ignore people who need help with enlightenment, and perceive everything as perfect just the way it is. Or you can choose to help people become enlightened.
You could say that time is a manifestation of duality, therefor everyone is already enlightened, but I would call that mental masturbation.
If you are communicating with words, and surviving by interacting with society, then there is duality in your life. There is nothing wrong with that. We can learn to live in this world and not let it touch us. Let that show in your eyes. |
|
|
|
CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Jun 18 2009 : 1:50:04 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by grihastha
I dunno - I base my entire spiritual conception around the notion (and the earnest hope) that there is no Ultimate Creator and no purpose. I hate the idea of a divine plan, for some reason!
Unless, of course, the notion that God just wants to dance with God could be called purpose, in which case I'm right there...
I believe there is an Ultimate Creator as well as a Divine Plan. But I see that plan as God dancing with God. And yes, this is the purpose....to forget Itself so that it can remember Itself. The Divine Dance. But this is only how I see it....self indulgent? Moi? hahahaha.
Love,
Carson |
Edited by - CarsonZi on Jun 18 2009 1:51:04 PM |
|
|
|
grihastha
USA
184 Posts |
Posted - Jun 18 2009 : 1:53:24 PM
|
Agreed, Etherfish, but that's not quite the same as understanding that one 'came here to serve a purpose.' quote:
The purpose here is for everyone to become enlightened.
Whose purpose? The purpose of unenlightened beings, as a consequence of unenlightenment? Or the purpose of the enlightened ones? If you go for that, you have to assume that God's purpose is to enlighten sentient beings. Doesn't that imply duality?
I'm only arguing for argument's sake, btw - I'm up for it if you are, but only to pass the time in the company of spiritual people, as the sages recommend... |
|
|
|
grihastha
USA
184 Posts |
Posted - Jun 18 2009 : 1:55:34 PM
|
quote:
But I see that plan as God dancing with God. And yes, this is the purpose....to forget Itself so that it can remember Itself. The Divine Dance.
Love it, CarsonZiji... |
|
|
|
CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Jun 18 2009 : 2:12:44 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by Etherfish
The purpose here is for everyone to become enlightened.
quote:
Originally posted by grihastha
Whose purpose?
The Ultimate Creator/Infinity's....
quote:
Originally posted by grihastha
If you go for that, you have to assume that God's purpose is to enlighten sentient beings. Doesn't that imply duality?
I don't like the word "enlighten"....I much prefer the word "remember". And I think if you look at this from a perspective of duality it certainly looks like God's purpose is to enlighten sentient beings, but if you look at it from a wider perspective, a more "playful" perspective perhaps, I think it is possible to see it as more of a grand game of "forget and remember"....all for the sake of having the experience of remembering over and over again because it is a pleasureable experience. It's not as much fun to live in Bliss for all eternity if you can't forget what Bliss is every once in a while so that you can re-remember and re-experience it again for the first time....over and over again. Kinda hard to put into words.
Love,
Carson
|
Edited by - CarsonZi on Jun 18 2009 2:15:24 PM |
|
|
|
grihastha
USA
184 Posts |
Posted - Jun 18 2009 : 2:21:51 PM
|
quote:
Kinda hard to put into words.
I think you did, though. Very well.
I'm all about the playful perspective - Lila, the play of Shakti: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lila. Creation as hide-and-seek... Namaste, CarsonZiji! |
|
|
|
CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Jun 18 2009 : 2:26:55 PM
|
I'm all over Lila! In fact I connect so much with this "concept" of "God's play" that my wife and I decided we would name our first daughter "Lila".... She ought to be a handful then eh? Much Love to you my friend.....wishing you well on your way home.
Love,
Carson |
|
|
|
grihastha
USA
184 Posts |
Posted - Jun 18 2009 : 2:35:52 PM
|
quote:
In fact I connect so much with this "concept" of "God's play" that my wife and I decided we would name our first daughter "Lila"....
Lucky, lucky child!
One of my girls popped her head round the door while I was deep in meditation the other day and called out: "Mum! Dad looks like Kali!" Yes, it's all about Lila!
Much love, brother! |
|
|
|
CarsonZi
Canada
3189 Posts |
Posted - Jun 18 2009 : 2:44:57 PM
|
Hahahaha....
 (my Kali face )
|
|
|
|
Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Jun 18 2009 : 5:46:46 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by grihastha
Agreed, Etherfish, but that's not quite the same as understanding that one 'came here to serve a purpose.' quote:
The purpose here is for everyone to become enlightened.
Whose purpose? The purpose of unenlightened beings, as a consequence of unenlightenment? Or the purpose of the enlightened ones? If you go for that, you have to assume that God's purpose is to enlighten sentient beings. Doesn't that imply duality?
The purpose of all-as-one. Yes I would assume that one of God's purposes is to enlighten all sentient beings. Doesn't have to imply duality, but we use duality as the medium by which to play the game.
If you break the jigsaw puzzle into 1000 pieces, then rebuild it, is it one thing or 1000? It's just semantics.
Why do you speak of duality as if it is anathema or something?
It's the water we all live in. We feel wonderful jumping out of it sometimes, but no use degrading it. It's not like non-duality is better than duality; that is a dual concept!
I think you guys covered it above; it's a game. Many would be horrified by this concept because of the horrible suffering. But what if each person suffering knew that the pain is not real, and that annihilation is impossible?
It's like going to the movies. I love watching death and destruction in a movie. But only because I know it's not real. In reality, I'm hesitant to swat a fly. |
|
|
|
grihastha
USA
184 Posts |
Posted - Jun 18 2009 : 9:13:51 PM
|
Hey Etherfish,
I understand God as complete non-duality because it's the only cosmology/theology that makes sense to me. Yes, it's all cliches and semantics, but it's the old story: I can't believe in a God who, as a distinct entity, witnesses Rwanda, AIDS, the Black Death etc etc and doesn't act. OR, as many believe, DOES act if approached in the right way, by the right people. Even worse.
You're right: we live in a dual world and duality is our only medium (unless we achieve jivanmukti of course). I just can't swallow purpose. Seems like it's more our destiny to achieve enlightenment, like birds migrating or salmon swimming up river. I don't think that's just semantics. It's an important distinction. My problem with this whole notion is that it immediately introduces the concept of good and bad to the process of attaining enlightenment. If it's our purpose to help everyone to enlightenment and we don't understand that or choose not to understand it, we are wrong. We're going against something. If everything's Lila, that doesn't apply.
I think I probably just agreed with you... :-] |
|
|
|
Etherfish
USA
3615 Posts |
Posted - Jun 18 2009 : 11:11:43 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by grihastha
Hey Etherfish,
I understand God as complete non-duality because it's the only cosmology/theology that makes sense to me. Yes, it's all cliches and semantics, but it's the old story: I can't believe in a God who, as a distinct entity, witnesses Rwanda, AIDS, the Black Death etc etc and doesn't act. OR, as many believe, DOES act if approached in the right way, by the right people. Even worse.
I think I probably just agreed with you... :-]
Oh, i think we are agreeing here. I don't think God "acts" either.
There is no need to because of the perfection of balanced forces he set up to begin with.
But I don't think purpose has to imply right or wrong. If you don't become enlightened or help others this life, you can do it later. It's not wrong to wait a lifetime or two or a hundred. That's what everybody does. |
|
|
|
divinefurball
USA
138 Posts |
Posted - Jun 19 2009 : 6:08:35 PM
|
Hi all. For intrests sake, this contribution of Hericlitus of Ephesus circa 500 BC:
"We should let ourselves be guided by what is commen to all. Yet though the Logos is commen to all, most men live as if each had a privite intelligence of his own"
"Men who love wisdom should aquaint themselves with a great many particulars"
"Time is a child moving counters in a game; the royal power is a childs".
"Let us not make arbitrary conjectures about the greatest matters"
"It is in changing that things find repose"
"This Universe which is the same for all, has not been made by any god or man, but it always has been, is, and will be - an ever living fire, kindling itself by regular measures and going out by regular measures."
"The fairest universe is but a heap of rubbish piled up at random".
"A mans character is his gaurdian divinity."
"Greater dooms win greater destinies"
"Even sleepers are workers and collaborators in what goes on in the universe".
"The thunderbolt pilots all things".
Boy good old H was quite a guy.
A little later on, in 1929, Wittgensein stated on related matters:
I can readily think what Heidegger means by Being and Dread. Man has the impulse to run up against the limits of language. Think, for example, of the astonishment that anything exists. This astonishment cannot be expressed in the form of a question, and there is no answer to it. Everthing which we feel like saying can, a-priori, only be non-sense. Nevertheless, we do run up against the limits of language. This running up, Kierkegaard also recognized and even designated in a quite similar way (as running up against Paradox). This running up against the limits of language is Ethics. I hold that is is truly important that one put an end to all the idle talk about Ethics- whether there be knowledge, whther there be values, whether the Good can be defined, etc. In Ethics, one is always making the attempt to say something that does not concern the essence of the matter and never can concern it. It is a-priori certain that whatever one might offer as a definition of the good, it is always simply a misunderstanding to think that it corresponds in expression to the authentic matter one actually means. Yet the tendency represented by the running-up against points to something. St. Augustine already knew this when he said: What you wretch, so you want to avoid talking non-sense? Talk some non-sense it makes no difference.".
Just some possible ingredients for your drinks  , dfb |
Edited by - divinefurball on Jun 19 2009 6:30:25 PM |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
| AYP Public Forum |
© Contributing Authors (opinions and advice belong to the respective authors) |
|
|
|
|
another paradox?
