Awakening and merit in the Buddhist tradition

Japan
352 Posts

Posted - May 15 2009 : 02:03:27 AM

Just curious, so would the Zen tradition (Soto or Rinzai) basically be striving for a sudden shift whereas a yogic tradition would be going for a more gradual shift? And in the case of a gradual shift, if this is the case, are there any indicators? Thanks in advance for any help.

Steve

Moderator note:
This interesting discussion on awakening and merit in the Buddhist tradition was split from this topic on the nature of thought:
here

Edited by - AYPforum on May 20 2009 3:41:47 PM

USA
545 Posts

Posted - May 15 2009 : 08:56:02 AM

Steven, there's no shift. You either see it or you don't. You are either looking or you are not. The Zen method closes the six senses. The Yogic tradition leaves them open. The Zen method is flawed. Many of the Zen masters, I believe, without realizing it, fall into no attachment, no focus on their own. But the teaching method of staring at a blank wall and closing off the senses with hard concentration obscures the Emptiness. Awakening is the union of emptiness and appearances. Mind's nature is like space. So with senses open, rest and relax in mind's nature like space and without effort, no attachment, no focus, no fear or hope. <--This is the fruit, the Buddha's samadhi.

Yoga is like the full moon. Zen is like the waxing moon. Not all yogas are equal. Many yoga traditions are also waxing moon. Those that understand the ultimate state is non-doing, non-seeing, without focus or attachment are the enlightened full moon practice. Full enlightenment depends on the merit of the practitioner too. Meditation alone is not enough.

Edited by - Konchok Ösel Dorje on May 15 2009 09:03:26 AM

USA
138 Posts

Posted - May 15 2009 : 12:51:07 PM

Hi Konchok Osel Dorje. You said: "Full enlightenment depends on the merit of the practitioner too. Meditation alone is not enough". Could you please tell me what merit is in this view? With Thanks, divinefurball

Christi

United Kingdom
4429 Posts

Posted - May 15 2009 : 5:38:24 PM

Hi emc,

quote:
A metaphore just came to me on how I experience this re-awakening (wobbling in and out of time I use to call it)... It's like watching those pictures with black and white dots that if you stare at them long enough will become 3D and show beautiful and wonderous motives that are totally hidden for anyone who cannot find the right "tuning in" with the eyes. When it happens - there's NO DOUBT that something shifted significantly and made the picture undescribably more enjoyable than from the start. There's a new SEEING and KNOWING there's something more in those dots than you saw before. The discovery of the NEW picture is instant without you doing anything in particular. There is no way to decide when the shift will happen - it just does after staring long enough and having the right intention of wanting to be able to see it. With practice, the ability to shift becomes automatic and easier. And it's impossible to describe to anyone else what it looks like... You gotta see it for yourself. And you gotta be relaxed, and practice... and have a strong will and longing for the shift to happen... but you can never force it... then the dots will still be dots instead of a beautiful mystery.

Yes... it is just like that.

Great post.

Christi

USA
545 Posts

Posted - May 15 2009 : 11:57:36 PM

quote:
Originally posted by divinefurball

Hi Konchok Osel Dorje. You said: "Full enlightenment depends on the merit of the practitioner too. Meditation alone is not enough". Could you please tell me what merit is in this view? With Thanks, divinefurball

Merit is the circumstances of being born in a good condition suitable for practice. It also means conducting yourself with loving kindness and compassion. For example a dog cannot recognize the nature of their mind. A robber in prison being beaten by guards can't either. Merit is the conditions created by a mind of love. These conditions take many lifetimes to accumulate. Practicing meditation for the benefit of all beings is a good start.

emc

2072 Posts

Posted - May 16 2009 : 02:03:44 AM

Kirtanman, Parallax and Christi, thanks a lot for your comments!

I woke up this morning and the symbolism just continues... It's like all the black dots are yin and all the white dots are yang... they exist together and must exist together in an intimate relationship and work as One Whole or it won't be any picture. But still they have to be clearly distinct from eachother as polarities, or there will be no effect!

Ösel: "A robber in prison being beaten by guards can't either [recognize the nature of their mind]."

Can you absolutely KNOW that's True? (or is it a beautiful point of view?)

Ah, there's a little poem for you!!!

USA
545 Posts

Posted - May 16 2009 : 12:24:57 PM

If you wouldn't mind, go commit an armed robbery, you don't have to put bullets in the gun; then, when you are arrested, call the officer a mean name like "pig"; when he is beating you with a club, try to recognize the nature of your mind. If you succeed, please inform me how you did that. That would be very instructive.

*clearly not serious*

USA
138 Posts

Posted - May 16 2009 : 9:26:17 PM

Hi Konchok Osel Dorje. Thank you for your answer. It helps some. Merit is clearly complex. Please tell me, on this view, is it possible that, of all the infinite snetient beings, there are any with no merit at all, at any given time. Thanking You Again, divinefurball

USA
545 Posts

Posted - May 17 2009 : 12:53:59 PM

To be born human requires a great deal of merit. The gods have somewhat less merit. Animals have less still. The hell beings have considerably less.

Among the humans, merit varies in range, from the buddhas at the top to those who wallow in misery and violence at the other end.

Japan
352 Posts

Posted - May 17 2009 : 6:10:08 PM

I've always wondered where plants fit in. I would guess under the animal category, but it seems odd that even the ancient Buddhists would make this mistake.

USA
545 Posts

Posted - May 17 2009 : 10:14:05 PM

quote:
Originally posted by stevenbhow

I've always wondered where plants fit in. I would guess under the animal category, but it seems odd that even the ancient Buddhists would make this mistake.

There's no mistake. Ancient Indian culture knew about microscopic organisms too. Jains would cover their mouths with a cloth to prevent inhaling and killing micro-organisms. All these fall within the category of animals. You can call it plants and animals. In this category, stupidity dominates. Plants and micro-organisms don't have much in the way of minds, so they are not really discussed. Animals more obviously have minds, which is why they are.

Japan
352 Posts

Posted - May 17 2009 : 11:07:41 PM

Gotcha! This vegetable thanks you dearly for your kind answers once again

USA
138 Posts

Posted - May 19 2009 : 6:16:54 PM

Hi Konchok Osel Dorje. Thank you for your answer. However, you only mentioned that the hell beings have very little merit, and various others have more - to varying degrees. I had asked if there has ever been a sentient being with no merit whatsoever. Maybe thats impossible. Please tell me. With Thanks, divinefurball

USA
545 Posts

Posted - May 19 2009 : 7:04:36 PM

The answer is no. All sentient beings have merit, are worthy of compassion and can realize the nature of mind and become buddhas any time should the interdependent causes arise for them to do so.

USA
138 Posts

Posted - May 20 2009 : 09:55:25 AM

Hi Konchok Osel Dorje. Thank you very much for your answer, it is very helpfull. you said: "All sentient beings have merit, are worthy of compassion and can realize the nature of mind and become buddhas any time should the interdependent causes arise for them to do so." Could you please explain the nature of "the interdependent causes", how they can arise, and how they are related to the attainment of precious Buddahood? With Thanks, and Appreciation for your Patience, divinefurball

USA
138 Posts

Posted - May 25 2009 : 9:46:06 PM

Hi Konchok Osel Dorje. I have waited 5 days for an answer to my questions, and have seen you post elsewhere on a directly related topic since, so I can only assume that I have expressed myself poorly, and your failure to respond was merely the result of a compassionite need not to point that out and cause me embarrasment. There is no need to restrain yourself so, as I will happily be shamed if it help any other, and/or myself to advance on our path/s. But, I think, now, in the intrest of clarity, I will re-phrase and simplify my question, so, hopefully, you may be better able to help without concern for such matters. Please Konchok Osel Dorje, tell me whether one acquires merit though the practice of (AYP) Deep Meditation or not. With Thanks For Your Mercy and Patience, divinefurball

Christi

United Kingdom
4429 Posts

Posted - May 26 2009 : 7:39:46 PM

Hi Divinefurball,

Whilst we are waiting for Konchok to reply I thought I'd answer your question. The simple answer is yes, you aquire good merit through the practice of AYP deep meditation. There are many things you can do to aquire good merit... giving alms to the poor, or helping an old person across the road etc. Also performing puja (ritual spiritual worship) or praying, or practicing spiritual purification techniques leads to the accumulation of merit. AYP deep meditation is an especially good way of aquiring merit in order to awaken.

Christi

cosmic

USA
821 Posts

Posted - May 27 2009 : 03:05:49 AM

Maybe off topic, but why is it said (in Buddhist tradition) that being born as a human takes great merit, and that the gods are envious of us? Is being human the only path to nirvana? Do the gods suffer?

Thanks

With Love
cosmic

Sparkle

Ireland
1457 Posts

Posted - May 27 2009 : 03:28:39 AM

So what exactly is merit anyway?

Coming from an Irish Catholic background the word merit seems to be the same as stockpiling one's good deeds in order to get to heaven.

This process has been seen to reinforce the divide in the individual by continuely doing things that are perceived to get one into heaven, sometime in the future.

The problem is; the focus is all about "getting"to heaven when we die, instead of realising that the only getting is right now, and heaven is within us right now. Not necessarily only for the "so called enlightened", it is here in glimpses for everyone, if only people realised that many of the simple joys they experience, such as seeing a baby's smile, or a beautiful sunset, can be heaven.
Unfortunately, our thinking mind often tells us otherwise and all our belief systems within this mind are veiling us from this simple reality of heaven right now.

What is being proposed in this thread smacks of the Hindu caste system, which I'm afraid is something that just seems plain wrong to me (apologies if I offend any Hindus here).

My intuition and insight tells me that anyone is capable of ending suffering within themselves. Often it is through abject hardship, such as being in a prison (think about prisoners on death row), or being in the prison of our thinking mind and suffering greatly because if it.
It has been shown over and over that being in the gutter of spiritual destitude produces breakthroughs - available to anyone.

So, while merit might have some sort of place as a concept to encourage us to practice everyday in our sadhana, there is also a major trap in it too, in getting caught up in the notion that it is a practice in itself.
But what do I know.
My 2 cents

Edited by - Sparkle on May 27 2009 03:44:16 AM

Ananda

3115 Posts

Posted - May 27 2009 : 05:19:50 AM

Thk you for being so outside the box and in tune with what is brother Sparkle, this post of yours is really real

much love to your kind person,

Ananda

Japan
352 Posts

Posted - May 27 2009 : 08:31:15 AM

"My intuition and insight tells me that anyone is capable of ending suffering within themselves."

That was pretty much the Buddha's point of view as well.

USA
545 Posts

Posted - May 27 2009 : 09:41:30 AM

The gods suffer greatly when their long lives end. AYP meditation of course is a the cause of merit. All spiritual practice is the cause of merit. As an example of interdependent causes: from teacher, teaching, student and practice arises enlightenment.

USA
138 Posts

Posted - May 27 2009 : 3:53:33 PM

Hi Christi, thank you for your helpfull words, which all make sense to me. But I am also very concerned for the Hell Beings. So I need to ask Konchok Osel Dorje another question. With Kind Regards, divinefurball

USA
138 Posts

Posted - May 27 2009 : 3:58:17 PM

Hi Konchok Osel Dorje, thank you very much for your response! I appreciate it. As I mentioned above in my response to Christi, I am still very concerned for the Hell Beings. Please tell me, can a Hell Being practice deep meditation and acquire merit in this way, or not? With Sincere Thanks For Your Responses, divinefurball

USA
545 Posts

Posted - May 27 2009 : 10:33:27 PM

Imagine yourself meditating with a spike shooting up your rectum and protruding through your skull, over and over again.

Then, you will understand merit and wisdom. Wisdom is just very very very difficult to realize when being tortured.