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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
 Posted - May 10 2009 : 5:04:49 PM
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quote:
"True Nature is free from all phenomena
Which are illusions by causes created.
Noumena neither rise nor fall, but all
Phenomena are flowers in the sky.
The unreal reveals the real
But both are but illusions.
Since there is nothing real nor unreal
How can there be a subject and an object?
For between the two there is no true nature like.
The point where two rush bundles meet when set upright.
Tying and untying from the same cause arise,
While the saintly and the worldly are not dual.
Consider underlying nature at the point
Of meeting where both is and is not cannot be.
If you disregard it you are in delusion,
If you awaken to it you are free at once.
Six knots are untied one after the other;
When six are undone one vanishes as well.
Choose an organ that is all penetrating
To enter the holy stream and attain Bodhi.
Old habits flow like torrents in
âlaya's subtle consciousness.
Since the real yet unreal can create confusion
I have refrained from revealing it to you.
If mind be set on searching for the mind, that which
At heart is not illusion becomes illusory.
If you stop all grasping then there is nothing real
If what is not illusion ceases
To arise, where can illusion be?
This is the profound Lotus Dharma (Law),
The precious Bodhi of the royal gem,
The Samàdhi of seeing all things as illusion
Which in a finger-snap leads to the state beyond
All study. The unsurpassed Doctrine was followed
By all Bhagavats in all directions
On the One Path that to Nirvàna leads."
The Buddha, Surangama Sutra
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - May 10 2009 : 5:18:37 PM
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quote:
"Therefore, Ananda, choose one organ from the six, and if its knot is untied, all objects of sense will vanish of themselves. When all illusions disappear, if this is not Reality, what more do you expect?" The Buddha, Surangama Sutra
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - May 10 2009 : 5:24:24 PM
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The objects of the senses, the intellect and emotions arise 24/7 continuous. As each one arises, at that moment enter the View, no attachment, focus or hope and the object will be liberated in the Dharmakaya. Repeat this over and over in waking, dreaming and at the moment of death.
As you untie the knot, you awaken and their are no knots. Then some time later another arises, you recognize you have fallen asleep, practice again, untie the knot and wake up. With enough practice, you cannot be lulled back into sleep. Then, you will progress from the first to the 10th bhumi.
This is the Supreme Vehicle, the Unsurpassed and most excellent teaching of the Glorious Buddha. |
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alwayson
Canada
288 Posts |
Posted - May 10 2009 : 6:25:31 PM
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| even if you do that your entire life, nothing is going to happen |
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - May 10 2009 : 7:11:25 PM
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Alwayson, Until you meet a qualified spiritual master with genuine realization, you should think twice about making statements about what you think is dharma. I've quoted the Buddha's teachings directly.
What I have placed here is the essence of Kagyu teaching, Vajrayana and Mahayana. The Kagyu and Nyingma View, Practice, Action and Fruit are identical. These are teachings of my Lama, Drubpon Rinpoche, and the teachings of Mahamudra as taught by Milarepa, who attained buddhahood.
You can choose to cling to being right or you can choose to let go of your concepts and judgments and leave your samsaric self behind.
At this stage, your assertions are opposite the Buddha's dharma. Until you practice non-clinging and non-discrimination, nothing will happen for you except for more debates. You are chasing your tail with your self-taught "non-meditation" discriminatory judgmentalism practice.
I sincerely hope nobody takes you seriously. You should pray every day for a dharma teacher to meet you. Then, your feeling of being caught in a spiderweb of thoughts and analysis will cease. |
Edited by - Konchok Ösel Dorje on May 10 2009 7:36:57 PM |
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - May 10 2009 : 7:19:18 PM
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| Dharma is the path of non-discrimination. |
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alwayson
Canada
288 Posts |
Posted - May 10 2009 : 7:49:40 PM
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I will ask you straight out.
Is tantric practice necessary or not for Buddhahood in one lifetime?
Milarepa practiced all sorts of tantric practice. |
Edited by - alwayson on May 10 2009 9:10:26 PM |
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divinefurball
USA
138 Posts |
Posted - May 10 2009 : 8:52:20 PM
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| Hi, alwayson. I think that dependant origination requires that there is no such thing as "one lifetime". What do you think? With Thanks, divinefurball |
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - May 10 2009 : 9:08:45 PM
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I will quote the Ganga Mahamudra by Tilopa to Naropa:
quote:
"Like the center of space, the mind is beyond perception
Free the mind in that state without releasing or restraining it.
When the mind is free from all foci, it is Mahamudra.
When one becomes familiar with it, the unsurpassed enlightenment is attained.
The followers of Tantric teachings, and the Paramitas,
Vinaya teachings, Sutras and the Pitakas, etc.
And the religious scriptures and their tenets,
Will not see the luminous Mahamudra.
Inner desire, hopes and expectation obscure the luminosity
Visualization, the Six Yogas, Deity Yoga, Tummo, karmamudra, togal and other tantric practices are auxiliary tools to assist or speed up the realization of Mahamudra. These practices are not required. However, they can be prescribed by the Guru based on the needs of the individual practitioner. Milarepa's primary practice was Mahamudra assisted by Tummo.
Mahamudra is a stand-alone practice, and there are some practitioners who can proceed to buddhahood with just the pointing out instructions and constant meditation. Mahamudra is my primary practice.
If you learn to practice on each of the senses and emotions as they arise in a vivid and strong fashion due to previous karma and attachment, then you liberate each attachment as it arises. If you can learn to untie the knots, then there is no need for Tantric practice.
All the Vajrayana practices of prostration, mandala, mantra, deity and guru yoga are so that one can get a glimpse of the nature of mind. Once you have the glimpse, the pointing out instructions start. Then once you recognize your nature, you just enter The View Practice Action.
Tummo, Six Yoga, thogal, etc. are like adding high octane fuel to an ordinary car. They speed it up. |
Edited by - Konchok Ösel Dorje on May 10 2009 9:50:21 PM |
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alwayson
Canada
288 Posts |
Posted - May 10 2009 : 10:01:23 PM
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So we agree!
Tantra speeds it up so it can be done in one lifetime!
P.S. Mahamudra is by definition tantric. It only exists in the tantra literature.... |
Edited by - alwayson on May 10 2009 10:27:33 PM |
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - May 10 2009 : 10:12:21 PM
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| Some people need Tantra to progress to Buddhahood in one lifetime. However, others don't, and can attain Buddhahood with just View Practice Action. Your question was whether Tantric practice was required. It is not required. |
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - May 10 2009 : 11:00:15 PM
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| Mahamudra is not tantra, just like Dzogchen is not tantra. These belong to the Upadesha tradition of Anu and Ati Yoga. Tantras are a different set of documents and practices. |
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alwayson
Canada
288 Posts |
Posted - May 10 2009 : 11:43:15 PM
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This is my understanding:
Ninth bhumi stage bodhisattvas can achieve Buddhahood without working with the energy body, but even THEY require a tantric-style empowerment. This is even according to sutra.
Another situation is that one in a million can achieve Buddhahood simply by going through the fourth tantric empowerment.
Most people do not achieve Buddhahood on the fourth tantric empowerment, so you must rely on the two stages of Mahamudra, which involves dealing with the human energy body.
So for 99% of the situations, you need to work with the energy body (I am not including bardo/death practices. And even most bardo practices, like phowa, require working with the energy body lolll).
Mahamudra does not exist in the sutra class of literature. Kagyus purposely invented a "sutra mahamudra" for inferior students but this is not authentic. I tried to explain this to you before over email.
Mahamudra is really about the two stages (energy body practice), not this zen like pondering about the nature of the mind all the time.
P.S. Of course Dzogchen is tantric because it involves working with channels in the human body like the kati channels. |
Edited by - alwayson on May 11 2009 12:17:30 AM |
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - May 11 2009 : 12:38:08 AM
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Your problem is that you don't understand the zen like pondering about the nature of mind all the time, and until you do the energy body work will never be taught to you. You have no idea what Mahamudra is about, because a Kagyu lama has not shown you and you don't practice it. If you tried to practice it on your own without steadiness in The View Practice Action, you will practice energy body work for your entire life and nothing would happen, other than you might injure yourself.
Your comment trivializing the nature of mind as a practice and emphasizing the auxiliary practices of Six Yogas shows how clueless you are what the Vajrayana path is about. Emptiness, Mahamudra, Trekchod are the important Buddhist practices. Togal, Six Yogas and the like are secondary, auxiliary and unnecessary over all.
There is a continuity and a self-similarity of teachings from the Hiniyana path to the Vajrayana path. You need to look at this more carefully and your understanding of the secondary practices will begin to make sense. At least you will understand the Buddha's teachings and you will realize that the Buddha did not teach methods that would not work. LOL.
Basically, until you enter the path of nondiscrimination you are going to continue to chase your tail.
PS Your assertions about 9th Bhumi and whatnot has no basis. You should be thinking about how to get to the first bhumi, which is miraculous in itself. |
Edited by - Konchok Ösel Dorje on May 11 2009 02:54:04 AM |
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standingstone
USA
25 Posts |
Posted - May 11 2009 : 01:56:25 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Konchok Ösel Dorje
quote:
Originally posted by standingstone
out of curiosity, what would a buddhist normally consider their highest force for change, either personally or for all beings/existence? would it be 'the intention to become perfectly awakened for the benefit of inifinite sentient beings' or something of that nature?
The highest force for change is the mind. The Right Motivation is a powerful force of that mind.
thanks Konchok, much appreciated.. the initial answer as well as some of the other elaborations in this thread are very valueable to me.
quote:
Originally posted by Konchok Ösel Dorje
You can go beyond thought, but you can't go beyond the mind. Yoga is the cessation of the modifications of the mind. Know that the entire Cosmos is encompassed by Mind.
quote:
Originally posted by Konchok Ösel Dorje
The main point of view of both Dzogchen and Mahamudra is that the entire Cosmos is encompassed by Mind. The nature of mind is the unelaborated Dharmakaya. Patanjali's premise that Yoga is the cessation of mental modifications corresponds directly to the Buddha's teachings of nonattachment.
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Ananda
3115 Posts |
Posted - May 11 2009 : 02:59:53 AM
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may i add on my thks also for the insightful posts brother mystic\konchoc, and thk you for mentioning me in one of my past incarnations .
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Edited by - Ananda on May 11 2009 03:07:40 AM |
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alwayson
Canada
288 Posts |
Posted - May 11 2009 : 11:14:23 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Konchok Ösel Dorje
Your problem is that you don't understand the zen like pondering about the nature of mind all the time
Actually I do...
Good luck achieving tenth bhumi in one lifetime without working on the human energy body. This is not Buddhism. Either you have been misled or you have misunderstood. I bet in two years time you will realize Milarepa and every non-kagyu lama was right. |
Edited by - alwayson on May 12 2009 1:12:23 PM |
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - May 11 2009 : 10:49:48 PM
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Milarepa was a Kagyu Lama. Make a strong wish to find a guru. No one will attain the 10th bhumi without a teacher. Enlightenment depends on Buddha, Dharma and Sangha. I'm not being misled in the least by His Holiness Taklung Matul Rinpoche, His Eminence Garchen Rinpoche or Lama Drubpon Gonpo Dorje Rinpoche. My dharma friends teach me the Six Yogas of Naropa and the oral pith instructions. See www.vajrayoga.org. You'll see that I am a teacher at the monastery. I know what these are for, when they will work and when they won't.
There's really no substitute for a guru. A realized Lama can look into your eyes and tell if you have attained some level of realization. Many instructions he gave me, not because I asked, but because he could tell by being around me or something. The way a Lama prods you this way and that to recognize your real nature is a very deep and mystical experience.
You have no idea how profound and rapid my development has been in the last six months, because of Lama Drubpon Gonpo Dorje Rinpoche. The kind of meditative experiences I have had, the visions, the change in my energy, psychic experiences, and a profound sense of ease. I have advanced tremendously using only Mahamudra, not shamatha, but Mahamudra. Mahamudra is extremely profound, not mundane, and beyond imagination. There are many things I've been asked not to talk about, delightful things and terrifying things.
The nature of mind is the path. It is that simple. Some students will attain buddhahood simply with the pith instructions on the nature of mind. Not everyone needs special yogas. The Yogas are not the main point. The main point is Emptiness. Emptiness is not an idea, it is not a non-idea. Emptiness is your mind in a certain meditation experience when you are not clinging to anything at the moment.
You need to drop your know-it-all approach, because it is getting you no where. Your library academic knowledge to dharma has screwed up your head into thinking your have realized the nature of your mind when you haven't. You wind up slandering your dharma friends, misrepresenting the Dharma and misleading aspirants which is a grave karmic mishap.
Energy body practices are not a starting point for any yogi. Like in AYP, you must have experience in meditation to make the energy practice useful. You have misunderstood the doctrine of dependent origination. Knowing what dependent origination means, doesn't mean you have experienced the Emptiness, or that karmas will self-liberate.
Enlightenment is not dependent on the energy body. It is dependent on the Buddha-nature, the Precious Human Life, the Spiritual Master and his/her teachings.
If you want to know what Buddhism is, I will make this clear to you one more time: Buddhism is the path of non-discrimination. Release your views. Rest without judging, be open, like space. Samsara arises from likes, dislikes and confusion.
As soon as you give up your judging, your attachment to being right all the time, your attachment to ideas and your attachment to views, you will creep closer to the reality.
"I do not go checking on views to find out if my own is high and others’ low." Milarepa
As long as I see you writing on line, I'm going to hold your feet to the fire. You can do better than just arrogantly relying on yourself. You must take refuge and rely on the Buddha, Dharma and Sangha. Stop talking about the rainbow body and things you only know enough about to be dangerous. If you are a Buddhist, like you claim to be, you will know that there are Dharma protectors who will always be there to stop anyone from misrepresenting Dharma.
If you had any humility, you would see that I'm trying to help you. The energy body has nothing to do with Buddhism, just like Deity Yoga has nothing to do with Buddhism. Hindus use these too. Buddhists have made use of these tools. Buddhist wisdom is nonconceptual and without prejudice. Any other tool could be adopted too.
The Buddha's view of emptiness: cling to nothing whatsoever. Judging "this is right" "this is wrong" is really suffering. |
Edited by - Konchok Ösel Dorje on May 12 2009 11:51:41 AM |
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - May 11 2009 : 11:13:54 PM
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quote:
"Thereupon the World Honored One told Shariputra, "Since you have earnestly requested three times, how can I not speak? You should now listen attentively, think upon it well, and be mindful of it; I will explain it in detail for your sake."
As he said these words, five thousand Bhikshus, Bhikshunis, Upasakas, and Upasikas in the assembly rose from their seats, made obeisance to the Buddha and left. What was the reason? The roots of their offenses were deep and grave and they were of such overweening pride that they claimed to have obtained what they had not yet obtained and to have certified to that to which they had not yet certified to. With faults such as these they could not stay. The World Honored One remained silent and did not restrain them."
Lotus Sutra
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - May 11 2009 : 11:18:10 PM
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| "Boil all the points down into one. This One is: The Void Nature of Being" Milarepa. |
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alwayson
Canada
288 Posts |
Posted - May 12 2009 : 1:10:44 PM
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Trust me, I am fine with not talking about the Dharma lol
Maybe Yogani should just delete this entire thread. I would actually even prefer it. |
Edited by - alwayson on May 12 2009 1:25:38 PM |
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - May 12 2009 : 1:49:53 PM
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| Why would he do that when I'm clearing up all your misinformation? |
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alwayson
Canada
288 Posts |
Posted - May 12 2009 : 2:16:41 PM
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I have always agreed with you on realizing non-discrimination. This is Buddhist Dzogchen view.
Proper view (which is non-discrimination), dedication of merit and the intention to become perfectly awakened for the benefit all sentient beings are necessary for Buddhahood. There I said it yet again.
You are the one comparing Buddha to Patanjali and the Vedas. Am I missing something?
You do not believe in the two accumulations of merit and wisdom, the need to remove the obscurations nor all the other detailed requirements of Buddhahood....but whatever, I am cool with it.
P.S. Patanjali ain't close to Buddhism, because as far as I understand he wants to avoid thoughts and emotions in favor of one-pointed concentration. In fact aren't Patanjali and Mahayana typically looked upon as opposites??? |
Edited by - alwayson on May 12 2009 7:37:29 PM |
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divinefurball
USA
138 Posts |
Posted - May 12 2009 : 2:48:31 PM
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| Hi alwayson. Are you saying that the accumulation of merit and wisdom, and the removal of obstructions are exclusivly tantric? With Thanks, divinefurball |
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - May 12 2009 : 4:54:00 PM
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Of course, Buddhahood depends on the accumulation of merit and wisdom. I never said otherwise. One of the fruits of merit is meeting a wise teacher. Awakening means removal of the two obscurations.
What you are saying is that removal of the two obscurations cannot happen without the energy body work. What I'm telling you is that is not true. That may be true for most, but it is not absolute. Whether a practitioner needs the energy body work depends on their merit and wisdom. The Buddha attained enlightenment without these practices.
Energy body work is *auxiliary*. For example, Tummo allows one to go without food. It also is a practice that makes one feel *extra* worry free and at ease. On this basis, one can practice Mahamudra in the assisted state of ease.
The samadhi of hindu and vedanta yogis takes one into the final layer of samsara in the formless realm. This is very high level samadhi. Hindu yogis are capable of many amazing feats.
Buddhist samadhi takes one out of samsara and into the Bhumis. It is a wrong view to assert that the hindu and vedanta yogas are opposite of the Buddha's Dharma. The correct orientation is that the hindu, agamic and vedanta practices are foundational.
There's no argument or opposition. Rather, in the Buddha's samadhi there is no attachment and no focus. In the other samadhis along the path, for example, in the formless realm of neither perception nor non-perception, there is a subtle thought being held.
So saying "Patanjali ain't close to Buddhism" is discrimination, and thus wrong.
The Buddha would not have agreed nor disagreed with Patanjali. Verse two of the Yoga Sutras is: Yoga is the cessation of mental modifications. <-- This is exactly the meaning of Emptiness. |
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Buddhism, The Rainbow Body and Enlightenment
