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alwayson
Canada
288 Posts |
 Posted - May 12 2009 : 5:06:42 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Konchok Ösel Dorje
So saying "Patanjali ain't close to Buddhism" is discrimination, and thus wrong.
Nice try. You are just losing all credibility by saying Patanjali, Buddha, the Vedas and the Upanishads all say the same thing.
The mind is literally a "wind" in the body. How the heck is it modified in the first place?
Thought activity NATURALLY decreases simply with the level of relaxation. Its simply an energy current with no dualistic essence.
The "cessation of mental modifications sounds" sounds to me like void. Void is not sunyata. If you think this is sunyata, you need to start from square one again. |
Edited by - alwayson on May 12 2009 5:31:31 PM |
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divinefurball
USA
138 Posts |
Posted - May 12 2009 : 5:16:21 PM
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Hi all: I just thought Yogani's AYP (partial) Lesson 43 might be pertinent with respect to the relation between non-discrimination and tantra. What do you think?!:
Meditation and pranayama are distinctly different practices with distinctly different purposes. Meditation instills in us the silence of pure bliss consciousness. Pranayama loosens the subtle nerves and stimulates the flow of prana in particular ways. This provides pure bliss consciousness the opportunity to flow dynamically in the nervous system. This is experienced first as the ever-increasing expansion of ecstasy, and later as the rise of universal, blissful self-awareness. Pranayama is on the edge of meditation, but it is not meditation. Meditation is on the edge of pranayama, but it is not pranayama. You might say that they both come from opposite sides to the edge of the subtle boundary that exists between pure bliss consciousness and prana everywhere in us. By doing pranayama and meditation in succession we are dissolving the boundary from both sides. It is a double whammy. This is the great benefit of doing both practices.
Pranayama in its various forms has tremendous value, and we will make extensive use of it. It is one of the master keys to opening the human nervous system to divine experience. But, pranayama is not a replacement for meditation. Only through meditation can the nervous system be permeated with pure bliss consciousness. Pranayama and other techniques we will discuss aid greatly in providing the ground for pure bliss consciousness to come up, and they are means for its expansion outward, but they are not the primary cause of its coming up. Meditation is. For this reason, pranayama is not recommended as a stand-alone practice without meditation.
Meditation can be practiced as a stand-alone. It is a complete practice that will lead to a full flowering of pure bliss consciousness in a person over an extended period of time. This is why meditation was said to be enough for those who are not inclined to pursue other advanced yoga practices to speed up the journey. Meditation is the best single practice one can do.
On the other hand, practicing pranayama alone without meditation can leave the practitioner vulnerable in some ways. Imagine you plow a field, turning the rich soil over and over. It is exposed, fertile, and ready for the seed to be planted. What will you plant there? If you meditate deeply with an effective method, you will plant the field full with the seed of pure bliss consciousness, and it will germinate and grow strong, filling the field with joy. But what if you don't meditate, and you don't plant anything in particular in your fertile pranayama field? What will grow there? Something will. But what? Whatever happens to be around. Some desires, some thoughts, some emotions, whatever happens to be blowing over the field. To tell you the truth, a lot of weeds can grow there, because there is no crop of pure bliss consciousness filling up that field. This is why pranayama, practiced as a stand-alone over months and years, can lead to less instead of more. In some people this type of imbalanced practice can lead to increasing rigidness, egotism, anxiety, anger, and just plain bad luck. Meditate every day after you do pranayama and you will experience the opposite of these things in great profusion – flexibility, compassion, peace, joy, and lots of good luck. That's how it works.
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alwayson
Canada
288 Posts |
Posted - May 12 2009 : 5:37:51 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Konchok Ösel Dorje
What you are saying is that removal of the two obscurations cannot happen without the energy body work. What I'm telling you is that is not true. That may be true for most, but it is not absolute. Whether a practitioner needs the energy body work depends on their merit and wisdom. The Buddha attained enlightenment without these practices.
Hold on. The way Buddha obtained enlightenment is a more complex deliberate way involving multiple lifetimes.
Are we talking one lifetime or multiple? Because I am talking only about one. |
Edited by - alwayson on May 12 2009 5:40:11 PM |
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - May 12 2009 : 5:39:14 PM
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With regard to Patanjali, I'm telling you what Lord Jigten Sumgon, an enlightened master teaches. Take it or leave it. I have no concern about my credibility; perhaps you do. Concern about the eight worldly dharmas has not impact on my mind.
I'm not saying they all say the same thing. I'm saying what your discriminatory analytical mind can't feel: there is no opposition.
The Ganga Mahamudra states that Samadhi is when thoughts, feelings, perceptions naturally dissipate, like clouds in the sky. This does not happen naturally, unless you have received the pointing out instructions and have learned to enter the View and to maintain it. Entering the View at the moment of perceptions, emotions, etc., and maintaining it is the practice. This is exactly what Mahamudra and Trekcho describe as working with circumstances. One uses the energy of the moment to feed into one's practice of untying the knots.
Thus, Patanjali's definition of Yoga is exactly the definition of Mahamudra. Though I did not say that Patanjali's methods are sufficient to attain buddhahood. I said they are not opposite. They lie along a continuum.
The naturally occurring meditation that happens when you relax is Shamata. It is not Vipashyana. Buddhist meditation is shamata and vipashyana. In The View Practice Action, shamata is natural due to emotions, thoughts, and perceptions. We don't deal with artificial objects of focus. We deal with what is happening at the moment.
The hindu vedanta hit their high points at the limits of shamata, and barely scratches the surface of wisdom. Then, Buddhist samadhi picks up Vipashyana and extends it to new heights.
If you think you are experiencing Shunyata in Shamata, you are barely scratching the surface. |
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - May 12 2009 : 5:40:56 PM
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| Divinfurball is right. What he says is in synch. |
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alwayson
Canada
288 Posts |
Posted - May 12 2009 : 5:43:40 PM
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Ok I get what you are saying. So we pretty much agree then. Or do we still have disagreements
P.S. I only mentioned thoughts naturally lessening with relaxation simply to show that thoughts are just synaptic neurons firing with no inherent essence. |
Edited by - alwayson on May 12 2009 5:50:30 PM |
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - May 12 2009 : 5:46:53 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by alwayson
quote:
Originally posted by Konchok Ösel Dorje
What you are saying is that removal of the two obscurations cannot happen without the energy body work. What I'm telling you is that is not true. That may be true for most, but it is not absolute. Whether a practitioner needs the energy body work depends on their merit and wisdom. The Buddha attained enlightenment without these practices.
Hold on. The way Buddha obtained enlightenment is a more complex deliberate way involving multiple lifetimes.
Are we talking one lifetime or multiple? Because I am talking only about one.
I'm talking about one too. I'm trying to get you to see what the View really means. You cannot use energy body methods for any gain until you understand that the View is not a point of view. It is a practice.
The View does not happen naturally; it is not a phenomenon that you can just rely on. You have to practice it a lot after receiving the pointing out instructions.
All is mind. The mind is just non-dual wind, *in the natural state.* Your thoughts, judgments, etc. are the modifications. The modifications are karma, attachments. After you practice the View Practice Action, you don't attach to thoughts, you don't judge.
But it is not going to happen just by relaxing. Past-life karma prevents you from liberating yourself just by relaxing into a non-thought state. You have to know HOW to liberate them. |
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divinefurball
USA
138 Posts |
Posted - May 12 2009 : 5:51:28 PM
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Hi All,
"Meditation can be practiced as a stand-alone." Quote from above quote of Yogani. Putting the self aside (ie. infinite generousity - out pouring divine love, non-discrimination) allows/is aquisition/liberation of merit and/as awakening. Tantra can help speed things up. Tiresome self-involved dickering will get no one no where. But perhaps thats where we ought to go. So you both continue. Regards, divinefurball |
Edited by - divinefurball on May 12 2009 6:03:44 PM |
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alwayson
Canada
288 Posts |
Posted - May 12 2009 : 5:52:07 PM
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I know what you are saying Osel. Believe me. I have been playing around with that kind of stuff for two years hardcore. I have bored people to death with it lol.
The natural state is self-validating if you stumble upon it. Not that there is a natural state at all.
I thought I gained perfect enlightenment when I discovered the natural state during a period of intense unhappiness. I even started seeing a psychiatrist a few days before. It was a big 180 shift. Needless to say I discontinued the psychiatrist.
I suddenly understood all Advaita and Zen writings whereas a week before I was clueless. I did not know anything about Buddhism back then except as presented in all those Advaita/Zen books. You guys know the type of books I am talking about right? |
Edited by - alwayson on May 12 2009 9:03:05 PM |
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - May 12 2009 : 6:16:31 PM
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| Divinefurball, Nowhere is exactly where we are going. No one is exactly who is going there. |
Edited by - Konchok Ösel Dorje on May 12 2009 7:04:39 PM |
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divinefurball
USA
138 Posts |
Posted - May 12 2009 : 7:14:54 PM
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Hi Konchok Osel Dorje! Yes, that was the meaning of my joke. With warm regards, divinefurball
p.s.: this pertains to dependent origination, it's infinite Buddha's, infinite sentient beings; the impossiblity of "one life", the reality of all life, and the need for compassion and generousity toward it, for us all to realize precious Buddahood, in the infinite lifetimes of it's infinite expressions...etc... |
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alwayson
Canada
288 Posts |
Posted - May 12 2009 : 8:29:20 PM
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so do we all agree yet lol?
I still think this thread should be junked |
Edited by - alwayson on May 12 2009 8:56:08 PM |
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divinefurball
USA
138 Posts |
Posted - May 12 2009 : 8:53:43 PM
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| we are the rainbow body, in that we all agree. Blessings to all, divinefurball |
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - May 12 2009 : 9:06:29 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by alwayson
so do we all agree yet lol?
I still think this thread should be junked
I'm sure we never disagreed. This thread is very nice.
This thread was not about who is right. It's about the importance of the nature of mind, the self-similarity of all the vehicles and importance of underemphasizing the auxiliary practices and leaving those teachings for those who take refuge. |
Edited by - Konchok Ösel Dorje on May 12 2009 9:18:16 PM |
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kadak
79 Posts |
Posted - Jul 18 2009 : 3:59:55 PM
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| That's strange because I've just read endless discussions about thogal, tummo, rainbow body etc... but no one seems to be practicing these seriously, so what's the point ? |
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stevenbhow
Japan
352 Posts |
Posted - Jul 18 2009 : 10:07:04 PM
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| Some of the posters here are practicing all three, but it is hard to do unless you can find a qualified monk that is willing to teach you. There are plenty of books of course, but they won't take you very far. |
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kadak
79 Posts |
Posted - Jul 19 2009 : 06:59:09 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by stevenbhow
Some of the posters here are practicing all three, but it is hard to do unless you can find a qualified monk that is willing to teach you. There are plenty of books of course, but they won't take you very far.
I doubt they posted in these discussions, because, when one is practicing hard, he doesn't take the results for granted and doesn't speak lightly of them. What I have read is exactly what people say before they get to practice, legends they have been told, legends their life will surely become when they practice. But it doesn't work like this.
If you read the life of Venerable Lobsang Tenzin, this is reality. The guy spent 20 years in a cave and maybe he got illusory body after his death. He achieved meditation clear light after 10 years hard practice, it is not even a result anyone would even have considered in the discussions I mentioned, because it is so small compared to what was discussed.
When you practice, you focus on the small results, not on the big ones, because you know you'll never get the big ones. You forget the legends. |
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - Jul 19 2009 : 3:49:29 PM
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My views and experiences change dramatically over time due to my time in retreat and the continued exposure my lama gives me to the oral instructions and to other masters. I am not practicing togal. I am practicing Mahamudra in the Drikung Kagyu lineage. My lama is training me under the essence Mahamudra oral instructions of Lord Jigten Sumgon.
Alwayson is a friend and he is strong interest in Dzogpachenpo, but doesn't have a lama. I hope he prays for one. |
Edited by - Konchok Ösel Dorje on Jul 19 2009 3:54:28 PM |
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kadak
79 Posts |
Posted - Jul 19 2009 : 7:02:08 PM
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I've an issue with rinpoches since I'm practicing seriously. I've done many research by myself, not only in buddhism but in christianims and hinduism. And I can see now that my former dharma friends are lacking crucial informations about practice. And not only this, but they don't even know that central pieces are missing.
Rinpoches are just playing with people, promising things they never give. Dzongsar Khyentse says himself that many lamas have a hidden agenda. I don't like it.
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - Jul 19 2009 : 8:50:29 PM
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| I'm sorry you have had unfortunate experiences with the lamas you have met. It is true that there are liar monks out there who present high teachings at seminars and other fora, but fail to teach what is necessary to use the methods. To generalize that all lamas are bad or have evil intentions is your attachment and confusion. No one is asking you to follow anyone. Perhaps you have sought high teachings, before you were ready because you are a bit conceited. If the teachings you receive are not helping you then move on. The Buddha never told anyone to follow him, only to test his methods. If you test the methods of your teacher and they have not brought about fruition, then it is both the teacher and student have failed. Your inner guru speaks all the time. Your karma is your teacher. I hope you can continue in your path, because there are great and wonderful bodhisattvas and buddhas alive now and teaching many diligent students. If it is your wish to meet them, then you will when you are ready. Try to wish for a real dharma friend who's not a mere lecturer, but someone with the means and time to help you over a long period of time with close personal attention. |
Edited by - Konchok Ösel Dorje on Jul 19 2009 10:46:06 PM |
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kadak
79 Posts |
Posted - Jul 20 2009 : 08:19:29 AM
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I was not speaking of myself, but of my friends. I've never trusted enough a teacher to really try his method, but I've seen and I still see many people trying and failing. How can I tell they have failed ? Because the teachers say it themselves. Not me. I was recently hearing a great Rinpoche saying he was very sad because none of his students had any fruition whatsoever. Another day he said westerners were bottomless wells, he didn't know why. And that at this rate of failure, buddhism would soon disappear.
Shenphen Dawa said one day that if he had one realized student, he would be happy. More than one would be a miracle.
Khandro Rinpoche says that westerners have no result (but that they will have "next year").
6th Drukpa says in his blog that he is very sad because very few people around him are really interested in dharma.
Namkhar Rabjam said one day that none among the 200 people sitting in the room had the experience of the dynamism of rigpa (tsel)...
Should I find other statements of this kind ?
And yet half of the sanghas believe they've realized the real meaning of emptiness, and they've stabilized the natural state.
If you open your ears and eyes, beyong the flourished words, you'll see the rinpoches all complaining. Some even sound desperate.
I don't understand how they can be desperate with so many diligent students.
In my opinion this is interdependent. Rinpoches keep holding back because we're not worthy, and we don't become worthy because they don't give the keys.
That's why I've designed my own system, somehow like Yogani, and now I'm just watching the game. |
Edited by - kadak on Jul 20 2009 10:16:26 AM |
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - Jul 20 2009 : 2:05:44 PM
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Carry on. It sounds like you have it all figured out. I know it is very difficult to find students who can make progress on the path. A ripened student is a very rare thing, someone precious.
My lama seems to be happy with my progress. That's what he tells me. I really don't care to open my eyes and ears to all the complaining going on. I already know that basically everyone is not satisfied.
I put my utmost faith in my lineage, the blessings and the guru. I have no doubt about the effectiveness of the methods, because I have entered retreat and have felt the impact.
I'm not saying I'm some kind of realized being. Not at all. But I am being given the pith instructions, and I am gaining wonderful experience with dharma.
My advice to you is don't be so concerned about others progress. If you show reverence to the lama and make supplications the ultimate guru, you will receive the blessings of swift ripening and based on that you will be given the pith instructions.
If you want to create your own system, then do that. Best of luck. |
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kadak
79 Posts |
Posted - Jul 20 2009 : 3:18:32 PM
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"My lama seems to be happy with my progress. That's what he tells me."
In your place I would be worried. I left my lama the day he told me that I would get the result of my practice. |
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Konchok Ösel Dorje
USA
545 Posts |
Posted - Jul 20 2009 : 5:11:50 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by kadak
"My lama seems to be happy with my progress. That's what he tells me."
In your place I would be worried. I left my lama the day he told me that I would get the result of my practice.
Why do you want me to worry? I'm not worried at all. Why do you expect me to follow your example? My path is Mahamudra. I don't have a worry in the world.
What does your karma with your lama's karma have to do with my karma and my lama's karma? Your worries are your attachments and obscurations. You should look into them. You should really confine your concerns to your own practice.
You must have faith in the teachings and devotion to the practices. If you doubt your teacher, then you cannot get anywhere. Devotion is the head of meditation. |
Edited by - Konchok Ösel Dorje on Jul 20 2009 5:33:37 PM |
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kadak
79 Posts |
Posted - Jul 20 2009 : 8:05:35 PM
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You're all kindness and compassion, that's obvious.
That was my point, now that is is made, you won't hear from me again. |
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Buddhism, The Rainbow Body and Enlightenment
