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Page: of 26

standingstone

USA
25 Posts

Posted - Apr 29 2009 :  12:08:17 AM  Show Profile  Visit standingstone's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
out of curiosity, what would a buddhist normally consider their highest force for change, either personally or for all beings/existence? would it be 'the intention to become perfectly awakened for the benefit of inifinite sentient beings' or something of that nature?
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divinefurball

USA
138 Posts

Posted - Apr 29 2009 :  6:52:42 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
I think readers of this thread should be aware that I am not it's author. I asked alwayson a question on another thread about yogic christianity started by kirtanman, and a moderator seperated this thread out. Kind regards, divinefurball
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divinefurball

USA
138 Posts

Posted - Apr 29 2009 :  6:58:56 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi alwayson, I was wondering what you think: was Gautema the Buddha a Buddhist?
With appreciation for your responses, divinefurball
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alwayson

Canada
288 Posts

Posted - Apr 29 2009 :  8:07:14 PM  Show Profile  Visit alwayson's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
yes of course.

Even in the theravada pali canon, the main thrust its how he was a buddhist over many reincarnations.

From what I understand, there were many pali canons, such as a mahayana pali canon, which were lost when the muslims invaded india (among other things).
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divinefurball

USA
138 Posts

Posted - Apr 29 2009 :  9:45:56 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Thank You for responding alwayson. Please do so again: Who do you think was the first Buddhist? With Thanks, Divinefurball
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alwayson

Canada
288 Posts

Posted - Apr 30 2009 :  12:39:28 AM  Show Profile  Visit alwayson's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Well even in the Pali canon, Buddhas stretch back forever due to dependent origination.

Edited by - alwayson on Apr 30 2009 01:17:46 AM
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Christi

United Kingdom
3893 Posts

Posted - Apr 30 2009 :  05:03:32 AM  Show Profile  Visit Christi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
out of curiosity, what would a buddhist normally consider their highest force for change, either personally or for all beings/existence? would it be 'the intention to become perfectly awakened for the benefit of inifinite sentient beings' or something of that nature?


Hi Standingstone and welcome to the forum,

Different practitioners of Buddhism have different motivations for practice. When the Buddha was alive, he taught people to practice to bring about the ending of suffering. Later on, several hundred years after the Buddha’s death, there was a development in Buddhism, bringing about a seperate school of thought which is today called Mahayana, or the greater vehicle. In this school a practitioner can abandon any aspiration for individual enlightenment and dedicate the fruits of their action to bringing about the salvation of all humanity (and all of aware existence).

These things change over time for each practitioner, and there are no fixed rules.

It is really the same in yoga. We could practice simply to aleviate our own difficulties in life, or we may practice in order to help all beings, or any mixture of both.

It is our choice which path (dharma) we chose to take in order to realize the truth (dharma) and union (yoga) with all That is beyond the ten thousand things.

Christi
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divinefurball

USA
138 Posts

Posted - Apr 30 2009 :  09:36:49 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi, alwayson, does this mean that there have been an infinite number of Buddhas'? Please explain this and its relation to dependent origination. With gratitude, divinefurball
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alwayson

Canada
288 Posts

Posted - Apr 30 2009 :  11:14:02 AM  Show Profile  Visit alwayson's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
i have no clue. I don't focus on stuff like that.

Edited by - alwayson on Apr 30 2009 11:27:48 AM
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divinefurball

USA
138 Posts

Posted - Apr 30 2009 :  1:10:45 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi alwayson, I'm sorry, I should have asked my question better. I'll try again: How is it that depenent origination requires that "Buddha's streatch back forever" ? With Thankfullness for your patience, divinefurball
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alwayson

Canada
288 Posts

Posted - Apr 30 2009 :  2:39:48 PM  Show Profile  Visit alwayson's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
because there is no beginning. There is no Source. .
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standingstone

USA
25 Posts

Posted - May 01 2009 :  3:44:38 PM  Show Profile  Visit standingstone's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Christi

Hi Standingstone and welcome to the forum,

Different practitioners of Buddhism have different motivations for practice. When the Buddha was alive, he taught people to practice to bring about the ending of suffering. Later on, several hundred years after the Buddha’s death, there was a development in Buddhism, bringing about a seperate school of thought which is today called Mahayana, or the greater vehicle. In this school a practitioner can abandon any aspiration for individual enlightenment and dedicate the fruits of their action to bringing about the salvation of all humanity (and all of aware existence).

These things change over time for each practitioner, and there are no fixed rules.

It is really the same in yoga. We could practice simply to aleviate our own difficulties in life, or we may practice in order to help all beings, or any mixture of both.

It is our choice which path (dharma) we chose to take in order to realize the truth (dharma) and union (yoga) with all That is beyond the ten thousand things.

Christi




thanks Christi, I guess what Im asking is not so much motivation for practice but of a generic buddhist view. Like where spontaneous healing comes from. that which is responsible for what some might call 'miracles'. for example a christian might consider grace, christ, mary, god etc their 'highest source of change'.

so Im wondering (partially because of a separate discussion on an email group), what a buddhist would call (in one word or phrase) that highest source of positive change and renewal in their lives.

like "the present moment" "insight" "awakening" "dharma" or something unnameable? I dont know because buddhism isnt what I practice or study so I thought Id ask here where there seems to be a few learned practitioners.
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alwayson

Canada
288 Posts

Posted - May 01 2009 :  5:59:48 PM  Show Profile  Visit alwayson's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
not wasting human life. (by not achieving Buddhahood)
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divinefurball

USA
138 Posts

Posted - May 01 2009 :  6:52:14 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi alwayson, thank you for answering my question. I think that, in the context of this discussion at least, you are right: "because there is no beginning. No source." There can also be no end. Therefore, an infinite number of the infinite number of sentient beings must have attained, and will attain, perfect awakening for obtaining the Buddahood of an infinite numbur of the infinite number of sentient beings, obtaining to infinite rainbow bodies, with infinite Pure Lands. That is to say that if there was one Buddha, there would also have to be an infinite number of them. Which is as much to say that all the infinite sentient beings will at sometime be, ignorant of Buddha nature, a Buddhist, and a Buddha. So there are always an infinite number of Buddhas' budding all around, walking there own paths - which they may or may not call Buddhist - to thier inevitable goal. I now realize you were being wonderfully ironic when you told me that no one but a Buddhist could obtain to the rainbow body, as on this view, we all will become Buddhists - "anyone with proper view and intention" - and Buddhas' someday. But note, there are also, therefore, infinitley different paths that eventually arrive at this result, and it is not for us to condem or mock any ones place on them, unless we would be delayed on our own, by failing to aquire merit through not practicing generousity - "not wasting human life. (by not achieving Buddhahood)". It is perhaps better to ask questions so that we may all obtain to greater understanding. Thank you again for answering my questions, it has been very helpfull,

divinefurball


"You must be Buddhist because of how the rainbow body process works.
The rainbow body process is based in dependent origination and dedication of merit, proper view etc.

Many of the elements necessary for rainbow body are combined into one little paragraph such as:

I take refuge in the Buddha, Dharma and Sangha.
By the merit I accumulate by practising generosity and the other perfections, I attain perfect awakening for the benefit of all sentient beings.

In this one paragraph, you have dedicated merit for the purpose of obtainining Buddhahood for all sentient beings. Now pay attention. Since there is an infinite number of sentient beings, your aspiration becomes infinite, thus allows you to obtain perfect Buddhahood."

"A buddhist for me is anyone with proper view and intention. Its a functional thing for me."
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alwayson

Canada
288 Posts

Posted - May 01 2009 :  11:32:07 PM  Show Profile  Visit alwayson's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
actually from the point of Dzogchen, I think all the merit is already accumulated.
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divinefurball

USA
138 Posts

Posted - May 02 2009 :  11:43:31 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi alwayson, Ha Ha, thats a good one, you are really funny! Of course it is true that from the view of Dzogchen all the merit is already accumulated, and this also follows from the infinite Buddhas' of dependent origination, but that is so only in the Pure Lands. For us on earth, it is also equally true that all the merit is not accumulated, becuse the merit required is infinite and we have not yet accumulated it, or we would not be involved in karma. For there to be one Buddha, and therefore infinite Buddhas, there must also be infinite sentient beings who are ignorant of Buddha nature and involved in karma, and who will also become Buddha's someday. Talking about how many Buddhas' can dance on the head of a pin and such, will not help anyone obtain to the rainbow body. Until you obtain to the rainbow body yourself, all this is just empty words. So the practices are important and what keep this view from lapsing into tautology. You are very concerned to learn many esoteric practices to advance on the path. Sometimes the most exoteric are also most important - such as the practice of generousity. You have said A buddhist for me is anyone with proper view and intention." Perhaps you have proper view, but do you have proper intention? Are you a Buddhist?

With curiosity, divinefurball
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alwayson

Canada
288 Posts

Posted - May 02 2009 :  12:12:50 PM  Show Profile  Visit alwayson's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Practicing generosity ain't going to get you Buddhahood in this lifetime

TONS of merit is best accumulated through kundalini type practices. When you manipulate the energy body correctly, tons of merit is accumulated.

Merit is similarly liberated through another type of energy body practice which I won't talk about here.

Edited by - alwayson on May 02 2009 12:43:09 PM
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Christi

United Kingdom
3893 Posts

Posted - May 02 2009 :  6:08:15 PM  Show Profile  Visit Christi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Standingstone,

quote:
thanks Christi, I guess what Im asking is not so much motivation for practice but of a generic buddhist view. Like where spontaneous healing comes from. that which is responsible for what some might call 'miracles'. for example a christian might consider grace, christ, mary, god etc their 'highest source of change'.

so Im wondering (partially because of a separate discussion on an email group), what a buddhist would call (in one word or phrase) that highest source of positive change and renewal in their lives.

like "the present moment" "insight" "awakening" "dharma" or something unnameable? I dont know because buddhism isnt what I practice or study so I thought Id ask here where there seems to be a few learned practitioners.


Yes, you could say one of those would be a 'highest force for change'. Ultimately of course, Buddhism is not about changing anything, but rather it is about seeing the truth which is beyond all conditions, and which is never changing.

Christi

Edited by - Christi on May 02 2009 6:10:41 PM
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divinefurball

USA
138 Posts

Posted - May 02 2009 :  6:25:25 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi alwayson, Ha Ha, Ha, alwayson, each joke is better than the last! When you said " Practicing generosity ain't going to get you Buddhahood in this lifetime." - Gosh I nearly fell of my seat. Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha! - I know you know very well that the rainbow body is obtained only by generousity, as it is by putting the self aside. As you previously said:
" Many of the elements necessary for rainbow body are combined into one little paragraph such as:

I take refuge in the Buddha, Dharma and Sangha.
By the merit I accumulate by practising generosity and the other perfections, I attain perfect awakening for the benefit of all sentient beings."

alwayson, I think you must just be being mischevious, esoteric, and ironic, and trying to hide the way to the rainbow body from me!!

You told me: "In this one paragraph, you have dedicated merit for the purpose of obtainining Buddhahood for all sentient beings. Now pay attention. Since there is an infinite number of sentient beings, your aspiration becomes infinite, thus allows you to obtain perfect Buddhahood." Now pay attention, alwayson. It is not your aspiration to generousity that becomes infinite, but your actual generousity. "I" attain Buddahood for the benifit of infinite sentient beings - not for myself. The self stands in the way. So "I" do not obtain Buddahood at all. Infinite generousity is infinite merit, that is the real path to the rainbow body. Somtimes powerfull practices are most powerfull when practiced within the horizen of thier intended goal, so that those powerfull practices are also acts of generousity, rather than some kind of mummery or mystogogy. The infinite Buddhas' of dependent origination are the inexaustable font of generousity 'itself" - being/becoming without beginning or end. That is, they are outpouring divine love. So to become that, we must be that, and that is something that is taugt here at AYP as well, and is expressed in Yogani's making AYP available for us. So let us thank Yogani for his generousity and work though our relationships and practices to share such generousity for all the infinite sentient beings, and be sources of outpouring divine love. So, alwayson, I can't see how you will obtain to Buddahood in this, or any other, lifetime with out the practice of it.

By the way, I asked you a question in my last post: "You have said "A buddhist for me is anyone with proper view and intention." Perhaps you have proper view, but do you have proper intention? Are you a Buddhist?" Do you not wish to answer?

With love and laughter, divinefurball


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alwayson

Canada
288 Posts

Posted - May 02 2009 :  10:27:51 PM  Show Profile  Visit alwayson's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Again, merit is accumulated through kundalini type and other tantric practices. This is what is meant by accumulating merit by the perfections.

Who are you to question tantric practice?

You do not understand buddhism at all. There are so many faults in your logic, I do not where to begin honestly.

Good luck trying to achieve rainbow body without tantric practice. This is not authentic teaching. The teachings say that it is possible to achieve Buddhahood in one lifetime ONLY through tantric practice. period. verify for yourself.


Edited by - alwayson on May 02 2009 11:09:42 PM
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Echo

United Kingdom
48 Posts

Posted - May 03 2009 :  01:48:25 AM  Show Profile  Visit Echo's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by alwayson

Again, merit is accumulated through kundalini type and other tantric practices. This is what is meant by accumulating merit by the perfections.

Who are you to question tantric practice?

You do not understand buddhism at all. There are so many faults in your logic, I do not where to begin honestly.

Good luck trying to achieve rainbow body without tantric practice. This is not authentic teaching. The teachings say that it is possible to achieve Buddhahood in one lifetime ONLY through tantric practice. period. verify for yourself.





I haven't posted here in a long time, but I just wanted to say how much I have enjoyed reading this thread, especially your patient replies to people.

To those struggling to understand what alwayson is talking about, a book that may be useful to read is "Wonders of the Natural Mind" by Tenzin Wangyal Rinposhe.

Way
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divinefurball

USA
138 Posts

Posted - May 03 2009 :  08:47:19 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi alwayson, thank you for your reply. I was questioning you, not Tantra, and I would have thought that Tantric practices might have something to do with kindling infinite generousity through a generous motivation towards all the infinite sentient beings. But you are right, I do not understand Buddhism at all, and there are so many flaws in my logic, I really don't know what I'm talking about, or where to begin. So you please explain for me the nature of merit, tantra, kundalini, and the rainbow body. With willingness to learn, divinefurball
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alwayson

Canada
288 Posts

Posted - May 03 2009 :  10:24:37 AM  Show Profile  Visit alwayson's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
well first of it is generosity and the other perfections, not just generosity. Reread what I wrote originally on previous pages.


Its pretty simple, merit is accumulated through various practices involving the human body.

Edited by - alwayson on May 03 2009 10:32:43 AM
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divinefurball

USA
138 Posts

Posted - May 03 2009 :  10:57:57 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi alwayson, thank you. Please help me re-read with greater understanding by defining what you mean by the word 'merit'. I'm sure I have misunderstood. With gratefull anticipation, divinefurball
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alwayson

Canada
288 Posts

Posted - May 03 2009 :  11:12:47 AM  Show Profile  Visit alwayson's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
merit is something that flows through body
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