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 Other Systems and Alternate Approaches
 Buddhism, The Rainbow Body and Enlightenment
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Page: of 26

divinefurball

USA
138 Posts

Posted - May 03 2009 :  11:30:43 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi alwayson, that is helpfull. Is merit then like, or related to, kundalini, and, or, prana?

Thank you again, divinefurball
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alwayson

Canada
288 Posts

Posted - May 03 2009 :  1:00:41 PM  Show Profile  Visit alwayson's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
something like that

all that stuff is related yes
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krcqimpro1

India
329 Posts

Posted - May 04 2009 :  01:07:46 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi everybody,

Has anybody heard about the spiritual history of Cambodia ? I recently met a Cambodian who is now settled in Montreal, Canada. What he told me about the erstwhile Cambodia was fascinating.

Krish
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divinefurball

USA
138 Posts

Posted - May 04 2009 :  08:55:29 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi alwayson, thanks for that, it helps some. I wish you could specify the relationship between these things a little more for me. Also, I would like to know, does the word 'merit' as you are using it have an ethical component, or is it a purely energetic concept, or what. Seeking understanding, divinefurball
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alwayson

Canada
288 Posts

Posted - May 04 2009 :  2:24:47 PM  Show Profile  Visit alwayson's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
consult a lama
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Ananda

3113 Posts

Posted - May 04 2009 :  3:07:50 PM  Show Profile  Visit Ananda's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
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divinefurball

USA
138 Posts

Posted - May 04 2009 :  9:11:37 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi alwayson. Ha Ha Ha! Ha Ha Ha Ha, alwayson! Thanks for that. I deserve it! If I was right about just one thing, it is that your jokes just get better and better. I am sure you are a Lama, for in addition to sublime humour, and humility, you exemplify generous compassion, knowledge and wisdom in all your posts - that is why I have continued to consult you on this. I could see it right away. I was sure you would be departing for a pure land soon, and I was in such a rush to find out about the rainbow body from you before you left, that my thoughts got all crushed together and were poorly expressed. I apologize, and still wish to learn. I should have asked you to define your terms more clearly form the very beginning, so that I might have better understood, but I take it from your remark that you are leaving now and that I must find another Lama. I rejoice in this for you and for all the infinite sentient beings you have benifited. Reviewing your words about meditation being like a car ("it is just a tool"), I will assume untill corrected, that merit and yoga, are like this too, and are purely energetic concepts not connected with ethics - much like yourself. I will not expect that you become a boddisatva again, alwayson. Surely the merit you have won and are winning will put you beyond all chores - like carrying water, chopping wood etc.

Thank you again for your patience and generousity, alwayson, enjoy the ride.

With Astounded Reverance, divinefurball
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Konchok Ísel Dorje

USA
545 Posts

Posted - May 04 2009 :  10:23:45 PM  Show Profile  Visit Konchok Ísel Dorje's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by standingstone

out of curiosity, what would a buddhist normally consider their highest force for change, either personally or for all beings/existence? would it be 'the intention to become perfectly awakened for the benefit of inifinite sentient beings' or something of that nature?



The highest force for change is the mind. The Right Motivation is a powerful force of that mind.
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Konchok Ísel Dorje

USA
545 Posts

Posted - May 04 2009 :  11:12:54 PM  Show Profile  Visit Konchok Ísel Dorje's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Buddhism is very simple, the simplest. Hard to do. Teacher needed. The Buddha taught that desire is what binds you to Samsara.

For example, if you say, "This is MY view," then this is Suffering in Samsara, because you cling to your self and cling to a view, neither of which are real. You want to be RIGHT.

Another way to understand Samsara is the following: Samsara is a mind which judges or discriminates: likes, dislikes or remains confused as to an object.

To get beyond Samsara you must abide in a mind without judgment.

Any Samadhi which abides with any subtle fixation of "this is right; this is my samadhi; this is silence; this is peace" etc., etc., is within Samsara.

The nature of mind is described in many ways: Self, Buddha-nature, etc. Essentially, mind's real nature is stable, fixed, imperturbable and beyond concepts.

Because the nature of mind has these qualities, thoughts and attachments have no effect. When your meditation is on the nature of mind, AND you abide with no attachment or hope for accomplishment, your mind immediately exits Samsara. The thoughts and feelings extinguish briefly.

As you practice this meditation, your mind becomes re-habituated to it's own enlightened nature.

Now you can accept this or reject this what I am saying. Then, I will say to you that a mind which accepts this or rejects this is in Samsara. To exit Samsara, your mind must abide without acceptance or rejection, in a state of Non-discrimination.

I'm sorry if this was not clear enough:

To be enlightened and attain the rainbow body, one must have a mind abiding with no like, dislike or confusion.

I don't agree with Alwayson, nor to I care to debate. Hindus have attained the Rainbow body. There are different rainbow bodies.

But before you get into the typical "there are many paths leading to the same place," understand that there are high roads, low roads, long roads and short roads to the same place.

The way to tell if your Samadhi is leading to awakening is whether it contains any subtle judgment.

Then, to provide the most energy for your Samadhi, you want to set a high goal, the awakening of all sentient beings, guard your actions, and with the help of a spiritual master you may awaken in this life and progress to precious buddhahood.
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CarsonZi

Canada
3189 Posts

Posted - May 04 2009 :  11:17:46 PM  Show Profile  Visit CarsonZi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks Osel,

I agree 100%.

Love,
Carson

P.S> Not that it matters

Edited by - CarsonZi on May 04 2009 11:18:15 PM
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Parallax

USA
347 Posts

Posted - May 05 2009 :  08:58:04 AM  Show Profile  Visit Parallax's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Osel,

I neither accept nor reject what you are saying

But I do appreciate the insights

Namaste
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alwayson

Canada
288 Posts

Posted - May 05 2009 :  12:33:22 PM  Show Profile  Visit alwayson's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
noone has ever shown me a report of a hindu obtaining rainbow body. They don't have a view of emptiness. They don't dedicate merit. They don't have bodhicitta. The best hindus can wind up is a God like a Shiva.

On the other hand, buddhists and bon seem to be obtaining rainbow body even today. Rainbow body is the sixteenth bhumi. You can't even achieve first bhumi without view of emptiness, merit dedication, aspiration to benefit infinite sentient beings etc.

Edited by - alwayson on May 05 2009 1:09:51 PM
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yogani

USA
5192 Posts

Posted - May 05 2009 :  3:45:51 PM  Show Profile  Visit yogani's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Alwayson:

Enlightenment cannot be known or measured by words or ideology. Only by the thing itself, which is beyond all words and measures.

The question is, do human beings become enlightened in all traditions, and outside the traditions too? Yes, they do, and one enlightenment label cannot be measured against another one by those who have not traveled beyond words and ideology. Those who have will not measure at all.

So go beyond your intellectualizations with spiritual practices, and you will be less inclined to judge others who describe the same human spiritual experiences with different words than you do.

If Hinduism has been a disappointment for you, and Buddhism resonates, then go for it. No one here is opposed to that. Circumstances may be just the opposite for others. It doesn't matter.

What matters is our practice, which enables us to let go of our sectarian views and live the truth/dharma within us. That is the most important thing.

As long as our main concern is for being on the winning team (ideology), we will not be in the game. It isn't about that. Anyone can win on any team. So pick your spot and play with all your heart. These forums are for supporting that, not for quibbling about which tradition is better than another.

The guru is in you.

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Christi

United Kingdom
3893 Posts

Posted - May 05 2009 :  3:46:48 PM  Show Profile  Visit Christi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi alwayson,

quote:
noone has ever shown me a report of a hindu obtaining rainbow body. They don't have a view of emptiness. They don't dedicate merit. They don't have bodhicitta. The best hindus can wind up is a God like a Shiva.

On the other hand, buddhists and bon seem to be obtaining rainbow body even today. Rainbow body is the sixteenth bhumi. You can't even achieve first bhumi without view of emptiness, merit dedication, aspiration to benefit infinite sentient beings etc.


This sounds a lot like "my religion is better than your religion" which we have seen quite a bit of already from Buddhists in this forum. Someone could say that Buddhists do not have a real relationship with Jesus Christ, and so cannot really begin to develop an understanding of spirituality on the higher levels. It doesn't really get anyone anywhere except further away from the truth (Dharma).

The rainbow body is a minor aspect of Buddhist philosophy, and certainly has it's parallels in Hindu teaching where there is a complex understanding of various bodies made of divine light.

There are many strong correlations between Hinduism and Buddhism, including the dedication of merit (called karma yoga in the Hindu tradition), an understanding of emptiness (discussed in the Upanishadic sutras). Bodhicitta is the awakened mind which is an important aspect of the Hindu tradition as well as the Buddhist. There is certainly no concept in Hinduism that rebirth is inevitable, or that it is limited in it's highest reaches only to the heavenly realms.

Maybe a little religious tolerance wouldn't go a miss? Religious tolerance can lead to something called "interfaith understanding", which is as important today as it has always been.

Christi

Edited by - Christi on May 05 2009 3:50:32 PM
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alwayson

Canada
288 Posts

Posted - May 05 2009 :  4:16:51 PM  Show Profile  Visit alwayson's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
"Enlightenment" is not the issue. This thread is about the sixteenth bhumi (rainbow body).

My point is that you can't even achieve the first bhumi unless you are buddhist. This is orthodox buddhist point of view...not my point of view.

A Hindu could obtain first through sixteenth bhumi if he/she had a view of dependent origination/emptiness. But then they would be buddhist since buddhism=dependent origination.

Edited by - alwayson on May 05 2009 5:04:15 PM
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Parallax

USA
347 Posts

Posted - May 05 2009 :  5:46:27 PM  Show Profile  Visit Parallax's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Buddhism = Label

Label = Words

Words < Experience

Let us know if your view changes once you've achieved Rainbow Body...I suspect it will

This is my representation of "Rainbow Face" (which is the 12th Bhumi I think...)
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alwayson

Canada
288 Posts

Posted - May 05 2009 :  7:01:53 PM  Show Profile  Visit alwayson's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
lol

by the way it is called rainbow body, but people who achieve rainbow body do not look like rainbows. They look like they always do, but they have nothing material in their bodies. Or if they don't reach this Great Transfer stage, their material body famously shrinks at "death" (they do not die really) and leaves relics like nails and hair, or even a small body the size of a dinner plate.


p.s. yes buddhism is just a label for dependent origination. And as far as I understand Dzogchen, it is a view beyond concepts.

Edited by - alwayson on May 05 2009 7:51:33 PM
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Konchok Ísel Dorje

USA
545 Posts

Posted - May 06 2009 :  02:36:32 AM  Show Profile  Visit Konchok Ísel Dorje's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
There are high Hindu Tantric meditations which have a view of voidness, samsara and multiple causality. Kashmir Shaivism. Shri Anandamayima was reputed to have attained the rainbow body.

If you can go beyond concepts, and meditate like a Buddha, you will recognize that the View is just a name. If you hold the notion, "this is the view," you will not be in the view.

IMO, Mahamudra and Dzogchen have the best system of teaching how to put emptiness into practice. But there are other traditions with emptiness as the practice.
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Christi

United Kingdom
3893 Posts

Posted - May 06 2009 :  06:47:29 AM  Show Profile  Visit Christi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Alwayson,

You seem to be contradicting yourself at every turn. You say that enlightenment is the same as atainment of the rainbow body, and then you say the thread is only about the atainment of the rainbow body and not about enlightenment.

Buddhism is not another name for dependent origination. Dependent origination is a Buddhist teaching, and is given more importance in some schools than others. It basically says that ignorance leads, through a succession of causal links, to perpetuation in a cycle of rebirth. Nothing more than that. It was one of the teachings of the Buddha, but I would say, not one of his most important teachings. The Buddha never said that an acceptance of the doctrine of dependent origination was necessary either for the attainment of enlightenment or for the attainment of the rainbow body. He also never said that acceptance of the doctrine was necessary in order to practice the Dharma.

The Buddha also never said that attainment of the rainbow body was synonymous with enlightenment. I feel it is important to get some of these facts straight, otherwise we could start going down the road of fundamentalist sectarianism.

Incidentally, the only person I have met who had attained a rainbow body (body of divine glory) was a Christian. It is not really the rainbow body itself which appears as a normal body. That body which appears as a normal body is an emination of the rainbow body (referred to in the Pali Cannon as a mind-made body). The rainbow body itself looks a bit different from a normal human body. It is bigger, and shines with an incredible numinous light that would blind an average human being.



Christi
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alwayson

Canada
288 Posts

Posted - May 06 2009 :  10:07:35 AM  Show Profile  Visit alwayson's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
With respect,

Buddhism=dependent origination. They are the same thing. Dependent origination is also how someone awakens in all buddhist traditions.

Dependent origination is the only thing that ties all Buddhist schools, Theravada, Mahayana, Vajrayana etc together.

I think you should stop with giving faulty knowledge regarding Buddhism repeatedly on this forum. You have proven to not even have basic knowledge of buddhism over and over again.

P.S. Clearly when I used the word enlightenment, I was quoting a previous post of yogani's. I even put it in quotation marks.

Edited by - alwayson on May 06 2009 10:31:25 AM
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Parallax

USA
347 Posts

Posted - May 06 2009 :  10:54:20 AM  Show Profile  Visit Parallax's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
alwayson,

To a visitor who described himself as a seeker after Truth the Master said, "If what you seek is Truth, there is one thing you must have above all else."
"I know. An overwhelming passion for it."
"No. An unremitting readiness to admit you may be wrong."

Much love to you brother
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alwayson

Canada
288 Posts

Posted - May 06 2009 :  11:13:24 AM  Show Profile  Visit alwayson's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
In regard to Truth, Mahayana Buddhism makes no claims....therefore it has none to defend!

Study Nagarjuna.

Edited by - alwayson on May 06 2009 11:21:46 AM
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Parallax

USA
347 Posts

Posted - May 06 2009 :  12:51:37 PM  Show Profile  Visit Parallax's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
I do appreciate the advice, but my plan is to practice rather than study...to understand through experience rather than memorization...but perhaps I am wrong...

By the way, I'm going to go on e-bay and see if I can find one of those small bodies the size of a dinner plate...that sounds cool, might freak-out my kids though...
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Christi

United Kingdom
3893 Posts

Posted - May 06 2009 :  5:46:06 PM  Show Profile  Visit Christi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Alwayson,

With respect, the real joy in Buddhism comes not from analytical study but from practice. In practice the mind is brought repeatedly into silence, and the teachings of the Buddha are understood in a new light. Many aspects of the teachings can only be understood through direct experience. The rainbow body is one example of this... the intellect alone is incapable of fully understanding the glory and holiness of this divine body. We cannot even imagine it. The jhana states are the same... they cannot be described, but have to be experienced to be understood. The four noble truths, the three conditions of phenominal existence, dependent origination... it is all just words until it is illuminated from within. This is the real meaning of jnyana.

Until then, it is just so many words... words which may inspire us to practice, or words which can enmesh us in a prison of our own making. Only you can chose your own dharma.

I wish you all the best.

Christi

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alwayson

Canada
288 Posts

Posted - May 06 2009 :  6:53:10 PM  Show Profile  Visit alwayson's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Buddhist Dzogchen view is beyond the intellect and concepts.

All phenomenon lack inherent essence, including thoughts and emotions. Therefore thoughts and emotions are self-liberated as burglars in an empty house, a snake untying its own knots, or as if meeting an old friend. Pick one of the three. Furthermore thoughts and emotions are merely energy currents in your body. You can actually feel emotions in the physical chakras.

Also there is heavy emphasis in Dzogchen about the present moment.

Edited by - alwayson on May 06 2009 7:34:57 PM
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