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Christi

United Kingdom
3893 Posts

Posted - Jan 20 2013 :  7:44:32 PM  Show Profile  Visit Christi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Jeff,

Three life times! I was hoping this would take a couple of months max!

Only kidding.

Do Buddhists recognise the production of amrita and recognise it as playing a role in the creation of the body of light?

Also, do you know what the next stage is after the realisation of the clear mind?

And do you know what the transmission is? Is it a verbal teaching transmission or a direct transmission of light?

Christi
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Holy

796 Posts

Posted - Jan 20 2013 :  8:39:54 PM  Show Profile  Visit Holy's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Christi,

Gurunath also writes about the rainbow body in his book and mentions the ingestion of mercury.

Most of the siddhas created the godmode-body through extreme and prolonged practices of pranayama according to their own recordings in different sources. But some of them needed to take a special herbal-mineral-combination called kaya kalpa which prolonged the life of their physical body long enough to create the permanent-body.

To the question why: most probably it is the natural evolution of the body-mind to express what is eternal to the fullest possible which would be the eternal body-mind =P It may happen through who knows how long of the natural human progression or through more direct means.

But to my feeling it is not a practical topic (if ever) before the breathless and pulseless states of nirvikalpa samadhi, which accoring to Gurunath are several samadhis before the rainbow body becomes even possible.

The potential is surely there, so lets see =P
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jeff

USA
971 Posts

Posted - Jan 20 2013 :  10:11:48 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Christi

Hi Jeff,

Three life times! I was hoping this would take a couple of months max!

Only kidding.

Do Buddhists recognise the production of amrita and recognise it as playing a role in the creation of the body of light?

Also, do you know what the next stage is after the realisation of the clear mind?

And do you know what the transmission is? Is it a verbal teaching transmission or a direct transmission of light?

Christi



Hi Christi,

Can you describe (or point me to a web/book description) of what you mean by the "production of Amrita"? Then I can give you a better answer. In general, Buddhism does not introduce any energy practice until after clear mind. Tummo is the first "defined" energy practice and it is basically like conscious control of Kundalini. Taoism, Bon and gnostic Christianity have more energy practices that may be more helpful and map to Amrita.

The next stage after clear mind is the beginning of "oneness". Where astral is "viewing", oneness is being/knowing. If you are interested, I can post "rough" progression stages, with some signs and impact on the energy body? Maybe you could help fill in some of your experience/details.

On transmission... In it's richest form it is "light based". But, in lower components can be mind-mind. Oral becomes meaningless because one is trying to convey what is beyond the mind/senses to normally perceive. Also, while in theory it is one transmission, that would require perfect clarity. Hence, depending on the source, it is more of an ongoing unfolding (bit by bit), while one continues to remove obstructions. Depending on your perspective, the light body is the integration with all of "existence" or the tearing down of "existence" into the component pieces.

Also, I am not saying that I believe that a "living" rainbow body master is necessary. But, I also have not "found" one.

Best, Jeff
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Christi

United Kingdom
3893 Posts

Posted - Jan 21 2013 :  07:01:05 AM  Show Profile  Visit Christi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Holy,

quote:
Gurunath also writes about the rainbow body in his book and mentions the ingestion of mercury.

Most of the siddhas created the godmode-body through extreme and prolonged practices of pranayama according to their own recordings in different sources. But some of them needed to take a special herbal-mineral-combination called kaya kalpa which prolonged the life of their physical body long enough to create the permanent-body.


I don't think I am going to ingest any mercury. I have heard that mercury is a metaphor for the manipura chakra, and the manipura chakra is involved in the creation of soma which is a substance involved in the production of amrita. So maybe Gurunath was taking things too literally.

If this does take more than a couple of months I'll see if I can get hold of some kaya-kalpa to prolong the existence of my physical body. I'm only 42 so lets hope it doesn't take that long.

Christi
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Christi

United Kingdom
3893 Posts

Posted - Jan 21 2013 :  07:20:52 AM  Show Profile  Visit Christi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Jeff

quote:
Hi Christi,

Can you describe (or point me to a web/book description) of what you mean by the "production of Amrita"? Then I can give you a better answer. In general, Buddhism does not introduce any energy practice until after clear mind. Tummo is the first "defined" energy practice and it is basically like conscious control of Kundalini. Taoism, Bon and gnostic Christianity have more energy practices that may be more helpful and map to Amrita.


I can't really point you to any good source on the production of amrita. I can describe it though. It is a liquid formed of condensed prana which oozes from the higher energetic centres and drips down from there. It can drip down inside the body or around the outside of the body (dripping down the skin). It is re-absorbed into the energetic body again lower down where it seems to enhance or illuminate the energetic body.

See here:

http://www.aypsite.org/304.html

Or here:

http://www.traditionalyogastudies.c...dy-by-white/

(paragraph 10)

quote:

The next stage after clear mind is the beginning of "oneness". Where astral is "viewing", oneness is being/knowing. If you are interested, I can post "rough" progression stages, with some signs and impact on the energy body? Maybe you could help fill in some of your experience/details.


It sounds like the clear mind is what we in yoga would call the witness, and oneness is what we would call unity, the union of the witness with that which is witnessed. Yes, if you would post progression stages that would be great.

quote:

On transmission... In it's richest form it is "light based". But, in lower components can be mind-mind. Oral becomes meaningless because one is trying to convey what is beyond the mind/senses to normally perceive. Also, while in theory it is one transmission, that would require perfect clarity. Hence, depending on the source, it is more of an ongoing unfolding (bit by bit), while one continues to remove obstructions. Depending on your perspective, the light body is the integration with all of "existence" or the tearing down of "existence" into the component pieces.





Yes, one of my teachers in India gives mind-mind transmission as you describe. In yoga it is called darshan. Another of my teachers in Rishikesh used to give me light based transmissions.
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jeff

USA
971 Posts

Posted - Jan 21 2013 :  09:01:45 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Christi,

Thanks for the Amrita description. Somehow I had gotten the impression that you meant something beyond the lesson 304 description. Yes, Amrita seems to be an important part of the body conversion. In Taoism, it would be called a by-product of the production of "Jing". It is an important part of the break down/conversion of the "chakra energy body" and I also believe it changes the body at a cellular level. It seems to almost make the body ready for the higher energy level of "light".

Also, the "witness" is not the same level as "clear mind". The "witness" is an early stage of "watching thoughts". One begins to "separate" them self from the notion of thoughts "passing by". Random thoughts passing by are from subconscious issues/fears/memories that are stored in the mind/body. One reaches "clear mind", when those energy structures of issues & fears have been released/let go and there are no fears or "random thoughts" passing by. Hence, since the mind is naturally quiet, there is no difference between meditation and normal daily life. The description of "unity" is somewhat open, so it makes it hard to do a comparative mapping.

With your teacher who did the light based transmission, did it feel like he/she overlapped their "presence" with you as part of the process?

I will post a stages/progression in a new thread later today.

Best regards, Jeff

p.s. All of the information (non-published) on extending the life of the physical body suggests that the key is in the perfect balance of male and female energies.

Edited by - jeff on Jan 21 2013 09:05:00 AM
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Christi

United Kingdom
3893 Posts

Posted - Jan 21 2013 :  09:20:26 AM  Show Profile  Visit Christi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Jeff,

quote:

Also, the "witness" is not the same level as "clear mind". The "witness" is an early stage of "watching thoughts". One begins to "separate" them self from the notion of thoughts "passing by". Random thoughts passing by are from subconscious issues/fears/memories that are stored in the mind/body. One reaches "clear mind", when those energy structures of issues & fears have been released/let go and there are no fears or "random thoughts" passing by.


O.K. this doesn't map completely. There is the state of "inner silence", where thoughts may or may not be present and the "thoughtless state" which is a deepened state of inner silence where thoughts are not present (hence the name).

quote:
With your teacher who did the light based transmission, did it feel like he/she overlapped their "presence" with you as part of the process?


Yes, definitely a sense that he extended himself into me, overlapping as you say. And a light came out of his eyes and entered my eyes and somehow descended into my heart.

Christi
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jeff

USA
971 Posts

Posted - Jan 21 2013 :  10:15:57 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Christi

Hi Jeff,

quote:

Also, the "witness" is not the same level as "clear mind". The "witness" is an early stage of "watching thoughts". One begins to "separate" them self from the notion of thoughts "passing by". Random thoughts passing by are from subconscious issues/fears/memories that are stored in the mind/body. One reaches "clear mind", when those energy structures of issues & fears have been released/let go and there are no fears or "random thoughts" passing by.


O.K. this doesn't map completely. There is the state of "inner silence", where thoughts may or may not be present and the "thoughtless state" which is a deepened state of inner silence where thoughts are not present (hence the name).

quote:
With your teacher who did the light based transmission, did it feel like he/she overlapped their "presence" with you as part of the process?


Yes, definitely a sense that he extended himself into me, overlapping as you say. And a light came out of his eyes and entered my eyes and somehow descended into my heart.

Christi



Hi Christi,

On "witness" vs. "clear mind"... The real test is in normal daily life. Meditation is "easy". Things like... Do you pay complete attention listening when your wife is talking about something boring or does the mind drift off to other things? Ever get irritated when you are stuck in traffic? See an attractive woman and "whoa" pop in to your mind? A good and simple test is... has one ever been angry (or felt hurt) in the last year?

Also, thanks on the description. My experience has been the same. "Light" transmissions are based at the "heart". To be able to "receive", one must have a "wide open" heart. Since light based transmissions are not really at a "visible" level, it was most likely your "mind" translating the experience to coming out of the eyes. Your "seeing" it like that means that you probably perceive at the "astral level". Do you "travel" and "see stuff"? If so, I can explain some of the completion stage practices in astral/transmission terms.

Best, Jeff
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Christi

United Kingdom
3893 Posts

Posted - Jan 21 2013 :  11:01:38 AM  Show Profile  Visit Christi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:

Also, thanks on the description. My experience has been the same. "Light" transmissions are based at the "heart". To be able to "receive", one must have a "wide open" heart. Since light based transmissions are not really at a "visible" level, it was most likely your "mind" translating the experience to coming out of the eyes. Your "seeing" it like that means that you probably perceive at the "astral level". Do you "travel" and "see stuff"? If so, I can explain some of the completion stage practices in astral/transmission terms.



Hi Jeff,

I was able to perceive the light using astral vision. But yes, it wouldn't be visible to the physical eyes.

I have travelled, but don't make a habit of it. I received a light transmissions once from a being in the higher realms, much stronger than that on earth. I have seen angels and other higher beings and listened to their singing. It's not something I ever try to do though, it just happens spontaneously.

Christi
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jeff

USA
971 Posts

Posted - Jan 21 2013 :  11:49:43 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Christi,

Thanks for sharing. It is very beautiful. Receiving light transmissions from beings in higher realms is one of the main practices of the buddhist "completion stage". That was the reason why I said that one does not need a "living" master. As you described, when the person is "ready", everyone seems to have a "higher being" (or beings) that help out with "light transmissions". I would also agree that they are much stronger than that on earth. In that event, you may already "have what you need" for the light body. I am pretty slow (and still have obstructions) , so "once" was not enough for me.

Enjoy the moment,

Jeff

p.s. I realize you already know most of this stuff, but thought the extra details might be helpful for other readers.

p.p.s. Stages of progression thread posted...

Edited by - jeff on Jan 21 2013 1:03:35 PM
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Christi

United Kingdom
3893 Posts

Posted - Jan 21 2013 :  2:00:02 PM  Show Profile  Visit Christi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Jeff,

Thanks for all the advice. I'll update here occasionally on how things progress.

I read through the stages of progression post. Very interesting, thanks.

I'll link to it here, otherwise it will get lost from this discussion.

All the best

Christi
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jeff

USA
971 Posts

Posted - Jan 21 2013 :  2:06:41 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Christi,

Anything that you have found to be different? Or, anything that you would use different words to describe?

Regards, Jeff
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Christi

United Kingdom
3893 Posts

Posted - Jan 21 2013 :  2:30:40 PM  Show Profile  Visit Christi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Jeff,

It all rings true here. I wouldn't quibble over words.

On no. 10 it says: "On the astral level, the light body looks like a blob/ball of light.". I have seen souls travelling in a body of light as a ball of light, but I have also seen souls travelling in a body of light which has human form, or the form of an angel?

That's the only bit I would question.
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jeff

USA
971 Posts

Posted - Jan 21 2013 :  3:02:58 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Christi

Hi Jeff,

It all rings true here. I wouldn't quibble over words.

On no. 10 it says: "On the astral level, the light body looks like a blob/ball of light.". I have seen souls travelling in a body of light as a ball of light, but I have also seen souls travelling in a body of light which has human form, or the form of an angel?

That's the only bit I would question.



Hi Christi,

Thanks. That is a helpful point. I kind of left the whole concept of "Angels" (or elemental energy forms) out of the discussion. We are already covering quite a bit in this discussion (where no one will believe us...). But, yes, I would agree there are more examples of "balls of light".

Thanks.

Edited by - jeff on Jan 21 2013 3:05:44 PM
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kami

USA
920 Posts

Posted - Jan 23 2013 :  10:00:04 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Dear Christi and Jeff,

Pardon me in advance if the questions below have been addressed in the 24 pages of this thread. I have not read through all of it.

quote:
Originally posted by Christi

I've now begun the process of creating the rainbow body.


Like Maha, my respectful question is why? Also, at what kosha level is the light and/or the rainbow body? I'm confused by the terminology of "completion stage". Brahman/Self is the Absolute - all koshas are superficial in relation to this. Thus, if there is building of the rainbow body, "who" is building it (particularly if this is a conscious, willful practice)? Or is it just of academic interest?

quote:
Originally posted by jeff

The "rainbow body" is essentially the highest in Buddhism. It is being a "full" Buddha. After "attaining" one continues on so that they can better "help" all sentient beings to realize the truth. It is also the sign of a mahasiddha, so kind of like being realized but also with "powers/siddhis".


Is there a "not full" Buddha? And I ask this very seriously. By Buddha (awake), is it not the unequivocal knowing of Truth/Brahman? Would you mind clarifying which branch of Buddhism this relates to? Although I have far less knowledge of Buddhism, I'm not aware of this being a teaching of Shakyamuni Buddha. His original teachings (such as the Dhammapada) are as Advaitic/Vedantic as they get (it is also quite likely that being attracted to Advaita Vedanta, I've interpreted those teachings that way. You know what they say about the carpenter with a nail!).

Also, "who" is helping "who"?

If you were to say that the rainbow body is a natural progression of the state of enlightenment (literally, embodying the light), that would be a different thing. If there is someone there to "help" another "less fortunate" soul, by definition, is that "helper" a true Buddha (awake)?

It is an interesting phenomenon on these forums that very often, so many post related topics almost simultaneously Like here:
http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....PIC_ID=12481

In the instance of Mooji (or any other teacher), isn't it possible that they are beyond paying attention to the "drama" occuring at the level of the (more) superficial koshas, and content to remain as Self?

For example, Bhagavan Ramana was full of miracles from the perspective of everyone around him, yet he remained oblivious to them all, firmly abiding as the Self. "Help" flowed from him to all that needed it (and to many who were unaware), yet, his teaching is the same as Jesus': Find first the kingdom of Heaven..

When Jesus or Buddha healed others, was it not a spontaneous flow? Did they think, "This is me, Jesus (or Buddha/Siddhartha), healing so-and-so?"

So, what is the concept of helping with relation to the rainbow body? How is turning the physical body to light/rainbow of help to anyone else?

Also, is it possible to have a rainbow body yet not know the Self?

So sorry for pestering you both. This is a fascinating topic, and I'm sure many others on the forum may have similar questions.

Thanks in advance for your patience.

kami

Edited by - kami on Jan 23 2013 10:08:38 AM
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Namath

350 Posts

Posted - Jan 23 2013 :  11:29:15 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi

It seems there's someone x2 who are on the same frequency like I am.

Same question rises up here when I read a little about this topic and the stages of progression.
Can I as me ever be enlightened. <retorical question>
Isn't the Self/Allah ever and always realized.

When I shared this,obviously my aim was not just to chat.

http://www.aypsite.org/forum/topic....12456#106501

I was in the presence of a realised Soul and all he shared was a smile,a delight chat and lot of LOLz.Not for an instance, he tried to trasmit that I needed any help...

Although he did impress me by speaking my native lauguage & telling me my mother name...of course with a laugh n without any seriousness.

& after I realised Who he is...I asked him for any last word before I leave....All he said "Just stay Happy....& beautiful"

Much Love to all.

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Christi

United Kingdom
3893 Posts

Posted - Jan 23 2013 :  12:39:07 PM  Show Profile  Visit Christi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Kami,

What a lot of questions? I wonder who is asking them?

Seriously though, I am sure I cannot answer them all, but I will try to answer those that I can.

As to the why question, that one isn't so obvious so I can understand the confusion. The best I can say is that it is a natural progression on the path and a part of the evolution of consciousness. You could say "why practice pranayama?" or "why meditate?", or "why practice self-inquiry?". As you reach one stage, there is a natural calling to progress on to the next.

In terms of koshas, it would be anandamaya kosha, the "body created from bliss". In terms of Brahman, Brahman is everything and everywhere, so Brahman is as present in the koshas as anywhere else. In this sense nothing is superficial in relation to Brahman. But in terms of knowing Brahman, Brahman is only known to those who have realized Him, which depends on the process of purification of the subtle nervous system. The process of the creation of the body of light, is part the process of purification.

As to what branch of Buddhism this refers to, I think a lot of the Buddhist terminology in this thread comes from Vajrayana Buddhism, Tantric Buddhism and Mahayana Buddhism. I don't think there are any records of the Shakyamuni Buddha talking about this stuff, but I wouldn't say his teachings were exclusively advaitic. He taught certain practices for people to do in order to progress on the spiritual path including meditation, restraints and observances.

As to the question of "who is helping who?", who is Yogani helping by making his teachings available on the internet? Or by selling books? The simple and easy answer is, "everyone who reads them". Who is Mooji helping by giving teachings on advaita? Hopefully the answer would be: "everyone who listens to him".

As to the question of some spiritual teachers residing in the Self, and not paying attention to the more superficial koshas, personally I wouldn't class any aspect of existence as superficial, or even as relatively superficial. Enlightenment is not complete until it embraces every aspect of existence. As long as you can say "this is superficial, whilst this other thing is meaningful" then you have created a division. Division is always based in the mind, and is dvaita by it's very nature. One of the interesting things about many advaita teachers is that they are actually teaching dvaita. The supreme state is not one of denying the world, but of embracing it fully.

The "spontaneous flow" of healing energy that you mention regarding Ramana Maharshi, would happen because of the state of purification of his subtle bodies and happened because of the work that he did to purify those bodies.
That work took many years and mostly involved pranayama and meditation.

The concept of helping with regards to the body of light is based on the theory of ecstatic radiance. The body itself radiates healing energy continuously to everyone who is around. It is mentioned here in the main lessons:

"in time we will become radiating beacons of divine light floating in the air. Then who will be able to deny what we human beings are?" [lesson 153]

As to the question of "is it possible to have a rainbow body yet not know the Self"? Part of the process of the creation of amrita involves the full purification of the crown chakra. Part of the purification of the crown chakra involves the disollution into pure-bliss-consciousness (sat chit ananda). The hallmarks of the higher Self are existence absolute, consciousness absolute and bliss absolute. So the early stages of the creation of the body of light involve knowing the Self. By this I mean knowing yourself to be radiant awareness, not separate from anything or anyone.

Christi
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jeff

USA
971 Posts

Posted - Jan 23 2013 :  12:40:48 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Kami,

I will respond from where you seemed to address your post to me. But, feel free to follow up if you also wanted me to respond to your first section.

By "Full Buddha", I meant it in the classic Buddhist definition of all "realizations", and hence also the "rainbow body". Buddhism also has descriptions like "arahat", where one is "realized", but does not "come back and help". Also, I believe the definitions are consistent with most Buddhist paths ( the sutra's are pretty specific), but I am not a Buddhist practioner and not familiar with all variations. I also agree that there are many excellent equivalent things in the Hindu tradition. This was just a thread on Budhism and the light body.

Your "who" is helping "who" is a complicated question and is usually related to the "ego" and not the "Self". As Yogani describes in the lessons and posts, "unique perspective" of consciousness does not cease (but, I don't claim to be "one with God").

As I said in the stages post, one "notices" awareness and then can integrate (continue to remove obstructions) or not. The rainbow body is the natural process of those who "continue on". In other traditions, it is the difference between "staying on the mountaintop" or "coming back into the world" to help. It is also sometimes described as "finding the inner chamber of the heart" (or 8th chakra).

On Mooji (and others), it is not really my place to comment on their perspective or understanding. But, I think a recent YouTube forum post will give you a good view of Mooji's understanding and perspective.

No one who has reached the "level of oneness" (building the light body) would think that they are actually doing the healing. It is more like the light is "flowing through" them. But, like in Samyama, it is possible to have "intent" or maybe "direct the flow" a little.

It depends on your definition of "know the Self", but it is not possible to first build the light body. What I believe you are calling know the Self is more like "noticing the Self". The rainbow body is more like "full integration" of all aspects with the Self

Always enjoy the conversation and the moment,

Best wishes, Jeff

(edit - sorry cross posted with Christi )

Edited by - jeff on Jan 23 2013 12:43:26 PM
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jeff

USA
971 Posts

Posted - Jan 23 2013 :  12:45:46 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Namath,

Were your questions answered in the above posts?

Best, Jeff
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maheswari

Lebanon
2500 Posts

Posted - Jan 23 2013 :  12:55:42 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
i meant to respectfully say that this is too complex...all those words and stages etc...
which reminded me of lesson 423 (where the rainbow body is mentioned by the questioner)
simple is good


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Namath

350 Posts

Posted - Jan 23 2013 :  1:02:12 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by jeff

Hi Namath,

Were your questions answered in the above posts?

Best, Jeff



yes Jeff...this did

"The rainbow body is the natural process of those who "continue on".

Love.
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kami

USA
920 Posts

Posted - Jan 23 2013 :  1:26:03 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Christi


What a lot of questions? I wonder who is asking them?




Trust me, I knew that was coming.

quote:
As to the why question, that one isn't so obvious so I can understand the confusion. The best I can say is that it is a natural progression on the path and a part of the evolution of consciousness. You could say "why practice pranayama?" or "why meditate?", or "why practice self-inquiry?". As you reach one stage, there is a natural calling to progress on to the next.


Thank you. That was the purport of the question - if it was indeed a natural calling or natural progression.

Not sure if why practice pranayama, etc relate to this, particularly because building the rainbow body is being defined as a "completion stage practice", assuming that one is beyond all the "non-completion practices" like pranayama, self-inquiry etc. When one is One with all, residing in and as Brahman, isn't that completion?

quote:
In terms of koshas, it would be anandamaya kosha, the "body created from bliss". In terms of Brahman, Brahman is everything and everywhere, so Brahman is as present in the koshas as anywhere else. In this sense nothing is superficial in relation to Brahman. But in terms of knowing Brahman, Brahman is only known to those who have realized Him, which depends on the process of purification of the subtle nervous system. The process of the creation of the body of light, is part the process of purification.


Agreed about Brahman being everything. But my specific question was (reiterated differently) - who is aware of the rainbow (or any other) body?

Also, are you saying that Brahman cannot be known without such purification whereby one can astral travel, connect to divine beings, etc? Perhaps I'm confusing those with your definition of purification. Would love some insight into this..

quote:
As to the question of some spiritual teachers residing in the Self, and not paying attention to the more superficial koshas, personally I wouldn't class any aspect of existence as superficial, or even as relatively superficial. Enlightenment is not complete until it embraces every aspect of existence. As long as you can say "this is superficial, whilst this other thing is meaningful" then you have created a division. Division is always based in the mind, and is dvaita by it's very nature. One of the interesting things about many advaita teachers is that they are actually teaching dvaita. The supreme state is not one of denying the world, but of embracing it fully.


Very beautifully said!

By "not paying attention", I did not mean "not accepting". I apologize for the inference. Just stating that things happening at the level of the different (albeit subtle) koshas don't seem to be as important to some of these teachers - not because they are rejecting them, but because they don't seem to get distracted by them, even though they are very much real and occuring.

quote:
As to the question of "is it possible to have a rainbow body yet not know the Self"? Part of the process of the creation of amrita involves the full purification of the crown chakra. Part of the purification of the crown chakra involves the disollution into pure-bliss-consciousness (sat chit ananda). The hallmarks of the higher Self are existence absolute, consciousness absolute and bliss absolute. So the early stages of the creation of the body of light involve knowing the Self. By this I mean knowing yourself to be radiant awareness, not separate from anything or anyone.



You bring up an excellent point (for more questions, of course )

Can amrita occur without "full" purification of the crown chakra? I ask because many practitioners (myself included) have had the experience of amrita. Speaking for myself, I cannot say that when it began, there was full purification. Nor do I think that purification is complete (or will be anytime soon); yet it flows.. How come?

Appreciate your patience. One thing is evident - you radiate healing, divine presence. The rainbow body is redundant for you IMO.

kami
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kami

USA
920 Posts

Posted - Jan 23 2013 :  1:54:09 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by jeff

By "Full Buddha", I meant it in the classic Buddhist definition of all "realizations", and hence also the "rainbow body". Buddhism also has descriptions like "arahat", where one is "realized", but does not "come back and help".


Thanks.

quote:
As I said in the stages post, one "notices" awareness and then can integrate (continue to remove obstructions) or not. The rainbow body is the natural process of those who "continue on". In other traditions, it is the difference between "staying on the mountaintop" or "coming back into the world" to help. It is also sometimes described as "finding the inner chamber of the heart" (or 8th chakra).


Sorry, this is too complicated

For one, "finding the heart cave" has little to do with staying on the mountaintop or not. Please correct me if this is not so. Do folks that stay on the mountaintop do so because they have not found the heart cave?

When you say one notices awareness, to me, that is rooted in "not One". Do you mean "one knows beyond a doubt they are awareness itself"? Don't mean to split hairs, but witnessing (although crucial), is not the same as knowing oneself. "Noticing" awareness, to me, is witnessing.

There is quite a lot of hoopla about "staying on the mountaintop" vs. "coming down to help", as if one is better than the other. Who is to say that the "staying on the mountaintop" of some realized masters is not helping mankind infinitely, perhaps more than all the other kinds of "help"? Who is to judge this, and how does one know without a doubt that one way is better than another for all the realized masters "out there"?

quote:
On Mooji (and others), it is not really my place to comment on their perspective or understanding. But, I think a recent YouTube forum post will give you a good view of Mooji's understanding and perspective.


Sorry I wasn't clear about this. It was not about Mooji or anyone in particular, but about their (presumed) attitude toward phenomena occurring in various koshas. Besides, I'm not in favor of judging of one's understanding and perspective based on one (or any number of) YouTube video(s).

quote:
No one who has reached the "level of oneness" (building the light body) would think that they are actually doing the healing.


Please forgive my persistence and for not being the brightest here.

Level of Oneness, to me, implies knowing Brahman, one without a second, the nothing that is everything. I still don't get how building a light body intentionally ("I will now build a light body" is the intention, isn't it?) corresponds to knowing, without a doubt, "I am That". If there isn't that intention, but the body changes into light/rainbow as a result of knowing "I am That", it makes total sense.

Thanks again for the discussion and for your patience. Appreciate it greatly.

kami
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maheswari

Lebanon
2500 Posts

Posted - Jan 23 2013 :  2:58:44 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
how building a light body intentionally ("I will now build a light body" is the intention, isn't it?) corresponds to knowing, without a doubt, "I am That". If there isn't that intention, but the body changes into light/rainbow as a result of knowing "I am That", it makes total sense.

same question over here
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Christi

United Kingdom
3893 Posts

Posted - Jan 23 2013 :  5:10:16 PM  Show Profile  Visit Christi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Kami,

quote:
Not sure if why practice pranayama, etc relate to this, particularly because building the rainbow body is being defined as a "completion stage practice", assuming that one is beyond all the "non-completion practices" like pranayama, self-inquiry etc.


Above I mentioned the practices that I am using, which are pranayama, meditation, mudras, bhandas, samyama, brahmanchari and so on. It isn't the case that one practice stops and another starts, it's just a deepening of the same process. Terms like "completion stage practices" come from the Buddhist mahayana tradition and I agree are possibly misleading.

quote:
When one is One with all, residing in and as Brahman, isn't that completion?


In a nutshell, no. There is no end point to the journey, it simply continues to evolve going deeper and deeper. This is what Yogani said about it:

"there is no end destination where we can say, "I have arrived!" Be leery of anyone who proclaims that. When we are there, we will not be exclaiming anything. The greatest enlightenment is the one that does not speak much of itself. It only does for others, continuing the purification and opening in everyone. And that too is an ongoing journey." [lesson 318]

So this thread is about that ongoing journey.

quote:
Agreed about Brahman being everything. But my specific question was (reiterated differently) - who is aware of the rainbow (or any other) body?


Ultimately only Brahman is aware of anything. But for convention we use words like "I" and "you" in speech. With regard to specific individuals (infinite aspects of Brahman), only those with an awakened subtle vision can perceive the body of light.

quote:
Also, are you saying that Brahman cannot be known without such purification whereby one can astral travel, connect to divine beings, etc? Perhaps I'm confusing those with your definition of purification. Would love some insight into this.


Knowing Brahman is the same as knowing the Self, which is an ever deepening process and the process of purification is a vital aspect of that. There are some side-effects of purification as the process deepens such as astral travel, the development of the subtle senses, meeting higher beings and so on, but they are only side effects. The essential thing is the purification.

quote:
By "not paying attention", I did not mean "not accepting". I apologize for the inference. Just stating that things happening at the level of the different (albeit subtle) koshas don't seem to be as important to some of these teachers - not because they are rejecting them, but because they don't seem to get distracted by them, even though they are very much real and occuring.


Essentially it is the world of form which poses the biggest distraction for people during the early stages of the path. Identification with the body and with the content of the mind makes up almost 100 percent of most people's lives. So to help people, many spiritual teachers emphasise that which is beyond form. But ultimately, that which is beyond form is only half the equation, and a full integration of the manifest and the non-manifest has to take place. The development of the body of light is part of this process, which is why Jeff mentions above that it is a necessary part of the knowing of the Self.

quote:
Can amrita occur without "full" purification of the crown chakra? I ask because many practitioners (myself included) have had the experience of amrita. Speaking for myself, I cannot say that when it began, there was full purification. Nor do I think that purification is complete (or will be anytime soon); yet it flows.. How come?


Yes, in my experience amrita can begin to flow in small amounts from the beginning of the purification of the crown chakra. But I don't think it flows in the quantities necessary for the development of the body of light until later when the purification is nearing completion. This is an experiment though, and I'll happily let you know if I am wrong.

Christi
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