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faileforever
USA
190 Posts |
 Posted - Jan 23 2013 : 6:13:41 PM
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Very much enjoyed your post Christi, thanks.  |
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Jan 23 2013 : 6:51:50 PM
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Hi Kami,
I would agree with Christi's excellent post. Was there some aspect of your questions to me that was not covered?
Big smile and best wishes, Jeff |
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kami
USA
920 Posts |
Posted - Jan 23 2013 : 8:48:42 PM
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Hi Christi,
Thanks. Wonderful explanation.
However, I think my broad question has not been answered, or even understood.
No worries. Good luck to you on your path.
kami |
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kami
USA
920 Posts |
Posted - Jan 23 2013 : 8:50:19 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by jeff
Hi Kami,
I would agree with Christi's excellent post. Was there some aspect of your questions to me that was not covered?
Big smile and best wishes, Jeff
Yes, but it is of no matter.
Best wishes on your path. |
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Holy
796 Posts |
Posted - Jan 23 2013 : 9:20:41 PM
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Hi Christi,
coming back to the mercury. It is not a metaphor, Gurunath himself consumes it and he shares it with others who visit him in his ashram. In some youtube vids he also talks about it. Mercury itself is toxic if you enhale it, but through some alchemistic transformation it can be ingested. It's effects culminate together with the ongoing spiritual practice to different results. Starting with the increasing capacity of the body-mind for high awareness and energy and continuing in having something to do with the permanent body =P
In this vid he explains some aspects of mercury:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAeb_uuuRlY
There was one more vid regarding the mercury tea he shares in his ashram which I didn't find right now =P The hints for the rainbow body regarding mercury are found in his book wings to freedom.
--
Soma and amrita are both part of this transformation for sure =P
Btw, thanks to all those godmode yogis the knowledge and science of yoga is so detailedly available with all its obvious effects including all those posting in this forum. In that sense the rainbow body has its function, still it does seem to get a practical topic only for latestage practitioners.
Yet the discussion needs to start somewhere and this is one of the most capable open forums for it =)
Sp, happy practicing =)
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Christi
United Kingdom
4364 Posts |
Posted - Jan 23 2013 : 10:32:54 PM
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Hi Holy,
I didn't mean that Gurunath uses the word mercury as a metaphor, but rather that the use of the word in alchemical writings is usually as a metaphor. It means quite a few things, but amongst them are: "a secret internally working fire", "the air, breath, wind and spirit", and "the union of the masculine and feminine". Clearly it has a lot to do with enlightenment. But I am not an expert on alchemy.
Thanks for the links.
Christi |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4364 Posts |
Posted - Jan 23 2013 : 10:40:34 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by kami
Hi Christi,
Thanks. Wonderful explanation.
However, I think my broad question has not been answered, or even understood.
No worries. Good luck to you on your path.
kami
Hi Kami,
I didn't answer your broader question because it is not something that can be answered using words, but something that can only be known through direct experience.
When it comes to matters of the Divine, words fall short, and there is nothing to say, but still, there is action (and intention) born from love.
I hope that makes some sense.
Christi |
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kami
USA
920 Posts |
Posted - Jan 24 2013 : 07:15:23 AM
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Hi Christi,
Thanks, but I wasn't asking for a description of Brahman. No amount of intellectualization will do; That is known only by direct experience. Words simply get in the way.
"That" is also! on a permanent and abiding basis as attachments are let go of - what you may call obstructions. However, absolutely NOTHING needs to be added (as in a light or any other body) to know That. Because it is not "out there" to "get to". It is the eternal now, the most obvious thing.. It is actually who we already are (yes I know that sounds like neo-Advaita blah-blah, but words do get in the way..)
There is a very poignant reason why this path is called "the razor's edge" - traps are so subtle that we can't even see them. The more advanced, the subtler the trap. Yes, Brahman is "everything", but the crucial story is that it is the "nothing" (Shiva) that is "everything" (Shakti). Everything = objects in consciousness appearing "as" consciousness. Knowing only the "nothing" is duality. Thinking "everything" is That and therefore pursuit of this or that is justified and attachment to subtle forms is ok - a trap.
There is nothing wrong about building a muscular body, a flexible body, or a rainbow body. That's fun, and I look forward to your accounts of progress. But "building" something in anticipation of a future "self-perfected" state is not being awake, the first characteristic of which is "being" the now. Just ideas, and imagination.
Ultimately there are only two "stages" - awake or not awake. All else is noise, no matter how pleasant, addictive or otherwise. Energy/kundalini is probably a necessity, as I'm coming to see in my own experience. But Shakti is another form of the revered Devi, Maya... Not to be taken lightly in her ability to keep one ensnared in the world of form.. It is likely that masters like Bhagavan or others, by not being ensnared by such distractions and giving Shakti dominance, were able to "tame" Her (don't mean any disrespect) to come into harmony and become Shiva-Shakti. All powers, light and bodies were "given" to them because they remained firmly planted AS Brahman.
Two cents
kami
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Edited by - kami on Jan 24 2013 07:49:13 AM |
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Jan 24 2013 : 11:25:51 AM
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Hi Kami,
Christi (and I) are not saying that the "light body" is really about building something. That is just an expression, or a Buddhist way of describing what we would call the ongoing "letting go" of obstructions even after there has been some level of "realization".
I think your specific question is covered well by Abhinavagupta (~1,000 AD) in his overview of the "Short Gloss on the Supreme: The Queen of the Three Paratrisikalaghuvrttih"
On your point of "why continue on", he says...
"[Objection:] But what is the use of that once it is known?
[Response:] As soon as this means is known, the khecari--the power of Consciousness--penetrates into the level of awakened consciousness, and obtains, goes, knows, the state of identity (samata), the state of fullness of the self, the state of non-dual, nondiscursive awareness.
When that means is not known, such a consciousness is not khecari because it moves only in the portion called "knowable object" whose nature is unawakened. That consciousness is then restricted by knowable objects such as blue, and so on, and is thus not the full power of consciousness."
Consciousness is unbounded. Siddhis are not really "powers", but the natural "unbinding" of consciousness. That is what Christi is saying and what the "building the light body" is really about.
Best wishes, Jeff |
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kami
USA
920 Posts |
Posted - Jan 24 2013 : 11:51:39 AM
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Thanks Jeff. We are not discussing the same thing here I'm afraid. My post above clarifies what I'm trying to say.
Build away!! More power to you!
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parvati9
USA
587 Posts |
Posted - Jan 24 2013 : 2:07:46 PM
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Quickly read through this topic, now reading 'Yogic Christianity' started by Kirtanman (from which the topic under discussion originates). There is quite a bit online about the light body mostly new age woo, some of it may resonate with members here. Other terms for the light body may include but not limited to:
subtle body, etheric body, divine body, immortal body, body of divine glory, bioplasmic body, supracelestial body, diamond body, body of bliss, sukshma sarina or linga sharira, and merkaba.
Still researching, but atm I'm of the opinion that the light body is the vehicle of consciousness with which one passes from life to life and it most probably constitutes our natural state. Given that our natural state is the template and raw material from which the rainbow or light body evolves through various practices and/or focused intent.
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Edited by - parvati9 on Jan 25 2013 2:08:24 PM |
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Jan 28 2013 : 12:41:56 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by parvati9
Still researching, but atm I'm of the opinion that the light body is the vehicle of consciousness with which one passes from life to life and it most probably constitutes our natural state. Given that our natural state is the template and raw material from which the rainbow or light body evolves through various practices and/or focused intent.
Seems like a pretty good overall description. In my opinion, the only slight difference is that the rainbow body evolves with the "letting go" of issues and obstructions. Practices and focused intent can also "create" issues/obstructions.
Best, Jeff |
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Christi
United Kingdom
4364 Posts |
Posted - Jan 28 2013 : 1:36:29 PM
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Hi Parvati and Jeff,
This is a tricky one, as the boundaries are not always clear. "Doing nothing" is also a doing. "Letting go" is also a spiritual practice. Another problem is that if we do nothing at all, the most likely outcome is that we will just carry on as we are. My own experience is that through spiritual practice, obstructions are cleared, the subtle body is purified and the letting go into bliss happens automatically without any intent.
At the point of building the body of light, everything begins to melt down into the heart and we begin to live and function from there as divine love. So that too is a non-doing, and a letting go into stillness. But without spiritual practices at the helm, none of it is likely to happen, or if it does happen, it could take a very long time.
Christi |
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parvati9
USA
587 Posts |
Posted - Jan 29 2013 : 12:43:46 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by jeff
Seems like a pretty good overall description. In my opinion, the only slight difference is that the rainbow body evolves with the "letting go" of issues and obstructions. Practices and focused intent can also "create" issues/obstructions.
Well said Jeff.
One needs to be cognizant of the very real possibility of inadvertently creating more issues and obstructions in spite of our best efforts at removing them.
But is this unveiling of the light body - after letting go of issues and obstructions - all there is to it?
I think we're talking about more than that; transmuting the physical body as well, infusing it with light at the cellular level.
For the practical operation of the light body, it is provided with a covering which is our physical body, its vehicle. The way I see it, our physical body is what gives the subtle body its shape and form. Otherwise the subtle body, independent of the physical body, may very well be a luminous amorphous blob of energy/light.
In order to operate effectively as a sovereign unit in and of itself - I think the light body requires an outer vehicle that will provide it with form, a far more refined and less dense version of the physical body perhaps.
The real question for me is not how to let go of issues and obstructions without creating further impediments, albeit definitely a crucial part of the process....but rather how is the physical body transmuted at the cellular level into an appropriate vehicle for the light body to function with at a higher level? In addressing that question, I suggested that a kind of focused intent or practice may be required for an alchemical transmutation or shift to a higher frequency/dimension.
Do you think it kinda sorta just happens as we let go of more and more issues and obstructions?
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Edited by - parvati9 on Jan 29 2013 1:10:06 PM |
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Jan 29 2013 : 1:16:26 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by parvati9
The real question for me is not how to let go of issues and obstructions without creating further impediments, albeit definitely a crucial part of the process....but rather how is the physical body transmuted at the cellular level into an appropriate vehicle for the light body to function with at a higher level? In addressing that question, I suggested that a kind of focused intent or practice may be required for an alchemical transmutation or shift to a higher frequency/dimension.
Do you think it kinda sorta just happens as we let go of more and more issues and obstructions?
Hi Parvati,
From my perspective, that is an excellent and very profound question. Also, very timely as I had been pondering something similar. I think it depends on the tradition and the perspective of how "the movie ends".
Since this is a thread on Buddhism...
I would say that the Lankavatara Sutra (Chapter 8) speaks directly to that question (and agrees with you about the "intent")...
"The exalted state of self-realisation as it relates to an earnest disciple is a state of mental concentration in which he seeks to indentify himself with Noble Wisdom. In that effort he must seek to annihilate all vagrant thoughts and notions belonging to the externality of things, and all ideas of individuality and generality, of suffering and impermanence, and cultivate the noblest ideas of egolessness and emptiness and imagelessness; thus will he attain a realisation of truth that is free from passion and is ever serene. When this active effort at mental concentration is succesful it is followed by a more passive, receptive state of Samadhi in which the earnest disciple will enter into the blissful abode of Noble Wisdom and experience its consumations in the transformations of Samapatti. This is an earnest disciple's first experience of the exalted state of realisation, but as yet there is no discarding of habit-energy nor escaping from the transformation of death.
Having attained this exalted and blissful state of realisation as far as it can be attained by disciples, the Bodhisattva must not give himself up to the enjoyment of its bliss, for that would mean cessation, but should think compassionately of other beings and keep ever fresh his original vows; he should never let himself rest nor exert himself in the bliss of the Samadhis.
But, Mahamati, as earnest disciples go on trying to advance on the path that leads to full realisation."
What are your thoughts on the topic?
Best, Jeff
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parvati9
USA
587 Posts |
Posted - Jan 29 2013 : 4:07:19 PM
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Hi Jeff,
Could you simplify, clarify and say what this passage means or what value you derive from it? My commentary is without purpose when the meaningful value of the passage remains obscure to me.
Mindfulness I get. But much of Buddism has to be translated or explained in simple terms for me to get it.
(edited for clarity and brevity)
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Edited by - parvati9 on Jan 29 2013 6:23:28 PM |
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Jan 29 2013 : 8:08:58 PM
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Hi Parvati,
I apologize for just providing the "raw" Buddhist text and be happy to try to paraphrase.
In Buddhism, the highest realization is known as the Noble Wisdoms (sometimes called the 3 wisdoms). It is beyond the "Void" and sort of where the Buddhas "hang out". The text states that after you go beyond the mind, you first come to a state of bliss where you have not yet released all of your obstructions. And that this state of bliss is so powerful (and nice) that many stay there. Staying there leads to "ceasation" or a return to void/nothingness. The text maintains that you must maintain your "intent/remember your vow" to make it to "buddhahood".
In essence, it states that there is a "choice" or "intent must be maintained" to continue on. Therefore, I said it supported your earlier point. Many traditions believe that there is only "one" or "oneness" and nothing beyond it. Hence, they believe there is no point to the rainbow body (ongoing obstruction removal) concept.
Hope that helps.
Best, Jeff |
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parvati9
USA
587 Posts |
Posted - Jan 29 2013 : 9:35:55 PM
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Hi Jeff,
Thankyou, much better . Formal Buddhism is apparently written in a secret code. It helps to have the translation. 
So you are interpreting the vow to mean intent. Very interesting.
You have also translated rainbow body as ongoing obstruction removal. I still think it is more than that. Letting go of obstructions and issues is probably the most important part of it. To me, that is the first step. It may be the only step. But I doubt it. My intuition tells me there is more to it than that. So maybe the rest of it is indicated by the vow? This is like a foreign language, I'm at a serious disadvantage due to lack of familiarity with the language.
I don't get it yet. 1)beyond mind.. 2)bliss.. 3)void.. 4)noble wisdoms ...is that correct? If you remain in bliss, how can you return to the void when it is the next higher stage? Or does it fork at bliss i.e., if you try to stay in bliss, you go to the void. But if you remain unattached and remember your intent (vow), you go to the noble wisdom stage?
What kind of vow is the text referring to? A vow is not only a focused intent, it is a commitment.
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Edited by - parvati9 on Jan 30 2013 12:58:44 AM |
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parvati9
USA
587 Posts |
Posted - Jan 29 2013 : 10:04:13 PM
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My definition of commitment: A sustained promise. A declaration, pledge, bond or union; to be held accountable to a specific purpose. Commitment also implies perseverance, not giving up until one's promise has been fulfilled.
Dictionary definition of persevere: To persist in a state, enterprise or undertaking in spite of counter influences, opposition or discouragement.
Dictionary definition of commit: To bring about, obligate, bind, to pledge or assign to some particular course or use.
Dictionary definition of commitment: An agreement or pledge to do something in the future, the state of being obligated.
My definition of vow: A solemn oath
Dictionary definition of vow: A solemn promise or assertion, one by which a person binds himself to an act, service or condition. To bind or consecrate.
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Edited by - parvati9 on Jan 30 2013 01:34:30 AM |
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Jan 30 2013 : 08:48:11 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by parvati9
Hi Jeff,
Thankyou, much better . Formal Buddhism is apparently written in a secret code. It helps to have the translation.
So you are interpreting the vow to mean intent. Very interesting.
You have also translated rainbow body as ongoing obstruction removal. I still think it is more than that. Letting go of obstructions and issues is probably the most important part of it. To me, that is the first step. It may be the only step. But I doubt it. My intuition tells me there is more to it than that. So maybe the rest of it is indicated by the vow? This is like a foreign language, I'm at a serious disadvantage due to lack of familiarity with the language.
I don't get it yet. 1)beyond mind.. 2)bliss.. 3)void.. 4)noble wisdoms ...is that correct? If you remain in bliss, how can you return to the void when it is the next higher stage? Or does it fork at bliss i.e., if you try to stay in bliss, you go to the void. But if you remain unattached and remember your intent (vow), you go to the noble wisdom stage?
What kind of vow is the text referring to? A vow is not only a focused intent, it is a commitment.
Hi Parvati,
The Buddhist "vow" is essentially a commitment is work for the ongoing "enlightenment" of all sentient beings. Buddhists believe that "everyone" needs to be enlightened for there to be complete enlightenment. A Buddha is sometimes described as on who holds open the "door".
I completely agree that there is a real physical transformation of the body and did not mean to imply otherwise. Also, Buddhist "completion stage" practices do consist of having transformational "intent". Depending on your perspective, the intent could be described as either "obstruction removal" or transformation. I just tend to think of it as obstruction removal. If you are interested, I am happy to discuss more about the component practices and their "purpose".
The order is a little different than you describe. If you are interested in the specific stages, take a look at the stages of progression thread. We are sort of discussing from 8 on up.
Best, Jeff
p.s. Also, there may be some confusion on the definition of "mind". In Buddhism, it means more like "universal mind". Their perspective is that everything that we call "reality" is just an apparent reality in "universal mind". So, for a Buddhist, seeing beyond mind is percieving beyond reality, time and space. The concept is sort of like the "Matrix" movies.
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Edited by - jeff on Jan 30 2013 09:55:21 AM |
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Jan 30 2013 : 11:02:52 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by parvati9
My definition of commitment: A sustained promise. A declaration, pledge, bond or union; to be held accountable to a specific purpose. Commitment also implies perseverance, not giving up until one's promise has been fulfilled.
...
Hi Parvati,
Below is a specific Sutra (Lankavatra - Chapter XI) reference to the "vow" and it's importance. This might also help with your question...
The Bodhisattva feels within himself the awakening of a great heart of compassion and he utters his ten original vows:
To honor and serve all Buddhas; to spread the knowledge and practice of the Dharma; to welcome all coming Buddhas; to practice the six Paramitas; to persuade all beings to embrace the Dharma; to attain a perfect understanding of the universe; to attain a perfect understanding of the mutuality of all beings; to attain perfect self-realization of the oneness of all the Buddhas and Tathagatas in self-nature, purpose and resources; to become acquainted with all skillful means for the carrying out of these vows for the emancipation of all beings; to realize supreme enlightenment through the perfect self-realization of Noble Wisdom, ascending the stages and entering Tathagatahood.
In the spirit of these vows the Bodhisattva gradually ascends the stages to the sixth. All earnest disciples, masters and Arhats have ascended thus far, but being enchanted by the bliss of the Samadhis and not being supported by the power of the Buddhas, they pass to their Nirvana. The same fate would befall the Bodhisattvas except for their sustaining power of the Buddhas, by that they are enabled to refuse to enter Nirvana until all beings can enter Nirvana with them.
The Tathagatas point out to them the virtues of Buddhahood which are beyond the conception of the intellectual-mind, and they encourage and strengthen the Bodhisattvas not to give in to the enchantment of the bliss of the Samadhis, but to press on to further advancement along the stages. If the Bodhisattvas had entered Nirvana at this stage, and they would have done so without the sustaining power of the Buddhas, there would have been the cessation of all things and the family of the Tathagatas would have become extinct.
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Christi
United Kingdom
4364 Posts |
Posted - Jan 30 2013 : 3:28:41 PM
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Hi Jeff,
Thanks for clarifying that. A similar thing to the Bodhisattva vow is found in AYP yoga. It is here in lesson 329
"As we are approaching individual enlightenment, we begin to know ourselves to be all that is around us. Then the condition of consciousness of all who are around us is seen to be our condition. So we will not be fully enlightened until everyone is enlightened. This is why so-called enlightened people continue to work for the benefit of all. Their liberation will not be fulfilled until everyone’s is. And neither shall ours."
The only difference is that in Yoga, no vow is taken. It is simply a recognition that comes as the sense of individuality is transcended and one's individual condition is seen to be not separate from that of all beings. So there is a natural flowing from the heart into service. The body of light is a part of that.
Christi |
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parvati9
USA
587 Posts |
Posted - Jan 30 2013 : 4:09:18 PM
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Hi Jeff,
A vow is a very special and unique type of focused intent. While a vow may have sacred or consecrated elements to it, in the case of classic Buddhist texts and doctrine, these often remain elusive, mysterious, nebulous (or too complex for simple minds ). As opposed to being clear and specific.
Clear, specific and easy to grasp is what I'm aiming for and what was meant by focused intent. So while I heartily endorse any and all earnest efforts to interface with the Divine, for myself I choose to employ guidance and/or methods which can be easily understood. (As would most of us, I think)
The sustaining power of the Buddhas (or one's divine consciousness of choice) would perhaps be reflected in the sustaining power of one's commitment. I would call this bhakti, the 2-way transmission, flow and exchange of spiritual energies. Love and devotion. For me, this is a vital ingredient of endeavors to realize and/or build the rainbow body.
A vow is for the duration. A commitment is for the duration. All vows are commitments. But not all commitments are vows.
Focused intent need engage neither commitment nor vow. Focused intent, imo, is merely being very clear and precise about the use of one's energy in achieving one's purpose or goal. Or the desires of one's heart. I believe that bhakti, or passion in one's heart and soul, must be harnessed and utilized in order to facilitate the type of endeavors being contemplated in this thread.
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jeff
USA
971 Posts |
Posted - Jan 30 2013 : 4:57:25 PM
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Hi Parvati,
I may have missed the "intent" of your previous post. I did not realize the detail of your distinctions in the word usage. I was only providing sutra that effectively agrees that "more than just obstruction removal" as part of the process and not attempted to differentiate between intent and vow.
I completely agree that any such endeavor is one for the heart and soul and not something of the mind (or ego). Buddhist completion stage practices cannot even be started until the mind is "quiet".
On the sustaining point, in Buddhism, the "sustaining power of the Buddhas" is a "one way" thing, more of an "outflowing" or "love" to help others become Buddhas. They "keep the lights on" whether we pay attention or not and are to be "emulated" rather than "devoted to".
Best, Jeff |
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parvati9
USA
587 Posts |
Posted - Jan 30 2013 : 7:00:34 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by jeff
Hi Parvati,
I may have missed the "intent" of your previous post. I did not realize the detail of your distinctions in the word usage. I was only providing sutra that effectively agrees that "more than just obstruction removal" as part of the process and not attempted to differentiate between intent and vow.
I completely agree that any such endeavor is one for the heart and soul and not something of the mind (or ego). Buddhist completion stage practices cannot even be started until the mind is "quiet".
On the sustaining point, in Buddhism, the "sustaining power of the Buddhas" is a "one way" thing, more of an "outflowing" or "love" to help others become Buddhas. They "keep the lights on" whether we pay attention or not and are to be "emulated" rather than "devoted to".
Best, Jeff
Hi Jeff,
With regard to the "one way" thing...it seems you have interpreted the text correctly.
My mistake, with reference to reading the text, was assuming that the receptivity and response of the spiritual seeker is paramount. When a spiritual seeker sends a return current to the enlightened master or buddha, it is a supremely important part of the process imo.
Indeed, it would seem that this building and/or realizing of the rainbow body is virtually impossible without some kind of ongoing divine assistance or support. Guidance and encouragement from the divine (enlightened ones), questions and gratitude from the spiritual seeker. Thus a 2-way energy exchange. But hey we can agree to disagree can't we.
As for love, devotion and emulation...it's all good. If you resonate with emulation and not devotion, that's cool.. Imo emulation is a powerful form of bhakti. If you object to the term bhakti that's cool too.
As for my generic usage of focused intent, I didn't mean to be contentious, only wanted to be understood. Please forgive if I caused offense.
parvati
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Buddhism, The Rainbow Body and Enlightenment
