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Konchok Ísel Dorje

USA
545 Posts

Posted - Sep 09 2009 :  10:12:19 AM  Show Profile  Visit Konchok Ísel Dorje's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by chinna

quote:
Originally posted by Konchok Ísel Dorje

Illusory body yoga doesn't appear to have a correlate in any other system and is a step beyond the means of disposing of the mind-self.



The illusory I-am-the-body idea is just another aspect of the illusory mind-self, indeed is its principle hook. Jnana yogis always point to the illusory I-am-the-body idea, though as with all their teaching do not tend to separate bits out as separate yogas. It's all jnana yoga.

Perhaps you mean something else?

chinna



No you don't understand illusory body yoga; aka magical body yoga, aka mind-made body... At least, it is not an "I am the body" idea. The illusory body yoga is a fruit of complete penetration of voidness and the seeker's aspiration for liberation. It is a siddhi, and the formal practice of annuttara tantra yoga. More importantly, it is the fulfillment of the seeker's wish to be enlightened, by seeker, I don't mean the one with the magical mind-made body...

Edited by - Konchok Ísel Dorje on Sep 09 2009 10:26:11 AM
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chinna

United Kingdom
241 Posts

Posted - Sep 09 2009 :  11:52:28 AM  Show Profile  Visit chinna's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
By mind-made body, do you refer to the astral body?

Jnana would say this is also an I-am-the-body idea, with the implication that the real self is formless, beyond I am-x-y-z ideas.

Buddhism might say that formlessness is as much an 'acquisition' as the bodies, with the implication that nothing is excluded from elightenment. But it would be misleading to claim that as a difference. Jnana's insistence on formlessness is a tactical move, because in its realisation, 'beyond bodies', we are returned to nothing-excluded, forms and formlessness, bliss and emptiness, not-two. And this is transformational.

Remember the experience I mentioned about the jnani who briefly served as my shiksha guru - his realisation brought siddhis, for example subtly appearing all over the place 'for the liberation of all beings'. The same was true of Ramana and Nisargadatta. All three eschewed any focus on siddhis (a condition, I believe, of siddhis arising). Once in non-dual awareness, all manner of things are possible.

So I am sure you are right, there are specific practices and significances given on the annuttara path which are not mirrored in other traditions - all paths have their special characteristics. But I remain to be convinced that it represents 'a step beyond'.

Perhaps if you can unpack further the specific practices, and what they are intended to achieve?

chinna

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Konchok Ísel Dorje

USA
545 Posts

Posted - Sep 09 2009 :  12:06:49 PM  Show Profile  Visit Konchok Ísel Dorje's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Chinna, I'm sorry I'm not trying to convince you it is a step beyond. You are helping me understand the differing characteristics. The astral body is already present. The mind-made body/will body, etc., appears to refer to something non-compounded arising as the fruit of the suffering of sentient beings and their aspiration for liberation.

Though what you say about formlessness/bliss is a step behind. The Unbinding, emptiness of emptiness, themelessness, these are a feature of the Buddha's teachings which is beyond the bliss/emptiness, emptiness/perceptions.
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chinna

United Kingdom
241 Posts

Posted - Sep 09 2009 :  1:10:38 PM  Show Profile  Visit chinna's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Konchok Ísel Dorje

Chinna, I'm sorry I'm not trying to convince you it is a step beyond. You are helping me understand the differing characteristics. The astral body is already present. The mind-made body/will body, etc., appears to refer to something non-compounded arising as the fruit of the suffering of sentient beings and their aspiration for liberation.

Though what you say about formlessness/bliss is a step behind. The Unbinding, emptiness of emptiness, themelessness, these are a feature of the Buddha's teachings which is beyond the bliss/emptiness, emptiness/perceptions.



That body sounds like Jesus - 'unbegotten, unmade, etc etc', willed for the sake of suffering humanity.

chinna
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Konchok Ísel Dorje

USA
545 Posts

Posted - Sep 09 2009 :  1:32:41 PM  Show Profile  Visit Konchok Ísel Dorje's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by chinna

quote:
Originally posted by Konchok Ísel Dorje

Chinna, I'm sorry I'm not trying to convince you it is a step beyond. You are helping me understand the differing characteristics. The astral body is already present. The mind-made body/will body, etc., appears to refer to something non-compounded arising as the fruit of the suffering of sentient beings and their aspiration for liberation.

Though what you say about formlessness/bliss is a step behind. The Unbinding, emptiness of emptiness, themelessness, these are a feature of the Buddha's teachings which is beyond the bliss/emptiness, emptiness/perceptions.



That body sounds like Jesus - 'unbegotten, unmade, etc etc', willed for the sake of suffering humanity.

chinna



That's right, except for it sounds like the Buddha, because Jesus didn't teach the method and view of voidness/emptiness so his followers didn't learn to walk on water and raise the dead (though his disciples did). The methods are alive in another lineage.

Buddhahood is specifically described as the fruit of the aspiration of suffering beings to be liberated and established in joy. In other words, the final siddhi, Buddhahood, is a dependently arisen phenomena of pure wisdom that benefits sufferers.

Edited by - Konchok Ísel Dorje on Sep 09 2009 1:40:37 PM
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chinna

United Kingdom
241 Posts

Posted - Sep 09 2009 :  2:57:05 PM  Show Profile  Visit chinna's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Konchok Ísel Dorje

That's right, except for it sounds like the Buddha, because Jesus didn't teach the method and view of voidness/emptiness so his followers didn't learn to walk on water and raise the dead (though his disciples did). The methods are alive in another lineage.

Buddhahood is specifically described as the fruit of the aspiration of suffering beings to be liberated and established in joy. In other words, the final siddhi, Buddhahood, is a dependently arisen phenomena of pure wisdom that benefits sufferers.



Are there any present-day Buddhists walking on water and raising the dead, within the physical world, ie beyond the metaphorical, and beyond the siddhi phenomena in the 'subtle realms' which we encounter? Wouldn't we know? I'd be cautious about such claims taking place 'in the Himalayas' or some such. All the most impressive Buddhist teachers seem to die of cancer and heart disease like anyone else, and at the same sort of ages. People have inexplicable cures in all traditions, associated with strong faith.

chinna
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Konchok Ísel Dorje

USA
545 Posts

Posted - Sep 09 2009 :  3:27:53 PM  Show Profile  Visit Konchok Ísel Dorje's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by chinna

quote:
Originally posted by Konchok Ísel Dorje

That's right, except for it sounds like the Buddha, because Jesus didn't teach the method and view of voidness/emptiness so his followers didn't learn to walk on water and raise the dead (though his disciples did). The methods are alive in another lineage.

Buddhahood is specifically described as the fruit of the aspiration of suffering beings to be liberated and established in joy. In other words, the final siddhi, Buddhahood, is a dependently arisen phenomena of pure wisdom that benefits sufferers.



Are there any present-day Buddhists walking on water and raising the dead, within the physical world, ie beyond the metaphorical, and beyond the siddhi phenomena in the 'subtle realms' which we encounter? Wouldn't we know? I'd be cautious about such claims taking place 'in the Himalayas' or some such. All the most impressive Buddhist teachers seem to die of cancer and heart disease like anyone else, and at the same sort of ages. People have inexplicable cures in all traditions, associated with strong faith.

chinna



There are numerous first hand accounts of people dissolving into thin air in the last decade or so. That aspect of "buddhahood" is well accounted for.

I personally have seen miraculous flower blossoming and healing. My lama says he has observed one old master flying through the air. I have his picture on my altar. He also knew this master went without food for 35 years.

One with faith can accumulate the karma to meet such masters. It does tend to require a bit of renunciation of the world to meet them.

The best account is of Milarepa. Few yogis have ever matched him.

Edited by - Konchok Ísel Dorje on Sep 09 2009 3:30:04 PM
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alwayson2

USA
546 Posts

Posted - Sep 09 2009 :  4:59:09 PM  Show Profile  Visit alwayson2's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Osel did you say in a post somewhere above that emptiness is voidness? If you believe that, you need to start an in depth study of Madhyamaka.

As far as I understand, the Dalai Lama defines emptiness simply as the discrepancy of how phenomenon appear and how they really are. This applies even to the Buddhas by the way.

Edited by - alwayson2 on Sep 09 2009 5:06:09 PM
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Konchok Ísel Dorje

USA
545 Posts

Posted - Sep 09 2009 :  5:41:19 PM  Show Profile  Visit Konchok Ísel Dorje's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by alwayson2

Osel did you say in a post somewhere above that emptiness is voidness? If you believe that, you need to start an in depth study of Madhyamaka.

As far as I understand, the Dalai Lama defines emptiness simply as the discrepancy of how phenomenon appear and how they really are. This applies even to the Buddhas by the way.



I'm not equating voidness and emptiness. They are both the Buddha's teachings. (I'm trying to stick with Theravada usages, because those tend be more widely used on this forum).

Edited by - Konchok Ísel Dorje on Sep 09 2009 5:43:28 PM
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machart

USA
342 Posts

Posted - Sep 09 2009 :  9:19:52 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Konchok ´┐Żsel Dorje

I personally have seen miraculous flower blossoming and healing. My lama says he has observed one old master flying through the air. I have his picture on my altar. He also knew this master went without food for 35 years.





One person helping another in a time of need is way more impressive than these supposed siddhis...IMHO ...
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Konchok Ísel Dorje

USA
545 Posts

Posted - Sep 09 2009 :  11:26:27 PM  Show Profile  Visit Konchok Ísel Dorje's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by machart

quote:
Originally posted by Konchok ´┐Żsel Dorje

I personally have seen miraculous flower blossoming and healing. My lama says he has observed one old master flying through the air. I have his picture on my altar. He also knew this master went without food for 35 years.





One person helping another in a time of need is way more impressive than these supposed siddhis...IMHO ...



Miracles can help the faithless have faith...
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machart

USA
342 Posts

Posted - Sep 10 2009 :  11:37:09 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Miracles happen everyday....outpouring divine love for your neighbor...you don't need to levitate or fly through the air to do that...
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Konchok Ísel Dorje

USA
545 Posts

Posted - Sep 11 2009 :  01:46:44 AM  Show Profile  Visit Konchok Ísel Dorje's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by machart

Miracles happen everyday....outpouring divine love for your neighbor...you don't need to levitate or fly through the air to do that...



That's a good point. Amen.
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Christi

United Kingdom
3893 Posts

Posted - Jan 19 2013 :  09:47:16 AM  Show Profile  Visit Christi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi all,

I've now begun the process of creating the rainbow body. I want to document what happens here as I am not aware that this process has ever been documented.

I'm still in the early stages. So far I have worked out that somehow the subtle nervous system seems to feed from the amrita as it drips from the crown chakra and the ajna chakra. It also seems as if, to a certain extent, the physical body is sustained by the amrita as well. The rainbow body in yoga is called divya deha, or body of light.

That's all I can say for now. I'll update here as things happen (if anything does).

Christi
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jeff

USA
971 Posts

Posted - Jan 19 2013 :  12:54:53 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Christi,

I am very interested to hear your ongoing developments. What are you using for practices in the formation of the rainbow body? Are you going to use the Buddhist "completion stage" practices?

Best wishes, Jeff
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Christi

United Kingdom
3893 Posts

Posted - Jan 19 2013 :  6:16:35 PM  Show Profile  Visit Christi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Jeff,

No, I'm not using the completion stage practices. I use AYP practices: spinal breathing pranayama, deep meditation, siddhasana, sambhavi mudra, brahmachari and some of the crown practices. I also use asana practice. At the moment I am relying on the amrita to do the work in terms of the creation of the divya deha.

Christi
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jeff

USA
971 Posts

Posted - Jan 19 2013 :  6:59:28 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Christi,

Thanks. So your perspective is the that the "body of light" is a physical (amrita) manifestation in "time"? And not the Buddhist interpretation of Sambhogakaya of outside "space and time". And hence, not the need for a living guru/Buddha or completion stage practices that "connect" one to the "Sambhogakaya based" primordial Buddhas/Divine Beings?

Thanks again, Jeff
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Christi

United Kingdom
3893 Posts

Posted - Jan 20 2013 :  05:46:48 AM  Show Profile  Visit Christi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Jeff,

Amrita is essentially non-physical in nature being formed of condensed prana (soma). As I understand it, the body of light is also pranic in nature. How this relates to space and time is something that I think cannot be understood, or conceived of from a time-bound perspective. I also think the relationship between the sambhogakaya and the dharmakaya is not one that can be understood except through direct experience.

The word guru means "teacher" and the word Buddha means "one who is awake". So a living guru/ Buddha is a living teacher who is awake. Luckily, all of us here on the forum have one of those.

Christi
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jeff

USA
971 Posts

Posted - Jan 20 2013 :  11:10:59 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Christi,

We may be talking "apples and oranges" here. As the living Tibetan Dzogchen master/teacher Chogyal Namkai Norbu describes (Dzogchen: The Self-Perfected State) about the "body of light"...

"This particular realization which was actually accomplished by masters such as Padmasambhava and Vimalamitra, and by Tapihritsa in the Bon tradition, involves the transference or reabsorption, without a physical death, of the material body into the luminous essence of the elements, in the course of which realization the physical body disappears from the sight of ordinary beings."
...
"This realization depends not only on the specific methods found in Dzogchen, but also primarily on the function of the transmission from the master."
...
"The direct transmission comes about through the unification of the state of the master with that of the disciple."

The "body of light" is the full integration in/with Dharmakaya. I would also agree the relationship sambhogakaya and dharmakaya must be understood through direct experience/realization.

Best wishes, Jeff
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Christi

United Kingdom
3893 Posts

Posted - Jan 20 2013 :  12:45:22 PM  Show Profile  Visit Christi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Jeff,

At the moment my physical body is still within the sight of ordinary beings (and extraordinary beings too). If I reach a point where it is not, I promise I will let you know.

I suspect however, that the quotes you mention refer to pretty advanced stages of the development of the body of light and there is a lot of groundwork that has to be done to reach that stage. I'm a long way off that.

As for the development of the body of light being dependent on the practices of Dzogchen, that is something you find quite a lot in spiritual traditions, where someone will say that you can only reach such-and-such a state through the practices of a certain religion, or through Christ or whatever. In my experience it usually turns out not to be the case.

Christi
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maheswari

Lebanon
2499 Posts

Posted - Jan 20 2013 :  1:54:23 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
what is the use of developing the rainbow body?
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jeff

USA
971 Posts

Posted - Jan 20 2013 :  1:56:07 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Christi,

Building the "body of light" starts with (and is part of) the recognition/realization of the "light". One begins to realize the "light" after one has reached the point of clear (or quiet) mind. Clear mind is probably best described as when living daily life and meditation are the same thing and when one is not thinking, the mind is quiet with no thoughts passing by (e.g. No anger or fears).

Also, the Norbu quote was not saying that only Dzogchen works, but that Dzogchen has the necessary practices and that "transmission" is necessary/very important for the realization. Buddhism, Bon & gnostic Christianity would also agree with the need for transmission.

Best regards, Jeff
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jeff

USA
971 Posts

Posted - Jan 20 2013 :  3:14:55 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by maheswari

what is the use of developing the rainbow body?



Hi Maheswari,

Buddhism (like many traditions) has various levels of "realization". The "rainbow body" is essentially the highest in Buddhism. It is being a "full" Buddha. After "attaining" one continues on so that they can better "help" all sentient beings to realize the truth. It is also the sign of a mahasiddha, so kind of like being realized but also with "powers/siddhis".

In gnostic Christian/Sufi traditions, it is the difference between realizing the "soul" (Saint) and being a true/full "Prophet" (one with God).

Best wishes, Jeff
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Christi

United Kingdom
3893 Posts

Posted - Jan 20 2013 :  6:36:10 PM  Show Profile  Visit Christi's Homepage  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by jeff

Hi Christi,

Building the "body of light" starts with (and is part of) the recognition/realization of the "light". One begins to realize the "light" after one has reached the point of clear (or quiet) mind. Clear mind is probably best described as when living daily life and meditation are the same thing and when one is not thinking, the mind is quiet with no thoughts passing by (e.g. No anger or fears).

Also, the Norbu quote was not saying that only Dzogchen works, but that Dzogchen has the necessary practices and that "transmission" is necessary/very important for the realization. Buddhism, Bon & gnostic Christianity would also agree with the need for transmission.

Best regards, Jeff



Hi Jeff,

I'm just wondering- have you been through this process yourself, or is this information based on what you have heard or read?

Christi
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jeff

USA
971 Posts

Posted - Jan 20 2013 :  7:21:02 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote  Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Christi

quote:
Originally posted by jeff

Hi Christi,

Building the "body of light" starts with (and is part of) the recognition/realization of the "light". One begins to realize the "light" after one has reached the point of clear (or quiet) mind. Clear mind is probably best described as when living daily life and meditation are the same thing and when one is not thinking, the mind is quiet with no thoughts passing by (e.g. No anger or fears).

Also, the Norbu quote was not saying that only Dzogchen works, but that Dzogchen has the necessary practices and that "transmission" is necessary/very important for the realization. Buddhism, Bon & gnostic Christianity would also agree with the need for transmission.

Best regards, Jeff



Hi Jeff,

I'm just wondering- have you been through this process yourself, or is this information based on what you have heard or read?

Christi



Hi Christi,

It is a combination of both. The above description has been my experience. Also, I personally know of three others that I keep in contact with who are in various stages of building the light body, but no one is complete. One, who started out Buddhist, seems to be the "farthest" along and has been working on it for about three lives (he has full memory of all past lives). For anyone who is sensitive to energy, a forming light body is very noticable. If one has the ability to "see" on the astral level, the light body will be overwhelming bright because the mind is not able to "translate" the energy/light levels.

Best, Jeff
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